The next item, therefore, is a statement by the Minister for rural affairs on the bovine TB eradication programme. I call on the Minister to switch over her files and to present the statement on TB. Lesley Griffiths.

Diolch, Llywydd. Today, I am giving my annual update on progress of our TB eradication programme. It is four years since the launch of the regionalised approach and we have continually refined our policies, particularly with regard to the changing disease picture. I am also announcing a 12-week consultation on a refreshed TB eradication programme. We have seen good progress since our programme was first established, with long-term decreases in incidence and prevalence. The 48 per cent decrease in new TB incidents since 2009 demonstrates that our programme is making a real difference to farming families and businesses.

Unfortunately, we are currently tackling spikes in disease in north Wales's intermediate TB area north, and low TB area, by implementing enhanced measures. On 1 November, herds located in hotspots in Denbighshire and the Conwy valley were assigned intermediate TB area north status. This will require pre-movement testing, a key risk-reduction measure to stop disease spreading. Additional testing around breakdown herds is also now required, with veterinary 'keep it out' visits available to contiguous herds testing clear in these hotspots, and the small cluster around Pennal, with further measures in train.

In response to changes in milk contracts, we allowed the establishment of orange markets and rearing approved finishing units, giving farmers outlets for surplus dairy calves. Having received many representations from farmers wanting these outlets, it is disappointing to see low use. I would encourage the industry to consider setting up more to maximise their potential.

A key aim of our programme is the rapid, accurate, early identification of infection. We strive to improve TB diagnostics, embracing new research and being open to new validated tests. In collaboration with our programme board and Aberystwyth University, we are considering the future of TB diagnostics. We are seeking views in the consultation on testing protocols, initially in relation to the pre-movement test, to minimise the risk of moving infected cattle.

Learning from experiences in north Wales, we have a toolkit of measures ready to deploy in hotspot areas if required, to assertively tackle spikes in disease. In the new year, we are strengthening our TB breakdown controls across Wales, and keepers will receive further information beforehand.

Whilst we consider testing arrangements, we recognise the resourcing challenges being faced by the veterinary profession. In response, I am commissioning a review of the options to supplement our veterinary capacity for TB testing through greater use of appropriately trained and supervised paraprofessional staff.

Eight in 10 confirmed breakdowns in the low TB area are primarily attributable to cattle movements. Building on our earlier funding to markets, we continue to urge keepers to take account of TB information when purchasing cattle. We understand not all keepers are offering such information, as demonstrated by the large number of high-risk movements during 2020. We also encourage membership of accreditation schemes, such as TB CHeCS, to promote herd health and give assurance to prospective purchasers.

In 2019, I announced a review of payments made to farmers for cattle slaughtered because of TB. This followed continued year-on-year overspends against the budget, loss of EU income and the need to encourage good farming practice. Options reviewed by the programme board are included in the consultation, and I urge farmers to respond.

A new task and finish group will consider the best ways of communicating with cattle keepers to help them protect their herds, and also throughout a TB breakdown. They will consider the potential role of TB champions in Wales. Farming and veterinary organisations have been approached to nominate members for this group, and I look forward to seeing their recommendations.

I will be phasing out the badger trap-and-test work in persistent herd breakdowns from this year. From an epidemiological perspective, the small sample size and short follow-up period provide limited meaningful results to gauge the impact of interventions on cattle TB. Work will be completed on existing farms, but new ones will not be recruited.

I am keen to explore further the contribution badger vaccination can make to our programme, assessing the most appropriate, cost effective deployment of the badger BCG vaccine. Badger vaccination has been part of our programme since 2012, first deployed in the intensive action area as part of a suite of measures. This has resulted in significant and sustained annual reductions in incidence and prevalence in the IAA. From 2014, we have supported private badger vaccination through a grant and part funded the industry-led initiative on the Gower peninsular. I congratulate Cefn Gwlad Solutions, which has undertaken a huge amount of work to successfully deliver this project.

