The following amendment has been selected: amendment 1 in the name of Darren Millar.

The next item is the debate on broadcasting, and I call on the Deputy Minister for Arts and Sport to move the motion. Dawn Bowden.

Motion NDM8023 Lesley Griffiths, Siân Gwenllian

To propose that the Senedd:

1. Welcomes the formation of the expert panel which will explore the establishment of a shadow Broadcasting and Communications Authority for Wales.

2. Notes that the Co-operation Agreement between Plaid Cymru and the Welsh Government states their agreement that broadcasting and communications powers should be devolved to the Senedd.

Motion moved.

Diolch, Llywydd. I very much welcome the opportunity to talk today about the important work that we are taking forward, through our co-operation agreement with Plaid Cymru, to support a broadcasting and communications framework for Wales that is fit for purpose and delivers the media that Wales deserves.

Now, I shouldn't have to convince this Senedd that broadcasting is hugely important in Wales. It plays a crucial role informing, entertaining and educating. It's a vital contributor to the growth of our creative industries, to our economy, to our language, and to our democracy. And if its value was ever in doubt, the unprecedented period of the COVID-19 pandemic has surely only strengthened the case for its continuing relevance.

However, for broadcasting to meet the needs of Wales, its framework must be right. It must be fit for a devolved context and provide us with a strong and compelling voice in any debates on broadcasting issues, and that is not currently the case. Too many times, unilateral decisions taken by the UK Government have demonstrated a complete lack of understanding of devolution and an apparent disregard for the impact of those decisions in Wales, and indeed for public service broadcasting and its founding principles in general. We only have to look at the decisions on the freezing of the licence fee and the planned privatisation of Channel 4 as recent examples of how the UK Government's proposals are risking the invaluable contribution that public service broadcasters make to Wales. There are also numerous examples of misreporting of information and insufficient references to devolved circumstances in broadcast news that highlight the need to take action to address this information deficit in the media.

Now, our co-operation agreement with Plaid Cymru recognises the broad consensus in Wales that the current broadcasting and communications framework is inadequate. It recognises that it is not capable of delivering the media Wales needs and it outlines the desire to see powers in this space devolved. So, today I'm pleased to announce the establishment of an expert panel that marks the first step in taking forward action to address the flaws in the current system. We have appointed 12 expert members to the panel, and these individuals will come from a range of backgrounds, including independent production, broadcasting, journalism and academia, and together they bring a wealth of experience that will add value and weight to our discussions in this work.

Now, the panel's work will be guided by and build on the broadcasting and media commitments set out in the co-operation agreement. It will consider a range of issues, including work to explore the establishment of a shadow broadcasting and communications authority for Wales. The panel will also provide an important role as we explore the devolution of powers to Wales, and this is particularly important as we know that this is a challenging and ambitious goal.

A range of factors will need to be understood and considered, not least in terms of the scope of what we hope to achieve and the affordability of any recommended changes to the current regulatory framework. It will be the role of the expert panel to fully consider all the potential opportunities and impacts associated with our options. Their work will be guided by evidence and will require the panel to make informed judgments on factors such as the scope of any remit of any proposed broadcasting authority, on its potential structure, accountability and fit within the regulatory framework.

For any actions to be practical, achievable and achieve the buy-in of our stakeholders, we must develop the strongest business case possible and consider a range of factors, including financial implications and alignment with an increasingly global broadcasting landscape. We also know and understand that if broadcasting is to be devolved, it will require the agreement of the UK Government, so the strength of our case will need to stand up to scrutiny both here and at the UK level—

Will the Minister take an intervention?

Indeed.

I appreciate the points that you've been making in your opening contribution, but, of course, you say there is a coalition of support for these matters. The Labour Party isn't a part of that coalition. As far as I'm aware, the policy of Welsh Labour is not to devolve broadcasting.

The policy of Welsh Labour is yet to be developed in this area, but this is very much part of the co-operation agreement between Welsh Government and Plaid Cymru that was necessary for a range of issues that we needed to deliver the programme for government. So, that is something that we are still developing.

In terms of the scrutiny, as I said, it's got to stand up to scrutiny both here and at UK level, so it will be essential that we do continue to engage with that range of relevant stakeholders, experts and partners, alongside the work of the panel, to identify that robust and credible evidence base to take forward the actions. So, Llywydd, today I just thank you very much for the opportunity to take part in this debate, and I look forward to hearing the contribution of other Members and what they have to say this afternoon. Diolch yn fawr.

I have selected the amendment to the motion and I call on Tom Giffard to move that amendment, tabled in the name of Darren Millar. Tom Giffard.

Amendment 1—Darren Millar

Delete point 1.

Amendment 1 moved.

Diolch yn fawr, Llywydd, and I'd like to formally move the amendment in the name of my colleague and friend Darren Millar. [Interruption.] Any time.

What we're seeing here today, Llywydd, is yet another commission being set up by the Welsh Government to look at an issue that it's already made its mind up on. Last week it was more MSs, and this week it's another commission. The Cardiff Bay gravy train really does keep going for the friends of the Labour Party—[Interruption.] We've heard you already, Alun—[Interruption.] No, thank you, Alun. No, thank you, Alun. I've heard you once already.

Having looked this morning at the backgrounds and the social media feeds of the individuals that have been appointed to the committee, it seems a number of them have only one thing in common: an opposition to the UK Government. It isn't a balanced committee with a range of views, it's essentially a left-wing think tank that takes its ideas and its members firmly from within the Cardiff Bay bubble, and we should treat the inevitable findings with that in mind.

