Item 6 this afternoon is a debate on the Culture, Communications, Welsh Language, Sport and International Relations Committee report, 'Levelling the playing field: A report on participation in sport and physical activity in disadvantaged areas'. I call on the Chair of the committee to move the motion. Delyth Jewell. 

Motion NDM8152 Delyth Jewell

To propose that the Senedd:

Notes the report of the Culture, Communications, Welsh Language, Sport, and International Relations Committee ‘Levelling the playing field: A report on participation in sport and physical activity in disadvantaged areas’ which was laid in the Table Office on 15 August 2022.

Motion moved.

Thank you, Dirprwy Lywydd. I move the motion on behalf of the committee. It is my pleasure to open the debate today on behalf of our committee to discuss our report on participation in sport in disadvantaged areas. I would like to thank everyone who took part in this inquiry and who shared their experiences with us as a committee, and I’d like to thank the other members of the committee and our clerking and research teams for their work on the inquiry.

Our report, and our debate this afternoon, is about the opportunities that people have to be active when they live either in disadvantaged areas, or live disadvantaged lives. Sport should be played on a level playing field, as we say in English. But unfortunately, it's not like that. The subject of our inquiry was one that a number of our stakeholders asked us as a committee to look into, and it is clearly an important topic for the Government. After all, the Government told us in giving evidence on the draft budget in January this year that

'Sport can be the most effective preventative health tool in the country.'

Please note: it 'can' be. There is potential here, but, as we discovered as a committee when we took evidence, this potential is hindered in too many areas by poverty and a lack of opportunity. And the situation is getting worse. 

Dirprwy Lywydd, the pandemic has exacerbated a situation that was already very poor. The latest data from Sport Wales, from August this year, shows that 41 per cent of people say that the cost-of-living crisis has also now had a negative impact on their ability to be active. And the Sport Wales survey from February this year showed that 40 per cent of adults feel that the pandemic has led to negative changes in their exercise plans. Men, older adults, those from lower socioeconomic backgrounds and people with long-standing conditions or illnesses are the most likely ones to feel that way. People from more prosperous backgrounds tended to feel the opposite.

There is a stubborn deprivation gap in terms of the participation of school-age children in sport, too. Again, according to figures from Sport Wales, in 2022, 32 per cent of children from the most disadvantaged areas were taking part in sports outwith the curriculum three or more times a week. The figure for pupils in the least deprived areas was 47 percent. We have an opportunity to change things. And in light of the scale of the problem, it is disappointing that the Government has rejected our two main recommendations, although we do welcome the areas where the Government has said that it would consider making changes.

Our main recommendation talks about the need to change the system from the top down for sport and physical activity. Our report calls for a new, collaborative, national approach from the Welsh Government. This would be an opportunity to set measurable targets and a defined timetable, over a period of five years. The problems that we have identified are too deep rooted to resolve without that kind of astonishing change, and our recommendation would mean that every person, every agency and every department in the Government would work towards this same common goal. This wouldn’t mean starting again; it would mean the Government setting a definite ambition for taking part in sport, bringing good practices together. All of our other recommendations flow from this main recommendation.

The main other ones that I want to address are the physical activity development grant, which has been accepted in principle by the Government, and the recommendation relating to funding, which has been rejected. The grant, according to our recommendation, would learn from the Active Me—Kia Tū pilot scheme in New Zealand, seeking to improve access for those in disadvantaged areas to opportunities relating to sport and physical activity. And as the Deputy Minister has just returned from New Zealand, where she learned about this work, we would welcome an update from her on our recommendation. Our recommendation is different to the pupil development grant, as it would fund also support to get professional advice to develop plans, sports kit or subscription fees, access to a sports facility, and also travel expenses.

Finally, Dirprwy Lywydd, I will turn to our recommendation on funding. I will give some context to explain this. The Welsh Government has acknowledged that sport can be the most effective preventative health tool. NHS waiting lists grew 50 per cent between March 2020 and April this year, so a tool of this kind would be welcome. But the funding for Sport Wales has plateaued. The final revenue budget for 2021-22 will increase from £22.4 million to £22.7 million in the final budget for 2022-23; that is, an increase of 1 per cent.  And it's estimated that it will increase by 6 per cent by 2024-25, which is much lower than current inflation rates. And capital funding for the same period is down from £8.6 million to £8 million. 

