The next item, therefore, is the statement by the Minister for Climate Change on building safety, and I call on the Minister to make her statement—Julie James.

Diolch, Llywydd. Thank you for the opportunity to provide a further update to Members on the important issue of building safety. A significant amount of work has been progressed on this most important and complex of issues since I last updated you in July. I'm delighted to inform you that we have today published our response to the building safety White Paper. We received 95 responses, and I thank everyone who took the time to share their thoughts and views. The responses demonstrate commitment to change, wide-scale support for the spirit and direction of our reforms, and to working with us to shape the future regime.

Our intention is to ensure multi-occupied residential buildings have safety built in, not designed out, that responsibilities for those who own, manage and live in buildings are clear, and that residents have their say. I offer my thanks to all those who've contributed to date, but rest assured there will be more opportunities to contribute and shape policy. I'll be writing out to key partners in the new year to invite them to participate in working groups. We are also developing specific work related to engaging with residents and leaseholders who will benefit from our reforms, and to those who are also facing real challenges in the here and now with existing defects in their buildings. This is to ensure their unfiltered views and insights are properly captured and reflected in the new system and we understand how we can best communicate updates on our progress with building passports and related work. We must work together to find the right solutions for this critical area.

As Members are aware, we have taken the opportunity to work with UK Government to utilise the opportunity to ensure that aspects of their Building Safety Bill apply to Wales. This will help improve the way high-rise residential buildings are designed and constructed, and is in line with the proposals we set out in our White Paper. The UK Government Bill includes proposed changes to the Defective Premises Act 1972, which will see extensions to the time within which a claim can be brought before the courts for defective construction work, and will, in certain cases, have retrospective effect. We’ve also worked with the Home Office on the Fire Safety Act 2021, which has seen important reforms for Wales—notably, the external envelope of buildings now expressly comes within the existing fire safety regime.

Following overwhelming support for the proposals in our White Paper, I wrote in September to all local authorities, fire and rescue authorities and the Welsh Local Government Association regarding establishment of a joint inspection team that will support enforcement activities in relation to existing buildings here in Wales. Recruitment of the team will commence in the new year.

All of this means that the future of building safety in Wales will be immeasurably improved. Whilst I'm excited by these developments, I'm very aware that many of you and your constituents are rightly concerned about the challenges currently faced by existing leaseholders. I have said repeatedly that leaseholders should not have to pick up the bill to make good their buildings, but I've also said that the solutions are not easy. Here in Wales, as in some other parts of the UK, we have said all along that this is about much more than cladding, and not just an issue for those in high-rise blocks. In Wales we have always known that this requires a holistic approach, or risks leaving people exposed to ongoing risk. We are making significant progress, being steadfast in our ambition to resolve issues on that holistic basis.

The response to the building safety passport fund, launched earlier this year, has been extremely positive, with over 100 completed expressions of interest received to date. These expressions of interest will be assessed, and the extensive surveys needed on these buildings to ensure we have a consistent and robust understanding of each individual building’s needs and the overall scale of the task will be taken forward. We are appointing contractors through an established pool of accredited providers to undertake the surveys which ensure consistency in expertise and quality of surveys. We are approaching this in a planned and co-ordinated way that provides a comprehensive picture of safety issues present, and reduces stress and inconvenience to residents. The first surveys will commence early in the new year, prioritising those buildings identified through the expression of interest process as higher risk.

However, I recognise that whilst we are making good progress, there are some for whom the financial pressure of living in these buildings is becoming unbearable. I do not want to see people's long-term futures blighted by bankruptcy, eviction and potential homelessness. That is why I'm committing to a new leasehold support scheme to help a small number of leaseholders who find themselves in very significant financial hardship. Full details of the scheme will be provided in the new year, but I hope to be able to provide the option, in a limited number of cases, for leaseholders to sell up. The scheme will target provision where it is most needed in buildings with identified defects where individual leaseholders cannot sell their properties on the open market and find themselves in significant financial hardship due to escalating costs.

