Part of the debate – in the Senedd at 5:55 pm on 16 November 2021.
Can I thank you for those points? They’re all valid points and raise important issues—issues that we’ve been giving a lot of thought to over the past couple of months, and have been the subject of considerable discussion.
Just firstly on the constitution, the constitution is at the core of almost everything that is happening at the moment: Brexit, the trade and co-operation agreement, Northern Ireland, article 16, events in Scotland, the impact in terms of Northern Ireland, relations with the Republic of Ireland, and so on. I think this issue with the constitution is, I suppose, using the word 'constitution', rather than using all the institutions and levers of power and governance that impact so much on people’s lives. It is something that is vitally important. I, of course, understand your opinion, although, of course, it is not the position of the UK Government, which is engaging, constitutionally, on a day-by-day basis. You have a whole host of Ministers whose main function and role is dealing with issues relating to the constitution.
In terms of the issue in terms of the breadth and the diversity of it, I do think we do have a very broad and a very diverse commission with a considerable and wide range of skills. It is certainly the case—. A lot of thought has been given, and a lot of names have been considered, and skills, and whether people would be available, whether people would be able to contribute, and so on, and how that would interact with the engagement process, and so on. But what I think we do have is a commission that is very wide ranging, immensely skilled, and I think has the whole host of skills that the commission’s going to need. It is, of course, true that it is very, very difficult, with 11 people—nine persons and two co-chairs—to actually include all the sorts of skills and diversity you want. You end up with a commission that becomes too large and too bureaucratic.
That leads into, really, the other point you raised, which is, I think, the issue of the expert panel. Of course, there is work that is ongoing around that and, of course, there has to be engagement over that with the co-chairs and, indeed, with the commission members now, and also to ensure the flexibility. So, you are right; in terms of business, in terms of finance, and those skills, we have thought very, very carefully about this, and I know the co-chairs and the commission members are beginning to think very carefully about those as well. But I think the flexibility that will be in the system there is to actually bring in experts as and when needed in particular areas. For example, the programme of work that the commission has will, to some extent, determine some of the very specific experts that need to be brought it. So, I think, having that degree of flexibility within it and the way it works is going to be important. But, as I say, there is a lot more thought that is going into that.
That then also leads on to the issue in terms of all the other sectors and so on, and the engagement process. I think if you take those three together, you have something that is not only, I think, very high profile, very highly skilled, but has the capacity, I think, to reach into all the corners of our society and our communities and our institutions, and have that engagement. And, in many ways, the engagement process is almost the most important bit—making sure that works. I’ve said that many times as well.
With regard to the cost and budget, just to say first of all, the terms on which commission members are actually engaged are pretty standard across the UK in commissions of this particular sort. The actual full costing and budgeting and so on is still being worked on, and, of course, there will be a budget statement, so there will be an opportunity there. I will write with further details, it’s just I don’t have those full details at the moment.
In terms of the UK as a whole, let’s just make one thing clear: this is a Welsh commission, and of course it will have to engage with UK Government. It will have to engage with commissions that are taking place anywhere, but I've outlined previously the considerable difficulty we have had having any engagement whatsoever with the UK Government on the issues of fundamental constitutional reform. We have a difficulty with the UK Government in that it finds it very difficult to even use the term 'devolved Government', and I think that probably tells you something.
But, look, this will be a matter for the commission. Once the commission has formally launched now on the twenty-fifth, it will develop its own plan of action, its own process of engagement. And I've said on a number of occasions in this Senedd that I would expect it to engage and to utilise every opportunity that there is in terms of carrying out its work, engaging in the interests of Wales, and to putting forward views and working towards eventually building up to an interim report and then a full report.