The next item is a motion under Standing Order 26.91 seeking the Senedd's agreement to introduce a Member Bill, the outdoor education (Wales) Bill. I call on Sam Rowlands to move the motion. Sam Rowlands. 

Motion NDM8069 Sam Rowlands

To propose that the Senedd, in accordance with Standing Order 26.91:

Agrees that Sam Rowlands MS may introduce a Bill to give effect to the information included in the Explanatory Memorandum published on 17 August 2022 under Standing Order 26.91A.

Motion moved.

Diolch Llywydd, and can I first say what an absolute pleasure it is today to seek the Senedd's agreement for me to introduce my Member Bill, the outdoor education (Wales) Bill? As Members will be aware, back in July I was selected from a Members ballot to bring forward a Bill. Clearly, since July not a huge amount has happened in politics in the UK, but I've certainly been very busy, working with representatives of the outdoor education and activity sector, universities, councils, Members of the Senedd, schools and pupils in bringing forward what I think is not only an extremely exciting Bill, but also one that will deliver a range of long-lasting benefits. 

Back in July I had the pleasure of publishing a 16-page explanatory memorandum, which looked into the policy objectives of this Bill and the support received for the Bill, along with the financial factors to consider. I'm sure all Members already know this, as I'm sure we've all it read it from back to front; nevertheless Members will be happy to note that I'll discuss the points from the explanatory memorandum through my contribution today, in which I will firstly outline what the Bill is, secondly, I'll outline why outdoor education is so important, I'll explain why this Bill is needed, I'll explain the financial aspects of the Bill as well, and, finally, I'll outline what I believe are the next steps in taking this proposal forward.

So, in short, the Bill will establish a statutory duty on local authorities to ensure that Wales's young people have the opportunity to participate in a week-long, four-nights residential outdoor education visit at some point during their school career. This will be put into practice by ensuring funding is put in place to enable local authorities and schools to deliver these experiences for all our youngsters, which would be, as I say, for at least one week—four nights—at some stage during their school years. 

Of course, I'm sure many Members will be thinking: out of all the policy proposals that I could have sought to introduce, why did I choose outdoor education? The main reason behind this is my basic conviction of how important outdoor education is to a child's education and overall development. It's my aspiration, and, I believe, that of many Members of the Senedd, that, regardless of a child's socioeconomic background, additional learning needs, cultural background or geographical location, they should get to enjoy the fantastic and long-lasting benefits that come from outdoor education. In addition to this, I and Members from across the Chamber have worked with the outdoor activity sector through Huw Irranca-Davies's excellent chairmanship of the outdoor activity cross-party group, which helped myself and members of the cross-party group truly understand the benefits of outdoor education. I'm sure many Members of the Senedd will remember outdoor education residential visits that they went on, creating memories, building confidence and preparing ourselves for decades to come. Sadly, I'm also sure that there are Members here who will not have had the chance to have this incredible experience themselves.

The Deputy Presiding Officer (David Rees) took the Chair.

Indeed, recent Welsh Government-commissioned research, published via Hwb, has outlined that outdoor education has well-established benefits for children and young people in both their physical health and well-being, but also their mental health and well-being. In addition to this, Welsh Government-commissioned research found that outdoor education has exceptional benefits for personal and social learning, cognitive development and appreciation of our environment, and with our climate crisis, this is more important now than ever before.

Along with this, research from across the world has further outlined that if a child experiences these benefits at a young age, they will carry it through for the rest of their life, making a lasting difference. Furthermore, the Curriculum for Wales's health and well-being area of learning and experience contains statements of 'what matters', which place importance on responding to experiences, decision making and social influences. These are all fundamental within outdoor education, as fully realised through an outdoor education residential experience. 

I'd now like to move on to why the Bill is needed here in Wales, and what the published research and statistics are telling us. I'd firstly like to put on record my thanks to those schools and organisations through which we currently see outdoor education taking place, with fantastic work being carried out to enable this to happen. The main rationale behind my Bill is that all this good work that schools and organisations are currently doing simply doesn't go far enough, because it's seen as enrichment rather than an essential part of education, with many parts of our communities missing out due to financial constraints, where they live or their family background, and I'll go into that a little bit more shortly.

As Members will be aware, last week, with the help of the outdoor education sector and the Senedd's research team, I produced a statistical paper that briefly outlines what we currently see with those who participate in outdoor education, as, regretfully, there were no official statistics about the number of outdoor education residential visits or how many of our children and young people in Wales are gaining the clear range of benefits that they provide. This statistical paper has surveyed 350 schools across 18 of Wales's local authorities, and working with the Outdoor Education Advisers Panel Cymru, I collected data that shows four key findings. 

Firstly, in over a third of Welsh schools, of those children offered the opportunity to participate in outdoor education residential visits, fewer than 75 per cent of children take part. Secondly, 60 per cent of schools surveyed cited financial reasons as the main barrier to participation in outdoor education residential visits. Thirdly, over one in five Welsh schools do not offer a subsidy to those families who are financially constrained. And fourthly, initial research has also suggested that more affluent areas will see more children participate in outdoor education visits, while those in less affluent areas participate less.