I end, Llywydd, by restating my position: developers and those responsible for these building defects must step up and do more to resolve the crisis. They created these problems and continue to leave leaseholders facing financial hardship and suffering from stress and anxiety. This update demonstrates this Government's ongoing commitment to building safety and the intense work that is being progressed. I welcome the commitment to this agenda from Plaid Cymru and look forward to working in partnership with them on this critical issue going forward. Diolch.

Thank you, Minister, for this statement. I think we've all spoken at length about this shocking crisis facing the householders who are now beset with the problems of this cladding. So, I would like to join with you in echoing that the developers and those responsible for these building defects, they've got to step up to resolve this crisis. And if any of them are watching here today, the onus and some responsibility has to fall with you, or with them, and you must accept your responsibilities. It is morally wrong that leaseholders continue to face financial hardship and are suffering from fear, stress and anxiety.

It is also extremely concerning that the Welsh Government does not know the extent of the difficulties in these buildings, but I'm aware, too, of the overwhelming task that you have ahead of you in identifying such. That such ambiguity persists over four years on from the Grenfell Tower catastrophe is really very worrying and it raises questions as to the speed with which, Minister, you are able to look to improve the safety of approximately 148 high-rise buildings.

You have explained that there have been 100 responses to the building safety passport fund and that the first surveys will commence early in the new year. So, my question is: how soon can we expect any results and actioning of any recommendations, as in surveys? What back-up plan do you have in place for instances where a building is not covered by an expression of interest? I do agree with the need for a leasehold support scheme and, again, we'll have further details of this in the new year. Could you possibly explain today how much funding you intend to allocate to the scheme?

I also welcome the fact that the response to the building safety White Paper has now been published. Previously, I made clear that there are many changes in the consultation that I welcome, but I still have some concerns on a number of points. In relation to risk categories, you'll be aware I wrote to you, noting that I was concerned as to the reasonableness of having a house that is converted into two flats in the same category as a five-storey, purpose-built block of flats. So, as part of your commitment to consider the appropriateness of a three-category model, would you consider splitting category 2 in two—so, making it more broader?

I also agree with all categories requiring annual fire-risk assessments. However, again, I raise these concerns about access to suitably qualified persons. Your team has previously advised me that there are no estimates as yet as to how many suitably qualified individuals there are in Wales to assess around 37,000 properties annually. Has there been any progress on establishing if there is a shortage, and how are you looking to address this?

I am interested in the gateways, but remain concerned about the possibility that the third would see the principal contractor, with the principal designer, produce a final declaration confirming that the building complies with building regs. And, as part of your further consideration of this matter, will you commit to amending the proposals so as to ensure that physical checks are undertaken by local authorities, and that the risk posed by what we now know to be some rogue builders—and let's say it, because that's what they are—is reduced?

Finally, you will be aware that the existing regulatory oversight in Wales is split between the three fire and rescue authorities and the 22 local ones. I have spoken perhaps of us having a single national regulator, and was pleased to read that a national approach to the regulator did receive more support than local and regional delivery mechanisms. Going forward, will you undertake further work to create a single national regulator? Thank you. Diolch, Llywydd.

Thank you, Janet Finch-Saunders. I think, broadly, we're in the same place. You've slightly conflated the problems of the existing leaseholders with what the new regime might look like. So, just in terms of the new regime going forward, once we take the legislation through, of course the Senedd and its committees will have a chance to look at that legislation, scrutinise it and add in or suggest amendments to that legislation. And I think there's quite a big consensus across the Senedd, so I'll be looking forward to working with you to get into the real detail of that as we take that forward. But, absolutely, the whole purpose of the new regime is to make it extremely plain who the duty holders are, who is responsible at each stage, who does the sign-off and what happens for the occupation phase. Technology has moved on and so on and we would be expecting a great deal of more as-you-go inspection than has been hitherto possible, and, of course, we're going to learn the lessons of the past. So, I think, going forward, there's a lot of consensus.

