I call on the Minister for Climate Change to move the motion—Julie James.

Motion NDM8088 Lesley Griffiths

To propose that Senedd, in accordance with Standing Order 26.11:

Agrees to the general principles of The Environmental Protection (Single-use Plastic Products) (Wales) Bill.

Motion NDM8087 Lesley Griffiths

To propose that the Senedd:

For the purposes of any provisions resulting from The Environmental Protection (Single-use Plastic Products) (Wales) Bill, agrees to any increase in expenditure of a kind referred to in Standing Order 26.69, arising in consequence of the Bill.

Motions moved.

Diolch, Llywydd. I move the motion. I'm very pleased to be here today to open this debate on the general principles of the Environmental Protection (Single-use Plastic Products) (Wales) Bill and to move the motion and the financial resolution. This Bill is an important first, necessary step in our journey to supporting global action to tackle plastic pollution. From reviewing the recommendations from the committees, I note we are all aligned in our ambition to stop the devastating impact these plastics have on our environment, wildlife, health and our well-being.

I'd like to start, therefore, by thanking the finance; climate change, environment and infrastructure; and legislation, justice and constitutional committees for their scrutiny of this Bill. I very much appreciate all the hard work that has gone into delivering their comprehensive and helpful reports within a very tight timescale. I think it is also important to thank all the stakeholders, communities and young people who have contributed, supported and worked with us to develop the proposals for this vital legislation. I also welcome the additional oral and written evidence provided by organisations and individuals during the scrutiny stage. The combined expertise, challenge and perspective has been, and continues to be, invaluable to the development of this Bill.

I found the committee reports reassuring in that there is clearly a consensus that the Bill is a much-needed starting point and a necessary step in the right direction. Only together can we shift from a single-use culture towards developing more sustainable alternatives and greater reuse. Llywydd, given the number of and detailed nature of the recommendations, it will not be possible to respond to each and every one of them today. Therefore, I will write to the committee Chairs individually with my full response, following this debate. However, you will be pleased to hear that I will be accepting the majority of the recommendations.

Turning first to the Climate Change, Environment and Infrastructure Committee report, I note recommendation 1 from the committee to in due course publish a strategy for the reduction of plastic pollution in Wales. Our strategic direction for tackling plastics is already set out in our circular economy strategy, and our draft litter and fly-tipping prevention plan. A separate strategy is therefore not required. However, I accept that we need to make sure that everyone is clear on the detail of the Bill, the definitions of products and any related exemptions, and clear on work to take forward future bans. We will produce guidance to help producers, retailers and consumers understand the bans brought in by the Bill. We have also included a provision in the Bill to ensure we are transparent about any single-use plastic products we plan to add or remove in the future. This is being achieved under section 79(2) of the Government of Wales Act 2006, in which the Welsh Ministers will be required to report on the considerations as to whether they plan to add or remove a product, or to add or remove an exemption. Work to implement the Bill will be informed by expert advice and discussions with stakeholders.

I acknowledge the range of recommendations in the committees' reports calling for Welsh Government to ensure that interventions at a Wales level are clearly understood by those who will be affected. Recommendations 3, 4 and 5 deal with the need to raise awareness of the Bill's aims to educate people in the need to shift away from environmentally damaging single-use plastic. During the committee scrutiny sessions, I confirmed, subject to approval of the Bill by the Senedd, that we will be working with a range of groups and organisations to develop guidance and communication to support the Bill's implementation. This will include providing information to help clarify the products being banned and highlight what might be suitable alternatives. As part of our ongoing work, we will highlight any potential risks or unintended consequences of non-plastic alternatives. Our communications will also include wider messaging around litter prevention and encouraging people to either bin their waste or take it home with them if a bin is not available.

I can also confirm our guidance will address the concerns raised under recommendation 12 in relation to the provision of single-use plastic straws. I would like to reassure Members that throughout the Bill's development we have engaged proactively with protected characteristic groups, providing them opportunities to comment on our proposals as we progress this work. We have listened to the concerns they have raised and included exemptions accordingly. We have had very similar engagement with businesses. As well as providing clarity for individuals and businesses on the products to be banned and the actions they need to take to prepare for these bans, the guidance will set out information on how exempted products should remain available—so, how individuals who rely on single-use plastic straws to eat and drink safety and independently can still access them, and what businesses should do to ensure that those who need these products can still access them.

As noted during the committee stages, I will establish a robust and transparent process when considering the potential products to be included in the future. On this basis, I am happy to accept recommendation 13, and will table an amendment that will place a duty on the Welsh Ministers to consult on any proposed future regulations.

Recommendations 14, 15 and 16 seek further details on what support and engagement the Welsh Government will provide to local authorities to enforce the bans. I intend to write to the committee within the next 10 working days to outline our work in this area. However, I wish to give reassurance that we are working closely with the Welsh Local Government Association and local authorities individually on our guidance and awareness raising.

