Item 5 today is a Member debate under Standing Order 11.21, the Holodomor. And I call on Alun Davies to move the motion.

Motion NDM7994 Alun Davies, Rhun ap Iorwerth, Samuel Kurtz, Jane Dodds

Supported by Janet Finch-Saunders, Jenny Rathbone, Mark Isherwood, Peter Fox, Vikki Howells

To propose that the Senedd:

1. Notes that this year is the 90th anniversary of the Holodomor: the famine which killed an estimated 4-6 million people in Ukraine over 1932/33.

2. Further notes that this famine was the consequence of the deliberate actions and policies of the Soviet Union.

3. Expresses its sympathy and extends its solidarity to the people of Ukraine on behalf of the people of Wales.

4. Calls on the Welsh Government to initiate a commemoration programme to remember the victims of the Holodomor and to raise awareness of the suffering of the people of Ukraine.

Motion moved.

I'm grateful to you, Deputy Presiding Officer. I'd like to start by saying how grateful I am to Jane Dodds and Sam Kurtz, who are co-submitting the motion today, and to Rhun ap Iorwerth, who will summate the debate we have this afternoon. I'm also grateful to Janet Finch-Saunders, to Jenny Rathbone, to Mark Isherwood, to Peter Fox and to Vikki Phillips—Vikki Howells—who also supported this motion.

It's important to discuss, and it's important to debate. It's important to remember, and it's important to educate and to learn. But it is also important not to repeat the mistakes of the past and to relive the horrors of the past. For many of us, and myself perhaps I'm speaking personally, being born 20 years after D-day, I grew up in the shadow of the second world war. I grew up in the shadow of listening to survivors speaking about the Holocaust. We learnt, at first-hand, what genocide means. I never thought that we would see genocide again, but we have. I bore witness to it in Rwanda and in the former Yugoslavia. We are seeing mass murder, industrial-scale murder, on our screens today, tonight, on a daily basis. It is not only unbelievable, but it is simply unacceptable that we continue to listen and to remember, but never to learn. What I hope we can do this afternoon is to learn about what happened in Ukraine 90 years ago, but also, in learning about what happened 90 years ago, the actions and consequences of what happened then echo down the years and resonate today. What happened 90 years ago is happening today.

At the end of this period, Stalin forced many Ukrainians, a million Ukrainian people, to leave their homes and their villages, and they were transported, forcibly removed, from Ukraine to Russia. That is happening today. It is happening again. And when we speak about genocide, and when we speak about human suffering, let us also remember that none of these things were an accident. They were the consequence of a deliberate choice. Stalin decided that he would commit genocide against the Ukrainian people. The harvest was good. There was no crisis in the harvest in those years, 90 years ago. There was no shortage of grain, shortage of seeds, shortage of supplies. They had enough food to feed themselves and to become known as the bread basket of Europe and of the world. The crisis happened and millions of people died because Stalin sought to eradicate the Ukrainian nation and the Ukrainian people, and we know that he was not alone in mass murder, because, several thousand kilometres away from where he was sitting, there was another dictator planning the same activity against Europeans, against the Jews of Europe. We have seen genocide in Europe, and we must learn, and not simply remember, and learn that it should never happen again.

When you look at the systematic way in which the Soviet Government worked to ensure that people starved—villages were blocked, villages were prevented, from accessing the food that was all around them. We saw that starvation was used as a deliberate act of a Government to terrorise a people, and then think about what is happening on the coast today, the southern coast of Ukraine today, where siege mentality and a siege is used against people today. Again, we hear the echoes down the years.

The goal was to crush the resistance of the Ukrainian people to both collectivisation, but also to total incorporation into the USSR—the extinction of the Ukrainian nation. And all those who opposed Stalin were liquidated, starved to death as a deliberate act of Government. And it is important that we bear witness to such genocide and to speak the truth about what happens. We remember that this week, here in our Parliament. The work of Gareth Jones in exposing what happened was central to teaching the world about what happened in those days, and I think we're all grateful to the national library and to Martin Shipton for writing and for ensuring that people hear the words of Gareth Jones again down the years. He saw at first-hand the famine. He saw people desperate with hunger, and he reported the full magnitude of human suffering.

