We'll move on to our next item on the agenda, the debate on a Member's legislative proposal—an employee ownership Bill. I call on Huw Irranca-Davies to move the motion.

Motion NDM7722 Huw Irranca-Davies

Supported by Joyce Watson, Luke Fletcher, Sarah Murphy, Vikki Howells

To propose that the Senedd:

1. Notes a proposal for an employee ownership Bill on promoting worker buy-outs and employee ownership

2. Notes that the purpose of this Bill would be to:

a) legislate for a Welsh Marcora law to provide the legal framework, financial support and advice for worker buy-outs;

b) put in place a statutory duty to double the size of the co-operative economy by 2026 and to actively promote employee-ownership and worker buy-outs;

c) provide financial support and advice for workers to buy out all or part of a business facing closure or down-sizing and to establish a workers co-operative;

d) ensure that all companies in Wales in receipt of public funding or part of the social partnership and ethical procurement chains agree to the principles of worker buy-outs and employee ownership.

Motion moved.

Diolch, Dirprwy Llwydd, and today we’ll explore not only what more can be done to promote employee ownership in Wales, but whether indeed we can introduce a workable Welsh Marcora law. And my thanks to the Business Committee for selecting this proposal for debate and to other Members of the Senedd for supporting the request. I’m looking forward to hearing the contributions today and the Minister’s response.

Now, I declare my interest as a Co-operative Party member and chair of the Senedd Co-operative Party group too. Yet this proposal, I know, has the support in other parties too and in the wider co-operative movement itself, and I look forward to hearing that today.

The Welsh Government programme for government, in the section entitled 'building a stronger, greener economy', reads, encouragingly:

‘We will create an economy which works for everyone, grounded in our values of progressive change—going forward together in the spirit of cooperation, not competition.’

Now, that’s welcome. It reflects the engagement that this Government had in the development of its manifesto with the co-operative agenda indeed. And as co-operation is embedded in the Government programme, which also again has a Minister for responsibility for co-operation, many co-operators as Ministers, and a record number of Co-operative Party Members on these benches too, the programme for government covering this sixth Senedd reiterates a manifesto pledge word for word, pledging to

‘provide greater support for worker buyouts’ and

‘seek to double the number of employee-owned businesses.’

That is real ambition. It’s hugely welcome. It is clear. It’s explicit. It’s in black and white on the printed page for all to see. But not every proposal can make it into a manifesto. We realise that. A manifesto, after all, is not unlike a programme for government—it’s a summary of months if not years of detailed policy development. It boils it down to the oven-ready, publicly digestible fundamentals of what a Government will do. It can’t contain every twist and turn of every policy debate in a windy hall in upper Cwmtwrch or from every Zoom brainstorming meeting crammed full of special advisers, special interest groups, policy wonks and blue-sky thinkers. But I draw the Minister’s attention to one little suggestion, a tiny one, which didn’t quite make it into those final, boiled-down, pared-down, slimline manifesto pledges, and that is to introduce a Welsh Marcora law, to legislate on employee ownership. Fellow co-operators like Christina Rees MP have tried to promote this in the UK Parliament, but they've drawn a blank. But could we do something like this here in Wales?

Where jobs and the local economy rely on one or two larger employers, particularly in manufacturing and industrial sectors, the collapsing or downsizing of just one or two companies can have a huge, disproportionate impact. Unemployment on this scale can have a scarring effect on those individuals, as well as their local communities, for decades. The first step of preventing people becoming unemployed in the first place is crucial. When businesses close or downsize in Italy, the birthplace of the Marcora law—it's great coming from a Welsh Italian here—workers have the right, and the financial support to back it up, to buy out all or part of the business and establish it as an employee-owned co-operative. This rescues either the profitable parts of the business, or even wholly profitable businesses where the margins have just been too small to meet external investors' expectations.

Italy's Marcora law was established over 30 years ago to divert the money that would otherwise be spent on unemployment benefits into retaining the jobs and continuing the economic activity. And it does this by providing workers at risk of redundancy when a business, or part of a business, is about to shut down with their unemployment benefits as a lump sum in advance to use as capital to buy out the business—we know this has happened in Wales in a different context, in a different way—as well as access to support and guidance to make it successful. Now, not only does this keep people in jobs and ensure businesses stay open and productive, it also means the economy over time can shift to a fairer economy, a more democratic structure, where employees themselves have a say and a stake in their workplaces.