In terms of where we are at the moment, one of the biggest problems that we have is that ordinary leaseholders don't understand what's wrong with their buildings—they know there's nothing with them—and the EWS forms have made that worse because we've had surveys undertaken. So, part of what we've had to do is we've had to act as broker for them, if you like, to make sure that the expertise goes in, and we don't exacerbate the problem by having a pile of people who aren't really qualified telling them what's wrong with the building and so on. It seems like we're going quite slowly, but actually that's quite a difficult and arduous thing to do. And also, these inspections are not just somebody coming in and having a look at your walls; these are really invasive. The people have to have big holes made in the building and you have really highly skilled people looking to see exactly what's happened inside the walls and all the rest of it. These are things that are quite intrusive for people as they take place, so we have to be absolutely certain that we're doing it once, we're doing it correctly and we get the right picture at the end.

The truth is that we don't know what the problem in all of the buildings is because we haven't got x-ray vision; we can't look through to see if the fire breaks are all in place or if the compartmentation works and so on. We've been clear all along that this isn't just about the cladding. The cladding was one issue, but there are lots of other issues that have come to light. So, I'm really pleased that the building passport scheme will allow us to do that. It will allow us to help the leaseholders and other interested parties go through the process of discovering what exactly it is that's wrong with the building, and then we'll have to look to see what of that can be rectified by a Government scheme to do that—a grant scheme, if I can possibly manage to do that.

But also, Janet, I'm very aware that I don't want to just do a first come, first served, so we're going to try and rank them in order of risk as well, because I don't have an unlimited pot. We won't get into the politics of that, but I'm disappointed by the amount of money that we have as a result of all—. We didn't get the consequentials that were announced by the UK Government, and now we're the other side of a comprehensive spending review. So, we are where we are, but it's not the sum of money we would have liked to have had. So, it's very important to make sure that we cover off the highest risk buildings and the highest risk issues across the piece, rather than just first come, first served. I want to reassure all the leaseholders out there that we are doing that, and if you're the twentieth to go through the process, that doesn't mean the money will have run out, and that we'll be keeping an eye on that all the way through.

And the reason I've announced the scheme I've announced today is because I'm very aware that for some people it's just become unbearable. So, assuming that they're in a position where they can't sell their property on the open market, then we are going to put a scheme in place that will rescue them, if you like—mortgage rescue for them. That will have two components. They will either be able to sell the house to us and then if they want to stay on and rent it, they can, or they can vacate, take the money and start again somewhere else. I know from speaking to large numbers of the residents that there are a lot of people who will be very interested in a scheme of that sort. So, I wanted to make people aware that that scheme is now available, and that we will be looking to do that in the new year via a similar expressions of interest kind of process.

Good afternoon, I hope that everyone can hear me. Yes, there we go, and thank you very much to the Minister for her statement. Let's take a moment to remind ourselves why we are continuing to discuss this issue today. Put simply, the current building safety system is one that has enabled a culture of cutting corners to maximise profit at the expense of public safety.

We can never forget that Grenfell disaster back in 2017. In the early hours of the morning of 14 June 2017, a fire took hold of the 24-storey residential tower in west London, and 78 people were killed. Our thoughts remain with their loved ones, of course.

A number of those who managed to escape, the families of those who lost their lives and those who witnessed that horror are still living with the scars and continue to suffer. People are living in fear and they've put up with that fear for four years without action being taken. Eight months have passed since the election, eight months without specific Welsh legislation. Leaseholders and tenants have been trapped in properties from which they cannot move. Their quality of life and their mental health have declined as a result. It’s about time that we responded to this nightmarish situation through a comprehensive programme of reform, the provision of further financial support and a clear timeline.

As my party’s spokesperson for housing an planning, I want to take a moment to welcome the co-operation agreement between Plaid Cymru and the Government. The agreement includes a variety of commitments, including commitments to reform the current building safety system significantly, and to introduce the second phase of the Welsh building safety fund. I very much look forward to working with the Minister, moving forward. However, I regret the fact that this statement did not come sooner, and I emphasise the need for the Government to keep in regular contact with stakeholders. After all, it is the pressure of campaigners and politicians such as Rhys ab Owen that has ensured that this issue is receiving this attention at last.