Funding saved from phasing out the badger trap-and-test work will allow us to build on vaccination efforts, and I welcome the interest shown already in taking forward private projects. I am initially making an additional £100,000 available for expanding badger vaccination across Wales through the grant scheme. I also intend to continue the all-Wales badger-found-dead survey to increase our knowledge on the disease in badgers.

We continue supporting the development of a deployable cattle TB vaccine, with a test to differentiate infected from vaccinated animals to be in place by 2025. It is disappointing no Welsh farms are participating in the trials as yet, and I would encourage interest from the low TB area. Cattle vaccination has the potential to become a powerful tool in the battle against the disease, and we are engaging with the TB centre of excellence to plan its most appropriate deployment in Wales.

Collaboration and partnership working, taking ownership and recognising we all have a role to play are key to the success of our programme. Bovine TB has a devastating impact on the farming industry, with a huge emotional cost. We must do all we can to protect our cattle herds from this disease. I look forward to hearing your views on a refreshed TB eradication programme.

I would like to thank the Minister for giving me advance sight of today’s statement, and I refer to my register of interests. I’d like to begin, firstly, by paying tribute to our farmers across Wales for continuing to feed a nation even in the face of the physical, mental and economic stresses caused by bovine TB. Unfortunately, for some farmers, that continued battle against this horrific disease has been too much and they have taken their own lives. There is undeniably a seriousness to this situation that many outside of rural Wales will not fully understand nor indeed appreciate. Bovine TB casts a long shadow over our farming industry, acting as one of the main barriers to achieving a productive, progressive and profitable agricultural sector. A TB outbreak on a family farm impacts every aspect of that farm's ability to operate a viable business model. And so, we're not just discussing the tragic infection of cattle, but we also need to take into account the livelihoods that are at stake.

Minister, you mention in your statement a 48 per cent decrease in new TB incidents since 2009, but I'd be interested to know what the statistics say about the re-occurrence of the disease within infected herds and how many herds have been classified as TB free after a prolonged period of being under restrictions. Preventing new herds from catching the disease is important, but for those farmers who have long been under TB restrictions, they are the ones bearing the brunt of the economic and mental impact of the disease, and they must not be forgotten about. And whilst I'm grateful for your statement this afternoon, it does come after 13 years of policy that has made slow progress in achieving the ultimate goal of Wales being recognised as an officially TB-free region in the UK.

If I may, I'd like to touch on three specific points in responding to your statement: vaccines, testing and compensation. Your update on the progress Wales is making in establishing a vaccination scheme will, I'm sure, be cautiously welcomed by the sector. However, we must be honest with the agricultural industry: a vaccine will not stop the disease dead in its tracks. If the global pandemic has taught us anything, it's that, even with the common use of a vaccine, a disease can remain prevalent and be transmitted, even if at a lower number. A cattle vaccine will see farmers continue to combat the possible presence of bovine TB in their herd. Therefore, it's important that we aren't presenting the vaccine as the silver bullet to end bovine TB. However, it certainly can be another tool at our disposal. And whilst I welcome the news that the Welsh Government is going to continue to support the development of a deployable cattle TB vaccine, this mustn't hide the fact that we remain several years away from a viable programme—that's at least four years where TB continues to infect our cattle, killing off our livestock and damaging yet another generation of family businesses.

In order to mitigate this, we have to be innovative and ambitious in our testing regime. That means expanding upon the Welsh Government's current testing regime and optimising some of the industry alternatives that are currently available. We already know that the current Welsh Government-endorsed skin test provides false negatives, and this is noted in the refreshed TB eradication programme, as it states it is not possible to fully eliminate the risk of TB spreading through undetected infection. But, by improving testing, it will reduce the number of undetected infections. You mention in your statement that the new consultation will seek views on testing protocols, however no mention on the tests used. I'd like further information from you on the roll-out of these new tests, including Enferplex and IDEXX, to remove false negatives from skin-fold testing.

Finally, compensation. I was concerned to read that the TB payments budget has forecast a £7 million overspend by the end of this financial year. This is a budget that has seen overspend every year since 2015-16. Had the Welsh Government addressed bovine TB, tackled the root cause of the disease sooner, then the overspends would not have happened, as the disease would not have been allowed to spread into all four corners of Wales, seeing 10,000-plus cattle slaughtered in the last 12 months alone.