Before we hear from other Members in this important debate, I would like to say that exceptionally good things are happening across Wales. A number of stakeholders applauded the work of Sport Wales—the projects across Wales that are doing such great work and making such a difference in people's lives. Our argument is that, with the right resources, things could be even better. Over recent weeks, we've all enjoyed watching Wales in the world cup. But without timely investment from the Welsh Government, we risk losing the infrastructure to develop the next generation of players—the Bales, the Ramseys of the future. And this applies, of course, to all sports and every activity. We want Wales to stay on top of the world. This would be an investment in the nation's health in so many ways, and I look forward to hearing the views of other Members. Thank you. 

As a member of the committee, can I pay tribute to and thank all those that gave evidence to us on the committee during the inquiry, and, as Delyth has done, thank the clerks and the research team for ensuring that the inquiry was held in a timely and positive manner? Some of us needed their help more than others.

It's surely no coincidence that this report is debated during what's been a massive period for Welsh football and Welsh sport in general, showcasing our nation on a global scale. I think we've truly seen the power of elite sport, but every elite sport story starts from a grass-roots sport story, so that was the focus of our inquiry. The report starts with a quote from the Welsh Government that says that

'Sport can be the nation’s most effective preventative health tool'.

It has proven to be exactly that. Sport and physical activity have proven to provide massive physical and mental well-being benefits, but if only we had the equal spread of opportunity across the country to access those facilities. The World Health Organizaton in 2020 said that globally, one in four adults did not need meet the recommended levels of physical activity. Before the pandemic, only 32 per cent of adults participated in a sporting activity three times a week, whilst there were 40 per cent participating in no activity at all. 

What's been most stark for me is that the most vulnerable members of our society have reported doing less activity than before the pandemic. The evidence we received in the committee found that there were a number of barriers facing those in disadvantaged areas from participating in sport and physical activity. These range from the suitability of facilities available, the lack of safe spaces for doing exercise, reductions in times allocated for sport, and stereotypes that, frankly, belong in the past. The Deputy Minister acknowledged during an evidence session with the committee that those areas of highest deprivation were hit the worst. 

The programme for government includes a brief commitment to providing equal access to sport, but Sport Wales's remit letter includes an important requirement to ensuring vulnerable groups are not excluded from participating in sport. And whilst some of the cross-departmental initiatives being run by the Welsh Government are welcome, it'd be useful to know what discussions the Deputy Minister has had with Sport Wales to ensure they're complying with their remit to ensure that those vulnerable groups are not excluded from sport, and what steps they are taking to narrow this particular gap.

To move on to the other recommendations in the report, I thought it was quite disappointing that the Government hasn't approached these recommendations with the open-mindedness and spirit that they were intended to set this national standard for access to sport across Wales. But I was pleased to see the Government accept in principle recommendation 4 in particular. The opening up of community facilities in disadvantaged areas to increase opportunities to participate in sport is vital to ensure the success and future of getting people from those areas to participate in sport and activity.

Will you give way?

Yes.

I thank Tom Giffard for giving way, and I understand that this particular committee's report is about the participation in sport, but do you agree with me that it's actually a little bit wider than that as well? It's about going, taking part and maybe watching sport in these disadvantaged areas, because that's very good for mental health as well, in a community spirit.

Yes, absolutely, and it's not just—I can't remember the exact quote, but one of our witnesses came to the committee and said that sport was not just for people who are really good at sport; sport should be for everybody as well.

We heard, though, from many giving evidence during this inquiry, that some schools, even though they benefited from twenty-first century schools project money, and part of that funding was to ensure access for the communities in which they serve facilities, that's not always been the case. And where I was a councillor in Brackla before this, I can attest, first-hand, that those facilities, once they were built, were not always available for communities in the way, perhaps, they were intended to be, when they were being designed. I know that this is one of those areas where the Deputy Minister's portfolio and the education Minister's portfolio overlap, but in our efforts to close the gap, we need to make sure that this particular outcome doesn't fall between those gaps.