I would like to turn to one aspect of the statement where I believe that more detail is required. The Minister referred the mortgage buy-out scheme, a scheme that enables people facing financial hardship who live in high-rise buildings where safety problems have been identified to apply for a scheme whereby the Government will purchase the flat and give it to a social landlord. It appears that there is no clear sense of how many people may be eligible for the scheme, just a reference to individuals facing financial hardship, nor will the scheme be up and running for at least three months. 

So, I would like to ask the Minister to explain how many people will be eligible for this scheme. Llywydd, what exactly does the Government mean when it says people facing 'significant financial hardship'? In other words, what are the criteria for this particular category? Also, when does the Minister expect this scheme to be operational, exactly, please? What support can the Government provide then to those suffering as a result of building safety issues in the meantime? And what about those people who don’t fit into the Government’s definition of financial hardship?

Again, bearing in mind the part of your statement that refers to current leaseholders and the hope that support will be provided to purchase their properties in the new year, there is scant additional detail. So, can the Minister give a little bit more detail, please, on how much funding will be allocated for this scheme?

It's clear that problems may arise regarding property prices, as we've recently seen. So, what will happen, and what solutions can the Welsh Government offer, if people do not agree with the market value when selling their property? And who exactly will administer this process? Finally, what rights will tenants have who rent from a landlord with a lease? Thank you very much.

Diolch, Mabon. I won't repeat what I said to Janet Finch-Saunders in terms of the timing of this. It's obviously very frustrating, and we all have in mind the tragedy of Grenfell and the fight of the people who survived that for justice, of course, but the truth is that this is an incredibly complex area of law, and it's been at the very top of my agenda the entire time I've been housing Minister. I certainly don't need to have it put there by anyone else.

It's been a real matter of concern to us to get this right, to not be announcing schemes that don't work, which has happened across the border on a number of occasions, and that don't solve the problem. And also, we've been working very hard on lobbying UK Government to put a number of things in place that only the UK Government can do. So, as part of my statement today, for example, I'm talking about the extension of the limitation period for contractual action for those who are able to take advantage of that, and I'm very glad to see that, although that certainly will not solve the problem for all of the buildings that we have, especially those built with a special purpose vehicle model attached to them. 

As I said to Janet Finch-Saunders, we've been working very hard on making sure we have a scheme that allows us to look holistically at each building, that allows us to understand exactly what its problems are and what it would take to put it right. And then also, frankly, to understand what the need for the contractors with the skills to do that is, and not have everybody trying to get them all at once, just skewing the market and driving the price up. So, we're stepping in. It's a responsibility that isn't really ours, but actually I feel very strongly that we'll be able to help the leaseholders to navigate the construction remediation phase of that, because otherwise there is a whole host of problems that can immediately be seen by all of us. So, although I understand entirely the frustration of the leaseholders, I think we're in a good place going forward for that, and I look forward to the analysis of the building passports coming forward. 

In terms of the buy-out scheme, or the leaseholder support scheme, I don't entirely know the answer to all of your questions, Mabon. What we want to do is we want to see, in honesty, how many people have attempted to sell their house on the open market and have failed to do so because it puts them into negative equity or because the terms on which they're able to do so are too punitive for them to be able to countenance that. I want to be able to see what we can do to help people who are going into mortgage arrears, for example, or have other severe financial difficulties because they've managed to pay their mortgage but, as a result, they have other financial difficulty. I'm prepared to look at people who are clearly in overcrowded situations as a result of having had to stay, perhaps, in a premises that was intended as a starter home and now they're a larger family. There are a number of areas of hardship that we're prepared to look at. 

We are looking at valuations that will be done by the valuation office, in the same way as we do for compulsory purchase valuation. But, of course, this isn't compulsory. If the person involved doesn't like the valuation that we're able to offer, it's not mandatory in any way for them to take part in the scheme. This is an offer from the Government for those people who wish to take advantage of it. If a person doesn't wish to take advantage of it, that's entirely a matter for them. I was very keen to ensure that, for those people who wanted to stay in their home but just found it to be financially impossible given where they are with valuations and so on, they could do so, and if not, that they were able to start again elsewhere. 