Indeed, those survey results found that in Blaenau Gwent, 65 per cent of schools indicated financial constraints as an issue; in Caerphilly, 70 per cent of schools indicated financial constraints as an issue; and in Rhondda Cynon Taf, 75 per cent of schools showed that financial constraints are an issue, whilst in Monmouthshire, it was 45 per cent outlining this as an issue. In addition, during this process, a key thing that struck me is the fact that, regretfully, an outdoor education visit may, in fact, be the only time that some of your youngsters actually have the opportunity to see beyond the communities that they live in, and experience something new. 

So, along with my statistical paper, I'm sure avid followers of my Twitter and Facebook pages saw two key articles that I shared this summer in relation to outdoor education. Firstly, new research from Swansea University, published via BBC Wales, found that children in Wales were among the world's least fit, with researchers giving Wales's youngsters an F for fitness. A second BBC article, featuring research from Sport Wales, found that children are doing less sport than they were four years ago, with 36 per cent of children not doing any activities outside of their school physical education lessons, compared with 28 per cent just four years ago. I'm sure all Members from across the Chamber can agree that it's simply not right that a significant proportion of our young people across Wales don't have the chance to participate in something so beneficial, due to either where they're from or their family's financial situation. I believe that we cannot stand back and look at our children becoming unhealthier and our young people not engaging in outdoor activities, and for us to sit here and not to do anything about it is simply not acceptable.

Moving on to the financial costs, which I know Members are keen to understand further, and I think it's only fair that we address this issue as well. The initial research and understanding has shown that this would cost between £9.9 million and £13.6 million to fund, which is around 0.06 per cent of the Welsh Government's total budget. Nevertheless, following the Bill's implementation, I believe we would actually see cost benefits from this Bill, with savings to public services through improved health, well-being, mental health services and education outcomes, along with an enhanced appreciation of the environment. Furthermore, the introduction and support of this Bill would contribute to four key purposes of the Welsh Government's Curriculum for Wales: we would see even more ambitious and capable learners who are ready to learn throughout their lives; we would see enterprising and creative contributors who are ready to play a full part in life and work; we would see more ethical and informed citizens who are ready to be citizens of Wales and the world; and finally, we would see healthier and confident individuals who are ready to lead fulfilling lives as valued members of society.

I'd also like to just update Members as to how this is working in other parts of the United Kingdom. As some will be aware, there's an outdoor education Bill currently working its way through the Scottish Parliament, and it's been extremely useful to talk to colleagues there and understand that there is cross-party support there too for such a proposal. It's also important to outline the support coming from the outdoor education sector when it comes to this Bill, because despite working on this for the last three months, I can't claim at all that I'm an expert, unlike those who are in the outdoor education sector, who live, breathe and work outdoor education day in and day out. And Members will note, as I'm sure they've read the explanatory memorandum, in section 41, the sheer support from leading outdoor organisations across Wales, including Urdd Gobaith Cymru, the Institute for Outdoor Learning, the Wales Council for Outdoor Learning, the Outdoor Education Advisers Panel and Ramblers Cymru. Deputy Presiding Officer, there are a number of organisations that I could go on to list, but there's a huge amount of support out there for this Bill.

I'd also like to express my understanding and reality that a lot more work needs to be done with this Bill. Over the past few months, I and many others have found lots of significant work and data around why the Bill is needed, but there is of course more that needs to be done to understand this fully. And that's why I believe there's a crucial role for opposition and backbench Members of this Senedd to be able to work cross-party to bring forward positive and lasting changes that will complement the work being carried out by the Welsh Government. It's also crucial to note that, by supporting today's motion, it allows me to start the process of working tirelessly over the next year, hand in hand with the outdoor sector, to gain more evidence and data regarding the need for outdoor education residential stays, and consequently present this to the Senedd in a year's time. But it's important to reiterate that today's vote can be used as an opportunity for a backbench and opposition Member to seek to introduce important legislation that will deliver lasting changes and complement the work of the Welsh Government.

So, in closing, Deputy Presiding Officer, I'd like to thank all the organisations and staff who've worked tirelessly in helping me produce the Bill's explanatory memorandum, the statistical paper, along with a summary of the Bill. But I'd also like to thank Members from across the Senedd for taking the time out of their busy schedules to discuss this Bill with me, along with the Minister for education, who I look forward to hearing from later in this debate, and his positive discussions so far. I look forward to Members' contributions to today's motion and welcome discussions and questions regarding my proposals. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

 I call on the Minister for Education and Welsh Language, Jeremy Miles.

Thank you, Dirprwy Lywydd. Outdoor learning is a fundamental element in terms of the well-being of our children and young people. It's a way of helping them to keep physically healthy and can help with their mental and emotional well-being too. It allows them to relate to the world around them, giving them an opportunity to experience the wonders of nature. That's why our new curriculum emphasises the role of outdoor learning across the curriculum, in areas such as health and well-being, science and technology, humanities, and the expressive arts. This is all made entirely clear in the statutory guidance that every school must take account of as they develop their curriculum.

