The final item today is a statement by the Counsel General and Minister for the Constitution on an update on the constitutional commission. I call on the Counsel General, Mick Antoniw.

Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. Last month, I announced the appointment of the co-chairs to the Independent Commission on the Constitutional Future of Wales. I am delighted to be able to come back to the Senedd to announce the appointment of the commissioners.

Each commissioner brings different strengths, knowledge, experience and perspectives. They come from all parts of Wales, across the UK and further afield. Each has been selected for the contribution that they can make. They can cover both constitutional law and practice and the practical implications of constitutional reform. They have real experience at the sharp end of questions such as, 'How will these reforms affect citizens?', 'What will the practical impact be?', 'What can we learn from the experience of other nations, in other times and other places?'

The Llywydd took the Chair.

Collectively, they represent both the traditional academic rigour and the new alternative perspectives that the commission will require to think creatively and radically about Wales's future. I welcome the constructive engagement that I was able to have with other parties in the Senedd, as we looked to develop the membership of the commission, and I'm pleased that the membership encompasses a range of political perspectives.

It is important that the commission can properly reflect the citizens of Wales in all of their diversity. I am thrilled to be able to announce the appointment of commissioners from so many experiences, backgrounds and communities. I am confident that we have in place a commission that can develop a roadmap for a better Wales—a more just Wales and a more sustainable Wales.

With no further ado, and in no particular order, here are the nine commissioners who will be joining Dr Rowan Williams and Professor Laura McAllister on the independent commission. Dr Anwen Elias is a reader in politics at Aberystwyth University. Her research interests include comparative territorial and constitutional politics, political parties and deliberative democracy. She is co-director of the Centre for Welsh Politics and Society and the Wales Institute of Social and Economic Research and Data.

Lauren McEvatt is a Conservative former UK Government special adviser to the Wales Office from the coalition administration, where she worked on the Silk commission and the Wales Act 2014. She has subsequently worked for several Governments across east Africa and the Caribbean on constitutional reform, trade and investment.

Kirsty Williams, who needs no introduction in this place, was a Member of the Senedd until last April and Minister for Education during the fifth Senedd. She became the leader of the Welsh Liberal Democrats in December 2008 and at the time, she was the first female leader of any of the four main Welsh political parties.

Albert Owen is the former Labour MP for Ynys Môn from 2001 to 2019. During his time in Parliament, he was a member of the Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy Committee, the Welsh Affairs Committee and the International Development Committee.

Shavanah Taj is Wales TUC's first black, Asian and minority ethnic general secretary. Shavanah is a passionate campaigner and can often be found contributing speeches at round-table debates and protest marches on issues such as anti-racism, just transition, climate change, human rights, women's rights, fair pay and fair work.

Philip Rycroft was a civil servant for 30 years. He worked at a senior level for the devolved Government in Scotland before moving to the Cabinet Office in London where he led civil service work for the UK Government on the constitution and devolution. His last posting was as Permanent Secretary at the Department for Exiting the European Union.

Michael Marmot is Professor of epidemiology and public health at University College London and director of the UCL Institute of Health Equity. Professor Marmot has led research groups on health inequalities for over 40 years. He chaired the World Health Organization commission on social determinants of health, several WHO regional commissions, and reviews on tacking health inequality for Governments in the UK.

Miguela Gonzalez is a diversity and inclusion practitioner and a former journalist. She worked for the BBC for 15 years, most recently as the diversity and inclusion lead for the nations. She currently works for life science firm Abcam, where she is working to build an open and inclusive culture. Miguela has worked with the Welsh Government on the implementation of the Culture Connect Cymru project and has also been a visiting lecturer at Cardiff University's School of Journalism, Media and Culture.

Finally, Leanne Wood, a former Member of the Senedd for the Rhondda and former Leader of Plaid Cymru. As the first female leader of her party, she brings a wealth of political experience and has a long-standing commitment to issues of social justice.

The commissioners will be supported by an expert panel, who will begin to be appointed over the coming weeks. The panel members will bring expertise in governance, law, constitution, economics, finance and more areas of knowledge that are critical to questions of Wales's constitutional future.

The commission will have its first meeting on 25 November, where the First Minister and myself will attend to welcome the commissioners and set out the objectives. After that, the commission will be free to fulfil its remit independently of Government direction. I encourage all of us to take the opportunity to engage with the commission and to join in the national conversation. Diolch, Llywydd.