The new scheme will be up and running for the new financial year. That's when the budget will be available, but it will take us the few months in between that to sort out the application process and to start to process people who want to be part of that. This isn't the sort of thing that you can just announce today and start tomorrow; we've got to work alongside our stakeholders to get that in place. But I also was very keen to announce it before Christmas, because I think people who are feeling desperate need to know that that relief is coming and start to look forward to being able to take advantage of it. I think I would be disingenuous, Llywydd, if I said that I had all of the answers to the questions that Mabon asked, but I am looking forward to working with the leaseholders themselves to work out what the optimal scheme would be to get to the most people who need the help. 

This is something that I've asked for over a period of time; it's a matter of serious concern. Like the Minister, who has got the development on the other side of the river, I've got the SA1 development, where a number of these properties are. One of the biggest problems, though, Minister, is that some of these were built by organisations that have gone out of business, such as Carillion, which built some of them. The difficulty of getting any money out of them, even if we had the ability to do so, is something that is a matter of concern. As I said, I very much welcome the proposal. I think that the Minister is certainly moving in the right direction on this. But are you going to give us further updates as we move forward? Whilst there is some money in the pot, it's certainly not going to be enough, is it, to solve the problems of everybody in one of these properties. You talked about how you're going to look to prioritise not the date people apply but reaching the people who are most in need. I very much welcome that, but will you be able to contact, or will one of your officials be able to contact, those in the two areas in my constituency, at South Quay and Altamar, where we've got a large number of people there, just to talk them through it? They've had your statement today, because I've sent it to them, but will your officials be able to talk to them and explain to them exactly where they are, and how they are going to be affected?

Diolch, Mike. Yes, of course, we'll be able to do technical briefings for residents in buildings to assist them to apply in the same way we have done for the building passport scheme. We're very keen to make sure that people understand the full range of help and assistance that is available to them. Also, of course, as part of the expressions of interest, we're able to make some preliminary moves towards understanding the level of risk that the building has. I just wanted to be really clear that it's not just at the point in time we start to do the invasive investigations that we'll be able to understand the level of risk; many of the leaseholders already have some idea of some of the issues that they face. So, we're able to make some preliminary views straight away when the passports are completed. We want to be able to make sure that we're looking at the worst problems first, all the way through.

Also, it's fair to say that not all buildings will be able to have all of their problems fixed in one go. Lots of these things need to have several attempts at them. Because of the way that the system is held onto the wall, you have to take the cladding off first, and then the system off, and then do the invasive investigations and all the rest of it. So, it's much more complex than just coming in, fixing the building, and leaving again, I'm afraid. So, we will be working with many of these buildings for a long time into the future, and I'm sure that there will be many iterations of this conversation.

I am very happy, Llywydd, to undertake to update the Senedd once we know the exact level of building passports that have gone through the process, and indeed once we start having expressions of interest for the leaseholder support scheme. I'm very committed to making sure that the Senedd is updated as often as is necessary to make sure that we get the information out, and I'm very grateful to MSs across the Chamber for getting this information out to their residents in the way that Mike Hedges has just described.

Thank you, Minister. That's a really positive statement, and I thank you for your commitment to getting this right. This isn't a political matter; this is something we just all want to address and make better for the residents who've been suffering so much. I recognise the good work that the Welsh Government and the UK Government have been doing to address this. It is, as you said, an extremely complex issue and it's not going to be solved overnight, but I'm pleased we're moving in the right direction. Mabon asked some of the questions I would have asked, and you've explained that, and I understand that you haven't got all the answers now, but we will learn more about the scheme as it rolls out in the spring.

There is another point that is linked to all of this that I would like to raise, though, Minister, and it's regarding land transaction tax that is being charged on home purchases. One of my constituents has got a prominent premises in the Celestia development. They bought a new family home with their partner back in 2019, and were in the process of selling their flat that they'd purchased themselves. They were selling that to help fund their next home, with no intention of having a second home at all. However, due to issues with obtaining that EWS1 certificate, with the developer of the apartment block confirming that there are compliance issues with fire safety regulations, the constituent was unable to sell the flat. This meant that they were charged a higher rate of land transaction tax, as they were deemed to have owned a second property. This higher rate was equivalent to around £12,000 more than they would have originally been charged had this issue not existed. To make matters worse, it's unlikely that they will be able to reclaim the higher land transaction tax charge, as remediation work is likely to take a substantial amount of time, and so any future sale is likely to be past the three-year window for reclaiming the higher rate of land transaction tax.