Now, I know the Minister will say that this is difficult because of the reservation of powers to Westminster on employment and trade law; I understand that. But we do have powers over economic development, the social partnership, the economic contract, procurement, influence over companies who receive significant Welsh Government funding and more. We have levers that could prize open a Welsh Marcora law within our devolved competencies. And the Minister will rightly, I have to say, point today to the way in which this co-operative Welsh Government is already putting into action its support and funding for the co-operative economy, working alongside the Wales Co-operative Centre and the Development Bank for Wales and others, and we welcome that. But we argue that a Welsh Marcora law would help this Government in this ambitious aim to double the number of employee-owned businesses in Wales. And if he cannot say 'yes' to this proposal today definitively, then work with us to explore this further. Meet with me and the co-operative centre of Wales and others to see us, if we can explore this, to shape this proposal, because I say, 'Where there is a will, political will, then there can be a Welsh Marcora law.' And with those opening comments, I look forward to hearing from other Members.

It's a pleasure to be speaking in support of the Member for Ogmore's legislative proposal today. He's a passionate champion of co-operative principles. I want to put on the record my membership of the Co-operative Party and also my role as chair of the cross-party group on co-operatives and mutuals.

In my contribution today, I want to briefly mention one very famous incident in my constituency that became the poster child for employee ownership. And, in many ways, the example I will mention is exceptional, but, in lots of others, it's emblematic of the transformational possibilities inherent in adopting a made-in-Wales Marcora law. And that example is Tower colliery. British Coal decided to close this last deep pit in south Wales in 1994, citing the dubious proposition that the mine was uneconomical. This led to a powerful backlash, a story that has been told elsewhere, perhaps most notably in the form of its own opera, but also in the MP for Cynon Valley Ann Clwyd's account of the struggle, including her famous sit-in deep underground. But British Coal was intent on closing Tower, callously putting people out of work, draining money from the local economy. However, within 10 days of the pit closing at the start of 1995, employees of Tower had put in place a bold and brilliant plan. Altogether, 239 miners, led by the National Union of Mineworkers and branch secretary Tyrone O'Sullivan, formed TEBO—Tower Employee Buy Out. Each contributed £8,000 from their own redundancies, enabling them to take over the colliery as a workers—

We appear to have lost Vikki Howells at this point in time. I'll just check in case it's a simple hiccup. It doesn't look like a simple hiccup. We'll come back to let Vikki finish her contribution. In the meantime, Luke Fletcher.

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. I'd like to thank Huw Irranca-Davies for tabling this motion for debate; it was one that I was more than happy to support. Like Huw and Vikki, who also supported this motion, I'm a proud Member of the cross-party group on co-operatives and mutuals. It's fair to say that co-operatives and social partnerships are widely accepted as the best way of ensuring that workers get a stronger voice in the workplace, and that they offer the best route to a more sustainable way of doing businesses. I've talked over the past few weeks about how, unless we change the way we run our economy, unless we are willing to change the way we do business, we can expect to go nowhere in tackling poverty and the climate emergency.

Co-operatives and social partnerships allow us to grow the Welsh economy in a sustainable way. We've seen countless times where we've needed greater support for worker buy-outs. They are familiar scenarios to us all: an owner of a business, for example, who has built that business from the ground up and is looking to cash in by selling, which, of course, is their right, or, of course, a business that might collapse. Either option can lead to a good business disappearing from Wales, and with it the jobs that they created. As Huw has rightly pointed out, worker buy-outs can provide us with a solution that keeps those jobs in Wales and keeps a business growing.

Will the Member take an intervention?

Of course, yes.

Dwyfor Meironnydd has a very proud history in such company with Antur Aelhaearn, for example, but do you agree with me that co-operatives do put the welfare of the workers and the community that they serve at the forefront, and ensure that more of the funding from the co-operative companies stays in the local economy, and that it stands to reason, therefore, that we should support and promote co-operatives?

Of course; I agree entirely. There's an important point there about the money staying in the local community.

And if I could take a second as well to say that the Italians are ahead of the game here, as Huw has pointed out, with the Marcora law. Evviva Italia. Between 2007 and 2013, the law helped to evolve businesses into worker co-operatives and saved over 13,000 jobs. Imagine how many jobs we could have saved over the years had we had a similar provision available for worker buy-outs here in Wales. And imagine the potential security we could have given to workers who would have known that the Welsh Government would be able to support them with buying out the business they worked for if that business and their livelihoods were under threat.