Thank you, Minister, for advance notice of your statement. As you know, the Welsh Conservatives don't believe that taking the commission forward should be a priority for the Welsh Government. We believe that you have got far bigger fish to fry, frankly, with getting our economy back on track, getting our health service back on track, and getting our education system back on track after the pandemic. But, you haven't listened to that advice. You have gone ahead and established your commission anyway, which I think is disappointing. Nevertheless, we have always said that we would participate in this, and that it's important to have a centre-right voice around the table. That is why we have nominated Lauren McEvatt, who I'm sure will make a very positive contribution to those discussions.

I have to say that, having listened to the words that you have spoken in the past and compared them with what you have delivered today in terms of the composition of the commission, I'm a little bit disappointed. You said back in July that the members of this commission must represent all ages and be drawn from the widest possible range of sectors in civic society—public, private, third sector, civic sector and grassroots organisations and social partners. I don't see much of the private sector on this list. I don't see much of the third sector on this list. I don't see any grass-roots organisations on this list either. I think, therefore, that it is not going to be wholly representative in terms of the work that it takes forward.

We have also, of course, questioned the wisdom of one of the co-chairs being appointed, with that particular individual being a former Plaid Cymru parliamentary candidate. But, again, this is something that you have decided to appoint. You have made these decisions without any consultation with my party or other political parties in this Chamber, other than inviting a single nomination around the table. So, I don't think, actually, that the make-up of this particular commission is sufficiently broad, as you had originally intended it to be.

I also asked you some questions when you made a statement last month about the commission. I asked how much this commission was going to cost. You didn't answer that question. You said that you'd come back and answer it. You have had the opportunity to put some more flesh on the bones today, in terms of the potential cost of this commission. We have got the Welsh Government's budget coming up in just a few weeks' time. So, I would have thought that you would have done some homework, got the calculator out, and actually determined how much this thing is going to cost over the next two years, because that, of course, is the time window that you have given it. So, can you tell us today: what are the allowances that are going to be paid to the co-chairs? What are the allowances that are going to be paid to the members of the commission? Are they being paid a set amount, or is it on a per-meeting basis? How is this thing going to actually work? I think that people are interested. The public is interested in that.

I think, also, that we are very interested in who the expert panel of advisers are going to be. You have said that you are going to outline the names of the expert panel in due course, and I'm pleased to hear that. But, can I suggest that, given the lack of breadth and diversity of the commission itself, perhaps you can build that into the expert panel, going forward, so that we can make sure that there is the diversity that everyone wants to see contributing to this process?

Finally, I just want to make this point, if I may. You and I obviously recognise that constitutional matters, as far as the future of the UK is concerned, are matters for the whole of the United Kingdom, not just one constituent part, which Wales is. Therefore, having this conversation in isolation, without having wider discussions on a UK basis is, potentially, going to be pretty futile. Therefore, can I ask: what discussion has the Welsh Government had with the UK Government, with the Scottish Government, with the Northern Ireland Executive about the way that this commission will undertake its work and how it can contribute to a wider piece of work, which, obviously, will need to be done on a UK-wide basis if there’s going to be any hope of this being a meaningful exercise? Thank you.

Can I thank you for those points? They’re all valid points and raise important issues—issues that we’ve been giving a lot of thought to over the past couple of months, and have been the subject of considerable discussion.

Just firstly on the constitution, the constitution is at the core of almost everything that is happening at the moment: Brexit, the trade and co-operation agreement, Northern Ireland, article 16, events in Scotland, the impact in terms of Northern Ireland, relations with the Republic of Ireland, and so on. I think this issue with the constitution is, I suppose, using the word 'constitution', rather than using all the institutions and levers of power and governance that impact so much on people’s lives. It is something that is vitally important. I, of course, understand your opinion, although, of course, it is not the position of the UK Government, which is engaging, constitutionally, on a day-by-day basis. You have a whole host of Ministers whose main function and role is dealing with issues relating to the constitution.

In terms of the issue in terms of the breadth and the diversity of it, I do think we do have a very broad and a very diverse commission with a considerable and wide range of skills. It is certainly the case—. A lot of thought has been given, and a lot of names have been considered, and skills, and whether people would be available, whether people would be able to contribute, and so on, and how that would interact with the engagement process, and so on. But what I think we do have is a commission that is very wide ranging, immensely skilled, and I think has the whole host of skills that the commission’s going to need. It is, of course, true that it is very, very difficult, with 11 people—nine persons and two co-chairs—to actually include all the sorts of skills and diversity you want. You end up with a commission that becomes too large and too bureaucratic.