'I walked along through villages and 12 collective farms. Everywhere was the cry, "There is no bread. We are dying"', and those words spread across the world, not only across Europe, but across to the United States as well, so people were to know about what happened. [Interruption.] I will take an intervention. 

I'm very sad to say that I knew very little about this terrible famine that was imposed and caused by the Soviet regime in Ukraine until fairly recently, when I took the opportunity to watch the film, Mr Jones, which very well depicted the terrible situation that people endured, the death, the misery, but also the heroic efforts of a Welshman, from Barry, using his journalism to make sure that the message got out. Do you agree with me that one thing that we do need to ensure here in Wales for all future generations is to promote the work of decent journalists like Gareth Jones and to make sure that our children, our future generations, don't have the opportunity to miss the importance of these sorts of events in our history that we must make sure that we learn from? Because I certainly knew nothing about it. I went through the Welsh education system and heard nothing. We must not let that happen again.

Can I say I absolutely agree with the point that Darren Millar is making? And of course it's no accident, because what Stalin did, having committed genocide, was to ban information and to conceal his actions in Ukraine. And the ban on information that was instigated by the Soviet Government in 1933, I think it was, was in place until 1987. And it is little wonder, when people seek to commit these acts of terror against a population, that they then seek to conceal their actions and conceal their part in those actions. We saw the same thing happen across occupied Europe in 1944 and 1945. And it was important—[Interruption.]

I'd just like to say that the role of journalists in uncovering these dreadful acts of genocide is absolutely crucial. And would you agree also that the death of Shireen Abu Akleh in Palestine, apparently by Israeli forces, is another example of how journalists risk their lives to report what is going on? And obviously that is an everyday occurrence amongst journalists from across the world in Ukraine.

The right that we have today to discuss in safety and freedom these matters is a right that we should never take for granted. Our ability to have this debate is rooted in our knowledge and our information, and one of the great terrors that I feel today is that, whereas we've always disagreed sometimes across the Chamber in different parties and places about our interpretation of history and our knowledge of history, we've always agreed on where history starts and what history is. What we see today is a perversion of history in all sorts of different ways, and I hope that there will continue in this Chamber at least to be an agreement on the facts and to interpret those facts potentially in different ways. But the role of journalism down the years has always been central to our understanding of history and our understanding of what happens. And that is especially true, of course, in those parts of the world where there are dictatorships and where there are attacks on the civilian population.

I'll seek to bring my remarks to a close, Deputy Presiding Officer. In 2006, the Ukrainian Parliament declared this to be a genocide. This was a deliberate attempt to destroy a country and a nation. The famine was followed by the deportations, which was an attempt, again, to destroy the Ukrainian people. What I hope we will be able to do today is to remember those actions, to remember this suffering, and I hope that in doing so we will again seek to renew our commitment to the people of Ukraine. The Counsel General has spoken passionately and movingly about his family and their experience over the past few months. I know that he will continue to tell his family and others in Ukraine of our support for their struggle today. And I hope that what may be born from our conversation this afternoon and from our experience at this time is a renewed link between our peoples, and a renewed commitment to remember, but not only to remember, but to learn. Thank you.

I'm grateful to the Member for Blaenau Gwent for tabling this timely and important debate, as it comes in a week when Russia has celebrated victory day on 9 May, the day that the united Union of Soviet Socialist Republics, or USSR, achieved victory over Nazi Germany and the end of the second world war with fellow allied countries. This display of military might through parades acts as a muscle flex towards the North Atlantic Treaty Organization, and as a chest-beating exercise to reassure its own citizens that mother Russia is still able to act unchecked.

