Item 14 is next, the legislative consent motion on the Elections Bill. I call on the Counsel General to move the motion. Mick Antoniw.

Motion NDM7968 Mick Antoniw

To propose that the Senedd, in accordance with Standing Order 29.6 agrees that provisions in the Elections Bill in so far as they fall within the legislative competence of the Senedd, should be considered by the UK Parliament.

Motion moved.

Thank you very much, Llywydd. I move the motion. I welcome this opportunity to explain why I am recommending that the Senedd consents to the provisions in the Elections Bill.

First of all, I would like to apologise for the delay before laying the supplementary memorandum caused by the complex and protracted discussions between the United Kingdom Government and the Welsh Government on a number of the provisions of the Bill. I regret the delay that affected the time that committees had to look at the most recent provisions.

I thank the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee and the Local Government and Housing Committee for the helpful points raised in their reports. They'll be pleased to hear of our constructive engagement with the UK Government and the significant progress that has been achieved.

Before I provide Members with further detail on what has been achieved, may I remind Members of the Welsh Government's approach to electoral reform, contained in the principles for electoral reform, published last July? They are principles that are founded in the values of social justice and democracy and the promotion of equality, accessibility and simplicity. We regret that the UK Government does not share our priorities.

We've made important progress towards delivering on these principles. Last year, we enfranchised 16 and 17-year-olds and also qualifying foreign citizens—those people who contribute so much to our communities and our nation and who deserve to have their voices heard in Wales, if not in England. We're also building on this by working with local authorities, education and third sector partners on a comprehensive engagement and awareness-raising campaign ahead of the May elections. Last week's voter registration day encouraged newly enfranchised young people to register to vote and to influence the things that matter to them. And Orders came into force last week to enable advanced voting pilots to take place in Blaenau Gwent, Bridgend, Caerphilly and Torfaen, giving people flexibility on when and where they can vote in the May elections. We are grateful to local government partners for helping elections in Wales to be as accessible as possible, reducing the democratic deficit.

Now, Members will know that in the original legislative consent memorandum laid on 9 September 2021, I could not recommend consent to the Bill. I had concerns that the Bill, as drafted, would adversely impact on devolved competence. Like many of us in this Siambr, I do not agree with the Bill, however, I am pleased to report that the Bill now better recognises devolved powers. With the exception of two areas relating to the offence of intimidation and digital imprints, Wales has effectively been carved out of the Bill in respect of devolved elections. I can therefore recommend consent, as set out in the supplementary memorandum, laid on 22 March.

As a consequence of our discussions, the UK Government has now recognised our key areas of concerns, set out in the original legislative consent memorandum—concerns also shared by the committees and noted in their reports. Voter ID proposals will not apply to the Senedd and council elections. Provisions enabling the Secretary of State to direct the Electoral Commission in the discharge of its Welsh functions have been removed by amendments that were tabled on 28 February and agreed at the House of Lords Committee Stage, as have proposals regarding undue influence, notional expenditure and other political finance. An outline of the relevant amendments can be found in paragraphs 17 to 29 of the supplementary memorandum.

There remains a difference of opinion between the Welsh Government and the UK Government on certain issues relating to digital imprints and the offence of intimidation. However, these relate to competence rather than the policy intent. The policy on digital imprints concerns electoral transparency. For devolved elections, this falls within devolved competence and requires Senedd consent. We agree that it's important to protect participants in the democratic process, and therefore we are not opposed in principle to the provisions on intimidation. However, I'm sure Members will agree that every legislature should be free to determine the disqualification regime for elections it is responsible for.

To repeat, I maintain my opposition to the Bill, which I believe is unnecessary and which is more about voter suppression and enabling foreign funding than enhancing electoral democracy and integrity. But I am satisfied that the changes we have secured for Wales, in accordance with the Sewel convention, with the exception of the two areas of disagreement on competence—. We are satisfied that the substantive elements of the Bill will not now impact on matters within the Senedd's competence. I remain firmly of the view that we are free to consider these issues further in consultation with stakeholders in Wales, and we plan to look at them again when we move forward with our own electoral reform legislation. I am now satisfied that the Senedd can give its consent to the Bill. Diolch yn fawr, Llywydd.

The Chair of the Local Government and Housing Committee now, John Griffiths.

Diolch, Llywydd. We laid our report on the legislative consent memorandum for the Elections Bill in December last year, and in that report we noted the Welsh Government's position that it would be inappropriate to grant consent to the UK Government to legislate on the devolved matters included in this Bill. Most of our committee agreed that consent should not be granted on the basis that any proposals to legislate on these devolved matters should be brought forward by the Welsh Government and subject to full scrutiny by the Senedd. Two Members, Joel James and Sam Rowlands, disagreed with that view and believed that consent should be granted.