I have accepted the amendments proposed in recommendations 2, 5, 7 and 8 in principle. I will write to the committee Chair in due course on these matters to provide further clarification on a proposed way forward. For example, I've already committed the Welsh Government to undertake a post-implementation review of the Bill, as suggested in recommendation 8. However, this may require a slightly longer time frame to allow the legislation to bed in.

Turning to the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee and their recommendations, again I am happy to accept the majority of the recommendations put forward, and I intend to write to the committee with a comprehensive response. For the purposes of this debate, I wish to reiterate our position that the Bill is entirely within Senedd competence, is fully enforceable, and is not affected by the United Kingdom Internal Market Act 2020. As noted earlier, I am content to include a duty on Welsh Ministers to consult on any future changes to the existing products in the Bill, or on any proposed additions. However, further consideration will be needed in relation to the process involved in developing guidance, and I intend to outline our position on this in my written response to the committee.

With regard to the various recommendations around timescales, I will again address these in writing to provide a more detailed overview of the timelines involved. This would include, for example, how the six-month standstill period required for the World Trade Organization and products with a later commencement date will operate. 

Finally, turning to the Finance Committee recommendations, I'm pleased that the committee was broadly content with the financial implications of the Bill. I have accepted in principle recommendations 1, 2 and 3 from this committee, seeking further clarification on the costs and benefits of the Bill. We are working with our original contractors to update the costs, benefits and impact for businesses and manufacturers switching to alternative non-single-use plastics. We are also commissioning additional work to assess and identify whether benefits from manufacturing relate specifically to Wales as a result of the Bill. This combined work will take at least six months to complete and will inform future guidance relating to the Bill. We will share the outcomes of this work with all committees when published. 

We will continue to work with manufacturers and will build on relationships with impacted sectors, as suggested in recommendation 4. This will support us in developing our policy to tackle plastic pollution and associated guidance to support its implementation. I can confirm that subordinate legislation associated with the Bill will be made under the draft affirmative procedure. This requires a draft of the regulations to be laid before and approved by a resolution of the Senedd. This will be accompanied by an explanatory memorandum, which will include a full regulatory impact assessment and delivers recommendation 5. 

Diolch, Llywydd. I'll leave it there for now and then I'll respond to Members' remarks throughout the debate. 

I call first of all on the Chair of the Climate Change, Environment and Infrastructure Committee, Llyr Gruffydd. 

Thank you very much, Llywydd. I am very grateful for the opportunity to contribute to this debate on the general principles of the Bill and to be able to share the views of the climate change committee on the Bill with Members. Before I turn to the content of the Bill, I would like to speak briefly about how we've got to this point. Members will be aware, of course, that there was no Stage 1 committee scrutiny—by any committee—of the Bill before us today. The Bill was introduced in the Senedd only three weeks ago formally, the finalised Bill. During that period, the Climate Change, Environment and Infrastructure Committee, the Finance Committee and the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee have all conducted work on this Bill. It's not a situation that we're very content with, but under the circumstances, I think that we have done a respectable job between us of scrutinising this Bill. If we had not chosen to do this work, then there would have been no public consultation on the detailed provisions of the Bill and there would have been no opportunities for those affected by the proposals to have their say. We therefore believe that it was important for us to do the work that we did to avoid a total scrutiny deficit. But—and I say this in the strongest possible terms—our work and what I refer to in my contribution to the debate today should not be considered as an adequate replacement for Stage 1 committee scrutiny. It's important that we all understand that. 

Turning to the Bill itself, while there was widespread support amongst stakeholders for the Bill, it must be said that they were under no illusions about the potential impact of the Bill on the environment. Most people told us that the Bill alone will have but a limited effect on the plastic pollution and littering that we see all around us, but, of course, it is a starting point at least, and it is a good first step in the right direction.

There was some discussion in committee about the definitions used in the Bill. For example, some contributors questioned whether there were loopholes around the definition of 'single use' specifically and what that means. But the consensus was that there will always be a degree of ambiguity around the definitions. Stakeholders were less concerned with perfection than with the need for the alignment of the definitions with other legislation. We have therefore recommended that the Bill should be amended to include provision for guidance to be issued on the definitions.

We are, however, concerned about one omission. The Bill, of course, prevents the supply of banned items, but it doesn't prevent the manufacture of those items. In Scotland, of course, both manufacture and supply are prohibited. Under the Bill as drafted, although there might not be many of them, manufacturers based in Wales could be shipping single-use plastics to other parts of the globe. On the face of it, therefore, it is difficult to tally this with our ambitions to be a globally responsible country. Now, the Minister said in opening her contribution that we are starting on a global journey when it comes to tackling plastics. Well, I'd be grateful if the Minister, in responding to the debate, could give specific attention to that point; I'd be eager to hear that.