Minister, I reiterate that we must take strategic long-term decisions when it comes to tackling the impact of this disease. It is irresponsible to not properly fund the compensation scheme to farmers, complain about an overspend and look at ways of reducing payouts to compensate for loss of livestock rather than focus on sustainable ways to reduce the spread of the disease in the first place. I note with interest the three options that are being suggested by the Welsh Government, and, whilst any compensation scheme must reflect value for money for taxpayers, it is just as vital that we settle on a scheme that provides a fair and proportionate TB payment to cattle keepers. I await with interest the outcome of the consultation next spring, but I am worried that we are focusing on how much money can be saved rather than fixing the problem, which is bovine TB.

Minister, you make reference to TB champions in your statement. Could I ask you reconsider this phrasing, please? No-one wishes to champion such a deadly disease, which has caused so much turmoil to farmers across Wales.

Should we want to tackle bovine TB, we must seek to improve the quality of our testing regime, continue to invest in a vaccine roll-out project, and ensure that our farmers are fittingly supported. Minister, you're correct when you say collaboration and partnership are key, but this must be met with equal measures by Welsh Government. And so I urge you, let's not let another 13 years pass; let's work urgently with the industry to implement a full and comprehensive TB eradication strategy that rids Wales of this hideous disease in our cattle and wildlife once and for all. Diolch.

Thank you very much to Sam Kurtz for those questions. It is a horrific disease, I absolutely agree with you, and it is vital that we work in partnership. I would never, ever present one thing within the toolbox as being—I don't like the phrase 'a silver bullet', but that was your phrase. But, it isn't, it is about a suite of measures, and certainly since the five years I've been in portfolio, I came to learn that very, very quickly. When you look at the science, there isn't one thing; if there were, how much easier life would be. There isn't. So, it is about making sure that the measures we have in place are absolutely correct. 

You asked about statistics in your first question and certainly, looking at short-term trends, on 30 June this year, there were 81 fewer herds under movement restrictions compared with the previous year, so the previous 30 June 2020. I think it is really important that we don't read too much into short-term trends, as we do expect short-term fluctuations in the figures. So, I think it's really important that we do have a look at the figures, and I mentioned in my statement around the 48 per cent which you referred to.

I don't agree with you that there's been slow progress. I do think since we have had this programme we have made some significant progress, but of course if you're in a long-term breakdown—that is one over 18 months—that's of very small comfort to you, and I absolutely appreciate that. When we refreshed the programme four years ago, we brought in the bespoke action plans, which I think have helped some farmers. Not all farmers have welcomed it, but I certainly think it has helped them. But I do think it's now time for a refresh and, as you say, in the consultation, we have brought forward several things that we're going to look at, and I'm proposing that we change them.

In relation to the cattle vaccination that you referred to—as I say, I don't think there is any one thing, it has to be a combination—the aim is to have a deployable cattle TB vaccine with a test that can differentiate infected from vaccinated animals by 2025. Certainly, when I met with Professor Glyn Hewinson in the summer in Aberystwyth University, he was very excited about this because he said it's always been 10 years hence, and now it's four years, which I appreciate is quite a long time, but we are getting closer to that. I certainly think the UK Government are keen to have a cattle vaccination, and there is definitely an impetus now, I would say, across the UK. 

I mentioned in my statement that I am disappointed there are no Welsh farms taking part in these trials, they are all English farms at the moment. Anything we can do to encourage farms from low TB areas to participate in these trials would be really good. Certainly, as a Government, we are working closely with DEFRA and the Scottish Government, and there have been about 20 years now of research into this vaccination, and I know the Welsh Government, way before my time, really led on this. 