But Italy isn't the only example of where worker co-operatives have brought economic prosperity. Just look at the Basque Country, which was in the same position we find ourselves in today. The Basque Country had a long history of being the scene of industry, especially steel making, but most workers were poorly paid and struggling to get by. Due to time constraints, Dirprwy Lywydd, I won't go into the long history of the co-operative movement there, but we all know the end result through Mondragon. It was interesting, actually, to hear from representatives of the steel co-operatives of the Basque Country that their only complaint was that they wished they had done it sooner. 

Finally, Dirprwy Lywydd, I was pleased to hear yesterday in the economy Minister's statement a commitment to strengthening and expanding the co-operative sector in Wales. But we have to ensure that we put words into action; we can't pay lip service anymore. And that's one of the reasons why I was so ready to support this motion. There are tangible and achievable asks set out within this motion that could help the sector to flourish in Wales. I would hope that the Senedd passes this motion, and I hope the Minister considers its contents seriously. Diolch.

I want to thank Huw Irranca-Davies for bringing this legislative proposal to the Chamber today. As a fellow Member of the Wales Co-operative Party, this Bill is at the heart of our core values to share power and wealth. Employee ownership allows employees to have a stake in the organisation of the businesses and a share of the profits, promoting a responsive, innovative and motivated workforce. In tougher economic times, employee ownership can save jobs, rooting them in the communities and making them more resilient in the long term.

Welsh Government interventions such as the Welsh economic resilience fund were essential to the survival of the Welsh economy over the pandemic. As we move Wales forward, we must take these opportunities to work towards building an economy that creates secure and rewarding jobs, that benefits employees and the local communities that they serve. An employee ownership Bill could play a crucial role in that.

So, just to break it down and back all of this up with further evidence, according to the ownership effect inquiry chaired by Baroness Bowles, on an individual worker level, they can enjoy higher employee engagement, motivation and well-being, and top up their salaries by sharing in the capital value that they create. At a business level, employee-owned business have greater levels of productivity, they encourage employees at every level to drive innovation. For the wider economy, they are more likely to create and retain jobs that are rooted in our local areas, and then, for existing businesses, there can be minimal disruption for your business, particularly if you're advised by specialists, and there's no need to find a buyer, because your employees will already understand the potential of your business and will pay a fair price. Why wouldn't we want to do this?

However, one of the biggest barriers to more employee ownership, apparently, is the lack of awareness and knowledge available for businesses within the Welsh economy. As Luke Fletcher said, when businesses end up doing this, they think to themselves, 'Why didn't I do this sooner?' So, this is why I would like to say again how pleased I am to be discussing this today, so that an employee ownership Bill could potentially be part of Wales's recovery, creating an inclusive and resilient economy by growing employee and worker ownership, rather than lose jobs, our high streets and town centres. We now need cross-party support and investment if it is going to be a success for businesses and our local economies.

I see that Vikki Howells's connection has been re-established, and I call upon Vikki Howells to give her concluding remarks. I remind her she's got a minute left.

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. So, Tower Colliery stayed operational until 2008, giving people work, keeping money in the local economy, and the tale of Tower, one of triumph, tenacity, and proving the coal board and the Department of Trade and Industry wrong, is remarkable. But the principle of supporting and enabling employee acquisition of the company is one that shouldn't be, and neither should the wider benefits that the operating model brought to the local area.

Community involvement via a liaison committee and a community benefit scheme for villages surrounding the pit, providing funding to groups and individuals and sustaining legacy projects, are all benefits that could be replicated in communities across Wales if we create a framework under which it's easier for employees to buy out the enterprise within which they work. Such a model would also, I suggest, go a long way towards creating the missing middle that is a key objective to developing the foundational economy in Wales. So, I hope that colleagues from around the Siambr can join me in supporting this proposal today.

I'd like to start by thanking the Member for raising this debate and for the way in which he's put forward his argument. Though I recognise the reasons why the Member has brought forward these proposals, I nonetheless think that the Member is off-kilter on what the potential benefits of implementing a 1980s Italian-style Marcora law in Wales would be, and I'm also concerned that the Member is asking the Welsh Government to consider radical economic proposals when they are already struggling to implement current legislation that they've already agreed to.