In Soviet times, victory day was used to mark both the defeat of fascism and the perceived strength and virtues of communism. Thankfully, before the end of the twentieth century, communism was found out as the dangerous ideology that many now see it as, an ideology that left millions of Soviets living under draconian rules, with their liberty lost and millions more dead, having been sent to gulags. Some of us in this Chamber are young enough not to have lived through eastern and western blocs of Europe—indeed, I was born some 12 days before the dissolution of the Soviet Union—but when, in the words of Churchill, 

'From Stettin in the Baltic to Trieste in the Adriatic, an iron curtain has descended across the continent', we must remember this time.

However, the current events that are taking place in Ukraine, events that the west have long been warned about, are certainly making us realise the danger that a rogue state with an unpredictable leader pose to the peace that many of us have taken for granted for a generation, which the Member for Blaenau Gwent has referenced. Ninety years ago, the Holodomor showed the devastating impact that a power-hungry leader, desperate to cling on to power, can wield if his power goes unchecked. The Member for Blaenau Gwent has already spoken about the devastating impact that this famine had on the people living in Soviet Ukraine in the 1930s. 

If we fail to present a united front against Putin's current illegal war in the region, many in Ukraine and further afield will be at risk again. Of course, this Senedd has shown its clear commitment to stand with Ukraine. The UK Government has been one of the leading western nations in arming and supporting the Ukrainian military, and this Senedd rightly urged the UK Government to go further in supporting Ukrainian refugees. To see a British Prime Minister walk the streets of Kyiv alongside President Zelenskyy, and be the first western leader to address the Ukrainian Parliament, shows that the support our nation has provided Ukraine and its sovereign people has been gratefully received.

Like others in this Siambr and across Wales, I have relatives born outside of these islands, and I know from them first-hand the devastation that war can bring. This is why it is imperative that these same mistakes made during the first half of the twentieth century are not repeated less than 100 years on. And it is through the language we use that we can and must start to do better. Too often, the phrases 'far right' and 'far left' are used when referring to those with whom some may disagree. To use these descriptions in such a throwaway manner does a disservice to those who perished under the rule of real far right and far left authoritarian regimes and dictatorships. The far right is what we witnessed in Nazi Germany and Spain during the 1930s and 1940s. The far left is what we saw in the Soviet Union, where deliberate actions led to the horrific Holodomor or terror famine, leading to the death of some six million Ukrainian people. These regimes murdered many millions of their own people, people whose only crimes were not conforming to the warped ideologies of their leaders.

With the language used on social media still going unchecked and the spread of hatred and abuse becoming far too common, it is important that we as politicians step up and commit to becoming more aware of the language that we use. Some have taken to social media to question why the Senedd is debating this today. As a co-sponsor of this debate, I tell them here and now that it is incumbent on all of us to do better, to be better. By acknowledging the Holodomor and the appalling way the Soviet Union murdered their own people, we keep the crimes of yesteryear close to the forefront of our mind, as those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it. Diolch.

I call on the Minister for Social Justice, Jane Hutt.

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd, and I'd like to thank Alun Davies for bringing this important debate to Senedd Cymru and to thank all Members who have contributed. We are all acutely aware of the current tragedy that is unfolding in Ukraine, and we have discussed this many times in recent weeks. However, it is also important for us to reflect on times in the past when actions have been pursued that have undermined our common humanity. 

We regularly commemorate experiences of genocide and atrocities in this Siambr and across Wales, but we've not devoted significant time in recent years to talk about Holodomor. But my colleague the Counsel General, Mick Antoniw, has of course regularly drawn our attention to the suffering visited upon the Ukrainian people during the Holodomor, and I do welcome today the strong cross-party submission of this motion and engagement in the debate.

The ninetieth anniversary of these atrocities and the current focus on Ukraine provides an important stimulus for us to shine a light on the injustices of the past and to seek to avoid history repeating itself—as Alun Davies has said, not just to listen and remember, but to learn.

One of the few western journalists who reported on the famine in Ukraine and its causes was the Welshman, Gareth Jones. He was from Barry and he is buried in the Merthyr Dyfan cemetery. He was honoured locally, led by Barry Town Council, and a plaque will be placed over his grave or in the vicinity. He is still considered a hero in Ukraine and we must start to raise awareness of his warnings from today.