You asked about skin tests and testing in general. Certainly, the skin test is a long-established test and it's used worldwide. It's the main surveillance test in all, as far as I can see, TB controlled programmes, and it's likely to identify only one false positive animal in every 5,000 of non-infected cattle tested. I'm very keen to look at new testing, and I mentioned it's part of the consultation, and I really look forward to views coming forward around testing. There are tests that aren't validated yet, but again I know my officials have engaged with people around that. I think collectively we all want to improve testing, and this is a real opportunity now to have a look. 

You mentioned the—I think it was the IDEXX antibody test specifically, which as you know is a blood test and it has to be performed between 10 and 30 days after a skin TB test. The high positivity rate in 2020 that we did see is likely to be the fact that we targeted that test, and of course then it's our higher risk animals. So, we have been using it, and the gamma test, in our TB hotspots in north Wales for the first time. So, it's interesting to see the results we are getting there.

In relation to compensation, again, I'm consulting on three options, and I hope you've had time to have a look at the consultation. We are consulting on three options. They've been recommended to me by the programme board. So, I was very keen to have the table valuations plus a top-up for being a member of an accreditation scheme, and then the TB levy. Those three options are set out in the consultation document.

You mentioned the overspend and you're right: it's a demand-led scheme, so, obviously—. I think, every year, we have oversubscribed for it, but, as a Government, we have a statutory duty to pay farmers for animals that have been slaughtered under the programme, and we always find that funding. I reprioritise, I redirect and I divert funding away from it, but we do need to reduce that funding—and, again, it is part of the consultation. So, again, I would urge Members to encourage farmers, certainly, and all their constituents, if they have an interest in this, to participate in the consultation.

May I also thank the Minister for her statement? I will keep this quite brief because I don't want to rehearse many of the things that Sam Kurtz has already said that I happen to agree with. 

Let me start by saying that bovine TB continues to have a destructive impact on agriculture in Wales, not only in terms of its economic impact, but also the emotional and mental health impact that the disease has, as we've already heard. So, clearly, we need a number of different approaches in dealing with this issue, based on local needs and disease status. We must manage the disease in wildlife too, as well as placing restrictions on the movement of animals and testing cattle. 

I welcome the consultation, of course, and it's an opportunity for people to contribute on the basis of their expertise in this complex issue. I welcome the fact that there's been a reduction in the number of cases, but one also must realise that that is just one indicator alone.

You and the First Minister have said on a number of occasions that badger culling is not an option for you, so we have to concentrate on a different approach in working as effectively as possible, whilst reducing any inconvenience to farmers. 

Now, what I would have liked to have seen in this statement is some kind of solution where you acknowledge that there has been an increase in TB cases in certain areas, referring specifically to north Wales, but we're familiar, over a period of 20 years, of areas where there have been spikes from time to time in terms of bovine TB.

In moving forward, I don't understand why there isn't a greater commitment here to vaccinate badgers in those areas that are problematic to us, and why not have a more systematic approach to testing badgers on farms where cases are consistently arising, and linking that to a local vaccination programme. That would have been welcomed, in my view. You referred to a vaccination programme in the Gower area; I would have liked to have heard more about the outcomes of that particular project.

You mention a 'toolkit of measures in hotspot areas'—well, once again, more detail as to what exactly that toolkit includes would be useful.

In terms of compensation, again, I agree entirely with the comments made by Sam Kurtz: cases of TB on farms impact every aspect of farming life—buying and selling livestock and so on. And in our view, the compensation arrangements do have to reflect the individual value of every animal, and only through having individual assessments can we achieve this. So, does the Minister accept that if an animal is not priced according to its own characteristics, then there is a risk of overcompensation or, on the other hand, undercompensation, something that would be very unfair for taxpayers and farmers alike?

But what is central to the statement is that if you are determined to press ahead with the current strategy, it's inevitable that we will see tens of thousands of cattle continue to be slaughtered over the next years, just as we have seen over 30,000 cattle slaughtered over the past three years, yes, 30,000, and the economic and emotional impact of that on farms and farmers.

And in returning to compensation, this inevitably will mean an increase in costs and there's a suggestion that you see this as being unsustainable. Whilst leaving the European Union and losing funds as a result of that could exacerbate the situation, does the Minister accept that it's the responsibility of the Government to balance the books in this area and that we shouldn't expect farmers to pay the bill for having a fair price for those cattle that do have to be slaughtered?