As we all know in the Chamber, the UK Government is very open in its support for co-operative businesses and how they would like to grow the co-operative sector in this country. The co-operative employee-ownership model is seen by many in the United Kingdom, across all political spectrums, as being good for workers, local communities and businesses. Indeed, the Conservative UK Government has recognised this and has introduced a series of measures to support and protect the sector. One such example is the Co-operative and Community Benefit Societies Act 2014, which has substantially cut the legal complexities involved in running co-operatives, and, alongside this legislation, we have seen an increase in the amount of withdrawable share capital a member can invest in co-operatives from £20,000 to £100,000. This has given a number of co-operatives in this country much needed and greater flexibility in raising capital.

Furthermore, I understand the UK Government has highlighted again and again that they're very much open to receiving credible proposals for this reform, and Her Majesty's Treasury continually engages with the co-operative sector to maximise its potential. My Labour colleagues should be looking at this route rather than trying to argue for what they see to be trendy European policies that are nearly 40 years old.

With specific regard to the introduction of the Marcora law in Wales, I think Members need to recognise that there are clear differences between the Italian and UK economies now and the Italian and UK economies of the 1980s. The Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development currently has UK unemployment at 4.7 per cent, whilst it was at 8 per cent in Italy prior to the introduction of the Marcora law. It then shot up to about 10 per cent and has averaged at that level ever since. It is currently at 9.3 per cent. Furthermore, in addition to the UK's comparatively low unemployment rate, we also have unprecedented levels of job support, helping those who find themselves unemployed back into work as quickly as possible. This means, according to the latest OECD data, that UK workers are less likely than Italian workers to be unemployed for substantial periods of time. This not only shows that there's a clear disparity between the two nations, but if there were any positive outcomes to the introduction of the Marcora law in Italy, these would not be felt as strongly in Wales. Welfare savings are often highlighted as one of the main benefits of the Marcora law, but since UK workers are considerably less likely to remain on long-term unemployment, it's far from clear whether or not a Marcora-style employment policy would deliver this for Wales.

So, let's bring this back into the realms of reality. Co-operative businesses purchased by workers in Italy under the Marcora law are part funded by three years' worth of surrendered unemployment benefits. So, basically, if the worker buy-out co-operative goes bust— 

Can the Member conclude now, please?

—and a large proportion of these do, then workers will be unable to claim welfare benefits to support themselves and their families for up to three years. I suspect that very few people here have given this any thought, preferring to focus on the perceived benefits, rather than the cold, hard reality of the matter. I doubt Members here are seriously proposing that workers will have to surrender their welfare entitlements, but this is a fundamental part of the Marcora law.

Thus, if Members are genuine in their desire to develop co-operative businesses in Wales, they would be better off making credible proposals to amend current and existing legislation rather than trying to recycle 1980s economic policies that were originally put forward by a Government that collapsed under the weight of its own corruption. We will not be supporting this motion. Thank you. 

It's a very courageous man who seeks to defend the current economic policy of the United Kingdom Government. I notice that the business Secretary on the Today programme this morning didn't even rise to the challenge. In that contribution, Joel James described a 'cold, hard reality', and cold and hard is how it feels to be at the beck and call of UK economic policy at the moment. I'm not sure there are many people in Wales who feel that we are seeing the success of neoliberalism at the moment.

And in making that argument, of course, what he also does is to misunderstand fundamentally the nature of the Welsh economy for too many people and too many businesses. One of the great advantages of a co-operative approach to business and to economic organisation, of course, is a business that is rooted in a community, that is rooted in its place, that is rooted in seeking to deliver economic benefit for people in that community and not to extract wealth from that community. Those of us who grew up in the south Wales Valleys know all about the extraction of wealth, and we know all about what was left: grinding poverty and hopelessness was left, whilst the coal owners enjoyed a life of undreamt luxury and benefits from the labour of those people. 

And let me say this, co-operatives offer us an alternative economic model that has the potential to root an economy in the creation of wealth for the first time for decades. My parents were born under a co-operative approach to healthcare. The Tredegar Medical Aid Society, the forerunner of the health service, was a co-operative. It was created by the workers of Tredegar in order to deliver healthcare when that was not provided by the state. And I believe that the Welsh Government—and this is what I'd look for in the Minister's response—has an opportunity here, within the settlement, to actually create co-operatives that can have a transformative impact, not only on the economy of Wales but on the communities of Wales as well. 