I noticed this morning Plaid Cymru tweeting, 'Breaking news: power over Welsh broadcasting a step closer', but it isn't closer at all. As we've just heard from Alun Davies and the Deputy Minister, we know that the Labour Party will not devolve that power—bad news for Plaid Cymru on that. Their general election manifesto—[Interruption.] We know that power currently resides with the UK Government. We know Labour's 2019 manifesto said, and I quote,

'A Labour government will ensure a healthy future for all our public service broadcasters, including BBC Alba and S4C.'

That doesn't sound to me like a Labour Government that would be particularly keen on devolving that power either. Maybe the Labour Party would be better advised to spend a bit of time agreeing a position within their own party than wasting taxpayers' money on this commission.

We know that the devolution of broadcasting is simply a bad idea. What is the purpose? What are we trying to fix? Those aren't my words, they're the words of the director of BBC Wales, Rhodri Talfan Davies, when discussing broadcasting in the previous Senedd's culture committee. Phil Henfrey, the head of news and programmes for ITV Wales, told the same committee that the debate about devolving powers over broadcasting risked overlooking the appeal of UK programming to Welsh audiences.

I heard earlier today the First Minister, in an answer to Adam Price, talking up the merits of listening to the experts. This isn't the Welsh Government listening to the experts on broadcasting, it's a Welsh Government that has a devolve now and worry about the details later approach. And it's true, because they have no plan about what they would actually do with the powers if they got devolved. It can't be clearer than in the statement that we just heard from the Deputy Minister, where she referred to the licence fee freeze and Channel 4 privatisation. But there's nothing today to suggest any of it would be different if it were devolved. Would the Welsh Government look to reverse the privatisation of Channel 4? Would it look to keep taxpayers paying licence fees when the rest of the UK wouldn't be? [Interruption.] It would? Well, it's good to know that Welsh citizens would be—. Well, it's an interesting update from the backbenches of the Labour Party to hear that if UK taxpayers were not paying licence fees, Welsh taxpayers would still continue to if that power were to be devolved. Or would none of it come to fruition and we'd just keep doing the same things because the Welsh Government loves nothing more than to hoard powers just to do nothing with them?

Broadcasting in Wales under the control of the UK Government has been a success story. Take S4C, for example, securing an extra £7.5 million from the UK Government to boost its digital output and supporting the channel to reach wider audiences, showcasing our Welsh language to even more people. The UK Government's White Paper on broadcasting reforms—

Will you take an intervention?

Of course.

Firstly, where's the equivalent support for radio in Wales, which is equally as important as television? Secondly, where is the support for English language programming for Wales? We used to have one. We used to have a channel called BBC Choice, BBC 2W, which I had the pleasure of contributing to at times. Where is the English language broadcasting platform that only a Welsh Parliament would deliver?

It's interesting you say that. I'm not sure that a Welsh Parliament would deliver that, and we've not seen any of that evidence today. I know you've got an extensive background in the BBC, but we've not seen that today. All we've seen today is the setting up of a commission that has already decided what it's going to report before it's started.

The UK Government's White Paper on broadcasting reforms, which includes the removal of certain restrictions, will mean that S4C will be able to reach people all across the UK. There's a big wide world out there, and even further afield, and its on-demand service will be even more accessible again. We need to look beyond our own borders. I know it's an alien concept to Plaid Cymru, but there is a world outside Wales, and this White Paper gives S4C, and more importantly the Welsh language, an opportunity to be heard and seen by a much wider audience.

And a final issue: it's estimated by the BBC that £184 million is raised in Wales out of a total UK figure of £3.7 billion. In 2018-19 S4C received £74.5 million of licence fee-generated funding. This puts the total licence fee-generated spend in Wales at £253.5 million—nearly £70 million more than the BBC estimated is raised in Wales. This demonstrates that Wales receives far more in funding from the licence fee, again to the tune of nearly £70 million extra, than it generates itself in Wales. The question that then follows is this: where does the difference in the money come from if this power were to be devolved? One suggestion—and I am wrapping up, Llywydd—from Glasgow Caledonian University's Professor David Hutchison, was that, and I quote,

'it would still be necessary to face the fact that, as there would have to be payment to the UK BBC for common services, then the licence fee in Wales—as in Scotland—might have to be significantly higher than it currently is.'

Would devolution change that situation? Surely, given that families are struggling with surging gas and electric prices, to burden them with significantly higher licence fees is another example of this Welsh Government chasing powers regardless of the cost.

I'm not sure where to start with that.

What are we trying to fix? A democratic deficit. I do not believe we should go cap in hand to the UK Government in terms of the future of broadcasting and the media here in Wales. We should not have to ask for permission to have content in our own official languages here in Wales. We have seen cut after cut to S4C, and yet we are supposed to be grateful because they have now pledged. We do not know what the impact of the future of the BBC and what's being considered by the UK Government will have on broadcasting here in Wales. I certainly do not trust a UK Tory Government to protect our broadcasting and media. 

For decades, Plaid Cymru has campaigned for the devolution of broadcasting and communications powers to Wales. Today's announcement is therefore an important and historic moment as we move a step closer to this following the formation of the expert panel. In fact, we can trace this struggle back to the 1970s, before some of us here today were born, with calls from Plaid Cymru and Cymdeithas yr Iaith for a Welsh-language television service, and then, of course, Gwynfor Evans's campaign for a Welsh-language television channel, where he threatened to go on hunger strike if the Government of Margaret Thatcher did not establish a channel.

