Item 7 today is the debate on the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee's report, 'Inter-Institutional Relations Agreement between Senedd Cymru and the Welsh Government'. I call on the committee Chair, Huw Irranca-Davies, to move the motion.

Motion NDM7870 Huw Irranca-Davies

To propose that the Senedd:

Notes the report of the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee, 'Inter-Institutional Relations Agreement between Senedd Cymru and the Welsh Government', which was laid in the Table Office on 18 November 2021.

Motion moved.

The inter-institutional relations agreement between the Senedd and the Welsh Government, freshly remade for this sixth Senedd, is not as bland or as niche as its title may suggest. It is an important agreement, relevant to all Senedd committees and applicable to all Welsh Ministers.

While my committee, building on the work of its predecessor, has taken the lead, the agreement represents the settled position on the information that the Welsh Government will provide to the Senedd as a whole with regard to Welsh Ministers' participation in the formal, ministerial-level inter-governmental meetings, the agreements, concordats, and the memorandums of understanding. Such information is becoming more and more vital to us as Senedd Members in monitoring and understanding the work of the Welsh Ministers in a UK context.

Now, as I just briefly mentioned, our predecessor committee in the fifth Senedd recommended to the Welsh Government that it enter into an agreement that would support the Senedd’s scrutiny of the Welsh Government in its inter-governmental dealings. The Welsh Government agreed, and some Members will know that the first iteration of this agreement was put in place and formally noted by the fifth Senedd in March 2019.

One of the first things our committee did, very soon after our formation, was to set about establishing a new agreement with the Welsh Government that was fit for purpose in this, our sixth Senedd. I am very pleased that the First Minister was equally open to the agreement’s continuing existence, and that we have been able to bring this new version to the Senedd before 2021 comes to a close. I would also like to take this opportunity to note for the record that while discussions on a new agreement took place, the Welsh Government nevertheless met the requirement in the original agreement and laid an annual report on 28 September, which is commendable, and is to be welcomed.

The agreement establishes three principles that will govern the relationship between the Senedd and the Welsh Government with regard to inter-governmental relations. These principles are transparency, accountability and respect for the part that confidential discussions must play between governments. The Welsh Government has recognised the Senedd’s primary purpose of scrutinising the activity of the Welsh Government. In return, as we in the Senedd obviously acknowledge, there will be sometimes a need for confidential inter-governmental discussion between the Governments within the UK. So, the agreement seeks to ensure that the principles of the Welsh Government’s accountability to the Senedd, and transparency with regard to these relationships, are now built into inter-governmental relations and mechanisms.

I would also like to draw the Senedd’s attention to a further commitment from the First Minister that has been included in our report on the agreement. This commitment builds upon a protocol that was in place between our predecessor committee and the Welsh Government in the fifth Senedd. The First Minister has now agreed that the Welsh Government will write to my committee and to other relevant Senedd committees to inform us of any intention to consent to the UK Government exercising a delegated legislative power in a devolved Welsh area and, again, this is really commendable. And where time allows, the Welsh Government has also committed to provide an opportunity for the Senedd to express a view before consent is given. Furthermore, the Welsh Government will lay a statement in relation to every exercise of a delegated legislative power by a UK Minister in a devolved area to which the Welsh Ministers have given consent, explaining the rationale for that consent, and this will normally be done within three working days of the laying before or notification to the UK Parliament.

So, while my committee will continue to take the lead on monitoring the implementation of the agreement and the Welsh Government’s compliance with its terms, I would encourage other Senedd committees to become familiar with it, and the potential implications and benefits for their scrutiny work. And can I, in closing, thank my committee members, colleagues on the committee, for their diligence in this matter, and the clerking team as well who've been excellent in this regard, but also my thanks to Welsh Government as well for the way that they've worked with us in bringing forward this agreement? Diolch yn fawr iawn. 

To confirm, the Welsh Conservative group will be supporting the motion before us today, and I speak in this debate today as someone who sits on the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee. In that regard, can I thank the Chair for his opening statement, but also for his leadership of the committee? It's great working with you, Huw. Inter-governmental and inter-institutional relations are often complex and confusing things. The sheer number of the structures  that are in place and the nature of the discussions that are held within them can make things difficult to follow, even for us here in the Chamber, never mind for members of the public. Adding things like Brexit, the pandemic and the sheer amount of agreements and legislation can sometimes leave this place feeling as if it's being bypassed at times, not intentionally, but sometimes it's almost like we are chasing our tail a little bit.