Take, for example, what we're seeking to do in terms of transport. We've had a conversation this afternoon about public transport. We know there are opportunities for people to organise transport collectives in order to deliver the sort of public transport that we all want to see. We had conversations last week about energy policy. We know that there are opportunities for people to create energy co-operatives in different communities, to ensure that we have renewables able to match our ambitions both for climate policy and for social policy and to deliver the sort of energy revolution that we want to see. But I would like to see the Government go further as well. I can see that I'm not the only former fisheries Minister in this Chamber, and one of the things that I felt that the Government could look at, which we never had an opportunity to do in the past, was, for example, to ensure a collectivisation of quotas, to ensure that the fishing industry owned the quotas that they were able to deliver.

Can the Member conclude now, please?

I'm looking at Peter Fox; I had a good conversation with him earlier about his proposed food legislation. You know and I know that the agriculture industry uses—[Interruption.] We haven't got time to take an intervention. It uses collectives and uses co-operatives already. You know it works, I know it works. Tell Joel James that it works as well. Thank you. 

I call on the Minister for Economy, Vaughan Gething.

Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. I'd like to thank Huw Irranca-Davies for bringing forward today's debate. I should make clear that I, too, am a Welsh Labour and Co-operative member, as I have been since my election to this place in 2011. I think it is an important and a timely discussion, and I want to thank Members for their thoughtful contributions, including a note of disagreement in the Chamber. I particularly want to thank Vikki Howells in two parts for reminding us of the story of Tower, and not just what happened at the time that Tower was created as a worker-owned operation, but its continued future—what is now a fantastic business—and the structure and support it required to be successful, as well as the determination of its workforce to ensure that it was successful. In Wales, it's a good example of our strong commitment to social enterprise and the co-operative sector. The values that we lean on and the principles of social enterprise and co-operation were part of helping us through the COVID pandemic, and what I think will be part of helping to build the greener, fairer, more prosperous future that Alun Davies celebrated with us yesterday.

I want to see the sector continue to grow. We've demonstrated our commitment, as Huw Irranca has recognised, in the programme for government and the vision set out in ‘Transforming Wales through social enterprise’. That action plan was launched last year after being co-produced with social enterprises and support agencies here in Wales. Management buy-outs are already an important facet in any healthy business system. They provide the opportunity for businesses to grow and to continue, usually by retaining local ownership and commitment, as many Members have recognised. They're an important part of the foundational economy, but I should say of course that co-ops and mutuals are not simply local businesses; very large businesses can be worker-owned enterprises too, of which perhaps John Lewis is the most obvious example. But opportunities for co-operatives, especially through the succession route of Welsh business—[Interruption.] I'll just finish on this point. They will help keep these businesses based and owned by people in Wales. I'll take the intervention then make more progress.

Prior to coming to this place, I was proud to work in the mutual sector for more than two decades, and I strongly support the success of mutuals and co-operatives and the benefits they bring to our market economy. But the organisation I worked for crashed a few years after I left and had to be taken over by another organisation. So, do you recognise they're not a magic bullet, and unless they make a surplus, they won't thrive and survive, and that surplus is dependent upon customer service, competitiveness and financial prudence?

No-one is arguing that co-ops or mutuals are a magic bullet and guarantee survival; that's always been the case. And I recognise of course that the Member is right to highlight that in the finance sector, there is a long tradition of successful mutuals, and a business model that I think is here to stay for the future.

We already have in Wales extensive support available for the sector. Employee Ownership Wales is part of the Social Business Wales programme funded by the Welsh Government and the now former European regional development fund as far as Wales is concerned—a successful programme that is of course at risk if that practical support in the form of European Union funds is not reprovided to Wales in the future. It currently provides fully funded bespoke advice to help decide if employee ownership and share schemes are the right solution for that business moving forward. In addition, we offer dedicated support through Business Wales, and that helps with succession planning options, including management buy-outs.

In addition to this, I've asked my officials to work with the sector to explore options on how we can further promote employee ownership and worker buy-outs with our wider stakeholders and businesses here in Wales, including the work that the Development Bank of Wales already undertakes. Whether it's the work that we've done in recent years with the ideas of the Welsh Co-operative and Mutuals Commission to make real the values of co-operative action across areas of Government, whether it's in social care, where we have legislated to support the development of not-for-profit providers and set up the integrated care fund to promote alternative delivery models, or whether it's in the foundation economy, we have already established new experimental funds to test innovative ideas and new ways of working that we hope can and will scale up within procurement. We have already used the powers of devolved Government here in Wales in a confident way, to work with partners like the Wales Co-operative Centre, and to take many of the ideas honed over the last century of this movement's work to make progressive change a reality and to improve the lives of working people.