After all, we have our own sports teams, our own national organisations, including our own Parliament, our own language, and it also makes sense for us to be responsible for broadcasting and communications. And I'm pleased to see the Government, as a result of the co-operation agreement, now supporting this, and I note the points made by Alun Davies that the Labour Party is not united on it, but I am pleased to see that we can co-operate and see value in this through the agreement.

Why is it important to devolve broadcasting? Well, media deficiencies are causing knowledge gaps in Wales, and devolving broadcasting and establishing this panel would help to close that gap. In 2016, only 37 per cent of people in Wales were watching BBC Wales Today and 17 per cent were watching ITV Wales at Six. With so many of our nation's people receiving British news rather than indigenous news, this creates a democratic deficit and a deficit of political awareness. Indeed, a study by Cardiff University and YouGov found that 40 per cent of people in Wales wrongly believed that Plaid Cymru was in Government between 2011 and 2016. Obviously, I wish that that had been the case, but isn't it really worrying that 40 per cent of the populace at the time didn't know which party was responsible for decisions that affected their day-to-day lives so much?

This deficit brings further consequences for the people of Wales. The 'Joint NGO Shadow Report on Racial Inequality in Wales' in 2021 said the following, and I quote:

'as Wales does not have a strong independent media identity, the English press agenda will often be echoed in Wales. The English media's coverage of migrants and refugees is of particular concern, with divisive and inflammatory language such as "swarming" and "invasion" used to refer to those seeking asylum in the UK. More recently, in 2020, BBC and Sky News received over 8,000 complaints after broadcasting migrants crossing the English Channel live. Labour MP Zarah Sultana responded: "we should ensure people don't drown crossing the Channel, not film them as if it were some grotesque reality TV show."

'Thus, we argue that the English media's coverage of migrants and refugees in recent years is not only concerning as it is divisive, inflammatory, and inhumane, but that it also contravenes W/Government's stance on migration as a "Nation of Sanctuary".'

This shows, therefore, how the fact that communications and broadcasting are not devolved undermines our ethos and our goals as a nation.

Of course, some things changed in the wake of COVID. In 2020, BBC Wales Today viewing figures increased to 46 per cent of the population, showing that people had realised, for the first time, perhaps, that important issues such as health and education were the responsibility of the Senedd rather than London. The pandemic therefore demonstrated the importance of providing an indigenous Welsh media to provide information to people living in Wales.

Therefore, I cannot overemphasize why today is indeed a very important day as we make further progress in this area, in order to bring all the potential benefits of devolving broadcasting and communications to Wales. If we want more people to take an interest in our democracy, to scrutinise our decisions, and to vote, then they must have the opportunity to be informed about what is happening here.

I do welcome the opportunity today to talk about this very timely debate. I think Welsh broadcasting, in all of its forms, at its best, should tell our national story, and it should reflect the interests and the passions of Wales. This isn't just about politics or news, whilst I do agree they form an important role, but our nation is passionate and proud about pêl-droed, about football, and it wants to engage with its national game. Llywydd, the Welsh women's and men's leagues are growing in popularity, but, if we are to truly build upon this, then the leagues must be broadcast live, free to view, free to listen.

I do want to pay tribute here to our national broadcaster, S4C, because S4C is a long-standing and consistent supporter of the game in Wales, and I think it can certainly be described as the home of Welsh football. The Minister will know I've tabled a number of written questions on this matter, and it is a great privilege to watch Sgorio, to watch the live coverage of the Cymru national team's progress in the World Cup qualifiers, and it is, too, important to note how great it is to watch BBC Wales's live coverage of every match as Cymru's women attempt to qualify for the 2023 World Cup competition, and of course we wish them every success in this Senedd Chamber.

Llywydd, just this past season, S4C has broadcast 47 live matches from the Cymru Premier League and the Welsh national cup competitions. But we should be aspiring to broadcast more each week, and significantly increase the coverage of the women's game. Members will know, and the Llywydd will know, that I will declare an interest here, as I am an unpaid, proud member and club ambassador of the mighty two-time Welsh Premier League champions, Connah's Quay Nomads.

Llywydd, I do support today the spirit of the motion in the establishment of an expert panel, and I do look forward to seeing the detail that will come out of the expert panel, and the proposals of what devolution of broadcasting will mean for our nation. But I do see it as an ideal opportunity to improve broadcasting for our national leagues and our international football. It's my ambition, Minister, to come out of this process and, when the expert panel does publish its detailed proposals, that Welsh league football, both the women's and men's leagues, will be broadcast live—more games, more frequently, free to view, free to listen, in both of our national languages. I'd be grateful if the Minister can update the Chamber on whether she agrees with my ambition, and whether she will commit, today, to putting that ambition to the expert panel and asking them to respond directly to it. Diolch yn fawr. 

I'd like to begin by saying how relevant today's motion is, and I thank the Government opposite for giving us the opportunity to debate such an important matter, because, regardless of which side of the debate you're on, I think we can all agree that the quality of Welsh broadcasting, both in English and Welsh, is second to none. Time and time again the BBC, ITV, S4C and production companies such as Tinopolis and Rondo have delivered world-class services and programmes enjoyed here and across the globe. At the very heart of Welsh output, on tv screens across the world, you can find Welsh stars in leading roles, Welsh locations and vistas the unsung heroes, and Welsh talent, from make-up artists to sound technicians and camera operators, part of the integrated fabric that makes Welsh productions of such a high standard. We in Wales can rightly boast of this success, all achieved without the invisible hand of the Welsh Government adjusting the camera lens or Quentin Taran-Drakeford sat in the director's chair. That's what Wales has to offer. And it's clear to me that the devolution of broadcasting serves no purpose to build upon an already thriving industry. 