Gareth Jones was an eyewitness to the suffering in Ukraine, and told the truth about the horror he found. Initially, his stories were widely published, but by all accounts he was quickly ostracised and moved into the journalistic wilderness, and there is much we will learn about that and the reasons why, I'm sure, at the event that is taking place here at the Senedd tomorrow, commemorating Gareth Jones, sponsored by Mick Antoniw, and of course this all-important digitalisation of the archives by the National Library of Wales. I do hope that many Members will attend, to learn more about one of our often overlooked Welsh heroes.

The international media has changed dramatically since Gareth Jones was a journalist, and it's much easier for us to see with our own eyes the barbaric actions that Putin has taken in Ukraine. However, it is still crucial that we bear witness to the hardship of the Ukrainian people, and do whatever we can to ensure their rights are upheld. The UK Government has done much to hold out the hand of friendship to the Ukrainian Government, and we support them wholeheartedly in this endeavour. And the Welsh Government has contributed £4 million to the Disasters Emergency Committee Ukraine appeal, submitted medical aid amongst other efforts in Ukraine and the region, and we are supporting Ukrainians themselves to come to safety in our nation of sanctuary.

I'm not going to rehearse our work to support Ukrainian visa holders, because this is about commemorating the past, but I will just say that we are thinking very carefully about how we can support Ukrainians arriving here to record what they've experienced as part of the war crimes investigations. We will not turn away from those who have suffered, as happened during Holodomor.

It's clear that the deliberate actions of the Soviet Union, in forced collectivisation of land and seizure of resources, played a critical role in causing the famine. As Gareth Jones coined at the time, and I quote:

'I would look upon the children with their distorted limbs and feel the tragedy of that man-made famine which had the country in its grip.'

The Welsh connection to the Ukrainian people goes back a long way. Well before Holodomor, John Hughes travelled to Donetsk to establish an ironworks and collieries, as part of what was then called Hughesovka. We now see that city of over 1 million inhabitants under bombardment, and our heartfelt sympathies are with its residents. Gareth Jones's family history is relevant here. His mother, Annie Gwen Jones, was actually a governess to John Hughes's children in Donetsk, and it was her stories of Ukraine that inspired Gareth Jones, her son, to visit when he was old enough. She was a graduate of Aberystwyth University like her son, was a magistrate and secretary of Cardiff and District Women's Suffrage Society, and is really well honoured, as her son is, in the town of Barry. Even in the establishment of this Siambr, there are connections with Ukraine in the Heart of Wales, which sits in the floor at the centre of our Parliament. It was created by Alexander Beleschenko, a Swansea-based artist born to Ukrainian parents. 

We've all been awed by the bravery of the Ukrainian people during the current conflict. During the Holodomor, the suffering must have been immense, but Gareth Jones reported on the fortitude of the people, who asked not to be pitied because people in other parts had things even worse. Ukrainians have demonstrated again and again that they have the right to determine their own future, and they will find solidarity here in Wales. 

Before this conflict, Wales was home to around 500 Ukrainians, but we shortly expect to be home to more than 10 times that number. We will welcome them and learn from their experiences to strengthen our communities. Whilst it is clear to the Welsh public that Putin has attacked a sovereign nation, the deeper historic injustices caused by Stalin, such as the Holodomor, are not as well understood. I'm happy to commit the Welsh Government to raise awareness and commemorate the tragedy that occurred in Ukraine 90 years ago. We will remember the victims and encourage greater solidarity with the Ukrainians who are now finding sanctuary in Wales. 

I call on Rhun ap Iorwerth to reply to the debate. 

Thank you, Dirprwy Lywydd, and to everyone who has made such thoughtful comments today, and thank you for that commitment by the Minister. I'm pleased that we as a Senedd can express in such a unified way our sympathy and our solidarity with the people of Ukraine, as we note 90 years since the Holodomor, which is called the 'great famine' very often, but, of course, the use of that word 'famine' suggests something natural, when we know, of course, that it was the result of a particular policy, a policy of collectivisation and political decisions made with regard to the Ukraine. 

