Item 7 is next, a debate on a Member's legislative proposal, take-up of benefits Bill, and I call on Sioned Williams to move the motion.

Motion NDM8108 Sioned Williams

To propose that the Senedd: 

1. Notes a proposal for a take-up of benefits Bill.

2. Notes that the purpose of the Bill would be to: 

a) ensure that more money ends up in Welsh people’s pockets by increasing take up of Welsh and local authority support payments;

b) place a duty on all public sector organisations to maximise take-up of Welsh and local authority benefits;

c) require public bodies to streamline and make consistent throughout Wales the method of application for such benefits.

Motion moved.

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. I was recently asked by a constituent of mine who is struggling to pay her bills, 'What’s the point of Welsh Government if they can't help us?' It's a valid question, because what good is devolution if we are powerless to protect, at the very least, our most vulnerable citizens? The proposal before you is a way to make the powers that we do have, the resources that we can deploy, more efficient and effective by ensuring every pound—every Welsh pound of support on offer—reaches people's pockets as easily and quickly as possible. The deficiencies, disparities and, during the last decade of Tory Westminster rule, downright cruelty that characterises the UK welfare system have caused hardship for tens of thousands of Welsh people and has seen the Welsh Government forced to step in where Westminster has failed Wales.

The Scotland Act 2016 gave Scotland new powers relating to social security, including responsibility over certain benefits, which the Scottish Government are using to create a Scottish social security system based on dignity, fairness and respect. Plaid Cymru have long campaigned for the devolution of the administration of welfare to Wales, and we’re glad to be moving forward on this issue through our co-operation agreement with the Welsh Government. But, while we wait for progress on that ambition, the support available from Welsh coffers has rightly been fast multiplying and thus evolving into a whole patchwork of payments that are mainly, but not solely, delivered by local authorities. The payments are sometimes means tested, sometimes linked to certain benefits, with eligibility conditions varying, forms and regularity of payment differing, and modes of application mainly separate and often complicated.

Let's take the schemes available to help with fuel bills as an example. In Wales, we have a winter fuel support scheme, recently renamed in its second roll-out from this September as the Welsh fuel support scheme. Eligible households on certain benefits between certain months can claim a one-off cash payment from their local authority. This is different to the winter fuel payment and the cold weather payment, which is offered by UK Government. The fuel voucher scheme is a new form of support to provide crisis help to those households that have to pay in advance for their energy, providing top-up vouchers for those on prepayment meters and a crisis service for households that are off gas. But you can't apply; households have to be referred. The discretionary assistance fund provides two types of grant, one of which, the emergency assistance payment, is available until the end of March to help off-gas households suffering financial hardship to top-up oil and LPG. Those who need emergency support to top-up gas and electricity prepayment meters can also get support, although, if you Google the DAF, you'll get to a Welsh Government page that makes no mention of this. Again, application has to be done through a support worker. So, you get the picture: different eligibility, different rules, different application processes. And this is all meant to help people who are in crisis, who, to be frank, have no headspace for navigating all this while they are worrying about how to keep their kids warm. And this is just support with fuel.

The Bevan Foundation argues for the need for a Welsh system of devolved benefits and services. Its research into the way these Welsh Government and local authority support payments, allowances and grants were administered suggests that changes to individual schemes and their integration into a seamless system could increase their reach and impact. When it first made these calls, there were 12 different grants and allowances, each administered separately, so, even where eligibility criteria were the same, people had to apply for each type of support separately. As with the example I gave regarding fuel support payments, many more have been introduced or eligibility expanded since the start of the pandemic and the cost-of-living crisis. And so the basis and argument for creating a single, seamless, integrated system has thus only increased. 

And support isn't support if you don't know it's there or are unable to access it. The latest survey by Children in Wales included this view from one practitioner who works with children and families:

'It is not enough to say people lack information about their entitlements. Many of the vulnerable people I see would not be able to navigate this complex system without a lot of ongoing support.'

We should bear that in mind while noting that fewer than half of eligible households made an application for the first round of the winter fuel support scheme.

Organisations such as Home Start Cymru, who work across 18 local authorities supporting families with children, agree the situation needs to be improved and simplified. At a recent meeting of the Senedd cross-party group on poverty, they shared views from their Caerphilly Supporting People project. One mother said she didn't know there was a deadline for applying for the cost-of-living payment and so missed out. Another said, 'I got a £326 payment in the other week. I’m not sure what it’s for. But the reference on my bank account says it's just a number.' Staff shared how hard it is to support families with such a complex system to navigate. A common problem is being told by advisers they can't act on behalf of families to help solve things like council tax reduction claims; written permission is needed.