Now, Members will claim that, without its devolution, broadcasting services will be left to suffer and squander, our culture dissipate and our language forgotten, but it couldn't be further from the truth, and the evidence shows that. In the last decade, we've seen both S4C and BBC Wales flourish in a way that has exported Wales, our language, identity and culture across the airwaves. Welsh broadcasting has had so many success stories we should all be proud of. Un Bore Mercher, latterly known as Keeping Faith, initially filmed in Welsh, translated over to English, the three-season thriller, is now filmed in both languages and received over 50 million views on BBC iPlayer; Doctor Who, a world-renowned tv series, filmed right here in Cardiff, bringing science fiction to every television screen, with the voices of Davros Dalek scaring every child of every generation; and Y Gwyll/Hinterland, a Welsh noir detective series later adopted by BBC Wales, the first BBC television drama to include dialogue in both English and Welsh. 

So, why is it that both Plaid Cymru and the Welsh Government want to stand in the way of such success? Now, of course, we all have a part to play in the future of public service broadcasting, but that part is not one of control, nor influence. We can continue to ensure that public service broadcasters thrive in the future given market changes, but that does not require the control of this Welsh Labour Government or Plaid Cymru. We've seen what happens when the Welsh Government involves itself in an industry it knows little about. Back in 2014, the Welsh Government spent £9.4 million acquiring a disused energy centre at Wentloog with aspirations to develop the site into a film and tv studio. Three years later, the studio was classified as unfit for higher budget film productions. The anticipated demand for the Welsh Government's state-owned film studio failed to materialise. The result: the entire venture was run at a loss, at the expense of the Welsh taxpayer. This is your track record when it comes to broadcasting, and it's certainly—[Interruption.]—it's certainly not an Oscar winner.

The devolution of broadcasting is an important debate to have, let's be sincere, but to reiterate comments made by Rhodri Davies, director of BBC Wales, it is completely unclear what the objective of devolving powers would be, its argument romantic and serving idyllic purposes, whereas Members opposite just seek control, with little regard for the consequences that would inevitably follow. The Government would be best left allowing a thriving industry to continue to flourish. Welsh broadcasting has so much to offer, none of us should be wanting to stand in its way. Diolch.

Could I declare an interest as a designated Member who has this as one of my responsibilities as part of the co-operation agreement?

I'm very delighted to be able to contribute to this debate today, a debate that's very important to our democracy as a nation and one that has the potential to be historic, as we prepare the ground for the devolution of broadcasting to Wales. And I don't use the word 'historic' lightly, as we discuss the issue of the devolution of broadcasting. As we've heard from Heledd Fychan, Cymdeithas yr Iaith and Plaid Cymru called for the establishment of an independent broadcasting authority over 50 years ago, and here we are, 50 years later, following decades of protesting and lobbying and campaigning, today, in our own Senedd, taking a step closer to realising the ambition that we set in the 1970s by exploring the possibility of creating a shadow broadcasting and communications authority for Wales, with the aim of creating a solid evidence base to support the case for the devolution of broadcasting powers to Wales in this particular area. And I'd like to thank everyone who has campaigned for this over past decades.

I want to pay tribute also to the Culture, Welsh Language and Communications Committee of the fifth Senedd, and the committee Chair, Bethan Sayed, particularly for the report published in 2021 on the devolution of broadcasting—a report that sets out the challenges but also the potential for strengthening our media in Wales. As Bethan Sayed said in her foreword to the report, 

'The supply of media content for Wales is inadequate. We don't have the provision of news and current affairs that Wales needs, hampering the political and civic life of our country.'

This means that

'we do not see ourselves reflected on our screens.'

And that's the point, perhaps, and it may be time for the party opposite to understand that we don't see enough of our own story as Welsh people on our screens at present. And even though there has been growth in global streaming giants such as Netflix and Amazon, which has been seen a lot more on our screens, that doesn't mean that more programmes portray the lives of the people of Wales, never mind the provision through the medium of Welsh. 

And as well as today's announcement, and the agreement between Plaid Cymru and the Welsh Government, which hopefully will prepare the way for the devolution of broadcasting, we've also lived through a very difficult period over recent years, a period that will write its own chapter in history books in the future. 

The pandemic has seen us change our daily habits, including our work, our family lives and our social lives, a period that saw households across Wales tune in to weekly Welsh Government press conferences, eager to know more about the pandemic in Wales and our response to it. The word 'our' is significant here. I believe that it is by no means an exaggeration to say that the COVID-19 pandemic has truly shown the value and vital importance of a strong, independent Welsh media.

We saw glimpses of Wales's potential to achieve this throughout the pandemic, but they were only glimpses. Our media and news outlets were continuously competing and often drowned out by UK-wide, England-focused outlets, pumping England-only information to the whole of the UK, either unaware of or indifferent towards the variations in restrictions and responses to the pandemic by the devolved administrations.

We only have to reference the trumped-up Freedom Day in July last year, with the usual Boris bluster and hyperbole. Despite being urged to make it clear that the lifting of restrictions only applied to England, he refused, meaning that millions of people in Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland were left totally confused. This Anglo-centric news and sharing of public information was not only irresponsible and reckless, but also dangerous, as it had a direct impact on people's health, and, possibly, lives.

So, to close, in the face of this lack of pluralism and fairness, let us take another step forward today to ensure a healthy and viable democracy in Wales by supporting this motion before us, so that our voice can be heard and our story as a people can be told on the whole range of possible media. Thank you.

