6. What assessment has the Counsel General made of the impact that cutting the number of Welsh Members of the UK Parliament will have on the process of scrutinising legislation that relates to Wales? OQ58131

Thank you for the question. The composition of a legislature is a matter for that legislature to determine. Wales must be fully and fairly represented in the House of Commons to ensure that its interests in reserved—and, where appropriate, devolved—legislation are properly reflected.

Thank you for that response. I have a feeling that elements of this discussion will be aired again soon in this Chamber, but as we see a large decline in the number of our Members in Westminster, and hopefully more responsibilities coming over to this legislature, does the Minister agree with me that we need more elected Members here in order to scrutinise and to ensure that we get the best possible legislation to serve the people of Wales, and, in reality, that it's not a referendum on increasing the number of Members in this Parliament that we need, but rather, when the time comes, a referendum on independence for Wales?

Well, can I thank you for the supplementary question and the points you raise? Perhaps if I take the last point first, I mean, it's interesting, isn't it, that the line of criticism that's being pursued is one in terms of a referendum. I'm very clear in my own view, and I've checked there and the Welsh Labour manifesto 2021, the Welsh Liberal Democrat manifesto 2021, the Plaid Cymru manifesto 2021, and manifestos earlier to that, I think, give a very strong mandate in terms of reform. If there were to be a referendum on constitutional change, as such, and the number of Members, it's very interesting, isn't it, that there's been no referendum in the appointment of 84 new Lords by the current Prime Minister since he came to office not long ago. Changes to the voting system of mayors in England to make it easier for the Conservatives to win seats—there was no referendum on that. The introduction of voter ID and other restrictions to voting—there was no referendum on that. And, of course, there was no referendum on the reduction in the number of Welsh parliamentary seats—no referendum on that. At least we have a mandate and an entitlement to pursue those mandates on which we were elected.

But can I take on the important points in terms of scrutiny? The scrutiny role of a legislature is absolutely vital to a healthy democracy, so increasing the number of Members of the Senedd reflects, I think, the role and responsibilities of the Senedd, which have grown considerably since it first opened its doors in 1999. This institution now is a Parliament. Its responsibilities and its functions go way beyond those that existed when it was originally established. What I would say is that the value of democracy is something that we all have to take account of ourselves, and the importance of it. Unfortunately, with the Conservatives, they know the price of everything, as Aneurin Bevan said, but the value of nothing. And I value our democracy very strongly, but I'm sure that these points are all going to be made in the not-too-distant future.