I understand in England that the UK Government has decided to allow an extension to the period of time in which stamp duty land tax can be reclaimed due to fire safety issues causing problems in sales. Minister, is this something that you could consider introducing at least as a short-term measure to help out homeowners who are being held back by these sorts of issues? It's something, I think, that would be a way to ease some of those further pressures that some are facing. Thank you for that.

Diolch, Peter. I can see that my colleague the Minister for finance is listening to your question there. It's in her portfolio, but I can confirm that we've had some preliminary discussions about whether or not a lengthening of the time period to sell the house where it's clearly a bridging arrangement could be contemplated. We haven't reached the end of those discussions yet, but I'm very happy to update you once we have.

Thank you very much to the Minister for her statement.

I, like Mike Hedges also, sent out your statement to many campaigners here in Cardiff Bay, and the responses I've had have all welcomed this statement by you. They're grateful that you've once again reiterated that leaseholders will not be picking up the bill. I'm grateful to you for mentioning that there will be some further technical assistance for leaseholders to navigate this process.

I appreciate you mentioned in response to Mabon ap Gwynfor that nobody needs to remind you of the time that has passed since Grenfell, but that is what residents mention all the time—time is a critical factor for them. I look forward to working with you, Minister, and with the residents, to ensure that there will be fit-for-purpose support available as soon as possible, because that's what they desperately need to know—when they'll be able to receive assistance from the fund.

I also look forward to working with Janet Finch-Saunders, Peter Fox, and I know Andrew R.T. Davies has been very vocal about this in the past—those within the Conservative Party—to ensure proper support from the UK Government. This is far too important to be turned into political ping-pong. We have seen, haven't we, recently, the tragic consequences in the English channel when two Governments do not work together effectively. Let that be a warning for us for cladding, let that be a warning for us for coal tips. These are dangerous matters that should not be turned into political ping-pong. So, I look forward to working with those on the Conservative benches to lobby the UK Government for proper support.

Naturally, Minister, I welcome your promise of support for a small number of leaseholders who are struggling with significant financial hardship. I'm glad that support has been given to people whose long-term futures are blighted by potential bankruptcy, eviction and potential homelessness. Yet there are many others, as you mentioned in response to one of the contributions, who are stranded—as you mentioned, growing families, pensioners who want to move down to the ground floor, people suffering severely with mental health issues. Only recently, Minister, I had an e-mail about a leaseholder who had tragically killed himself due to the mental strain he was suffering. As far as I'm aware, he didn't face bankruptcy, eviction or homelessness, but still could not see any other way out. I'm glad that you said in your response to Mabon ap Gwynfor that you will take a broad view about those who are struggling, who have had significant financial hardship.

Leaseholders remain concerned about being burdened with additional regulatory costs associated with any future building safety regime. I hope that's been taken into account with your plans, Minister, and that you can guarantee that residents will not face any additional cost due to work on building safety. The building safety Bill that you mentioned will mean that residents will still have to foot the bill, and I don't think the extension of the limitation period you also mentioned in your statement will probably make any real difference to the vast majority of those affected. They will still be unable to financially take on these large developers. As Mike Hedges mentioned, a lot of these developers are not in business anymore. Some were in fact created specifically to build a development, and then were liquidated and were wound up.

The Minister finished her statement strongly, saying that developers, and those responsible for those building defects, must step up and do more to resolve this crisis. I can't agree more, Minister. How will you get them to step up? Will they be called out? Will they be named and shamed, and will Government and local government use their significant procurement power to ensure that the developments that do not step up, the developments that don't take responsibility for this terrible scandal, will no longer win public sector contracts or support? Diolch yn fawr.  