The central part of the Bill, of course, is the list of banned items as well as the element of those that are exempted. Now, generally speaking, the stakeholders were content with the items on the list, but the message we heard clearly was that this should be considered as a starting point. I know that the Minister has already said that she intends to pursue a ban on wet wipes that contain plastic as soon as she can do so, and the committee supports you, Minister, in that regard. Stakeholders told us that the exemptions, then, to the ban should be minimal, but Disability Wales gave us food for thought about the potential unintended consequences of the measures in the Bill. So, it's important to ensure that representative groups like Disability Wales and others have a prominent role in the development of any proposals to add to the list of banned items from the outset, and I'm pleased that the Minister has acknowledged the importance of that in her opening comments.

Now, there is an expectation that local authorities will play a significant role in implementing these proposals, and one of the biggest concerns raised with us was about the capacity of local authorities to do this work. The Minister has said that she expects local authorities to educate suppliers in advance of the ban coming into force, but I doubt whether this is realistic, based on what we heard. We were told—and we all know this, of course—that there have been cuts in terms of proactive advisory work. There were also doubts that local authorities have the capacity to enforce the ban effectively. It was suggested that some local authorities may choose not to take enforcement action at all, because of a lack of capacity. I'm therefore grateful that the Minister has confirmed that she is discussing this issue with local authorities, but we do expect the Welsh Government to provide the funding needed for local authorities to play their part in ensuring that the ban is a success, and I look forward to receiving that correspondence from the Minister when she does write to us on this issue.

And finally to conclude, the committee is pleased to see progress in this area, but it's clear that whilst stakeholders support the Bill, the Bill hasn't led to some great excitement. After all, the UK and Scottish Governments have already legislated to ban certain single-use plastics, so we are attempting to catch up with them here. Yes, that means that we can perhaps avoid the mistakes that others have made, but for how much longer can we continue to call ourselves leaders on environmental policy, when we are in fact, in this context, often the last to act?

Chair of the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee, Huw Irranca-Davies.

Diolch, Llywydd. Speaking in that capacity—although, can I just align myself with a lot of the comments made by the Chair of the other committee that I sit on? But also, Minister, I welcome the fact that you're bringing this forward. I think most people in this Chamber will say that this is making progress, and we've been waiting for this, and it's good to see it coming forward. But my remarks are going to be constrained to my role as Chair of the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee. It's good to have this debate in front of us. In the report that we laid this morning, we've drawn one conclusion and 17 recommendations, and I note that you're accepting, for all committees, the majority of recommendations, and you'll write to us with other more detailed comments, and we appreciate that.

Our single conclusion concerns this issue that was raised by Llyr there on the bypassing of the Senedd's Stage 1 scrutiny process for Welsh Government Bills. On our committee, we're not persuaded that it was appropriate to do so, or indeed wholly necessary for Welsh Government to seek to do so. It does highlight the risk that that sort of bypassing that bypasses and curtails scrutiny could lead to unintended consequences. None of us would want to see it, but at the worst, it may mean that a Bill of this type may not deliver the outcomes that it is intending to do. We hope that that isn't the case, but hence why we have an in-principle objection to the bypassing of the scrutiny process there.

We believe that the suggestion that the process of law making should be bypassed to potentially facilitate for, in this instance, the pursuit of a legal challenge by Welsh Government—and I say this whatever the merits or otherwise of that challenge—is not to be wholly welcome, because it risks undermining the functions of this legislature. So, we hope that such arguments are not routinely proposed by the Welsh Government in future. The question also arises as to whether the Welsh Government has acted as quickly as it could have done, which seems slightly perverse in what I've just said, but given that the intention to legislate was first stated in March 2020, we do think that opportunities did exist to bring forward either primary or secondary legislation much earlier. So, instead of seeking to expedite the Bill's progress through the Senedd and curtail scrutiny by dropping a Stage there, reducing the opportunities for valuable scrutiny, the Welsh Government could indeed have expedited the Bill's development ahead of its introduction and then done the whole Stages.

And then there's the question of whether this Bill was so urgent—although we all want to see it—at this stage, that it needed to be expedited through the Senedd, or would it have been better being considered by the whole Senedd through the Senedd's emergency Bill procedure rather than being left for the Business Committee to decide on an expedited process? In order to provide clarity on some of these issues, we therefore made six recommendations seeking further explanation from the Minister, and we look forward to hearing from the Minister, either today or in writing, in response to that.

The report that we've produced also highlights concerns that we have with the absence of any reference in the explanatory memorandum to the impact of UKIMA, the United Kingdom Internal Market Act 2020, on the Bill. Minister, once again, I state on the record: we accept that the 2020 Act cannot limit the Senedd's ability to legislate on matters that are within its devolved legislative competence, and you've restated today your clarity that this does not impact on it, as you said to our committee. However, our concern is whether, once law is made by the Senedd, the 2020 Act may impact on how effective the law is because of the market access principles it introduces right across the UK. So, we ask the Minister whether, in not acknowledging the potential impact—and we note that it's potential impact—of the 2020 Act on the practical effect and the enforcement of this Bill, there is any danger that people and businesses affected in Wales are not being provided with accurate information about the effect of this legislation, or whether, indeed, this could result in individuals or businesses being unaware of or misinformed about the full extent of the law as it applies in Wales, or, indeed, uncertainty for local authorities when enforcing some of the provisions in the Bill. So, we hope, Minister, that you can answer some of those today.