It is crucial that children and young people have the experience of outdoor learning throughout their time at school, and for those experiences to be interesting and memorable. Statutory guidance for the Curriculum for Wales does emphasise the importance of the learning environment as a key motivator in the curriculum, and notes that learners of all ages should have valid learning experience indoors and outdoors. The pedagogical principles outlined in the guidance also emphasise the importance of outdoor learning and teaching. There’s a clear expectation, therefore, that learners should enjoy the outdoor space regularly.

Our statutory guidance on ensuring a whole-school approach of looking at emotional and mental well-being also draws attention to the link between physical and mental well-being, the benefits of outdoor learning, and having access to outdoor spaces. I am therefore very eager to work with the Member and others who have an interest in this issue on ways of strengthening, supporting and continuing to develop the contribution that outdoor education makes to the right to learn in Wales, and the development of our children and young people.

It is, of course, important, Dirprwy Lywydd, to emphasise that different learners have different needs. We want to empower schools to choose the outdoor learning experiences that best support their particular learners in their particular context. That will—and rightly will—look different for different learners, with different contexts at different ages. To be successful, our efforts to promote outdoor learning, which we are all agreed are vital, must recognise this. 

We also need to ensure that learners' access to outdoor learning is something that happens throughout their time in school. We need learners to have ongoing memorable and engaging experiences of outdoor learning that will develop the behaviours and attitudes that instil a lifelong love of the outdoors.

The first concern I have with the proposed Bill is that it intends that one approach to providing outdoor learning and experience should be made a statutory duty. Our new curriculum approach in Wales is to ensure that the experiences of the learner reflect as nearly as possible the needs of that learner. That is not reflected in the approach that the Bill proposes. 

My second concern, which the Member has anticipated in his opening contribution, is that the costs are significant. The Member's explanatory memorandum estimates the bill for this to be around £10 million to £13.6 million. Our early analysis would put it closer to the £18 million mark. Either way, given the current economic climate, this creates another very significant pressure on an already highly pressurised funding pot. We all know that the outlook for public funding over the next few years is extremely bleak. The inflationary pressure on our current funding from the UK Government means that we are getting considerably less for our money now than we would have when it was allocated, and there is little to no sign that this pressure will be eased in the short to medium term. Indeed, there is a very real scenario in which we face even deeper cuts to our budget.

At a time when we are doing everything we can to reduce the financial burden on schools and parents, I cannot add more pressure to the public purse, however sympathetic I am to the broad aims of the proposed Bill. In future, when we reach a point when the funding choices aren't, perhaps, so stark, we might be able to have a different sort of discussion, but in the current climate, it is simply not possible.

However, having recently met on more than one occasion with the Member and with members of the cross-party group for the outdoor activity sector, I know that there is an enormous amount of energy, experience and expertise available to us. The proposal has brought a renewed vigour to the discussion of the merits of outdoor learning, and I would like to work with the sector, alongside my officials and our school practitioners, on ways to encourage more outdoor learning, including outdoor residential experiences, in a way that is practically deliverable.

Areas that could be explored, for example, could include improved professional learning support for practitioners, initial teacher education, resources and supporting materials, and the sharing of good practice, including to help address some of the barriers that schools face or perceive. Such an approach would make practitioners central to a conversation about what works best for outdoor learning, and how this can be done. With the best will in the world, there will of course be less capacity to do all of that good work if we are also engaged in working with the Member on the Bill, but I would hope we could make at least some progress. I know from our discussions with the Member that he would be keen to work together, and I welcome that.

In conclusion, Dirprwy Lywydd, the Government cannot support the Bill, but we are proposing an alternative approach, within the principles of our curriculum, to work instead with the Member and others on developing a package of measures that can be implemented quickly, in the here and now, aimed at strengthening the impact of and access to outdoor education for all of our learners in Wales, without putting an unwelcome pressure on its already pressured funding pot. Diolch yn fawr.

My thanks go to Sam for bringing forward this legislative proposal. It gives a really much-needed airing here in the Senedd to the benefits of outdoor education and activity. It's very timely on the back of the new curriculum, which has been shaped by the heightened realisation of the wide benefits of learning in the outdoors. Indeed, the Welsh Government curriculum guidance states that learning outdoors can lead to high levels of well-being, confidence and engagement; that it supports social, emotional, spiritual and physical development; that it provides opportunities to inspire awe and wonder, to engage and connect with the natural world, to explore the concept of sustainability in a practical way; and to explore a young person's physical potential, develop their ability to assess and experience risk, helping to develop resilience and confidence. So, we're on fertile ground, where, from Welsh Government to front-line educators, there's a drive towards taking our pupils, our young people, into the great outdoors.