Diolch, Rhys. I welcome your support. In the previous Senedd, we had good cross-party working. Janet Finch-Saunders and our colleague David Melding, in particular, took an interest, and I'm absolutely certain that when the Bill comes forward, we'll be able to work collegiately across the Chamber on putting the very best safety regime in place for the future in Wales. As you rightly say, in the meantime, we wrestle with the legacy of the very poor regime that was in place that's caused all of these difficulties and, frankly, the absolutely appalling standard of workmanship and the cowboy gung-ho approach to safety that's clearly evidenced from many of these buildings. I am very grateful to the developers who have come forward and who have put at least some money on the table for some of the developments in Wales to begin the process of remediation. There are a number who have not. I am taking legal advice as to what exactly it is we can do about the ones that have not. You will be very familiar with the fact that many of these developments are put up by single-purpose vehicle companies; they aren't necessarily the holding company. It's very difficult to say that that particular company can't do work going forward, because you'll discover very quickly that, legally, it isn't the same company, and so on. So, it's very attractive, the proposition you put to me, but it turns out to be extremely difficult to do in practice, as I say, as these companies pop up all over the place and disappear again just as quickly.    

Mike will be very well aware in Swansea of one particular case that could genuinely be used as an exam question on what can go wrong, because both the original builder, the second builder, all the insurers and several holding companies after that have all gone bankrupt, one after the other. So, it is really a lesson in how not to do building. We'll have all of those lessons very much in front of us when we look at our new regime but, in the meantime, we are left trying to sort out the labyrinthian twists and turns of the current situation, and that is why here in Wales, instead of having a blanket approach, we very much looked at it on a building-by-building basis, because each one of them is unique and different and, unfortunately, the complexity of that is why it's taking so long, and not because it's not right at the top of our agenda, I can assure you. Even right down to how we get the surveyors to come in and do the buildings in a sequential way that means that the price doesn't go through the roof as a result of market forces, and so on, has been a complexity. So, I assure you I am very keen to work across the Chamber on both of these aspects. 

In terms of the UK Government, I'm very disappointed that we haven't been able to get clarity on some of the announcements they've made. But, more recently, we've worked very well together on a number of aspects of leaseholder reform, and so on, the subject of a legislative consent motion later on today. It is very important to understand that leasehold is one of the most complicated areas of devolution, with some of it devolved and some of it not devolved, and the ragged edges of devolution being very evident. So, having to navigate your way through all of that is something I really feel sorry for the leaseholders in doing, and that's why I'm very happy to offer as much technical briefing as we can to help people navigate these very stormy waters.     

Chair of the Local Government and Housing Committee, John Griffiths. 

Diolch, Llywydd, and thank you, Minister, for your statement. Our committee has agreed that building safety is a key priority over this Senedd term. We have already considered the LCM on the building safety Bill and will be reporting on that shortly, and we also expect to be scrutinising a Welsh Government Bill, of course, during this Senedd term. Our predecessor committee, which I also chaired, responded to the Welsh Government's consultation on the 'Safer Buildings in Wales' White Paper at the end of the fifth Senedd. So, I very much welcome the progress that you've set before us today, Minister, and the publication of the responses to the White Paper. It is vital that the issues raised in the responses are addressed going forward. I wonder if you could say a little bit more, Minister, about the Senedd building safety Bill, perhaps including some idea of the timetable that will be involved. And one thing we're very aware of as a committee is that, obviously, people do feel very strongly that they should be able to feel safe in their own homes, and that's of utmost importance to them. And that's why building safety has been such an urgent priority for all of us, including the committee, since the Grenfell tragedy. We are still as a committee receiving correspondence from residents frustrated by the slow progress in completing the remedial work and paying for that work.

You've mentioned working with residents and leaseholders. Minister, I wonder if you could just say a little bit more about that, because that engagement with residents and other stakeholders is absolutely key, and it's their input that will be crucial in ensuring that future measures do meet their needs. So, if you could say a little bit more about the engagement work that Welsh Government has undertaken and how their views will actually feed into future policy development, Minister, I would be grateful. And just finally, getting back to the developers, I know that you hosted a round-table event in the autumn, and as we touched upon already, you expressed a willingness, I think, to make public those developers that were not willing to join the discussion. I wonder if you could again say a little bit more about that, and what will be in the public realm. Diolch yn fawr.