Publicly-owned, independent media is critical to our democracy and to the accessibility of unbiased information. The broadcasting sector plays a crucial role informing, entertaining and creating a common cultural citizenship in Wales. Broadcasters are vital contributors to the growth of our economy, to devolution and to the delivery of our ambitions for sustaining and growing the Welsh language. When I see the UK Government creating a hostile environment, planning to sell off Channel 4 in haste, and calls to de-fund the BBC solely for political reasons, it strengthens the case for the devolution of broadcasting to protect its integrity.

The UK Government Minister, Nadine Dorries, appealed to populism regarding the tv licence, but the BBC has long suffered at the hands of the Tories, enduring cuts of 30 per cent since 2010. The decision to sell off Channel 4 for a quick buck goes entirely against what the public want. The consultation on a change of ownership received over 56,000 responses and 96 per cent of them oppose these changes. Their views have been blatantly ignored. Channel 4 plays a unique role in British broadcasting as a company owned by the British public, which costs the public nothing and ploughs its profits into commissioning new programming, creating jobs and discovering new talent across the country. The Tories' decision to privatise Channel 4 shows they are not serious about levelling up our country or supporting British-made programming and our own home-grown creative industries.

Will you take an intervention?

I will.

Do you think that there are potentially ulterior motives in the proposal to sell off Channel 4, and it has more to do with control?

I do indeed, I do indeed.

I know there is a consensus amongst broadcasters in Wales that a new public service media settlement is needed to maintain prominence and sustainability. Prominence is of course of huge importance, given the dominance of social media and smart tvs. Already, the most promoted sources of information online are from the Daily Mail and The Sun—highly biased publications. We need to bring the UK's broadcasting framework into the twenty-first century, ensuring its high-quality content is both easily visible and accessible. To achieve that, we need broadcasting to be overseen by a Government that understands its intrinsic worth.

I know that the Welsh Labour Government understand the value of our great British broadcasters, which provide so much more for our local communities than entertainment. They provide good jobs in communities around the countries and opportunities for the fast-growing creative industries, alongside protecting British culture, values and creative excellence overseas, helping our country to prosper. Diolch.

It's a pleasure to take part in this debate this afternoon. I've really enjoyed listening to the contributions, even though I don't agree with everything that's been said. I'm also a big tv and radio fan, so it's really good to take part in this this afternoon.

So, a free and open press in the news media is essential for democracy to thrive. One only has to look at what's happening in Russia to understand the risks of media being controlled by the state and the power that has over its citizens: a single voice controlled by the state, used to spread lies to the populace. At the other end of the extreme, we have this situation in the US, where the media landscape is a free-for-all: misinformation is openly broadcast by one or two large corporations that control all the media output across the USA. I think what we need to see is a happy medium, where we have plurality and independence, but regulated by a body independent from the state, much like the media landscape that we have currently in Wales. So, if it's not broke, then why are we trying to fix it? What is the purpose of devolving powers over broadcasting to Wales?

I've listened to the arguments put forward by Labour and Plaid politicians this afternoon, and it's clear as mud what they're trying to achieve. How will giving Welsh Ministers powers over broadcasting improve the Welsh media landscape? I believe it has a real prospect of making it worse. Wales is home to around 4.5 per cent the UK's total population, roughly about 1.3 million households. Even if every one of those households were to pay the licence fee, it still wouldn't be enough to pay for BBC Wales's output and the running of S4C. Because the licence fee is collected from across the UK, Wales can benefit from larger amounts of funding, so we punch well above our weight in that respect.

In the year prior to the pandemic, around a fifth of the UK's independent production budgets was spent in Wales. You only have to look here in Cardiff, and what Sam Kurtz mentioned about the creation of Doctor Who and Casualty, amongst others that are filmed here. And we get more than our fair share of funding in that sense. So, if Labour and Plaid get their way, they'll no doubt want more funding to follow the increase in powers. And how will the 82 per cent of UK households, i.e. the English licence fee payers, feel about their licence fee going up to fund Welsh broadcasting?

If broadcasting is devolved, what happens to S4C outside of Wales? According to broadcasters in the latest annual report, more than two thirds of the channel's viewership comes from outside our nation, and that's driven in part because of the relationship between S4C and the BBC, and with the use of modern technology such as BBC iPlayer, it's accessible in all parts of UK, as is BBC Alba in Scotland. What will happen to that relationship if broadcasting is devolved to one of the four UK nations? We won't be able to dictate to the other three.

There are also other concerns when it comes to funding. What happens when the Welsh Government decides it has other funding priorities? Say they need more money to fix the mess they have made of the NHS, when the penny finally drops, will S4C or the Welsh broadcasting co-operation even get a look in when it comes to their budgets? I seriously doubt it. There is no rational reason to devolve broadcasting other than to bolster the slow march towards independence. The Welsh public don't support the break-up of the UK, and I'm sure they don't support the break-up of the UK's media landscape. Broadcasting and media production across the UK are facing big enough challenges, and changes in demography and technology are ripping up the old ways of working, so we would be foolish to try going it alone in Wales. [Interruption.] Yes. Sure.

Do you not think that the biggest threat to media at present is the UK Government? If you look at what it's doing to the BBC, do you not admit that there is the risk to the future of S4C? Because of what you've outlined, the relationship between S4C and the BBC is crucial, and yet the UK Government is placing that at threat, which is why we need the devolution of broadcasting, so we can protect the future of media here in Wales.