And the last point, Minister, is around vaccination. Where vaccination is available, it has a role to play, clearly, in TB eradication, but it can only be used to prevent and not to cure the disease. Field trials with cattle TB vaccination, as you've already outlined, are under way, and you are hoping an effective vaccine will be available by 2025, so my question is: how confident are you we can achieve this goal, given the low number of farms that are currently participating in the trials?

And my final point is this: by ruling out other measures such as controlling the disease within the wildlife population, is the Minister accepting, therefore, that the Government is content with keeping the situation as static as it is currently for at least another three or four years, which won't reduce the emotional or financial burden on farmers one bit, or reduce the prevalence of the disease to the same extent we've seen in other countries? And my final point as well is the found-dead survey, in my opinion, is ineffective and rather ad hoc and doesn't teach us anything about this disease at all. Diolch yn fawr.

I'll start with the second final point around the survey, I don't—

Sorry. 

No, it's fine. I don't agree with you, I think it has given us some really good evidence, and it should be finishing in February next year, but I have committed to doing it for another two years, because I'm told by our advisers, by the chief veterinary officer and by the scientists that it is absolutely vital that we keep that work going, because they do think it's worthwhile.

But I thank you for your questions, and I do not want to keep it static, of course not, and one of the reasons for bringing in the targets back in 2017 and the regionalisation approach was to get that TB-free status as quickly as possible. Certainly, discussions I had, particularly when we were in the European Union, with people at European agricultural councils, et cetera, was that to achieve that the regionalisation approach would really help us. So, if you could have one area in Wales that could be declared TB-free, what a boost that would be to the rest of Wales. So, I was very keen to bring the regionalisation approach into the TB eradication programme back in 2017, and will certainly be keeping it.

You mentioned spikes in disease over the previous years. The reason I mentioned north Wales is because this is my annual update, and I appreciate, for the Member, this is the first one you have been in the Chamber for, but every year I do commit to a statement. So, whilst I'm also looking at a refresh of the TB eradication programme, because we haven't had one for four years, it is, actually, my annual statement, so that was the reason why I focused on that.

I am aware you're having a technical briefing with the chief veterinary officer, and I'm sure she will certainly be able to provide you with far more detail than I can in the short amount of time I've got got around the Gower project, but it's certainly been very encouraging, and we have used badger vaccination. It's been one of the things that we have had as part of our toolkit since 2012; it's been part of our programme, and it was first deployed, as I said in my original statement, in the IAA, as part of that suite of measures. And we did see a drop in the incidence and prevalence rates in the IAA. And, fortunately, that position has been sustained. 

It is about having that suite of measures that I mentioned. And we have the testing regime, we have the vaccination regime, and I think it's really important to use that word 'partnership' again. And I'm really pleased—I met with the NFU last week, and they've got their own TB focus group now, and it was really encouraging to hear the progress they think they're making within that group. They've had the chief veterinary officer there to talk to them, they've met with Professor Glyn Hewinson to listen to his views, and it's great to have that ownership, and I think it's really important that we continue to work in partnership, because we can't do it on our own and they can't do it on their own; it's about working together. It's also about improved biosecurity, good husbandry, and, of course, we have Cymorth TB, which we fund, and that seeks to provide practical support to our farmers, to our herd keepers who are affected by TB. They provide bespoke veterinary interventions at different stages during the breakdown. I am going to ask the task and finish group that I've announced today to have a look at how we do engage with our farmers and our herd keepers to see what we can do to improve that engagement, to show that it is absolutely a partnership, and I very much recognise that. 

We also work very closely with other Welsh Government departments to offer business continuity advice to farmers and, importantly, their families, because it's not just the farmer, is it, who is impacted; it's the whole family that are suffering in a TB breakdown. And I really would strongly encourage farmers and their vets to take advantage of that bespoke Government-funded veterinary advice programme and for farmers to speak to their private vets about it too, and about how they can access it. And, again, the future of Cymorth TB and any other initiatives that we have will be included within the remit of the task and finish group, and I will ask them to look at that. 