Since then, the supplementary LCM in relation to this Bill was laid on 22 March, and we were invited by the Business Committee to consider and report on that supplementary LCM, No. 2, by today. We only had one meeting scheduled within that time frame on 23 March. We received an oral briefing from Legal Services at that meeting. However, due to the very limited time available, we have been unable to consider a legal advice note or to report on the SLCM.

The Counsel General will be aware that I wrote to him on Friday, expressing our frustration at being unable to undertake any detailed work on this supplementary LCM. The provisions within the supplementary LCM relate to amendments tabled to the Elections Bill on 11 January and 28 February. The delay in laying the SLCM then is therefore very disappointing. We are very concerned by the approach taken by the Welsh Government in not laying separate supplementary LCMs, following the tabling of each tranche of amendments. The delay has left no time for scrutiny of the supplementary LCM by our committee before it is debated today, and we are concerned that this debate is taking place without Members having the benefit of being able to consider a report by a relevant Senedd committee to inform their view. This situation highlights the importance of laying LCMs, or indeed supplementary LCMs, in a timely manner.

Given the previous debate, Llywydd, it's obviously a particular concern to the committee that I've had to reiterate this sort of message in relation to several supplementary LCMs brought forward by the Welsh Government with insufficient time for scrutiny. We've just discussed that building safety supplementary LCM today, and in December of last year, I expressed the committee's disappointment that the delay in laying supplementary memoranda in relation to the Leasehold Reform (Ground Rent) Bill also restricted our ability to scrutinise that legislation. So, I would repeat my ask, the committee's ask, to Welsh Government, Llywydd, to ensure that committees have the necessary time and information to be able to play a meaningful role, a proper role, in the legislative consent process. Diolch yn fawr.

Chair of the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee next. Huw Irranca-Davies.

Thank you, Llywydd. We issued a report on the legislative consent memorandum on the Elections Bill in December of last year. Although we considered the supplementary memorandum at our meeting yesterday, as it was only laid last Tuesday, we were unable to issue a report in the time allowed to us.

In our report on the memorandum, we expressed serious concern with provisions included within the Bill on its introduction that impacted on devolved areas and on the accountability arrangements for the Electoral Commission's activities in Wales as set out in the Senedd and Elections (Wales) Act 2020. We were equally concerned, at that time, at the apparent lack of engagement between the UK Government and the Welsh Government in such a significant area of public policy—as the Counsel General has set out, this really matters. It's one of fundamental importance to the rights of citizens and their engagement in the democratic process to decide who governs them. We therefore welcomed the fact that, as the Counsel General has laid out this afternoon, the UK Government did indeed table amendments that carved out devolved elections in Wales from the scope of the provisions that caused us great concern, and that is welcome.

I'll now turn to the four recommendations we made in our report, the first three of which were, indeed, accepted by the Counsel General, and the fourth was accepted in principle. Our first recommendation called on the Counsel General, following the completion of the Bill's passage through the UK Parliament, to issue a statement on the implications of the legislation for devolved elections in Wales. He's outlined some of this this afternoon, but he has accepted this recommendation. We welcome that, and we look forward to seeing the statement from you.

Our second recommendation related to the view expressed in the memorandum that the Welsh Government would prefer to consult stakeholders in Wales and to bring forward its own electoral legislation for scrutiny in the Senedd in due course. Counsel General, in your response to the committee, you also stated that the Welsh Government intends to bring forward this legislation in time for the next Senedd elections in 2026, subject to other demands. We welcome this intention—we support it. We see it as an opportunity to consolidate the law for devolved Welsh elections, which would help people's understanding of that law and, again, make it more accessible in both Welsh and English. So, we would welcome any further information about how those plans are progressing in response to this debate today.

Our third recommendation related to the original provisions that impacted upon devolved areas, which I previously mentioned, and asked when the Counsel General intended to bring forward a supplementary legislative consent memorandum relating to amendments tabled to the Bill. As the supplementary memorandum tabled last Tuesday confirms, amendments to the Bill were tabled on 11 January, 17 January and 28 February. I would simply, at this point, like to echo what the Chair of the Local Government and Housing Committee has said in saying that there is some disappointment at the delay in tabling the supplementary memorandum after these amendments were laid. I'd also echo what I said in the debate on the legislative consent motion for the leasehold reform Bill back in December. This delay in conveying crucial information to the Senedd until late in the consent process reduces greatly the amount of time that we have to effectively scrutinise the Welsh Government’s approach. Laying supplementary memoranda earlier, as a matter of really good practice, would have enabled us to consider the issues in more detail and report to the Senedd in time for today's debate. We therefore fully support what the Local Government and Housing Committee had told us in correspondence last week about the delay in tabling this particular supplementary memorandum when they said that whilst it does not breach Standing Orders, it certainly goes against the spirit of Standing Order 29.2.