The habits of early years are ingrained. If we develop active participation in the outdoors as a child, it sticks with us. In primary school, I was lucky enough to visit Llangrannog for a week, and also an outdoor education centre in the Gower, learning about oxbow lakes and prehistoric burial mounds. In secondary school, we went to Bala, and we canoed and we climbed. Our geography teacher took us scrambling over the mountains and valleys of north Wales, to study glacial moraines, arêtes, drumlins and cirques. We learnt hands on through the Duke of Edinburgh awards, to gold level, how to safely venture into the outdoors in all conditions, and read maps and the hills in front of us, old style. And by the time I left school, I could trust myself, and be trusted by others, to walk back in the snow and the full moon along the Fan Hir ridge, or even to hike those Alps that I never got to as a youngster because there was a fee to do so. I've been there now, and I've literally got the T-shirt. Now, at nearly 60, I still get itchy feet to get out of the Siambr and up high on the mountains, or on our great Wales coast path, or even canoeing the Cleddau. Residential stays are even more profound for a young person than even the best, the most brilliant day excursions. Staying away from home with your peers, with expert and experienced tutors and teachers, is a deeper and more lasting experience. It's the difference between dipping your toes in that mountain stream and full head-and-shoulders immersion in that mountain lake.

With my own background, but also as the current chair of the cross-party group for the outdoor activity sector, of which Sam is a prominent member—and, in fact, many of Wales's outdoor organisations are members, and probably helped him in drafting the legislative proposal—I have an intuitive warmth towards this. But there are, and Sam will acknowledge this, some real and difficult questions to face, which are not to do with the good intent or principle of the proposal, but they go to the heart of the practicality at this moment in time. Not least amongst these—and the Minister touched on them—are costs and legislative time. The proposal isn't clear on costs yet, understandably. It estimates £10 million to £15 million, but it could be more. The costs have a heightened significance right now, at a time when we know that schools, local authorities and the Welsh Government itself are under intense pressures. We anticipate that things could get a lot worse. To mandate schools, local authorities or the Welsh Government to even find another £10 million or £15 million, or more, for residential stays right now—a cost that, I have to say, in better times, would be considered money well spent—is I suspect currently money not available easily, when, at the same time, schools may be this autumn facing decisions on whether to lay off staff, not just whether they can afford an uplift in salaries.

The second issue is that of legislative time and the immense legislative load of Government and the Senedd, and, indeed, the Commission. There's the made-in-Wales legislation, which is ramping up as the programme for government and the co-operation agreement commitments kick in; the unprecedented number of LCMs flowing from the made-in-England and Wales legislation, originating from Westminster; the long tail continuing of the post-Brexit legislation and the pandemic legislation—all this and the pending Northern Ireland legislation and the headlong rush to remove EU retained law from the statute book by December 2023, involving an estimated 2,400 regulations, but we're not sure of the exact number. The legislative workload has never been so stretched; school and public finances likewise. There has never been, Sam, a more challenging time to bring forward a Bill, and I say that as somebody who is supportive of seeing more backbench legislation forming part of our legislative programme. 

If the reality I describe is correct, Minister, then it does fall to you to explain how the spirit, if not the letter, of this well-intentioned proposal can be taken forward. You've started to flesh that up. If we don't have the cash or the legislative capacity right now, that will surely not always be the case. I and others would advocate that our children and young people should have access to the outdoors as a rite—and I say this in capitals—of passage into safe lifelong enjoyment and exploration of the outdoors with all the benefits it brings. 

Minister, you've acknowledged in your statement that a residential outdoor experience could indeed be part of every child or person's life, and that if the timing is wrong now, and the door is not being shut forever on such a proposal, that Government will embark on a new phase of work with the organisations behind the proposal, and the proposer, Sam, and the cross-party group on ways to encourage greater uptake of outdoor experience, and this will look at removing real or perceived barriers to outdoor residential uptake from schools, but immediately, ways in which the sector can work with the new curriculum to maximise opportunities for them and for learners. 

Finally, Minister, if I could simply ask you in closing to make every effort—. I know you've engaged constructively with Sam, and likewise, it's been reciprocated. I want you to continue that dialogue with Sam, with the wider outdoor education and activity sector, and also, dare I suggest, with the cross-party group as well, because this is a well-intentioned piece of legislation, even if the timing is difficult. 

Thank you, Sam, for bringing this forward today. 

I don't avidly follow your Twitter or Facebook, I have to admit; I like to look after my blood pressure. [Laughter.] But I have seen the research that you've referenced, and, certainly, we can all relay the countless benefits there are from outdoor education. Many of us, as Huw mentioned, have had the pleasure of being in Llangrannog, Glan-llyn—all those are invaluable experiences, and we would like to see, I'm sure, every child and young person have that opportunity.