We made five recommendations in relation to these points, and they include asking the Minister to explain—we took the novel approach of putting a theoretical case study in our report—whether that's accurate regarding the application of the 2020 Act to oxo degradable plastic that is used as agricultural and horticultural mulch plastic. Not everybody will understand this, but it's a case study that we put to see if the Minister could tell us whether it's right or wrong. The key question is this: while the Bill may ban such plastic, because of the 2020 Act, will Welsh businesses still be able to buy mulch film from elsewhere in the UK, as suppliers in England, Scotland and Northern Ireland would be able to continue to supply to them? So that's what we're looking for an answer on. And Minister, you're shaking your head already, so I hope that you'll be standing up and telling us that that's not correct.

Finally, we made a further five recommendations relating to some of the provisions in the Bill and the rule of law. One of the underlying principles of the rule of law is certainty. We therefore do not share the Minister's view that she expressed to us in committee that legislation could be open to interpretation, or that it's a trade-off between ease of understanding and absolute certainty. The rule of law necessitates a distinction between non-statutory guidance and requirements imposed by law. The Minister made reference to that statutory guidance in her evidence, but the Bill does not currently reflect this position. So, although guidance may influence behaviour, ultimately, the interpretation of the Bill would be left to the courts. So, if we have overly flexible definitions in the Bill, this may result in ambiguity and challenge. We're concerned, therefore, for local authorities enforcing the provisions in the Bill, given that they should not apply or enforce guidance as if it were the law. So, we have recommended that there should be better, more precise definitions in the Bill, rather than seeking to provide clarity through guidance. We also recommend that there's a duty to provide guidance and that the duty includes consultation with stakeholders and should be subject to scrutiny by the Senedd. So, Minister, we look forward to your response. We know that you'll be writing to us in detail as well, but we welcome the generous way in which you opened your remarks to this Bill and we hope that you'll respond positively to those recommendations.

Chair of the Finance Committee, Peredur Owen Griffiths.

Thank you, Llywydd, and I'm pleased to contribute to this debate today as Chair of the Finance Committee. I’d like to thank the Minister for attending committee to discuss the financial implications of the Bill. We've made five recommendations, and I thank the Minister for the comments that the Minister's made on those, and I look forward to getting more detail from her in due time.

But before I go into detail on that, I'd like to start by supporting the comments made by the Chair of the Climate Change, Environment, and Infrastructure Committee, Llyr Gruffydd, and the comments we've just heard from Huw Irranca-Davies in relation to bypassing Stage 1 scrutiny. We support the view that bypassing Stage 1 denies stakeholders and the public the opportunity to be consulted on the detailed provision within the Bill. It also denies the Senedd the opportunity to undertake full and robust scrutiny of the policy and financial implications of the Bill.

Turning to the committee's views, we support the aims of the Bill to accelerate the shift from single-use plastics towards developing more sustainable alternatives, and we acknowledge the environmental benefits of reducing plastic pollution. We are also pleased to hear that the Minister continues to engage with stakeholders to ensure that the aims of this legislation are effectively communicated, and we hope this will help bring businesses into compliance and thus reduce the need for enforcement. However, we identified areas within the regulatory impact assessment accompanying the Bill as problematic.

We are particularly concerned that the cost estimated for businesses switching to alternative non-single-use plastics was based on relatively old research and data from 2019-20. Furthermore, the initial cost modelling was based on nine products, rather than 11, as included in the Bill. The Minister told us that she expected that the costs of the nine products may have decreased due to the shift already taking place to alternative products and the effect elsewhere in the UK and globally from countries banning single-use plastics. Whilst this is good to hear, as this may have a positive effect on the costs, we still expect this information to be reflected in the RIA and we recommend that this is included in an updated RIA following Stage 2 proceedings.

Llywydd, it will come as no surprise to Members that the committee is concerned with the impact of current inflationary pressures on the financial impact of legislation. The HM Treasury Green Book says that the effects of general price inflation should be removed from estimates relating to Bills. However, the Minister told us that the costs of both continuing with single-use plastics and moving to non-single-use plastics would be subject to inflation. She also made the point that it may be of benefit for businesses to swap to alternative products away from oil-based plastics, given the rising costs of oil, to mitigate the cost impact of these measures. Whilst we appreciate these suggestions on how costs could be kept low, we are still concerned with the impact this could have on businesses, given the significant rate of inflation. We also believe that it poses an affordability risk for the Welsh Government. This is a concern for this Bill and for future Bills and, as a result, we're asking Welsh Government to give consideration to inflationary pressures when calculating cost impacts of legislation.