The final recommendation in our report called on the Welsh Government to include a commentary on the extent of co-operation and engagement with the UK Government in all legislative consent memoranda. We made this recommendation as it was not clear to us how the position set out in this memorandum in relation to the most contentious provisions in the Bill had been arrived at, and when and to what extent the UK Government engaged with the Welsh Government. We really welcome the positive response to that recommendation, and in particular that future memoranda will inform Members of the extent of co-operation and engagement with the UK Government. We think this is critical for all the reasons we've laid out this afternoon.

Finally, we note and therefore welcome the references made in the supplementary consent memorandum to the constructive engagement that was subsequently had with the UK Government since the first memorandum was tabled and, of course, the Welsh Government's successful influence on the Bill in the areas in which the Welsh Government sought amendments. Diolch yn fawr iawn, Llywydd.

Cwnsler Cyffredinol, may I begin by congratulating you and the Welsh Government on the concessions you have achieved from the Westminster Government with regard to this Bill? It must be next to impossible to try and work with that Government—a Government that simply does not listen.

It's a Government that doesn't even listen to experts such as the Electoral Commission. But—and there is a 'but'—I'm very uncomfortable with the idea that we here in the Senedd are being asked to consent to such a Bill—a Bill that, through the expensive system of voter ID, will have the potential to exclude millions of the most disadvantaged people across the UK from casting their vote. I'm very uncomfortable that this Senedd, which has taken such pride in extending voting rights in Wales, is being asked to consent to a Bill that will undermine the independence of the Electoral Commission.

In recent years we've heard time and time again about Putin's interference within western democracies and western elections. Is now really the time to undermine the independent regulator of elections here in the United Kingdom? By now you've heard me on several occasions complaining not only about this Bill—.

Do you think, given the images we are seeing time and time again on the television, executed in the name of the President of Russia, Vladimir Putin, that it's beneath the Member to compare the actions of the UK Government to that dictator? I would ask you to consider those comments that you've just made. 

If you would have listened carefully to what I said, leader of the opposition, what I said was we've heard time and time again about Putin's interference in western democracies and in western elections. Having a strong, independent regulator for elections is crucial to stop that interference. I did not compare what Putin is doing with the Conservatives, so I'll ask you to take that back, the leader of the opposition.

Llywydd, you'll be pleased to know, and everyone else here will be pleased to know, especially those going to the football, that I'm not going to repeat my argument about LCMs or about this Bill.

I very much hope that we will see a Welsh elections Bill soon in the Senedd, which will show once again how Senedd Cymru, the Welsh Parliament, puts people, rights and justice at the heart of all of our actions. I remember Adam Price telling me one once that fair play and justice are part of our DNA as Welsh people. Well, there's no fair play in this Bill. Nor was there fair play in the nationality Bill—a Bill that punishes refugees, that punishes Gypsies, Roma and Travellers. This Senedd consented to a part of that Bill. Rather than consenting, I think we should have sent a clear message to Westminster that we want nothing to do with Bills that ride roughshod over people's rights. The argument that we are consenting only to those sections that are within our devolution settlement is, in my view, a weak one. The fact that there are good parts of the Bill doesn’t make it worth us here supporting it. We in this Senedd can't separate ourselves from that bigger picture. One of my heroes, the poet and communist Niclas y Glais, said this:

'The world is bigger than Wales / I know that now / But I give thanks that Wales, though small, / Is part of a world so big.'

Because we are part of something so much bigger than just the devolved settlement, so much bigger than us here in Wales, we can’t hide behind our devolution settlement and say, ‘Well, we agree with the parts that relate to devolution’. Because at its heart, as you've said, Counsel General, this is a poor Bill. We don't need this Bill. This Bill has been designed to undermine people’s rights, and as a result, we in Plaid Cymru—and I'm proud of saying this—cannot consent to such a Bill. Thank you very much.

Alun Davies. [Interruption.] No, no, no, no, no, no. 'Oh God', did you say? Who said that? Alun Davies.

It could have been my children, to be fair, Presiding Officer. [Laughter.] I speak in support of the Government and the proposition that's being made this afternoon. To start where Rhys ab Owen concluded, of course it is not in our gift to provide consent for the whole of this legislation. This is Westminster legislation designed mostly and generally for UK elections and English elections. It's not in our gift to stop the Bill going ahead, and I don't think we should pretend that it is. What I want to do this afternoon is to congratulate the Counsel General on how he has negotiated with the United Kingdom Government and ensured that we do have the carve-outs that are in place, and that we do have the opportunity to protect Welsh elections from this attack on the integrity of our democracy. I would very gently remind Rhys that, had Plaid Cymru voted for the 2017, I think, legislation, then they would have been able to vote for this as well, with the knowledge that they'd provided the opportunity for us to carve Wales out of this legislation.