No, absolutely not, and I think modern technology and the accessibility of S4C, not only in Wales and across the UK, is actually something to be proud of, and the fact that we can actually promote our Welsh language on a wider scale than what we would have been able to do 20, 30 years ago. So, I think you're wrong to say that, really. And I think we have to work together with other parts of the UK, not just work in silos, but work together, and not set nations against each other to compete against one another, which is what will happen if we pursue this ideology of devolution of broadcasting. Thank you.

Delyth Jewell as the committee Chair.

Thank you, Llywydd. Broadcasting is a subject that has been at the forefront of the agenda of the Culture, Communications, Welsh Language, Sport, and International Relations Committee. We as a committee have taken evidence from a host of stakeholders who strongly suggest that we need to strengthen the media landscape in Wales, although there is a great difference of opinion about how to do that, and I'll mention that in due course. But first, I'd first like to pay tribute to the important work undertaken in this area by the previous committee, the culture committee of the fifth Senedd, because the work that we are discussing today, certainly in terms of examining the case for establishing an expert panel to explore the creation of a shadow broadcasting and communications authority for Wales, the foundations of that work were laid by the previous committee.

This debate would not be happening today were it not for the work undertaken by that committee in the fifth Senedd. They gathered evidence on public service broadcasting and moved the debate forward, and prompted the Cardiff School of Journalism to commission research to fill the gaps where evidence did not exist. That research showed that there was a lack of coverage in the British press of devolved areas and, as a result, there was a democratic deficit. The people of Wales didn't always understand Welsh policies and this problem was highlighted by COVID. There were innumerable complications early in the pandemic caused by the stubbornness of some commentators, as they spoke about 'the Health Secretary', instead of acknowledging that there were different health Ministers for each nation. And this complexity led to problems that weren't just constitutional, as the previous committee had heard, but were public health issues. British commentators had to provide clarity then, for the first time ever, that health was a devolved area and that that needed to be acknowledged. Misinformation endangers more than democracy; it can also put people's lives at risk as well.

I will turn now to our committee, the Culture, Communications, Welsh Language, Sport, and International Relations Committee of the sixth Senedd. There was a difference of opinion in the committee, obviously. In November last year, after the publication of Ofcom's report on the future of public service broadcasting, we as a committee reported on how the recommendations would affect Wales. We endorsed Ofcom's recommendations on the need for legislation that would strengthen PSBs, which are facing increasing competition from global streaming services, such as Netflix. We recommended that Wales needs a stronger voice when making decisions. We argued that DCMS and the public service broadcasting advisory panel should include Welsh representatives in their discussions about the challenges facing PSBs in the digital age. We argued that there was a need to think specifically about protecting Welsh-language programming, and content that reflects Wales in both languages.

It's clear that we need a change of some kind in the way that broadcasting decisions are made. There will be a difference of opinion on that, but the broadcasting landscape in Wales is complex; there are specific challenges and opportunities for broadcasters, and the needs of audiences in Wales are unique. This is an area in which our committee will certainly take an interest over the coming months and years. I am very pleased that I have also been able to pay tribute to the work of the previous committee. There will be different views in the Chamber about the purpose of this debate, but without doubt, the influence of that committee deserves praise. It shows how important committee work is and how influential it can be for the future of Wales. Thank you.

I have to say that I was somewhat surprised to see this item on our order paper for this afternoon and the debate that's been taking place. I do agree with much of what the Minister said in opening the debate, but I always find debates on these matters somewhat unsatisfying and, ultimately, disappointing. Because what tends to happen—and we saw this from some of the Conservative speakers this afternoon—is people on both sides of the debate, either strongly in favour of devolution or strongly opposed to devolution, exhibiting the weak and feeble thinking that leads to unconvincing and inadequate policy. What we need to do is to understand what the problems are that we want to fix. There are serious issues here to be addressed, and I believe, Minister, that we should do so in the way that Welsh Labour tends to address these issues, which is to put the interests of the people of Wales first, second and third.

I agree very much with what the Minister said in her analysis of some of the issues facing us. The current systems we have of regulations and the structures and frameworks we have are simply not fit for purpose, and they're not delivering what we require as a nation. As somebody who was brought up in an English-speaking community, our culture, our national expression has no place in today's media landscape; it has no place at all. And for that reason, I believe that regulation has failed. The points that have been made by Members of Plaid Cymru in this debate are absolutely correct: there has been a failure to deliver accurate news on different broadcast outlets; there has been a failure to deliver the news about this place and about the governance of our country. That is a failure of regulation and it is a failure of Ofcom. Ofcom doesn't have the resources in Wales to deliver the sorts of regulation that we require, and simply to make excuses, as the Conservatives have done this afternoon, is to let down the people they seek to represent. It's simply not good enough to say that because we have some excellence in programme making, some excellence in production, some excellence in creative industries, therefore we need no further support at all, what we've got is enough and we should be pleased with it. That is not good enough. I want more for my country.

We do need accountability for some of these matters as well. I've disagreed, I'm afraid, as ever, with almost everybody in the Chamber on some of these issues. For me, I do not like Ministers making appointments. I remember a Conservative Minister being very, very clear when I was in Government that they wanted not the best person for the job—[Interruption.] You've only just come in, James, so keep your mouth shut. They didn't want the best person for the job; they wanted the Conservative appointee for the job, and that should not be happening in broadcasting. And for that reason, I believe that it is right and proper that broadcasting, as a subject, should be accountable to this Parliament and to other parliaments and not to Ministers and not to governments. It's too important to allow individual governments, whoever they may be, to take accountability for these matters. But we need to have far more accountability and far more action to address the disinformation and misinformation that exists today.