And this is why I believe that this agreement between the Welsh Parliament and the Welsh Government is important. This Parliament has always held scrutiny and accountability in high regard, and this agreement is a step forward in the right direction. Whilst ensuring that the necessary confidentiality arrangements are in place, it ensures that the Welsh Ministers are required to notify this place when devolved competencies are exercised by UK Ministers. This enables us to scrutinise decisions and improves Government transparency.

What I do want to say, however, is that we have to be more mindful of how we approach debates about inter-governmental relations. I know things can be difficult and can get rather fraught, and there are things by all Governments that can be done better. But, too often, we can get caught up in politics and rhetoric, rather than how we can work together to achieve our common goals, and there are more of these goals than what some in this Chamber perhaps believe. Recovering from the pandemic should be at the forefront of everything that Governments of all colours should be focusing on, and it's right that we in Wales look to engage constructively with partners from across the UK, and that this place supports and challenges this working.

Llywydd, I close my contribution by welcoming the opportunity for the debate this afternoon, and I thank once again the Chair for bringing it forward. Thank you.

I welcome this agreement between the Senedd and the Welsh Government. At a time when inter-governmental relations are often very poor, to put it mildly, it is so important that the Senedd is fully aware of what's going on. I hope the Senedd can co-operate with Welsh Government to try and improve inter-governmental relations.

As I mentioned yesterday in the fire safety debate, it is the people of Wales that suffer when there is a breakdown between the Welsh and the UK Governments. We have seen, haven't we, recently, in the English channel, the tragic consequences when two Governments put politics in front of people. I do not want to see a second Grenfell Tower happen in Cardiff Bay or in Swansea whilst politicians are still squabbling about who pays for fire safety work. I don't want to see a second Aberfan happening whilst politicians are politicising coal tips instead of getting on with it and clearing this scar from our landscapes.

Yes, as Huw Irranca-Davies mentioned, inter-governmental relations can appear to be a dry subject. I don't expect Members to show much interest in formal inter-governmental agreements, common frameworks, concordats, memoranda or other resolutions. But they are reflective of the relationship between Governments, whether it is constructive, obstructive or even at times destructive. This makes a huge difference to the lives of the people of Wales. I therefore welcome this agreement, because it provides us in the Senedd with the two cornerstones of our democracy: transparency and accountability. It will create greater transparency and therefore enable further scrutiny—our most important role as non-governing Members of the Senedd, as Alun Davies quite rightly stressed in the last debate.

This agreement covers memoranda of understanding. As Members will know, these are not binding on the current Government, let alone successive Governments. They come into existence without any real scrutiny, and often should be in a piece of legislation rather than in a non-binding agreement between two executives. That's why it is so important that the Government is transparent about their existence and that there is an opportunity to challenge their contents. As part of this agreement, I welcome the Welsh Government's commitment to maintain a dedicated page on its own website providing all relevant formal inter-governmental agreements of all kinds that are in place between them and the UK Government. I don't for one minute imagine that the traffic to that page will be high, but it's important that they are there. It's important that they are accessible.

I'm glad that this agreement provides an opportunity for the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee, and the Welsh Government, to suggest amendments to the agreement during this Senedd. Inter-governmental relations can change very quickly, and I sincerely hope that things will improve when the Westminster Government finally realises that their muscular unionism isn't achieving anything. I'm also pleased by the commitment in paragraph 16 of the agreement that when the Welsh Government intends to establish new arrangements to reach inter-governmental agreements, it will provide advance and adequate notice to the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee.

The additional commitment from the First Minister on notifying the Senedd when the Welsh Government will consent and when it has consented to the UK Government exercising a delegated power in a devolved area is so important, to be a real monitoring tool for the Senedd. We've just heard in the debate about the increase of LCMs for primary legislation. It's also important to monitor and scrutinise the extent to which consent is being given to subordinate legislation. This is a matter, of course, that the committee, under Huw Irranca-Davies's chairmanship—. And I'll echo what Peter Fox said about his chairmanship of the committee; we are very fortunate to have him as Chair. We will be taking the lead on it. But as I said in the LCM debate, I hope other Members will take an interest and will become familiar with what's happening, because it does affect our Welsh democracy and therefore impacts the people we serve.