We will be supporting you in taking forward the Bill. We think it's important that some of the issues raised are explored further. Of course, we have questions around the funding. There are some questions I've outlined when we've met and discussed in terms of some of the practicalities there, but we think it does deserve having that additional time and additional focus, for us to understand currently who does and who doesn't have access to this opportunity, what risks there are from the cost-of-living crisis with local authorities in terms of those currently having these experiences missing out, because we can't take that for granted. The thing that really convinced us was, in particular, the fact that we see from the evidence that it indicates worryingly that double the percentage of children who live in the most affluent local authorities attend an outdoor education residential visit compared to those pupils in the local authorities with the highest levels of deprivation. If we're talking about ensuring that every child has the best start in life, then surely it cannot be that it's only the most affluent, those that can afford. So, even if it is looking at how we provide for those families who are currently in receipt of grants in terms of school uniform et cetera, we would love to see this expanded so that more children and young people can benefit. 

I think there are also things that we can tie in with the target of a million Welsh speakers, and our agreement to be working on a Welsh language education Bill, because key to this as well is the opportunity outdoor education provides for children and young people to enjoy through the medium of Welsh, to be able to be in Glan-llyn in a canoe and enjoy through the medium of Welsh, to have all those enriching experiences. Because these outdoor education experiences aren't just for those in Welsh-medium education at the moment. If we're serious about the Welsh language as a single continuum, then this provides a great opportunity to introduce the Welsh language outside of the classroom, in a fun and engaging way. I know that the Urdd have embraced the opportunities provided by this Bill in particular. Wouldn't it be amazing if every child in Wales had the opportunity to go to either Gwersyll yr Urdd in Cardiff here, or Llangrannog or Glan-llyn, and have that fun experience through the medium of Welsh? All of this is possible.

We do believe there are some things—. Of course, finances are the most challenging things. Determining the budgets for residential visits, drawing up a comprehensive plan, are all important, but we agree with the principle that, regardless of family income or demographic, all children and young people should have this opportunity. We need to be mindful as well, of course, in terms of teacher engagement. Teachers, very often, organise such initiatives in addition to what they're doing already. It obviously takes time away from the classroom as well, but they see it as worthwhile, so we would like to see teaching unions engaged in the work as it progresses. But we wish you luck and we look forward to engaging more positively, if this is taken forward. 

I'm more than happy to stand here and support this Bill today, and I'd like to thank my colleague Sam Rowlands for bringing it to the floor. I was delighted to hear the positivity coming from across the Chamber from Plaid Cymru as well. I was delighted when I saw that this Bill was drawn, as I know, just like myself, that the Member for North Wales is passionate about ensuring that every child and young person has this opportunity—I certainly did, when I was younger—to participate in a week-long residential outdoor education visit at some point during their school journey, ensuring that they too can learn new skills and maybe an appreciation for the outdoors, as well as benefiting from it in terms of physical exercise. It is essential that this Welsh Government and governments that follow give the sort of ring-fenced money to deliver this aim, so it ensures that our local authorities and schools are able to deliver these exciting experiences for our youngsters, even when we face tough economic times.

The benefits of residential outdoor education visits for young people are clear for all to see. As well as the obvious enjoyment on the faces of our young people, they are a way to bond with their peers, to share experiences with friends, to promote healthier lifestyles, to improve mental health and, often, to improve educational outcomes. It isn't right that young people from less affluent areas miss out on these opportunities, like in many parts of my south-east Wales region, and it shouldn't depend on where you live or what school you go to. Many of us, like myself, often take for granted the opportunities and experiences that we had growing up, when many children and young people across Wales haven't had these same experiences. This Bill goes a long way to levelling that playing field across Wales, ensuring equality of opportunity, ensuring we don't have a postcode lottery, council by council, to have experiences like this. 

As Sam Rowlands said, if every child were to be fully funded to partake in these activities, initial estimates put the cost between £10 million to £15 million, less than 0.06 per cent of the Welsh Government's budget, although you predict it to be more, Minister. It certainly seems to me that it would be a relatively small price to pay for the education and well-being outcomes for our children that would result from it. Obviously this money needs to come from the centre, and not be put on our local authorities. But we have seen, particularly post pandemic, the investment in outdoor facilities and outdoor spaces, and the increase in outdoor learning, and schools using those learning environments far more now, and the benefits that they have had across Wales. 

As shadow education Minister, I am pleased to see ideas like this coming to the Senedd, which enhance what is already there, and I'd like to thank Sam Rowlands for presenting this Bill today. I put my support fully behind it. I now hope that the Chamber can work constructively on the Bill to ensure that young people don't miss out. I just want to make one final point, actually. I just wanted to make sure that it's made clear that this is an out-of-school opportunity that Sam is proposing, not in-school, as you outlined, Minister. Both are important, and, as Huw quite rightly said, it's a deeper long-lasting experience that is being proposed here. I urge you all today to support this motion and the Bill that Sam has brought forward. Thank you. 

I stand here as someone with a very open mind. I'll be honest, I haven't made a decision on how I'm going to vote, and I do understand that my vote may mean that this continues or doesn't today. So, I'm standing here giving some views. On the one hand, thank you, Sam, for doing this. I like the universality of it. I like the fact that it appeals to everybody, rich or poor, and that there's no discrimination. In fact, that's what some of us believe in relation to universal basic income—that we should all have that income floor. So, I would support the universality of it. I think nobody here—nobody here—disagrees with the principle, so there's no need, in my view, for any further evidence. There's no need for any further arguments that tell us all how either we've benefited from the ability to go away or others have benefited from it. 