Turning to other issues, we heard from the Minister that it was difficult to estimate costs relating to manufacturers and other businesses switching production away from plastic items due to the lack of available data and the lack of engagement with businesses. We are disappointed that this was the case and recommend that further work is undertaken to assess these costs and disbenefits. The RIAs should include the Welsh Government's best estimated cost on introduction to allow us to effectively scrutinise the overall financial implications and benefits of a Bill.

Our third recommendation seeks clarification on whether the £8.6 million identified as benefits from manufacturing is on a UK or Welsh basis. If it accounts for UK manufacturing as a whole, as the RIA suggests, this should not be included as a benefit for Wales and the Welsh Government should revise its figures to calculate the specific benefit to Wales.

As Members will know, this Bill contains regulatory powers to ban further products in time. However, the committee was concerned by the lack of engagement between the Welsh Government and businesses, which meant that data to assess the costs of any future bans was not being collected. We therefore recommend that the Welsh Government improves its engagement with manufacturers and businesses in Wales to ensure that any plans to ban further products are costed accurately. The committee also felt that compliance within the sector, rather than rely on the Bill's enforcement powers—.

Our final recommendation also relates to the regulatory powers in the Bill. We ask the Welsh Government to commit to providing a full and robust RIA to accompany any relevant subordinate legislation made under this Bill that bans further single-use plastic products not already covered within the scope of the legislation as drafted. 

Llywydd, we are grateful to the Minister and her officials for giving evidence to the committee on this significant piece of legislation. Our recommendations point to areas that need to be improved in order to ensure that this Bill is a success, and we look forward to hearing the Minister’s response. Thank you.

I would just like to thank the Minister and your officials and my committee colleagues for the work that has gone into this so far, and it’s not before time that we need to stand here, really, to welcome this Bill. I appreciate everything that the Chairs of the other committees have said, and I just hope that this is one Bill that we can all, cross-party, get behind. But it needs to be a Bill—. Now that we've got this opportunity, it needs to be a Bill that actually delivers, because it is a year after the Labour Government said that you would legislate, it's two years after the UK Government imposed its own ban, and it’s three years after the Welsh Government declared a climate emergency. On 5 July, the First Minister himself announced that this Bill would be used to support the Welsh Government’s ongoing legal challenge against the United Kingdom Internal Market Act 2020. Anyway, that aside, I and my group welcome the Bill, and we do agree with the general principles. I mean, really, who wouldn’t? The production of single-use plastic is continuing to encompass the global carbon budget. Around 98 per cent of single-use plastic products are produced from virgin feedstock or fossil fuels. By 2040, it is predicted that the production, use and disposal of fossil fuel-based plastics will reach 19 per cent of the global carbon budget. And it is estimated that there are 400 million tonnes of plastic waste each year.

The consequences are devastating, Llywydd. There will be more plastic than fish in the sea by 2050. Ninety per cent of sea birds have plastic in their stomachs. Microplastic pollution has resulted in a decline in fauna, including larvae and mites, and around 100,000 pieces or 250g of plastic are consumed by us as individuals annually. Now, bearing in mind that context, I do want our Welsh Parliament to go as far as it possibly can with this new Bill.

Welsh Water and Wales Environment Link have expressed disappointment that wet wipes containing plastics are not included. But, when you came to the committee meeting last week, Minister, you were actually more forceful on that, and you are certainly going to be looking at it. Because, let’s be honest, wet wipes, particularly with plastic, are the principal cause and contributor to the formation of blockages in our sewers, and also pollute the environment with microplastics. Even the British Plastics Federation has explained that alternatives to wet wipes containing plastics do exist. I understand, according to my colleague Llyr Gruffydd, that we have a company already looking to produce—. Yes, in Wrexham?

No, Flint.

Flint. I beg your pardon. So, focusing for a bit longer on the plastic products we would like to prohibit, research has found now that around 39 per cent of smokers throw cigarette butts—or cigarette tips, as I always used to say; yes, cigarette tips—containing plastic down the drain. The vast majority are single-use plastic, and they contain hundreds of toxic chemicals, once smoked. What we are left with is a plague of plastic cigarette ends on beaches. Quite often, for those of us who take part in beach cleans—. Oh, lordy, thousands of them are collected when there are a few of us out there.

Balloon sticks are rightly included. 'What about the actual balloons?', I have been asked. Someone has written to me, knowing that this is coming forward, so it’s good that the public are becoming aware. What about the actual balloons? The RSPCA has warned that ingesting balloons can cause death by blocking the digestive and respiratory tracts. And in 2013, DEFRA produced 'Sky lanterns and helium balloons: an assessment of impacts on livestock and the environment', in which they identified the choking of livestock due to swallowing balloon fragments.

There’s also a need to consider coffee pods. Hamburg banned coffee pods from state-run buildings as part of an environmental drive to reduce waste. Menstrual products—they generate 200,000 tonnes of waste per year. Nappies—now, this one's a tricky one for me, because, for anyone who's been a mother, going back to the old terry towelling nappies, for me, is not the way forward. However, whether manufacturers could look at maybe producing nappies with less plastic in them—because, again, they're just a blight in our communities when discarded irresponsibly. Single-use toothbrushes—256 million of these are discarded. Single-use razors—2 billion end up in the landfill every year. And more recently, COVID testing kits that are—. Well, they are plastic at the moment. Whether those companies, Minister, could actually look at—. As a result of your Bill coming forward, maybe it will make manufacturers more responsible when they are putting things together. 