Around your questions in relation to compensation, no, it's for Welsh Government to balance the books. It's my job to make sure I have that funding. I don't expect the farmers to have any part in that. It is absolutely our statutory duty. However, what I do expect is, if someone thinks—. So, the bar now is £5,000, so if you think you've got cattle that are worth more than that, then you should look at insurance. I think that's very important to do. 

The cattle vaccination, as I said in my answer to Sam, is, I think, within reach now—three, four years and I think we will have it. You mentioned there is a low number of farms, and I mentioned there were no Welsh farms, and I really would encourage Welsh farms to participate in the trial, because I want to be part of it. As I say, I work with DEFRA and I work with the Scottish Government, and there are many farms in England involved in the trial, but what I really want to see are some Welsh farms as part of those trials.

Thank you for your annual update, Minister. As the chief veterinary officer notes in the foreword to the consultation document, the eradication programme was always a long road and the long-term trends remain positive. We've allowed the science to navigate and our key stakeholders—farmers, vets and representative bodies—to drive that forward. Successive Welsh Labour Governments have been flexible in adapting the delivery plan, but we did draw a line at badger culling, and I'm proud that the Welsh Government's programme for government forbids the culling of badgers to control the spread of TB in cattle. The UK Government, by contrast, will only start phasing out badger culling in England next year. The Wildlife Trusts estimate that, by the time it ends, 300,000 out of an estimated population of 485,000 badgers may have been killed, wiping out populations in areas they had inhabited since the ice age.

But back to today's statement and back to that long road that you mention—and there has been plenty of talk here this afternoon about the cattle vaccination trial. And, as you said, an effective cattle TB vaccine would be a hugely powerful tool. You've mentioned also that it's only one part of the toolbox. So, I share your disappointment about the lack of participation by Welsh farmers. I'm assuming that you have discussed that with farming unions, and it would be very useful if you could give any update on that, either now or in the near future. Thank you.

Thank you. So, in relation to your comments around our programme for government commitment that we will not permit the culling of badgers as part of the measures to deal with bovine TB, recent scientific studies have not provided conclusive evidence that culling badgers would reduce incidence levels in cattle herds. And you mentioned England, which have killed a huge number of badgers, but now they're withdrawing and backing down from that. And I do think the emphasis on cattle vaccination, which I very much welcome, is because the UK Government are looking at what alternatives they have. And if you look at the areas where they have culled badgers, they still have bovine TB. So, I think that is a very important point.

I have raised the lack of farms—well, no farms—participating in Wales in the trials with both the NFU and the FUW, and I mentioned in my earlier answer to Cefin Campbell that the chief veterinary officer had attended NFU's TB focus group and it was raised there, and I'm sure they will do all they can to encourage farms in the low TB area to participate. 

Thank you, Minister, for today's statement. Minister, as you will be aware, farms throughout north Wales play a huge role in supporting our local economy, communities and indeed our food chain. Many farmers that I've met with in recent months alongside the NFU have raised their concerns of the bovine TB eradication programme simply not being robust enough and not doing enough to deal with the root cause of the problem. And this concern links to the spikes in cases in north Wales, something you've acknowledged in your statement today and something which Mr Campbell referred to earlier in his contribution. Of course, we know the prospect of having to slaughter entire herds of cattle following a TB outbreak is a very real concern for farmers in my region, and, although compensation is available, it does not make up for the business disruption, which could make a farm unviable, let alone the emotional strain on hard-working farmers. So, Minister, what focused support will you provide to farmers in north Wales where spikes in TB have been experienced and how will you work with those farmers to ensure business disruption is kept as low as possible? Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Thank you, and I did refer to the spikes that we've, unfortunately, had, and I certainly was extremely concerned to see that, because I mentioned about the targets that we've set to be bovine TB free. The low TB areas were obviously very important as part of that.