Stalin said that his policy towards Ukraine was due to the fact that Ukraine opposed his policies. There was famine in huge areas of the Soviet Union as well, but it is Ukraine that saw the greatest numbers of deaths, as the Soviet state took millions of tonnes of grain away from them. We do not know exactly many people died during the Holodomor. As Khrushchev admitted in his biography, nobody was counting. But the historian Robert Conquest uses data from the Soviet census that estimates that around 5 million of the people of Ukraine died as a result. It's impossible to comprehend it. Whole villages were eradicated, as we've heard, cities and roads were littered with the bodies of those who had left their villages to seek food but who died on their journey. The rural areas of Ukraine, the land of the black soil, that was considered to be one of the most fruitful lands in the world, was turned into a silent desert. 

Victor Kravchenko was a Soviet official who was told to take part in the process. He had to flee to the west as a result of what he saw in the Donbas region in the Ukraine of his birth. This is how he described what he saw in Petrovo: 

'What I saw that morning...was inexpressibly horrible. On a battlefield men die quickly, they fight back, they are sustained by fellowship and a sense of duty. Here I saw people dying in solitude by slow degrees, dying hideously, without the excuse of sacrifice for a cause. They had been trapped and left to starve, each in his home, by a political decision made in a far-off capital around conference and banquet tables.'

But, of course, this wasn't a story that could be told publicly. The Soviet press, as we've heard, denied that any famine had taken place at all. Unfortunately, there were plenty in the western press who were willing to believe that.

There was one man, of course—we’ve heard his name time and time again today—who tried to draw attention to the genuine situation, and that was Gareth Jones, the journalist from Barry. He had an interest in Russia, as we’ve heard from the Minister, since hearing the stories of his mother when she lived in Hughesovka, now Donetsk. He visited Ukraine for the first time in 1930 and he returned several times afterwards, and decided to wander on his own, rather than be guided, as a number of other journalists were, on Potemkin trips by officials of the Soviet Union to see what they wanted them to see. And by travelling under his own steam, he experienced directly the impact of this famine on those people living there. He used his voice as a journalist, and, as a journalist myself, I’m so pleased and proud of what this Welshman did for Ukraine and for journalism.

He reported back about what he saw, through newspaper articles in the UK, America and Germany. He explained that he had to leave because of the suffering and that food wasn’t available. 'So many Russians are too weak to work', he said. He said that he saw people fighting over a piece of orange peel on the floor of a train. 'I didn’t visit one village where a number hadn’t died', he said. But by trying to reveal to the world the atrocities Stalin wrought on his own people, he drew the attention of the secret police. He was forbidden from travelling to the country again, and, more than likely, because of his journalism, he lost his life, ultimately.

Even amongst his contemporaries in the west, he was accused of telling untruths. One journalist with The New York Times, Walter Duranty, said that, because the Kremlin, the headquarters of the Soviet Government, denied it, Gareth Jones’s story wasn’t true. In his response to him, Gareth Jones said:

'May I...congratulate the Soviet Foreign Office on its skill in concealing the true situation in the USSR? Moscow is not Russia, and the sight of well-fed people there tends to hide the real Russia.'

The Soviet Government denied the existence of this famine until the end of the 1980s, but it’s been seared on the minds of the people of Ukraine for 90 years. It’s important that we remember too.

To conclude, the sadness beyond words is that this isn't something that has been laid to rest forever in history. Here we are in 2022. Last week, an official of the United Nations said that the forces of Russia are stealing grain from Ukraine that could lead to a shortage of food there now. And of course, thousands upon thousands are dying to this day, and millions are suffering at the hands of an oppressor. People have to learn about what happened, and, in so doing, let us be unambiguous that we stand shoulder to shoulder with the people of Ukraine today as they remember this terrible chapter in their past, as they experience again the suffering of 90 years ago, whilst they battle for their future.

The question is that the motion be agreed. Does any Member object? No. The motion is therefore agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Motion agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.