But we need to look to the future as well. My 11-year-old son doesn't watch the BBC, he doesn't watch S4C, he doesn't watch any of it; he watches YouTube, he watches Netflix. You tell me how an economic regulator in Wales is going to regulate Netflix. Let me tell you: it ain't going to happen. And if you do Wales down in that way, there'll be less regulation and not more regulation; there'll be less accountability and not more accountability. And let me say this, as well: Radio 2 will still be broadcasting if these matters are devolved. Boris Johnson, or somebody who will, no doubt, replace him in the next couple of months, will still be making inaccurate remarks about what happens where and who governs what part of policy. Yet there will be no form of regulation that will be able to tell that person, that office holder, that they need to be accountable for what they say. Because if we do not have a UK shared regulator that is able to do the work, we won't be able to say those things and we won't be able to have that level of regulation.

I'm glad the First Minister has joined us for this debate, because I think the real debate we need to have here isn't about whether or not we devolve broadcasting, but what is the purpose of the United Kingdom and what are the shared institutions and the shared values that we have to enable us all to see and feel a part of our national communities, wherever we happen to be in the United Kingdom. Surely, if the United Kingdom is to have a role in the future, it's to ensure that my 11-year-old can grow up seeing his English language identity safeguarded, portrayed on the screen, understood as part of our national community, and his Welsh language identity receiving exactly the same equality of esteem and place. If we're able to do that, the arguments that have dominated this debate for too long will simply fall away. We will have shared institutions with shared values and a shared vision of the future that we are all able, together, to deliver. Thank you.

Thank you for the opportunity to say a few words.

I was fortunate enough to work in the broadcasting industry for a couple of decades before coming here. I declare an interest as a member of the National Union of Journalists still. I used to be employed by the BBC in Wales and a number of independent broadcasting companies.

Communication and broadcasting is how we talk to each other, about each other, learn about our history, excite together about our future. But in order to facilitate and encourage this kind of Welsh-focused public service broadcasting, there is a clear role for governments and parliaments to provide those platforms—from a distance, absolutely—but to make sure that those platforms exist. The key question for me here is: who do we want to have ultimate control when it comes to the landscape of broadcasting in Wales? Do we want the UK Government—and I can see the direction of travel there—or do we want something that we can have control over as a joint venture for our nation? The devolving of broadcasting and communication is crucial for that.

The direction of travel under the Conservative Government in the UK currently is very, very clear. We cannot leave it to market forces alone. That is what the Conservatives are pursuing. I think the privatisation of Channel 4 now speaks volumes about their attitudes towards the media. The freedom that Channel 4 has had has enabled it to develop really innovative programming and independent news that is appreciated by so many people. I do not want to jeopardise the future that Welsh broadcasting could have by allowing us to go down the road set by the UK Government currently to a point of no return.

We have to distinguish here between the kind of Welsh broadcasting and communications that we want to discuss and what devolution of broadcasting is all about and the broadcasting, television and film industry that some Members on the Conservative benches have chosen to focus on. Yes, we have a brilliant media sector in Wales, producing films and television programmes that are enjoyed the world over. We have world-leading directors, actors and presenters. That is something that we can nurture for the future, and it is something that the Welsh economy can benefit from for many years to come. But that is not the same as securing the kind of broadcasting that allows us to develop our national conversation.

We talk about S4C often, and it's a headline that I'm pleased is there. I'm pleased that, after so many years of cuts, S4C has received an increase in its funding. But let's focus on radio. What will happen to Radio Cymru if the licence fee is lost and the BBC becomes a wholly commercial venture that has to pay for itself in every element of its work? Will Radio Cymru pay for itself in those market terms? Possibly, probably not. Radio Cymru, since the mid 1970s, has been a cornerstone of life through the Welsh language. Radio Cymru 2, even with a smaller audience, is just as important to the future of Welsh language broadcasting. And whilst I have been excited, as so many of you have, listening to Nic Parry and Malcolm Allen commentating on the football, Dylan Griffiths and Iwan Roberts do it for me in exactly the same way, and I've probably listened to them on radio more than I have watched football on television.

But it's not just Welsh language television and radio that we're talking about. There's niche programming in the English language that we need to make sure is there for years to come. I remember the fight for a 6 o'clock news hour for Wales, a fight that eventually we found we had no real influence over. We need that kind of control over English language programming in Wales so that we can speak to each other and talk about our futures in both our national languages. And when Wales is independent, I am quite sure that there will be all sorts of shared institutions, and why not share the kind of regulation we need across these islands in broadcasting too, but let's not deny this opportunity to put these difficult issues on the table so that we can discuss the best way forward to protect Welsh communication and broadcasting for the future.

The Deputy Minister to reply to the debate. Dawn Bowden.

Diolch, Llywydd. Can I thank all colleagues for their contributions this afternoon? I will try and respond to a number of the points made, but forgive me if I don't cover everything, because there were lots of very good points made, and people making the same points but in different ways.

Can I just start by thanking Tom Giffard for pointing out how the Labour Party is going to take things forward and telling me what the Labour Party's going to do and what it won't do? You seem to know more than I do, so you've got inside info on that, Tom. I don't know where that came from. But can I be absolutely clear? We have set up this expert panel not because we have already made our minds up; we have talked about the direction of travel, but we want this report from the expert panel to be evidence based, and there couldn't be anything clearer than that. In the terms of reference for the panel, we talk about the need for them to be transparent and accountable, for them to talk about the governance arrangements for broadcasting and media in Wales, to look at the funding implications and the ongoing sustainability. The finance and the ongoing sustainability was something that was mentioned by several Members, particularly on the Conservative benches. Gareth Davies mentioned it, as well as Samuel Kurtz.