There were the three spikes in Conwy, Denbighshire and Pennal, and we've been working with them. We've introduced enhanced measures, testing et cetera, and we continue to work with them. But I think, again, it's really important to note that eight out of 10 of those outbreaks in those spikes were due to movement of cattle, so it's important that we continue to work, that farmers access that support, that it's available, that guidance and advice that's available, going forward.

Thank you for your statement, Minister. I wasn't really intending to respond to the statement, but I've been sitting here listening intently to what you've had to say, and, fundamentally, nothing has changed, has it, really? You could have delivered that statement 10 years ago, and, in the meantime, of course, we're still culling 10,000 cattle every year. It really smacks of contentment with the situation. So, come on, let's be brave here. Let's be radical. Let's bite the bullet and stop going around in circles. Isn't it time this Government stepped up to the mark and really confronted the issue of TB in wildlife? Because, if you don't, then I bet we'll be back here in another 12 months when you deliver your next annual statement. And do you know what? It'll be 10 years all over again.

So, I fundamentally disagree with probably everything that Llyr Huws Gruffydd said. You talk about wildlife and, absolutely, if you look in the bespoke action plans, one of the the areas that we specifically said we would target with the herds that were in long-term breakdown was the wildlife. And if you look at the bespoke action plans that we brought forward—and I'm trying to remember the percentage, but it's a significant number—wildlife did not play any part in that breakdown. And one of the reasons I'm stopping the test and trap—sorry, the trap and test—of badgers in bespoke action plans in the long-term breakdown is because it really hasn't proved popular. Some farmers didn't want us to do that, and I think that money is better spent on vaccinating badgers. So, I absolutely agree with you about that we must do things, and one of the things we're doing—and I've announced the extra £100,000 today, because that is proving to be very beneficial.

As a farmer's daughter, Minister, I've seen first-hand the devastating impact that bovine TB has had on farmers and our rural communities, and I have to agree with Llyr; it literally feels like groundhog day to me in this Senedd. I stood here responding to a very similar statement back in 2003, hearing very, very similar arguments, and yet I stand here today and I've noted that hardly anything has changed, Minister. It's just not good enough. There has been no substantial progress made at all, and Wales is crying out for a proper solution to bovine TB.

It baffles me, this Government's inherent lack of understanding of our rural communities and what they need. You can use the stats, as we've said today, to back up either side of the argument today, but what faces us all is that there's still a very real problem when it comes to bovine TB. Eleven thousand cattle are being slaughtered per annum for TB control. This is clearly not sustainable, that cattle are slaughtered in these numbers year on year. Vaccinations for badgers, which you seem to think is an answer to this, is too open to supply issue problems and high costs, and doesn't actually, as my colleague Sam Kurtz said earlier, cure the animal of the disease. It isn't a silver bullet, and there's obviously a whole host of things that need to be done collectively in order to tackle bovine TB, as you outlined earlier.

There has been talk of a vaccine for cattle for nearly 30 years now, Minister. I'm very, very pleased to hear you say that progress is finally being made and we seem to be getting somewhere on that, but you said, and I quote, 'I think we'll have it in the future.' 'I think we'll have it'—so, there's no concrete timeline at all. I just wonder if you could give us something a bit more substantial on that, because it is exciting, because that would, I think, make a real difference.

Across the border in England they've been piloting culling badgers recently in certain areas, with a 66 per cent reduction in TB in Gloucestershire; a 37 per cent reduction in TB in Somerset. The First Minister's ruled out culling whilst he's in charge, apparently, but the results are there, Minister. It's working. We have talked and talked and talked, have consulted, consulted, consulted in this Chamber, Minister, but Wales needs hard action. Surely, looking at the results across the border, culling has to form part of the solution now, as we cannot leave the wildlife reservoir unaddressed any longer.

You missed out the word 'collectively'—we need to do this collectively. You seem to be laying all blame at the Welsh Government's feet, and that's absolutely not the case. I specifically said we have to do this in partnership. I haven't got all the answers, Welsh Government hasn't, and farmers haven't either, and it's really important they work collectively.