We do need a serious discussion about enforcement, but I agree with everything that's been said here. This is going to pass costs over to our businesses, and I do believe that, if we bring people with us, people will soon realise that we need to work together on that. So, we need to support it doing more on using the carrot, not the stick. 

I am concerned in terms of the financial implications for our local authorities. The WLGA, Chartered Institute of Wastes Management, Newport City Council, Flintshire County Council and Caerphilly County Borough Council have all expressed concerns about resources and lack of capacity—and that's now, before they look at this.

We will be voting in favour today, Llywydd, but I think the Minister knows, as far as we're concerned, we want this to be an all-singing and all-dancing Act when it comes through, and hopefully we can work together, Minister, on any amendments that—. We can perhaps work together so that this Bill does exactly what we all want it to do. Diolch. 

Thank you, Minister. Plaid Cymru has campaigned for years to ban single-use plastics. I first called for a ban in 2019. This is an important step forward, and something that is very much to be welcomed. Because plastics have become an intrinsic part of our lives—from food packaging, our clothes, the way that people clean, the things that we eat, plastic is everywhere. I read this week that microplastics have been detected in breast milk for the first time. And although we are all aware of plastic pollution, COVID-19 has accelerated microplastics’ harmful impact on our environment and biodiversity. I'm sure that we all remember the distressing images of birds and other animals entangled in single-use face masks, and their stomachs full of plastic. Some will remember that plastics have been found in the depths of the sea, on top of Everest, on beaches in Indonesia and on riverbanks worldwide. These are the earth’s wonders, and this the mark that we leave as humanity—or could we leave another mark via this kind of legislation?

We see the impact of plastics on our own nation’s beautiful coastline. Microplastics are to be found in many of our indigenous aquatic species. The data demonstrate that, despite the campaigns against single-use plastics, the percentage of the plastic and polystyrene covered by the Bill continues to be high on our beaches and in our seas.

Almost everyone agrees that action is needed. But almost nobody wants their lifestyles to change at all, and that's the challenge, of course. We have a duty to safeguard people worldwide from the dangers of plastic waste, and it is clear that, although this Bill is an important step forward, and I do want to repeat that—it is an important step forward—it still isn’t sufficiently robust in terms of banning the manufacture of single-use plastics, as the Chair of the climate change committee has set out.

I am concerned that, in contrast to legislation recently passed in Scotland, Wales is banning only the supply rather than the manufacture of the listed items. We should be preventing the exportation of known pollutants to other countries too. The current definition of 'single use' could allow the supply of multipack or family-size products that include a number of individually packaged items as part of the product. It is particularly important to ensure that this definition is clear, without loopholes. Therefore, I’d like to hear at the end of the debate whether the Minister agrees that the definition of a single-use item should be amended to include the wording ‘conceived as single use’ to reflect the EU’s definition of single-use plastic products.

The committee has discussed in detail—again, this has already been described in the debate—the fact that wet wipes—I think that Llyr calls them 'wipes gwlyb'—are missing from the Bill. In its response to the previous committee’s inquiry into microplastics, Dŵr Cymru Welsh Water noted the scale of the problems caused by wet wipes in our sewers. If they're not banned, what more can the Government do and what more can society do to inform people of the damage that wet wipes cause?

Wales Environment Link, as we've heard, argues that citizen education should be of assistance, but, ultimately, regulatory intervention is needed in this field, because as we've heard so many times in the Siambr and in committee, behaviour change is such a difficult thing to bring about. At present, there is nothing to stop companies from labelling as 'flushable' those wipes that cause significant damage to our water systems, and without a standard definition of what is biodegradable, this is a cause of public confusion.

To conclude, Llywydd, this Bill needs to drive change. All of our behaviours must change, and we need to ensure that this is true not just of our day-to-day lives in Wales, but also in terms of the impact that we have on the rest of the world. And that’s the challenge for the Government, of course: ensuring that people’s habits really do change, that they feel that they are part of this, that it's not something that happens to them, but that they want to solve the problem themselves, and that we don’t kick the can down the road for future generations. The work that has gone into this Bill is to be praised to the hilt, and I hope that a number of these concerns can be allayed as the legislation progresses. Thank you.

As Delyth Jewell has already said, we now know that there are plastics in breast milk in about 70 per cent of the cases. So, this is obviously just the latest iteration of the problems we've created for ourselves, because it will also be in powdered milk, it'll be in cow's milk, it'll be in our bread because of the grain that's grown on land that has got plastic on it, and it will be in our meat and fish, for sure. So, we certainly need to act now to stop killing ourselves in this way. 