Heledd Fychan talked about media deficiencies causing gaps in information. She's absolutely right, of course, that that is one of the key areas that we do need to address. Several Members did comment on how the COVID pandemic highlighted that information deficit that we saw, particularly in the delivery of news and public health information. Several Members made the point that that was not just information deficit, it was actually, potentially, very dangerous when we were having people being presented with information that was not relevant to the public health situation here in Wales. Cefin Campbell made a very similar point about that, again about the public health message being delivered.

Jack Sargeant was quite right when he talked about Wales as being a passionate and proud nation. He referenced pêl-droed—and who wouldn't be proud and passionate about football at this moment in time—building on the success of both the men's and women's teams at the moment, and S4C being central to that and us wanting to maintain that. We have a memorandum of understanding with S4C, which is building on the need for us to develop our portrayal of Welsh life, all the cultural aspects of our life and, of course, Welsh sport. And to take up your challenge particularly, Jack, in terms of football being free to view going forward, particularly the national team, I think that is something that you and I are on the same page on, and that is something very much that I think the expert panel will need to be looking at in terms of what regulation we would have in Wales that would allow such important sporting events to be free and available for anybody to watch.

Will you take an intervention?

Indeed.

Currently the Welsh football games are only available to Welsh language channels that are free to air, such as S4C, and in the English language it's on Sky Sports, which is obviously pay per view. So, do you know how much it would cost, then, to bring English language Welsh football into the public sector, the television sector?

No, I don't know how much that would cost, Gareth, but all of the financial implications for any of these proposals as we move forward would have to be looked at, and would be part of the case that we develop to either pursue the devolution of broadcasting or not. Because I think we need to be very clear about this—the expert panel is being put in place to deliver a case for the devolution of broadcasting if the evidence supports it. So, we need to be very clear about what we are seeking to do.

But Sam Kurtz was right to highlight—and I think Rhun ap Iorwerth did as well—the success of our screen and film industry. But I think it's important to remember as well that that has been heavily supported. You were talking, Sam, as though this was something that was just happening out there in the private sector, delivering all these fantastic productions, and, yes, of course that is what is happening, but let's not forget that major productions like The Pembrokeshire Murders and The Pact and lots of other productions on S4C—at least eight productions on S4C—were heavily supported by Creative Wales and Welsh Government. And that wouldn't stop in a new regulatory framework.

Carolyn Thomas talked about the concerns around selling off S4C and the threat that the BBC licence fee going would cause right the way across our public sector broadcasting. I think Rhun ap Iorwerth made a very similar point. So, I have written to Nadine Dorries, the Secretary of State for DCMS, on that point, but surprise, surprise, I've not actually had a reply from her at the moment.

Delyth Jewell referenced, as did Cefin Campbell, the work of the—[Interruption.]

Are you taking an intervention?

Sorry, I beg your pardon. Sorry, Tom. Yes.

Sorry, I just wanted to make clear, in my contribution Alun Davies seemed to suggest that the devolution of broadcasting would be a vehicle to reverse the privatisation of Channel 4 and keep Channel 4 in public ownership in Wales. I just wanted to clarify whether that was your position as well.

What I don't want to do, Tom—. That would be my aspiration, because I do not believe that the privatisation of Channel 4 or the abolition of the licence fee for the BBC is the right way for us to proceed. But let me be absolutely clear, I am not going to set out here and now what the findings of the expert panel will be because that would not be appropriate. That is what the expert panel are being put in place to do. Now, Alun Davies may well have his own views and his own opinions on that. He's perfectly entitled to have them. He's never been backward in coming forward. [Laughter.]

It was Carolyn Thomas and not Alun Davies.

But just to finally say, on those points, Delyth Jewell and Cefin Campbell also both referenced the work of the previous culture committees in this area, and I hope very much that the work of the previous culture committee will be work and evidence that the expert panel can reference and can use as part of their work in taking all of this forward, as well.

So, in wrapping up, Llywydd, what I would say is that I think, from what I've heard this afternoon and this evening, the Tories, to me, I'm sorry, colleagues, really don't seem to recognise or acknowledge that Wales is a nation in its own right, and that we have a unique culture and language, a bilingual ethos, a nature and a history that is distinct within the UK, and there are differences in the media landscape in Wales, and a reliance on broadcasting services such as news, and that makes it even more essential that our needs are understood so that our citizens can access accurate, impartial services and content relevant to Wales in the language of their choice.

The work of the panel comes at a critical time. Changing habits, content consumption, concerns with the supply and accuracy of media provision and funding cuts have only strengthened the need to consider the regulatory framework in an increasingly digital and global environment. And many of these changes have been accelerated by the global pandemic. So, I look forward to receiving the views of the panel to support our ongoing work to help strengthen broadcasting in Wales and the development of plans for an effective and fit-for-purpose regulatory framework for Wales. Diolch yn fawr.

The proposal is to agree amendment 1. Does any Member object? [Objection.] There is objection to that proposal to agree amendment 1. We will therefore defer voting until voting time. 

Voting deferred until voting time.

We'll now take a short break to make technical preparations for those votes. 

Plenary was suspended at 18:06.

The Senedd reconvened at 18:11, with the Llywydd in the Chair.