I'm just reflecting on Huw Irranca-Davies's experience in Llangrannog. I did go to Llangrannog, but I have absolutely nothing that I could bring from that experience into my adult life. That's not to say that I didn't love it, and I think everybody should have it. It's great that you've got that. I just think there are massive challenges here. Sam talked a bit about it, but we all have houses that we run, and the Welsh Government and Cabinet Ministers are here to balance the budgets. If we spend money on this, what goes? Eighteen million pounds, and possibly more, because it is about capacity, not just the capacity of the Welsh Government staff, but also the capacity of our local authority staff could be going on this. So, I really would appreciate hearing more about that in this debate in order for me to make a decision.

Right now, let's look at what is facing schools, not just here—well, in Wales, we have specific issues—but across the UK. We don't have enough teachers and we want to pay them more. We don't have enough classroom assistants and we want to pay them more. We know that, in schools—and this is a pet project of mine—children have very bad tooth decay, and we actually want to see that happening better at the grass-roots level. Even with the Designed to Smile programme in Wales, between 2 per cent and 5 per cent of children under seven are going to hospital—double the amount are going to hospital to have their teeth removed. They're having anaesthetic and a hospital admission. So, these are some of the priorities. 

Some of us went to the Guide Dogs for the Blind Association reception and we heard about habilitators. They are people who should be working with children who are blind or have visual impairments across our schools in Wales in order to help them to be able to get on in life. There are only 10 in Wales at the moment. That means that children with visual impairment or who are blind actually don't have the ability to get on in life. Those are some of the challenges that are being faced across the UK.

In addition, and I am pleased to support this, Wales has committed itself to free school meals for children. I just don't know how we're going to be able to fund not only those challenges but what you put forward, Sam. So, I would like to really hear from you, as you summarise, what is going to go—literally, what we're going to ditch, what we're going to jettison, if we are going to support this. Diolch yn fawr iawn. Thank you very much. [Interruption.] Oh, sorry. Yes, you can intervene.

No, you'd finished. Samuel Kurtz.

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd, and I congratulate Sam Rowlands on his success in being drawn in the ballot and I'm grateful for the opportunity to speak in this debate on his outdoor education (Wales) Bill.

As someone who was fortunate enough to grow up in rural Pembrokeshire with the countryside just outside my front door, I was always fortunate to enjoy the full extent of our natural world. Indeed, that important link with our environment is one that we shouldn't underestimate. Not just because it nurtures growth and reflection, but because it develops a respect and a learning about the importance of our countryside, rural life, food, farming and wildlife—developing our understanding and strengthening our efforts to protect and preserve. 

Unlike some of my classmates, my love for the outdoors was developed from an early age, but not all children are able to experience the countryside in the same way as I did. Let's make no mistake, to take education outdoors is to bring the natural world into the classroom, and by doing so, you can take a child's education and enhance its quality, value and worth. But, it is for this reason that we need to ensure that every child has equal access to the outdoors. For me and many of my classmates, it was trips to Glan-llyn and Llangrannog, which other Members have mentioned today, Urdd residential camps, that saw them fully appreciate the value of nature. Therefore, I'm really pleased to learn from Sam that the Urdd are supporting this Bill. This was not just the first time that me and my friends had been away from home, but, for many, the first time that they had a chance to experience the real outdoors. From kayaking across Llyn Tegid, as Heledd mentioned, to nature walks and bushcraft in Llangrannog, these opportunities played a critical role in the development of not just myself, but also my friends who weren't as fortunate as me, who hadn't experienced the joys and benefits of our natural environment.

However, not all young people are afforded this opportunity. By granting consent to this Bill, we can ensure that every child, no matter their background, can discover and fall in love with the countryside. And as we've heard from colleagues, the benefits of this are second to none. Whether that be improving physical health and mental well-being, developing better personal and social learning, alongside the growth in cognitive development—all enhancing educational attainment and teaching standards. The impact that an outdoor education can have on our young people goes far beyond what can be learnt in a classroom. Discovering our outdoors brings the world of our countryside, farming, wildlife and rural life right into the classroom and, at this moment, we can ensure that every child has limitless access to these opportunities, of the kind that our education provides.

In responding to the previous Member, Jane Dodds's concerns around this Bill, I would plead with her to offer Sam your support at this stage so that further work can be done on this to see how this can be done, and I think those benefit savings that Sam mentioned at the beginning in opening this debate, where moneys would be saved elsewhere by having healthier children, more educated children—I think that's where there's real value within Sam's Bill today. So, I plead with you to give him support at this stage so that further evidence can be collected and more discussion can be had around this. I commend Sam for his diligence, his dedication and determination in getting this Bill moving forward, and I have no hesitation whatsoever in offering him and the Bill my full support. Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd.

