6. What assessment has the Welsh Government has the made of the extent to which the UK Government's legislative programme touches on devolved areas? OQ57065

Thank you for the question. The cumulative impact of current UK Government Bills on the devolution settlement is very concerning. The Welsh Government is working with the UK Government to seek changes to those Bills that do not respect devolution.

Thank you for that response. As you know, there's been a substantial increase in the number of LCMs this term. These laws won't be made bilingually, they won't be accessible and, even worse, they won't be fully scrutinised by this Senedd. So, what discussions have you had with the UK Government and your fellow Ministers here to ensure that this increase in LCMs doesn't continue?

Well, wherever UK Government legislation arises that has an impact on devolution or has a connection with devolved responsibilities, the issue of laying legislative consent memoranda arises. And, of course, these are an obligation; they're not a choice. I think the question that the Member rightly I think is getting at, though, is of course the nature of that legislation and the extent to which it intrudes or undermines the devolved responsibilities. And, of course, it also raises, doesn't it, the issue of the impact of the Sewel convention, which has been under much strain.

I will perhaps reiterate some of the points that have already been made, and one is that we have laid LCMs in relation to 14 bills. For seven of those bills, we have indicated that we are not able to recommend consent. We do carry on working with the UK Government in respect of making changes that might enable consent to be given. Those discussions occur between me and my counterpart in the UK Government. They also occur in connection with individual Ministers and legislation in their particular portfolios, and, of course, there is regular ongoing engagement between the officials of the Governments of the four nations of the United Kingdom.

Perhaps to repeat, the approach we have, which is our general principle, is that primary legislation within the Senedd's competence should be made and amended by the Senedd. We do, from time to time, have to take a pragmatic approach to using UK Government legislation to achieve our policy objectives where the opportunity to do so arises, and where it is sensible and advantageous to do so and it is in the interest of the people of Wales to do so.

But it's no accident, is it, Counsel General—I'm very grateful to Mabon ap Gwynfor for raising this absolutely important subject this afternoon—that we've seen a succession of LCMs that have no need for legislative consent, except that the UK Government want to erode the powers of this place, want to erode the competence of Welsh democracy, and want to ensure that our freedom to legislate is constrained as much as they're able to do so without simply legislating this place out of existence? And does this again ensure that there is more justification than ever for the statement you made yesterday on a constitutional convention to ensure that we have a constitution that we can be sure of? We've already seen changes to the settlement since we were elected six months ago. It's an intolerable intrusion on our democracy, and what we need to be able to do is to have a settlement that strengthens Welsh democracy and does not undermine Welsh democracy. 

I thank the Member for those comments and I think he's absolutely right; it is no accident, in my view. When you look at the cumulative effect and the combination of legislation in particular areas, it seems to me there is a concerted strategy. I think it's a strategy that arises from the fact that we have a Government that basically dislikes devolution and thinks devolution was a mistake. What message does—[Interruption.] What message—[Interruption.] What message—? Well, to whoever says, 'What rubbish, we would only have to quote back to him the comments of the Prime Minister that were made and have been well published, and that he is well aware of. I think the difficulty comes from not only believing that devolution was a mistake—

Allow the Minister to carry on with his response, please, in some quiet.

—not only that devolution was a mistake, but, actually, where you have a Government that fails to recognise the actual strength that comes from the decentralisation of power and the empowerment of people and communities, and how devolution is good for democracy, and it is a pity that we currently have a Prime Minister who has not only made those comments, but has never properly retracted those comments either. I take that to mean that he stands by those comments, and those are the comments that are guidance that go out to the remaining members of the Cabinet.