That leads into, really, the other point you raised, which is, I think, the issue of the expert panel. Of course, there is work that is ongoing around that and, of course, there has to be engagement over that with the co-chairs and, indeed, with the commission members now, and also to ensure the flexibility. So, you are right; in terms of business, in terms of finance, and those skills, we have thought very, very carefully about this, and I know the co-chairs and the commission members are beginning to think very carefully about those as well. But I think the flexibility that will be in the system there is to actually bring in experts as and when needed in particular areas. For example, the programme of work that the commission has will, to some extent, determine some of the very specific experts that need to be brought it. So, I think, having that degree of flexibility within it and the way it works is going to be important. But, as I say, there is a lot more thought that is going into that.

That then also leads on to the issue in terms of all the other sectors and so on, and the engagement process. I think if you take those three together, you have something that is not only, I think, very high profile, very highly skilled, but has the capacity, I think, to reach into all the corners of our society and our communities and our institutions, and have that engagement. And, in many ways, the engagement process is almost the most important bit—making sure that works. I’ve said that many times as well.

With regard to the cost and budget, just to say first of all, the terms on which commission members are actually engaged are pretty standard across the UK in commissions of this particular sort. The actual full costing and budgeting and so on is still being worked on, and, of course, there will be a budget statement, so there will be an opportunity there. I will write with further details, it’s just I don’t have those full details at the moment.

In terms of the UK as a whole, let’s just make one thing clear: this is a Welsh commission, and of course it will have to engage with UK Government. It will have to engage with commissions that are taking place anywhere, but I've outlined previously the considerable difficulty we have had having any engagement whatsoever with the UK Government on the issues of fundamental constitutional reform. We have a difficulty with the UK Government in that it finds it very difficult to even use the term 'devolved Government', and I think that probably tells you something.

But, look, this will be a matter for the commission. Once the commission has formally launched now on the twenty-fifth, it will develop its own plan of action, its own process of engagement. And I've said on a number of occasions in this Senedd that I would expect it to engage and to utilise every opportunity that there is in terms of carrying out its work, engaging in the interests of Wales, and to putting forward views and working towards eventually building up to an interim report and then a full report.

I'd like to thank you, Counsel General and Minister for the Constitution, for your statement this afternoon.

There is no doubt that devolution in Wales has been a journey; it's been a long one. If you think of it for a moment, with our environmental hats on, as a rail journey from London—and the Llywydd will be pleased with this—to Aberystwyth. Now, there are very few who want us to stay in Paddington. There are even fewer who want direct rule from a viceroy-type John Redwood in a Whitehall office, while there are a few over there on the Conservative benches who want to go back to the age of steam and roll devolution back. The majority of us here, and in Wales, want to go full steam ahead, full speed ahead on the devolution journey—hopefully, Llywydd, on to Aberystwyth in an electric train, through the Welsh countryside, avoiding the constituencies of some anti-Senedd Tory MPs in Shropshire on the way.

Unlike Darren Millar, I welcome the appointment of the commissioners. As the Counsel General said, we can't include everyone, and we all know who'd be the first to complain if there were too many commissioners appointed.

This is a very striking collection of commissioners who have broad ranging experience. I'm very pleased that this is the most diverse commission that we have seen in Wales to date, and it's encouraging to see more women than men as members of the commission. If I could just name a few members specifically: Dr Anwen Elias brings great academic experience to the commission. She's written recently in The Welsh Agenda, with her colleagues at Aberystwyth University, on the challenge of including people beyond the usual suspects in our national conversation to ensure that the commission is as inclusive as possible. I very much hope that we can use some of the innovative ways that Dr Anwen Elias and her colleagues at Aberystwyth University have been trialling over the summer. But, of course—

—Counsel General, a more deliberative democracy does cost money. So, will the Counsel General commit to making sure that the commission is resourced sufficiently to enable the wider conversation that we want to happen to happen?

Lauren McEvatt, the Conservative nominee, is welcome, and, obviously, a constructive Conservative. We still have a few of them left. And she has considerable experience of the Silk commission. Despite the bluster over there of Darren Millar and others, I am pleased—[Interruption.]—I am pleased that the Conservatives are taking part in this commission.

The appointment of Shavanah Taj, Wales TUC general secretary, is particularly welcome as the voice of workers in Wales. And this is apt, isn't it, because the creation of the Welsh TUC in 1974 was an important step on the devolution journey. The Wales TUC were ahead of the curve when it came to devolution, and it took others a while to catch up.