I must say that this proposal does have laudable aims, and thanks, Sam, for bringing this forward for a discussion. I think trying and learning new skills in our wonderful outdoor environment of independence, bonding with others in a day at camp or an outdoor activity are ones you do remember, and it's great for physical and mental health and well-being. I don't remember going to one with school, but I went with the Brownies and Sunday school, and I remember reading to children who were missing their parents, and I know that that is an issue that has been brought up—being away from parents as well is a bit of an issue, but it is good to build that confidence. I think it's so important for children to connect with nature, because if they don't do so as a child, then they won't do as an adult. So, that's really, really important going forward. And I think, with there being a nature emergency as well as a climate emergency, I would like any programme and the curriculum to educate and teach children about the importance of the variety of wildlife and habitats, connecting to nature, and I think that the forest schools initiative is really good.

So, I think it's a really great proposal if there was the funding, and the situation is dire. And according to the new Prime Minister, it's going to get even worse, and I think that there needs to be a reality check here. As you know, I was a Flintshire councillor for 14 years and I was a member of the education scrutiny committee, and I recall that, when we were looking at funding cuts over the years, we looked at the cost of giving that funding to the outdoor education centres. I know that each authority used to give towards Pentre-llyn-cymmer and Nant Bwlch yr Haearn, but, in the end, we had to look at the core funding of education, so we had to remove that funding bit by bit, which was terrible. I remember, under that austerity, every year, we sliced 30 per cent off each budget, and I remember being in the chamber facing opposition members as I was trying to introduce garden waste charges and car park increases, but I was being told by my fellow cabinet members, 'It's either do that, or we cut education.' Now, I couldn't cut education, because it's so important, but I know that other local authorities did and, I'm afraid, Sam, Conwy did cut the core funding for education and caused dire issues there, where they’ve had to cut teaching assistants and staff, and I just can't support this if there isn't that money going forward.

Councils are facing even more funding cuts now because of what's happened over the last few weeks, because of fuel increases, inflationary pressures, and people are talking about going out on strike. I know that Cardiff is facing a £53 million funding gap, Flintshire £26 million, Conwy is about the same, and I think Denbighshire is about £10 million. It's really, really worrying. They're looking at rationalisation of play areas even—play areas; we need them on doorstep play. Closure of swimming baths, public rights of way maintenance, and countryside services—that was on the table to be cut when I was a cabinet member—access to rights of way and country parks. So, without those, what are we going to do? And those are what are on the table now. It's so worrying. We're in such a dire situation. Children are going hungry and cold. It's a matter of priorities, and this is why—. Thank goodness we've got these universal free school meals coming forward; that's so much more important. Schools are looking at wrap-around care, providing that childcare so that mothers can go out to work as well—[Interruption.] Sorry, I'm in full flow at the moment—and becoming warm hubs. That's so important. Further education are providing breakfast because people are turning up at those hungry. These are young adults starving—[Interruption.] I'm sorry, that wasn't a proper intervention, so I won't reply to that.

Speaking briefly to the WLGA education member—

I think the Member has indicated that she is not going to take the intervention. Let her complete her speech.

—he has said to me that the Welsh Government, though, does provide PDG funding, so they do use that money to enable those who are on free school meals to visit education centres at the moment. So, if the Minister could let me know if that funding is being cut, because it is essential.

As I said, schools do not have the resources. Now is not the time for this. The UK Government, the Tory Government, are talking about more funding cuts, and it's those funding cuts that are causing issues here. The Welsh Government spends over 90 per cent of its budget on public service funding. [Interruption.] Absolutely not. And I hope that Sam Rowlands and the Conservatives will support public service funding, not further cuts going forward. This is why I always speak against austerity and cuts to public service funding. That's why I wanted to become a member of this party—to shout out about it. Now is not the right the time. I do support the idea of it, but now is not the right time, and I hope that I got these points across, because I feel very strongly about it. Thank you very much.

Peter Fox is the last speaker.

Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. I'd like to start by saying that I will be supporting this motion today, and I very much welcome the proposal that has been tabled by Sam. Knowing myself how much work goes into designing a Bill from scratch, I really feel that your explanatory memorandum was excellent and really sums up why we need this forward-thinking legislation.

Deputy Presiding Officer, as has been stated in the debate, outdoor education is such an important part of a young person's development. The practical skills that are gained from such an experience are beneficial for later life. It also helps to improve their physical and mental well-being, but also to develop their independence. So, young people should not be forced to miss out on such opportunities. I know personally how my—[Interruption.] Sorry, I thought you were.

Thank you very much for taking the intervention, because as the former leader of Monmouthshire council, you'll be aware that the PDG is one of the ways in which funding is supposed to be directed at giving opportunities to young people whose families can't afford to pay for it themselves. So, having listened carefully to what Sam Rowlands said about the inverse care law going on here, which is that some of the most deprived local authorities are the ones that are having the least outdoor education, it clearly is a major problem. But we have to surely ask, 'Are schools properly using their pupil development grants?' as well as, we have to consider how well we are addressing the inverse care law when it comes to the numbers of voluntary organisations that are supporting schools to enable these sorts of outdoor trips to take place, because we know that charities are far less likely to be operating in poor areas than they are in better-off areas.