We're committed to continuing this journey through the policy levers that we do have available here in Wales. If we were to introduce legislation in this area, more detailed discussions would be required to understand the benefit of doing so. I have an open mind on the question of legislation, but there is the very real practical challenge of both a packed legislative agenda, but also the balance of reserved and devolved powers that the Member identified in his opening.

The Government will abstain on the motion today, but Welsh Labour, including the very many Welsh Labour and Co-operative Members, will have a free vote. However, I do want to respond positively to what I think is the point and the purpose that the Member highlights in bringing this motion before us today: how can we and how will we double the size of employee-owned businesses in Wales within this Welsh Parliament term? Because I'll be very happy to take up his suggestion to sit down with him, with fellow co-operators and the Wales Co-operative Centre to discuss just how we do that in practice and fulfil our manifesto pledge.

I call on Huw Irranca-Davies to reply to the debate.

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. I'll respond very briefly. Can I first of all just thank everybody who's taken part in this debate? It's been well worth while. I've enjoyed it all, and I'll try and respond briefly to some of the contributions, finishing with the Minister.

First of all, to Joel. I welcome the contribution and the criticism of this as well, because we need that challenge. But I would simply say that those existing co-operatives that are now in place in every part of Wales are not part of the 1980s sandal-wearing agenda; they are in the most cutting-edge parts of the economy, working as employee-owned businesses and reaping the benefits that were described by Sarah Murphy and others. They're not some throwback to the past; they're actually a look ahead to the future. But I welcome his contribution.

Alun Davies in response curiously said there—he made an important point—that the co-operative approach here to, actually, employee ownership is about not extracting wealth from communities, as we've seen in the past with a free-for-all neoliberal agenda, or before there was even a neoliberal agenda, but actually rooting that wealth in the local economy, and recycling it amongst people who share the ownership of it.

Let me turn then to the comments that were made by Luke. I really welcome the support for this, Luke, and your membership of the cross-party group on co-ops and mutuals shows the spread of support for this sort of agenda. As you said, it's a solution to keep jobs in Wales, in the communities, keep the wealth in the communities, keep the jobs here as well—what you were laying out the other day, Minister, about keeping people working in Wales. What could be more attractive than having a share in the businesses and the companies they work for?

Sarah's comments—thank you so much for that contribution, as a fellow Co-operative Party member as well, as were others. You turned to Baroness Bowles's analysis based on the evidence there, and you rightly cited higher employee engagement, motivation and well-being, a more inclusive, transparent and effective model of governance, topping up the salaries by sharing the capital value of the companies that are involved, and stronger workforce retention, which we hear so much about today. This is what co-operative models of worker ownership actually do—greater levels of productivity and efficiency. Joel, this isn't a 1980s throwback, this is this century looking forward, genuinely.

If I turn finally to Vikki there, before the Minister. Vikki—[Interruption.] Sorry, did you want to—? Am I allowed to—? Yes.

Thank you for that intervention. The Conservative Party isn't against co-operatives. One of the fundamental things that we are against, really, with the Marcora thing that was brought in in the 1980s, was a Government-backed investment of 3:1, which was a substantial Government investment that was actually proven to break EU state-aid rules. That is one of the major issues we have here, if you're proposing that legislation. So, can you confirm what element of financial backing will you be expecting from the Welsh Government?

I'm really glad to hear that you're not opposed to the idea of employee ownership and co-operative models of worker ownership. I would just say to him, don't look back at that 1980s model. Actually look at working with us on what a new model would look like to achieve exactly the same end.

That brings me to Vikki Howells, who spoke to us in a tale of two halves, very like the Tower story itself—a group of people who came together, did an employee buy-out and actually gave two decades of further life to that, and are now reinventing it again for another era  with the money that they've reinvested rooted in those communities—in the wealth of those communities. And look, if they can create an opera about this, which would seem such a mundane thing, we're in business, I'm telling you. 

Finally, Minister, I'm delighted that in response you did lay out exactly what this Welsh Government is doing already, and it is extensive; it is huge, the ambition behind it, including working with the co-operative centre, the European funding that's currently going on, which we need to replace to go into this support, Business Wales, the Development Bank of Wales, and you'll explore more options. I was so delighted to hear you say you have an open mind on the question of legislation. In that case, Minister, as a fellow co-operator, let's sit down and discuss it.  

The proposal is to note the legislative proposal. Does any Member object? [Objection.] 

We have an objection. 

I will defer voting on the motion until voting time. 

Voting deferred until voting time.