The overall Bill that's being put through the Westminster Parliament is a bad Bill. It's a very bad Bill that does bad things. It seeks to undermine the integrity of our democracy by undermining the independence and powers of the regulator. At a time when we're all deeply concerned about the influence of dark money—I hesitate to say 'dirty money', but I suspect there's dirty money in British politics as well—we need to be strengthening independent regulation of our democracy, and we need to be strengthening the ability of the Electoral Commission to mount investigations into where money comes from, to follow the trail and to prosecute those people who are guilty of wrongdoing. I want to see a more powerful regulator protecting our democracy, not a less powerful regulator. It's essential that we do what we can in this place to root not just the processes of democracy, but also a culture of democracy, which we sometimes forget about.

In supporting the Government's approach on this legislation, I wonder if I could say two things to the Counsel General. I'd be grateful if he could respond in his summing up. First of all, do we have the opportunity over this Senedd in order to strengthen the Electoral Commission in Wales and to strengthen how it is able to regulate elections that take place in Wales—Senedd and local authority elections—to ensure that we are demonstrating that we want to see this integrity in the way that we ourselves are elected?

Secondly, Counsel General, we will be looking at Senedd reform over the term of this Parliament, and I hope that in doing so you'll be able to bring forward some legislation that consolidates existing legislation regulating how we run our elections, to ensure that we have a single Act that provides for all of the rules and regulations for elections in Wales, so that we improve not just the way we manage our democracy, but access to the understanding of what that democracy is as well. I think, whatever way in which the UK Government undermines the culture of democracy in the United Kingdom, in Wales what I hope we can do is to keep that light shining and to ensure that in Wales we demonstrate the integrity not just of a democratic Government but of a democracy and a parliamentary democracy where the integrity of that democracy is more important than trying to fix various parts of it. 

The Counsel General to reply to the debate. 

Can I thank all Members and Chairs of the committees for their comments, and can I just echo that I do not disagree with the concerns that have been raised in terms of the issue of scrutiny? I think it is one of the unfortunate parts of the way legislation has been coming from Westminster and the speed at which we have to deal with issues, amendments and changes, and to have to almost tortuously negotiate through Sewel to get to a final conclusion. You'll notice, on this legislation, effectively, were it not for two items there, there wouldn't be a need for a legislative consent motion at all on this. We brought the consent motion specifically to reiterate the competence issues that we have—not the disagreements on the policy aspect, but the fact that we believe there are competence matters, and we will incorporate those within future legislation. 

Can I also say that, of course, one of the problems, as you'll have noticed from the various dates that have been mentioned, is that the negotiations have been ongoing. The timescale was impacted by a reshuffle and then certain personal circumstances et cetera that delayed the inter-ministerial meetings. And, in fact, it went right up to the wire in terms of those last two items in terms of negotiations and changes. But I do recognise that, and there's a fundamental issue there that I think is more an inter-governmental one in terms of the proper legislative process that is there. 

In terms of the points that were made by Rhys, we're not consenting to the Bill. Our requirement under our Standing Orders is to deal with those points that relate to our devolved competence, and the only bits we are agreeing to are, in fact, those particular items that have been identified there. And as I've already said, the majority of the proposed Bill has been actually carved out—Wales has been carved out of that. Can I agree with his analysis on that? Can I also just confirm to Alun that, yes, we do need to—? By carving out the arrangements in respect of the Electoral Commission with regard to the Welsh aspect, I think that has been really significant. And it, of course, does concern me about what remains within the UK Bill, but that is not within our competence. And of course the issue of electoral reform is one that I've already commented on in my statement. 

And can I just reiterate the point that was particularly made by Alun—and it would be churlish of me, wouldn't it, to mention that, if you'd had your way on the 2017 Act, we would not now be in a position to actually have carved out this legislation because it would have applied automatically? And I think that there was prescience in the Government's position back at that time, that we recognised the importance of having that constitutional control over our electoral system. And I think some credit should be given to the Welsh Government for that particular decision at that particular time. Diolch, Llywydd. 

The proposal is to agree the motion. Does any Member object? [Interruption.] Was there an objection? [Objection.] Do shout if you are objecting so that I can hear you properly. So, the motion is not agreed, but I will defer voting until voting time, as there is an objection. 

Voting deferred until voting time.

That brings us to voting time, so we will take a short break. 

Plenary was suspended at 18:49.

The Senedd reconvened at 18:52, with the Llywydd in the Chair.