I didn't say I think we will have it in the future—I said I think we will have it in 2025, and one of the reasons I think we will have it in 2025—and, again, I said, if you'd been listening—is that Welsh Government has really led on the research in relation to that—way before my time, I'm not taking any credit, but Welsh Government has. But DEFRA are now taking a keen interest, and one of the reasons DEFRA are taking a keen interest, in my view, is because they don't think that culling has worked. So, if—you know, you're quoting figures at me. Why are they stopping culling? If it's so successful, why are England backing down and not carrying on with their culling? Why are they looking for something different to do? The reason is because they still have TB in the areas that you just referred to.

So, this TB eradication programme has now gone out to consultation, it's now there for people to put their views to it. I forget who said they didn't think it was robust enough; I think it might have been Llyr. I think it's important now that we hear people's views. But I never said any one thing was—. As I say, I really don't like the phrase 'silver bullet', I'm using the words that you as Conservatives are using, but there isn't one. If there was one, we would have all found it by now, wouldn't we?

One of the things I do think will help is a mandatory informed purchasing system. Certainly, it worked in New Zealand. They tell me that was probably the one thing that worked the best—so, again, out to consultation on that. We gave grant funding and, unfortunately, I don't think markets are providing that information, or maybe it's the purchasers who aren't providing it to the markets so that everybody can make that informed purchase.

And finally, James Evans.

Diolch, Llywydd. There's a close friend of mine who has had their business decimated by TB; I'll just put that as an interest.

Minister, Labour's TB eradication programme has been established for some years, with a long-term goal of eradicating bovine TB. Yet, in Wales, things are not improving, they're getting worse, because you will not take the steps that are needed to tackle the root cause of the problem in infected wildlife. That wildlife has no natural predators in this country. Bovine TB has become a massive industry in its own right, employing vast amounts of civil servants and costing the taxpayer millions of pounds each year. We're now seeing cows in calf and heifers being slaughtered on the yard, whilst the unborn calf inside them kicks out while choking to death. It's not a pleasant experience for anybody to witness and the mental strain that puts on our farmers is huge. 

So, Minister, will you look again at this part of the legislation to allow flexibility to allow calves, if that's wanted, to be born and tested after the mother has given birth? And, also, will you and this Government take the bold steps that need to be taken to address bovine TB in Wales and stop many farming families across our country being devastated by mental health and emotional loss because of bovine TB in Wales? We've been talking about a vaccine for bovine TB since the early 2010s. It's still not here. Please, Minister, please get on with the job, and let's deliver a vaccine and actually something that eradicates TB in Wales.

So, again, I don't think the Member's been listening because I've mentioned several times that we are working with DEFRA, with the Scottish Government, to bring forward a cattle vaccination. And, again, I mention that Glyn Hewinson always said to me he thought it was 10 years in advance, and he really believes, because DEFRA have now put emphasis on this, that we will have it by 2025. But, again, that won't be the one thing; it needs to be a suite of things. The TB eradication programme has brought improvement. I mentioned the figures in my statement. People don't seem to want to accept statistics, so I won't say it again.

Regarding on-farm slaughter, I absolutely agree with you how distressing that can be. I had representations made to me from the industry, and I thought it was really important that we looked to find a solution for on-farm slaughter. And we piloted—and you might be aware of this—farm euthanasia of TB cattle by a lethal injection. It did prove to be very difficult to deliver practically on the farm. You had to co-ordinate vet and haulier presence. There were some farmers who found that even more distressing, they told me, and they preferred to have their cattle shot. So, again, I think it is something that is down to personal choice for the farmer. 

I also found that the pilot did cause delays in removing infected cattle. Of course, we know of the importance of doing that. So, we stopped the pilot after some consideration—I think it was in the summer of last year. I looked at England and what they were doing and they didn't seem to have the same issues that we did, but I think it's because they have extended the react-to-removal time. I think that's contrary to disease control, and certainly that was the advice that I was given by the chief veterinary officer. But I'm very open to look at what we can do, because I absolutely agree with you, that must be one of the most distressing things for a farmer.

I thank the Minister.