Diolch, John. I admire your committee's constant asking of me about timetables for the Bill, but I'm afraid my answer is the same as the one I gave in committee, which is that we will negotiate the timetable when the Bill is introduced with yourselves, and that we hope to have the maximum time for scrutiny at the committee stage in particular, because I really do want to make sure that this Bill is consensual across the Chamber, if at all possible. So, I will certainly be coming to the committee with a timetable in due course when we have the agreement all set out, and I really absolutely commit to wanting to have the maximum amount of time for the committee to look at the Bill and make sure that we get that consensus across the piece.

We've done a lot of engagement on the White Paper already, and we had a large number of respondents to that, but the responses also acknowledged that there were areas that needed more scoping, refinement and clarification, so we're just in the process of inviting key partners to continue to work with us on developing some of those proposals and to join expert working groups that will be starting up in the new year, to just refine those proposals. So, I assure you that we're very keen on having both the inspection industry, the actual property owners, and the leaseholders' voices all very prominent in that debate, to make sure that we get the regime just right. And I'll just remind you that it's phased, the regime, so it's in the design, construction and occupation phase that this will come forward. So, I'm very happy to commit to that. I'm very happy to keep the committee updated and indeed the Senedd updated, as those negotiations go forward.

Finally, Jenny Rathbone.

Thank you, Llywydd. Minister, I know you're aware of my enthusiasm for tightening Part L of the building regulations so that all new buildings are fit for purpose in our climate-threatened world. It's the biggest investment that most people ever make, and they really don't deserve developers dumping hidden costs onto them and encouraging them to buy buildings that aren't fit for purpose in either the safety or the fuel efficiency of the building. So, I absolutely support, as I'm sure everybody does, that we ensure that these multi-occupied buildings have safety built in, not designed out. As it's over four years since the Grenfell disaster, what changes have been made to building regs as well as the monitoring required to ensure that the plans are constructed to the approved specification so that anyone who's buying a home today doesn't have to go through the agony people living in these sick buildings have had to endure for all these years?

Thank you very much, Jenny. I'm certainly well aware of your enthusiasm for Part L, which we are hoping to bring forward early next year, and particularly in terms of the energy efficiency of homes, and so on. Of course, building regulations cover a lot more than just energy efficiency; they cover a whole series of aspects of safety, as you've just outlined. And we have made one or two changes to that, so, obviously, we outlawed various types of cladding very early on after the Grenfell fire, as did England. There have been a number of tweaks of that sort as we've gone along, but we haven't made any comprehensive changes yet, because we are planning to do so as a result of the White Paper. And we are completely changing the entire regime; this is not tweaking, this is an utterly different qualitative difference. It was the subject of many a debate in the fifth Senedd and we'll be in a position very shortly to be able to get that scrutiny going here in the sixth Senedd.

In terms of making sure that the buildings that are being constructed now are fit for purpose, I can assure you that we've had long conversations with various inspectorates about the best way of doing that, but I fear that we are probably having some buildings built right now that will have similar problems if the developers do not step up to the task of making sure that they step up to their responsibilities. And that's one of the reasons we've been working with the UK Government on their Bill, because only the UK has the power to change the liabilities clauses and the limitation periods on contract law, which is what you're talking about there. And that's one of the difficulties of this area of law, because some of it is not devolved, some of it's reserved and some of it isn't. So, we've been trying to navigate that as we go along. So, the UK Government has, as I said in my statement, recently committed to extending the limitation period for people who are about to go into occupation of a building, so they will have 30 years to take the developer to task in future.

There will be other things that need to be done, so we will be working very hard with conveyancing and estate agent professionals in order to ensure that the information that people get when they buy their property is fit for purpose. And that includes all of the issues around leaseholding, charges and responsibilities as well, Jenny, both before and after the White Paper. Obviously, after the White Paper, it will be a lot simpler and more straightforward. 

Thank you, Minister.