And I think the following quotation from a support worker really crystallises the need for change as proposed by the motion: 'One of the people I supported was a single dad. Although he was receiving universal credit and relying on foodbanks, he had been paying the full amount of council tax for 14 months. I discovered advisers in council tax don't ask if you're on benefits.' We know that council tax arrears are the biggest debt problem for Welsh households. Linking the council tax reduction scheme with eligibility for universal credit would prevent people falling into debt. There would be benefits in terms of a reduction in administration costs and capacity freed up for local authorities and advisers to promote benefits, further boosting take-up.

In answer to previous questions in the Senedd on ensuring maximisation and improvement of take-up, the Minister has pointed to the ongoing work, such as working with local authorities to explore how a single access point could be developed and the sharing of best practice by publishing a toolkit on how to simplify the application process. The Government has also said local authorities can passport those who are eligible for the council tax reduction scheme on to the Welsh fuel support scheme, but fewer than half of our local authorities are doing so. We need a whole-system, holistic approach.

The Minister has spoken about the work going into creating a charter for delivering these payments. And I welcome the fact research is being undertaken by Policy in Practice, funded by multiple organisations, to look at how a common approach can be achieved that would result in that 'no wrong door' approach that we know is so vital and effective. My argument here is that a charter, which is essentially guidance, won't cut it. It won't avoid a postcode lottery; it won't avoid those holes in that crucial safety net. We need a firm statutory footing for a rights-based system that will ensure a coherence and effectiveness, and allow people to apply for all the support they are entitled to in one place. And in Wales, Welsh Government has regulatory powers over local government, so this really is achievable.

There would be a cost to creating a system that speaks to all the systems it needs to, but the benefits are plain. Most importantly, it will help those who need every single penny of help to keep that heat on, to keep the light on, to keep children clothed and fed. Diolch.

Interesting contribution from Sioned Williams, and I share your passion for ensuring that everybody gets what they're entitled to, but that, of course, is a main plank of the Welsh Government's proposals to try and help people through these very difficult times. That's why we have 'Claim what's yours'.

So, I definitely support the administration of benefits to be devolved to Wales, as proposed by the Bevan Foundation, because I understand the benefits that it's had in Scotland. Amidst the unprecedented cost-of-living crisis, it looks very attractive to introduce such a Bill here, but is it within the scope of our powers and is it going to be necessary if, in fact, we get the devolution of benefits agreed by a future Government?

Clearly, we need to improve on what we're doing at the moment, because far too many people are suffering really horrendously. And, at the moment, charities, for example, are really raising the red flag over the numbers of people who are being dumped onto prepayment meters simply because they've run into debt on their existing arrangements. This is very, very worrying, and something that we probably need to do something about, because disconnection by the back door is simply unacceptable. We wouldn't be doing this in relation to water debt, and we don't need to be doing it in relation to enabling people to keep warm and the light on. But whether or not we need legislation to improve on the situation, or whether we need further instruction from Welsh Government to improve local authority assessment of this matter.

I was very concerned to hear Sioned say that fewer than half of the local authorities are passporting the council tax reduction benefit recipients onto other benefits, like the Welsh winter fuel payment scheme. That seems very worrying, because I know that that's certainly not occurring in Cardiff where all council tenants, for example, were automatically passported into the Welsh winter fuel payment scheme last year. Now, the take-up last year wasn't as good as 100 per cent, because it was obviously something that was done in a very short timescale, but now that the Welsh Government's extended the scheme to a greater number of households—400,000 low-income households for this coming winter—although the scheme started on 26 September, I am completely amazed that approaching half the number of eligible people have already taken up the claim. Obviously that's a reflection of need, but it's also a reflection of the competency of people to ensure that they're getting it.

I think that the universal free school meals is a missed opportunity to have a proper conversation with parents on whether they are actually claiming everything that they're entitled to, because I know that local authorities in England have massively increased the take-up of benefits as a result of that conversation that takes place—

Jenny, you need to conclude, please.

—on this. Lastly, I think, if Gordon Brown's proposals for constitutional reform include devolution of the administration of benefits to Wales, and they're accepted by a future Government, would we therefore need this legislation? And, in the meantime, how can we improve the way in which public authorities are engaging in this really important issue?

In January 2019, the Bevan Foundation launched its project on the Welsh benefits system, aiming to develop a coherent and streamlined framework of help in Wales. As they said:

'The Welsh Government and Welsh local authorities provide a number of different schemes which...range from the provision of free school meals to discretionary housing payments.'

They added:

'At present, each of these schemes is viewed as discrete from each other, meaning that claimants often have to make multiple claims to receive all of the additional Welsh support they are entitled to, and creating inefficiency in the system.'