I appreciate the soft approach that has been taken by the Government on plastic straws, because we took some interesting evidence from somebody representing the disabled community, who said that plastic straws were the most suitable way of drinking for certain people with certain disabilities. There's clearly not a problem of people in hospitals being offered plastic straws because, obviously, incinerated waste all goes in one way. There's obviously a much more complex problem, therefore, in the community when somebody goes into a cafe and says, 'My children want plastic straws.' We're going to need some pretty clear regulation around ensuring that the cafe owner or the waiter will be able to be clear as to when it's appropriate to have plastic straws, because obviously there are paper straws, there are reusable metal and wood straws. So, there are plenty of alternatives for most people, but I recognise that this is a softly, softly approach to engage with people to develop the alternatives, without disadvantaging disabled people.

One of the areas where we need some clarity is on oxo-degradables, because they are, as the explanatory memorandum makes really clear, just as big a menace as anything else. But, there is no actual definition of oxo-biodegradables, so this really is something that needs some collaboration between the Welsh Government, Westminster and the other devolved administrations, because it makes sense to have really clear labelling on this. At the moment, lots of people are green-washing their product by saying, 'This is biodegradable.' Yes, it might be in 200 years' time, but that's not really what we're talking about, is it?

So, obviously, I too would like to see rapid action on plastic in wet wipes and on sanitary products, because I'm afraid to say that people continue to, and will continue to, put wet wipes and sanitary products down the toilet because of their confused relationship with their bodies and not wanting to dispose of them elsewhere. There's a lot of evidence on that. So, we really do need to work on that, because absolutely, as has been said by Janet Finch-Saunders, they do block the sewers and create the fatbergs, so it costs us a hell of a lot of money to tidy it up.

Keep Wales Tidy highlighted that there were two plastics that were on the rise. One was these vaping canisters; we need to take action against that. And, secondly, fast food litter, which they said was as a result of the cost-of-living crisis. So, there really is a sobering relationship between what people think is the most economical way of feeding themselves or their family rather than actually just cooking a basic meal. But, that's not for this legislation, but something for dealing with elsewhere. Nevertheless, I think that there's a really important way in which we're going to need to deal with fast food outlets, and see what we can do to get them to incentivise people to bring in their own containers when they come to pick up a curry, rather than using other types of products. That obviously links this legislation in with the extended producer responsibilities, and our overarching commitment, which has to be to reduce, reuse and recycle.

So, a good work in progress. We need to get on with it now, and we need to quite quickly change the culture around just chucking things away and thinking that that's the end of it, it's gone—it hasn't.

Good afternoon, Minister. I welcome this Bill; it is a landmark Bill. It is always tempting, isn't it, when we do something well—and I think that that's definitely happened—to say, 'Well done, but what about—?', and I just have one of those, if I may. But, I do want to say thank you very much for the work that's been done, and thank you for the reports from the other committees as well. We know that this is an issue that you have worked on and that you're very, very committed to, as is your colleague.

I wanted, really, just to say two things. One is to highlight some of those fantastic community campaigns that have been happening. Surfers Against Sewage have been running a towns accreditation scheme, plastic-free towns, whereby, as we know, communities take steps to work with local businesses, community groups, schools, et cetera, to reduce their use of plastics and to recycle them in productive ways. Twenty-eight towns in Wales have been accredited or are working towards that accreditation, and I think it's really important that we recognise and give thanks for the work that has been done at that community level because it really is important that we raise that awareness and try to change that culture. Just three towns in our region that have done this: Lampeter, Llanidloes and Aberystwyth. Thank you to all of those towns and the people within them for the work that they've done.

So, the 'but', for me, if I may, Minister, is I wonder if I could put pressure on you to go further on the deposit-return scheme, commonly referred to as a bottle-return scheme. As we know, in Norway, the bottle-return scheme has led to 95 per cent of bottles being recycled, but the UK Government continues to drag their feet despite committing to a roll-out of the scheme. It's my view that, once again, perhaps, we in Wales should lead the way on this, and should plan and implement our own scheme in order that we can push further, faster and forward in terms of our commitment, rather than waiting for Westminster to take this further.

So, I do welcome the Bill and thank you for the work that's been done, and I look forward to working with the Welsh Government, and perhaps to continuing the discussion to see how we can go further and faster. Thank you. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

The Minister for Climate Change now to reply to the debate. Julie James. 

Diolch, Llywydd. I very much welcome all of the comments that have been made by Members today, and the spirit in which they've been made. Given time restraints, unfortunately I just do not have time to go through all of them. As I said in my opening remarks, I don't have time to go through every recommendation, but we will write back to the committees and I will make sure that a comprehensive response on each of the recommendations and the issues raised by various Members today pertaining to the committees will come back to you for perusal.