I also welcome the appointments of Albert Owen and Kirsty Williams, but particularly so my South Wales Central predecessor Leanne Wood. Think how far we've come on this journey. When Kirsty Williams and you, Llywydd, and also the Minister for social services, were first elected here, in 1999, this was a corporate body. When Leanne was first elected, in 2003, she was elected to a body that wasn't a primary legislative Parliament, and without any tax-raising powers. Leanne Wood has constantly pushed for improvements within our devolution settlement. From her paper, 'Making Our Communities Safer' in 2008, calling for the devolution of criminal justice, to 'A greenprint for the Valleys', advocating for Wales to have powers over the Crown Estate, and then to 'The change we need', where she put forward a radical agenda for ensuring that decisions affecting Wales are decided here in Wales in the hands of the people of Wales. As she said today, with Scotland likely to determine its own future in the next few years, this is an opportunity for the people of Wales to have the biggest conversation about our future as a nation than we've ever had. And Leanne Wood is right there, and that conversation is vitally important. We live in a social media age that polarises views and stresses mutual animosity. That's why a conversation is so important, that we listen carefully to others, especially those of differing views.  

Counsel General, as regards the expert panel, how they will be appointed, and when do you believe they will be appointed? And I note that the secretariat will be separate from the civil service, but can we ensure that the secretariat does receive support and resources from the civil service when necessary? 

I am looking forward to seeing this commission engaging with people constructively across Wales. It is important to ensure that the future of Wales is in the hands of the Welsh people. Plaid Cymru, of course, still believes Wales can and Wales will be an independent nation one day. It's not a matter of if but when we become independent, but, for now, let our journey continue. And on that journey, let us be willing to listen to uncomfortable truths, but, more importantly, act upon them. Diolch yn fawr. 

Can I thank the Member for his comments and contributions? We have indeed been on a devolution journey that continues, and society continually changes. Constitutions continually change. Nothing remains static. You asked a number of quite important questions. The expert panel in terms of the size, and so on, I think I'll probably put out a written statement in due course when there's further information on that. Obviously, it's very important that the members of the commission and the co-chairs are inputting into the design of that, because it is partly dependent on the framework of the engagement process—the strategic plan that they will be developing in terms of how they will carry out their work. But it is an additional opportunity in terms of additional skills and diversity to input into that. But the commission is the body that will be taking the key decisions. 

Can I just say, I'm very pleased that the Wales TUC's Shavanah Taj has joined the commission, because representing something like 0.5 million trade union members within Wales, their input is really, really significant, and they are, of course, having their own commission? So, there is a natural interlink there.

I agree with you also, in terms of the considerations in terms of funding, that it has to be able to do its job properly to engage, otherwise there is no purpose to setting up the commission. 

I agree very much with some of the comments that I think were leading to, I suppose, some of the comments that one of the co-chairs, Laura McAllister, has made recently publicly, which is that this puts us on the front foot. It enables us to be in the position, when we know change is occurring, change is happening—we can see that all around us, not just in Westminster, perhaps globally and certainly on the European scene as well—for once, where what's important is that, from Wales, we are able to put forward our position, that we are not solely reactive to events and decisions that are being taken elsewhere. And it seems to me that is a sign of the maturity of the politics and democracy that are developing within Wales. 

Can I just finish on a point of, I suppose, unity, and so on, with two particular quotes? One was,

'Diversity is the one true thing we all have in common'.

Of course, that was Winston Churchill. And the other is,

'When everyone is included, everyone wins', and that was Jesse Jackson. Diolch, Llywydd.

Thank you, Counsel General, for the statement that you've made this evening. But, with the greatest respect, was there any real point to this statement this afternoon? Do you truly believe that this commission is a good use of Welsh Government time and resources, given the state of our NHS and social care system?

While I have real concerns about the make-up of this commission politically—I mean, talk about one-sided and jobs for the boys—I'm more concerned about what it would cost the Welsh taxpayer, like my colleague Darren Millar asked you earlier on in the discussion. Counsel General, will you provide a breakdown on the costings of conducting this commission, both in terms of financial outlay as well as the cost of diverting Welsh Government staff from other essential duties? Thank you.

Well, thank you for your comments. I always worry when someone starts off their speech with 'with the greatest respect', which then means they're going to proceed with absolutely no respect whatsoever. I also then get a bit worried when the person then says about a commission that is seven female to four male, that it's 'jobs for the boys', and I wonder when you wrote the speech whether you touched on this—not as fleet of foot as you might have liked to be. I've already answered the issue of cost. I really don't see a great deal of point in going over the old ground of the commission; we've well debated that. We have an electoral mandate for this commission to go forward, and I believe it is an incredibly timely commission that is being set up at this juncture in the constitutional future of the UK, of Europe, and the global situation in the world. Thank you.

And that was the final request to speak on that statement, so that brings our work for the afternoon today to an end. Thank you very much.

The meeting ended at 18:12.