Speaking at the policy forum for Wales seminar on reducing poverty in Wales, welfare reform, local approaches and long-term strategies in March 2019, I noted that Community Housing Cymru had called on the Welsh Government to respond positively to their call for Welsh Government and local authorities to work with Jobcentre Plus in Wales to co-locate services and enable applications for local authority benefits to be made at the same time as universal credit.

Speaking here in September 2020, in the debate on the Equality, Local Government and Communities Committee report, 'Benefits in Wales: options for better delivery', I welcomed the Welsh Government's acceptance of our recommendations that it establish a

'"coherent and integrated 'Welsh benefits system' for all the means-tested benefits for which it is responsible...co-produced with people who claim these benefits and the wider Welsh public"

'and that it used the Oxfam sustainable livelihoods approach toolkit'.

I added, however, that

'We now need words turned into real action so that at last things are done with people rather than to them.' 

'The Welsh Government states that it is finalising actions to take forward following its review of its existing programmes and services'— and they're—

'developing a set of principles and values on which a Welsh benefits system will be based and tackling poverty more widely will only succeed with citizen involvement at its core.'

That's over two years ago.

Speaking here in January 2021, I asked the First Minister how he responded to the calls by the Bevan Foundation, Citizens Advice Cymru and Community Housing Cymru for the Welsh Government to establish a single point of access for benefits and support schemes administered in Wales.

Speaking here in July 2021, I challenged the Welsh Government on the actions it had taken to establish a coherent and integrated Welsh benefits system, as recommended in the 2019 committee report on benefits in Wales. I asked the Trefnydd, who was answering questions on behalf of the First Minister,

'what action has the Welsh Government therefore taken since to turn its words into real action'.

We'll be pleased to support the motion as drafted accordingly.

I think Sioned hit the nail on the head when she said that support is not support if you don't know it's there. I'd like to thank her for proposing this motion. The reality is that many don't take up the benefits they're entitled to—benefits that they desperately need. I believe it is incumbent on the Government to seek out those in need and not to expect those in need to come forward.

There is an inherent stigma in claiming any support; we've seen countless reports highlight this. We've heard that the bureaucracy in applying acts as a barrier; again, countless reports highlight this. As Sioned has mentioned, people simply don't have the headspace or the time to seek out a large range of support from different providers. It's why I subscribe to the principle of universality, it's why I believe in universal free school meals and it's why I believe universal basic services are fundamental.

I believe—fundamentally believe—that any society that is compassionate should set out to ensure that everyone has access to the essentials. If we are going to tackle the cost-of-living crisis, if we are going to wake up from the neoliberal nightmare that is the UK today, then radical solutions, grounded in universality, are needed. I see this as a proposal that takes us in the right direction and I wholeheartedly support my friend's proposal.

I've been to three cost-of-living seminars in north Wales recently, and communication of what benefits people are entitled to was the biggest issue. There have been a variety of suggestions: an online grant checker, printing the CAB advice number on prescription bags from the pharmacy, having community advisers who get to know those hard to reach in the community and a single-point-of-access number, and I'd like the Government to write to everybody, as they did during the pandemic—that's my suggestion as well.

It was also discussed that there was a need for residents and, also, organisations to know what's happening. We need to make every contact count, so that's councillors; CABx; council social care; housing, revenue and benefits departments; and lottery fund officers. The list goes on: doctors, foodbanks, health visitors and district nurses.

Delivering benefits is messy, bureaucratic and costly. Local authorities are short staffed; I saw a local authority advertising for 12 new benefits staff, but each of those were on low pay as well, so that doesn't help. But, fundamentally, if universal credit had an uplift; if we had a universal basic income; if everyone had an inflationary increase; and if public services, which in Wales are a big employer, were properly funded, not cut year after year, people would have money in their pockets to spend in the local economy. Surely, that would be better.

I listen and learn, and those who have money conserve it, while those who don't are most generous and they will spend it—they will buy raffle tickets and they will help the community, spending each last bit of their money helping others, not hoarding it away.

If that change does not happen, we need to devolve social security. I think a fundamental change is needed. We need to get rid of the benefits system and bureaucracy once and for all. Anyway, thank you. 

I call on the Minister for Social Justice, Jane Hutt.

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd, and thank you for the opportunity to respond to this debate on the proposal of a take-up of benefits Bill. I do welcome the opportunity this debate provides to report on the actions the Welsh Government is taking to improve the take-up of benefits and to report on the ways we're driving this forward, in collaboration, particularly, with our local authorities. It has never been so vital that people are encouraged to claim every pound they're entitled to.

Through our every-contact-counts approach, we're taking a proactive stance on the identification of eligibility for benefits, concentrating on the public services that people use the most. And, as the Member proposing this motion has said, our Welsh benefits, which include support like free school meals, pupil development grant access, the council tax reduction scheme, the discretionary assistance fund and Healthy Start vouchers, are a lifeline for hundreds of thousands of people during the worst cost-of-living crisis in over 40 years. This year, our discretionary assistance fund has supported nearly 148,000 vulnerable individuals with more than £16.5 million in awards, help towards council tax bills is claimed by 268,000 people, and 73,024 children receive free school meals, and it's important we put that on the record.