I just wanted to, very specifically, cover off the point from the Chair of the legislation and justice committee on the case study that they included, however. Very respectfully, Huw, I'm very sorry to say that we just don't agree that the legislation and justice committee's case study is an accurate representation of the position. Our position is very much that the provisions of the Bill are within competence, are fully effective and enforceable. So, that includes the provisions that make it an offence to supply a prohibited single-use, oxo-biodegradable plastic product to a consumer in Wales, and it includes the supply of those items from outside Wales, including from other UK nations. So, the Counsel General, sitting beside me today, has repeatedly set out that our position is that UKIMA, as we call it, cannot and does not operate to reserved matters that are clearly within the Senedd's competence. The Bill makes provision in relation to non-reserved matters and in relation to Wales. Both the Counsel General and the Llywydd have said that its provisions are within competence, and so we consider they are fully effective and enforceable, and the market access principles in UKIMA simply do not apply to them. So, I just wanted to make that really plain today.

I will just make a couple of other points. I very much welcome all of the Members' contributions about going further and faster on various products. As I said in the committee, we had 60-odd suggestions in our response. That is a published response; you can look it up on the website. You can see the number of items that people suggested. Everybody has mentioned them again here today. There are others. For example, I've been discussing with the health Minister a number of products in the health service that we definitely need to look at in more detail.

And just on the wet wipes issue, we have, of course, worked with the manufacturer in Flint and elsewhere—three plants in Wales, actually—but as I said in the committee, and I just remind Janet, one of the big issues for us is that you don't currently have to label the product to say that it has plastic in it. So, obviously, it's much more difficult to enforce if you aren't able to say, accurately, what's in it. So, I'm very much hoping that the UK will change the labelling regime, so that if you have a product that looks like it should be compostable or biodegradable, but in fact has plastic in it, that that should be very clearly stated on the label. We have an issue with wet wipes, for sure, but we also have an issue with some tea bags having plastic in them, and so on. So, products that contain a plastic, which makes them no longer biodegradable or no longer compostable, need to be clearly labelled, because otherwise what are we to do with them? I can’t emphasise that enough, and I’ll bring that up in every inter-ministerial group I'm in, and I hope, Janet, you'll be able to do that with the Government there in Westminster. I'm sure the committees will do it as well.

But, in the meantime, we will work with our manufacturers here in Wales very carefully to make sure that they themselves remove the plastic from their products. Even if we don't ban them, we want them removed from the products. So, I just wanted to make that position very plain. I would very much have liked to have included wet wipes, but it's turned out to be impossible at the point of enforcement to do that. The Bill though, I'm very pleased to say, of course, does allow us to add in products as we do the research and as we work with our businesses. So, I'm very much looking forward to being able to do that. It deliberately puts a duty on Ministers, assuming that the Senedd eventually passes it in this form, so that we have to report back to the Senedd whether we are or are not including extra products. So, I think that extra holding of the feet to the fire—‘Why aren’t you going further?'—is something that the Senedd really should, I hope, endorse, as we take the Bill through its various stages.

The Bill fits into our comprehensive, wider strategies aimed at protecting and enhancing our environment. So, just in answer to Jane and I think a few of the others, obviously, this is part of a suite of measures, so we are taking forward the introduction of a deposit-return scheme, as it happens. There's also a new, extended producer responsibility scheme coming. So, we'll pick up the manufacturing point in the wider suite of measures. So, just because it's not in this Bill doesn't mean we’re not doing it, and the Senedd will have a chance to have a look at that, so I very much take the point. We are very clear on our global responsibilities, so I think it's very important that we do those things. So, just to remind Members that, just because it's not in here, it doesn't mean it's not coming or it's not included in the suite of measures.

It contributes to our programme for government, of course, on tackling the climate emergency. I'm very pleased, and I'll reiterate from the beginning, that I'm able to accept nearly all of the recommendations from the committees, and I'm very grateful for the amount of work you've done in very short order. In particular, as I said in my opening remarks, we will bring amendments forward to put the guidance as a duty, so we'll be able to address that, and we certainly will be addressing the Finance Committee's recommendations, which we're accepting all of—not a single one of those has been rejected.

But, Llywydd, in the end, I really do think that we are doing something pretty unique here. We are behind the other UK nations, but this goes further. Sometimes you can leapfrog, and I hope that the Senedd will take the opportunity to leapfrog today. This is something that we seem to have a collective will to do. It's something I think we must deliver. We have to take action to protect our current and future generations from the impact of this plastic. I very much hope that Members will approve both motions today. I look forward to further debate during Stage 2 scrutiny, and ask that Members today approve the motion and agree the general principles and financial resolution of the Environmental Protection (Single-use Plastic Products) (Wales) Bill. Diolch. 

The proposal is to agree the motion under item 7. Does any Member object? There are no objections. Therefore, the motion is agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36. 

Motion agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

The proposal is to agree the motion under item 8, which is the financial resolution in relation to the Bill. Does any Member object the motion under item 8? No. That motion is also agreed.

Motion agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

That brings our business to a close. There will be no voting time. 

Excellent timing, just before the kick-off of the football at 6 o'clock. Nothing left to do other than to say, 'Pob lwc Cymru'.

The meeting ended at 17:46.