Therefore, Dirprwy Lywydd, so endeth my second sermon—perhaps this time without the fire and brimstone—and I'd be very happy to welcome the Counsel General to my Welsh chapel at any convenient time, perhaps for the carol service this Sunday evening. Diolch yn fawr.

I call on the Trefnydd, Lesley Griffiths.

Diolch. The Welsh Government supports the motion. The Welsh Government is fully committed to the principles of openness and transparency upon which the new agreement is based, and supporting the Senedd's scrutiny role. We take our obligations in relation to fulfilling our responsibilities under the agreement very seriously. 

We continue to update and report to the Senedd on our relations, engagement and joint working with the other Governments within the United Kingdom, as well as with our British-Irish Council partners, just as we continued to uphold our obligations whilst joint work on a new agreement was ongoing. For example, earlier in the autumn term, the First Minister shared an annual IGR report for 2020-21 with Members of the Senedd. The report fulfilled one of our commitments in the agreement by the Welsh Government that was signed up to in the previous Senedd term. Other examples include a statement by the First Minister on an inter-governmental meeting with the Prime Minister of the UK and the First Ministers of the devolved nations, and a statement on the British-Irish Council summit recently hosted by the Welsh Government.

I also wish to put on record what was set out in correspondence with the LJC committee already, with the First Minister confirming that the Welsh Government will write to the LJC committee and other relevant committees to inform them of an intention to consent to the UK Government exercising a delegated legislative power in a devolved area in relation to Wales, explaining the rationale for the intention to consent. Where time allows, we will provide an opportunity for the Senedd to express a view before consent is formally given.

The Welsh Government will also issue a written statement in relation to every exercise of a delegated legislative power by a UK Minister in a devolved area to which the Welsh Ministers have given consent, explaining the rationale for that consent normally within three working days of the laying before, or notification to, the UK Parliament. The First Minister's statements and the annual IGR report are testimony to the importance of transparency, scrutiny and accountability. The First Minister will keep you appraised on the inter-governmental relations review in the spirit of the agreement that we are discussing and debating today.

As for relations with the UK Government, collaboration and joint work is still possible and engagement on the pandemic response and recovery and on operational aspects of EU exit clearly demonstrate this. However, this would be better with respectful, regular and reliable engagement through reformed and robust inter-governmental machinery. We remain hopeful that the joint review will improve the conduct of inter-governmental relations. Even though we face a deeply challenging relationship with the UK Government, the creation of more structured inter-governmental machinery with increased parity of esteem and participation can be important and positive steps. Since the election in May, we have been establishing and re-establishing ministerial relationships in the context of our programme for government, and recalibrating relations in light of political developments across the UK.

To conclude, Deputy Presiding Officer, the Welsh Government is committed to strengthening the transparency of inter-governmental relations and will continue to operate in line with the inter-institutional relations agreement. Diolch.

The Llywydd took the Chair.

I call on Huw Irranca-Davies to reply to the debate.

I thank all of those who've contributed to this important debate this afternoon. It's good to see that we have consensus on such an important matter as the inter-institutional relations agreement and inter-governmental working. It is vitally important that we have good scrutiny here in the Senedd of the transparency and accountability that has been mentioned as two of the three principles, but also that we do respect as well—that we give the scope for that confidentiality for discussions when needed between Governments as well.

I very much welcome the commitment of the Minister to not only the introduction of this agreement, but also to make this agreement work as well, and our committee will be keen to work with Government to see that happening on behalf of the Senedd. To all the contributors today and to my committee members, thank you very much. To the Government, we look forward to working with you on this and to see it bed in very firmly, because having the agreements in place is one thing, making them work is another. We are very aware, Llywydd, as well, that, behind the scenes, despite the earlier debate today, there is some really good work going on on an inter-governmental basis and this inter-institutional relations agreement allows the Senedd to have good sight of what's going on and to comment and to scrutinise that as well. So, diolch yn fawr iawn i bawb. Thank you very much for the opportunity to bring this to the Senedd's attention.

The proposal is to note the committee's report. Does any Member object? I don't see any objection. Therefore, the motion is agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Motion agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.