Awareness of the financial support that is available, be it devolved or non-devolved, is increasing in households across Wales due to the success of campaigns like 'Claim what's yours'. Over 9,000 people are so far being helped to claim over £2.6 million of additional income in the latest reports, and I do thank our partners, including local authorities, for their support for our drive together to encourage people across Wales to claim their entitlements by promoting our campaign materials. 

But whilst we are doing excellent work together to raise awareness, I recognise there is more that we can do to streamline the Welsh benefits system, and that is where we are focusing our actions. At present, a person will often have to complete multiple forms that ask for similar information but need to be sent to different departments. I know that this deters people from accessing their entitlements, and that's why the Welsh Government and our partners are absolutely committed to a shared vision of a Welsh benefits system that has that single point of contact, where an individual only has to tell their story once.

The Centre for Digital Public Services is working with my officials to undertake exploratory work and identify solutions that will allow for a cohesive, unified system, and I do welcome the separate research being led by the Bevan Foundation on the barriers to take-up of Welsh benefits. However, whilst we work towards this goal, we're continuing to deliver improvements. We're determined to ensure that the approach taken to administering Welsh benefits is a person-centred and compassionate one, based on rights and entitlements. The work we're undertaking to simplify the Welsh benefits system is supporting our co-operation agreement with Plaid Cymru for the devolution of the administration of welfare and the exploration of the necessary infrastructure required to prepare for this.

An essential element of this work is the benefits charter, an underpinning set of principles for the Welsh benefits system that we produced with stakeholders from our income maximisation group. We're now taking forward our charter from inception to implementation by engaging with people who claim Welsh benefits and delivery partners. Complementing the benefits charter is our best practice toolkit for local authorities, which provides practical tips and guidance on the administration of Welsh benefits. We've developed that toolkit in partnership with local authorities, drawing on their practical and operational experience. We believe it's most appropriate to work collaboratively with our local government colleagues to deliver the toolkit effectively, and we are working with them to share and exchange good practice in the take-up of benefits in Wales.

We've recently seen many examples of best practice, of new payments being delivered by local authorities, notably with the automation of the £150 cost-of-living payment, which in many cases was sent directly to eligible individuals without them needing to make an application—an approach that has now been adopted by authorities under the current Welsh Government fuel support scheme. As Jenny Rathbone has said, more than 185,000 payments have already been paid in less than a month.

So, I do extend my gratitude to all involved, whether working on the front line helping individuals to claim Welsh benefits, or responsible for administering those benefits, for their ongoing commitment to ensuring that people across Wales are able to claim what's available to them. That is where we're focusing our efforts.

Finally, Dirprwy Lywydd, I can't speak at a debate on benefits without mentioning the households across Wales who are facing daily financial struggles, with the highest level of inflation for over 40 years. I know all Members of the Senedd across the Chamber will join my call for the Chancellor to do the right thing and confirm that they will not break their previous promises, and will uprate all social security benefits by 10.1 per cent from April next year. Diolch.

Sioned, you did use all your allocated time for both opening and closing to open the session, but I've agreed to allocate an additional minute to you to close the session, so I'll now give you the time to do so.

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. It's difficult when you're on Zoom and when you've got COVID.

I just want to say to Jenny, who wants to wait, that families can't wait. I would prefer to listen to those with lived experience, rather than Gordon Brown, on what solutions are needed.

Mark Isherwood, thank you for your support. I agree that these are not new ideas. Action is overdue. Imagine if this had been in place a few years ago, before the pandemic and the cost-of-living crisis hit. We heard in the questions earlier today to Rebecca Evans that local authorities are under so much pressure; we should be doing everything we can to help them expand and free up their capacity, and this would do that. We know that Citizens Advice are seeting a 200 per cent increase, and that was back at the end of August and the beginning of September. We need to free up the capacity of those support workers away from filling in forms.

I recognise, Minister, the effort the Welsh Government is making on income maximisation with 'Claim what's yours' et cetera, but we know, don't we, that guidance doesn't always do it. We've seen, when we talked about the cost of the school day, that guidance on school uniform isn't always adhered to, and that's why 'in many cases' isn't good enough. That's why this kind of legislation is needed—so that this is all put on a statutory footing.

I want to thank everybody who contributed to the debate. Diolch yn fawr.

The proposal is to note the proposal. Does any Member object? [Objection.] I've heard an objection, therefore I defer voting on this item until voting time.

Voting deferred until voting time.