Thank you, Jenny, and I absolutely recognise your point and some good points of how that assistance can be used. I'm going to come on a little further, in a moment, to local government funding, but I'll just pick up where I left off. I know personally how my own children and many other Monmouthshire children have benefited from their time at Gilwern outdoor education centre and Hilston Park. There used to be Talybont as well, which was owned by Newport but run by Monmouthshire. And I myself as a young boy, 50-odd years ago, went to Llangrannog as well, because I grew up in Carmarthen, down there. But when I was leader of Monmouthshire County Council, I always made sure that these services were protected, even during times when we received challenging settlements, and we've always had challenging settlements in Monmouthshire. 

I've been very disappointed over recent years when neighbouring local authorities, funded far greater from Monmouthshire, withdrew from that Gwent-based education service and left Monmouthshire on its own holding the baby, but we would keep it going. So, it's important that local authorities as well as schools show a commitment to young people's development, and clearly that was being pulled out in some areas, and they had the resources to do it; they chose not to. So, as that example shows, unfortunately not every young person has equal opportunity to receive outdoor education, and the research paper published by Sam further highlights the barriers to such education: 60 per cent of schools surveyed cited financial reasons; 23 schools do not offer any support to families who are financially constrained, and by far the greatest barrier to inclusion in outdoor education was the inability of families to pay.

Now, I know that we are in challenging times, but you've got to remember that this Bill, if it was to receive Royal Assent, would probably be two or three years down the line, and we're talking about money and financial constraints at this moment. You've got to find reasons why, sometimes, things can happen, not why they can't happen. And that's one of the biggest problems I've found since I've been here in the Welsh Assembly—rather, the Senedd—is why we find reasons that things can't happen and we try to trade off, Jane, with 'What can you do? What can't you do?' Sometimes, you've got to make things happen. People make things happen or people stop things happening, and that's what happens too often. You've got to have foresight, look ahead, see how you can improve the future generations, because these difficult times will not last forever. Look ahead, look to the future, look to our future generations. 

So, it's really important that we do get behind this Bill. I hope that Wales's Government and the Minister will interact more with Sam, moving forward. I'm disappointed that the Government can't support the Bill, and I know that more work and engagement is going to happen. But I ask you, Jane, as Sam did, please think carefully. You're in a very privileged position to hold the casting vote in many ways on decisions here. It's a big responsibility. Don't stifle the opportunity of our future generations; give them an opportunity to breathe. Presiding Officer, I rest my case, and I support the Bill. 

I call on Sam Rowlands to respond to the debate. 

Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer, and can I say how fantastic it has been to listen to Members from across the Chamber this afternoon outlining their views and their support, certainly at least in principle, for the ideas behind the outdoor education (Wales) Bill? It's also always interesting to hear of Members' experiences in the great outdoors and the privilege that they had growing up and in school as well. I just want to reiterate a few points that have been raised today by Members during the debate and discussion, and it's the reminder that outdoor education has proven health and well-being benefits, along with the appreciation of the world that we live in, our environment, which certainly has the ability to shape our youngsters in the long run. We've also been reminded that the statistics and data sadly show that not enough of our young people are able to participate, and this is primarily down to financial constraints. 

We have, of course, heard throughout this Members' concerns about timing and about costs, and they're really important concerns. But, as I outlined in the opening of today's debate, I am convinced that there would be longer-term savings from a physical health and mental health and well-being perspective. I think there would be savings to be gained through the way in which our young people engage with the environment more broadly. And as Members have already outlined here today, the whole purpose of this here today is to enable me, working with others, to look at the nuts and bolts, to look at the detail, to understand fully what the opportunities are and then how that can be financed and perhaps where the savings can come from as well. And as Peter Fox outlined just a moment ago, Bills, as we know, take years to go through the process. So, whilst there are immediate concerns right here and now, absolutely, I understand that, but by giving me 12 months to have a look at the nuts and bolts on this, do the research properly and come back and go through the process, we have a great opportunity to make a difference, a long-lasting difference, in the lives of our young people.

I'm conscious of time, Deputy Presiding Officer, so in closing I'd like to thank all of those who've supported the Bill so far here today. Certainly, Minister, thank you for your engagement through this process as well. I'm looking forward to that continuing. Members of the Senedd, the Senedd support team, councils, the outdoor education, and many others have provided a huge amount of support up until this point, and I hope Members from across the Chamber have heard today and understand the real positive that this Bill could bring, and will allow me the opportunity to introduce this Bill in the future and carry out the work that is needed to be done to deliver long-lasting benefits to our young people and communities up and down Wales. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

The proposal is to agree the motion. Does any Member object? Yes, there is an objection. I will therefore defer voting until voting time.

Voting deferred until voting time.