Mark Lawrie from StreetGames told us that an average family living in poverty will spend about £3.75 a week on sport and active leisure. He noted that that was a 2019 figure, so we can only assume that that might be lower today. And Professor Melitta McNarry told us that she'd seen some information that showed that the average amount spent in deprived areas was £1.50 a week, compared with £10 in more well-off areas. Therefore, it's crucial that the Welsh Government does absolutely all it can to bridge that particular gap to ensure that those from disadvantaged backgrounds are not disadvantaged from participating in sport in the first place.

And finally, in closing, I wanted to highlight something that Noel Mooney, the chief executive of the Football Association of Wales has said on the state of facilities here in Wales, where he said,

'our grass-roots facilities are absolutely disgraceful here. I'm really shocked by how bad the facilities are here'.

Surely, our ambition for sport in Wales must be far higher than that. If we're going to truly deliver a legacy from this world cup, we need a serious levelling up in community facilities—let that be the legacy and let's level the playing field. Thank you.

I'll start my remarks where Tom Giffard left off. I want to thank the committee Chair and the committee secretariat for all the work that they've done in producing this report. It was one of those really enjoyable, actually, committee investigations, because you're always learning things on committees, and listening to the lived experience of different people is always an important part of learning about the impact, or lack of impact sometimes, of policy and what the Government is seeking to do. And in holding the Government to account, it's always useful to listen to what people have to say, and I don't think there's any need for us to debate this afternoon the place of sport in our lives. I only had to listen to my 12-year-old son talking about how he was wearing his football shirt to school last Friday to know how important that was to him. And standing in the stadium watching Wales walking out of the tunnel, for the first time in a world cup since 1958, still—I can still barely explain how it felt—and to sing our national anthem amongst all the different fans from right across the world, and to watch our players standing there taking the pitch is something that will stay with me for the rest of my life, and it's something that's been an ambition of mine all of my life. And it's important, therefore, that we share the ability to enjoy sport and enjoy physical activity with people across all of our communities.

And there are certainly some issues identified in the report, and I hope the Minister will respond to those in her remarks. But what I want to focus on, in this short time, are two elements of the barriers that perhaps can hold people back and stop people participating in sport and physical activity. The first is geography, and the second is socioeconomics. All too often in this Chamber, we will talk about geography in very black-and-white terms—the rural versus urban, north versus south, and the rest of it—but if you live in the Heads of the Valleys, you don't easily fit into either of those particular categories, and the barriers can still be insurmountable. If you don't have the cash or there isn't a bus, then it doesn't matter if there are sporting facilities available in Cardiff or somewhere else, because you can't get there, and if you get there, you can't get home. If you can't afford to pay the heating bill, and your parents are worried at the moment about Christmas coming up, they are not going to be able to pay to go swimming or to pay the subs for a football team and the rest of it. So, those barriers are real barriers and exist in the communities that we represent today, and it isn't a stark contrast between one part of Wales and another part of Wales, because if you're poor in Butetown, then you still have the same barriers to overcome in seeking to access sporting facilities.

But, my concern, in representing Blaenau Gwent, is that we have the same opportunities to produce the next Gareth Bale as Whitchurch does in the centre of Cardiff. I want my children—. My son lives in Hay-on-Wye; I want him to have the same opportunity as a child would if they were growing up in Jenny's constituency in the centre of Cardiff. All too often, they don't, and that's the reality of it. All too often, our poorest communities do not have the facilities that they need to enable people to participate in sport as the communities in the cities and in wealthier suburbs. That's the reality of Wales today, and it needs to change.

I welcome the funding that the Government has announced—I think it's £24 million, isn't it—for enabling schools to develop as community hubs. But, I stood on that manifesto in 2016—in 2016 we needed to be delivering that. We need to look and have the ambition to match the best spending plans in the world. I also took my son—I don't think he'll ever forgive me—to watch the rugby earlier in the autumn, and I took my daughter to watch New Zealand score six tries against us in the best part of half an hour. Now, look, we can't compete with those teams unless our people, our children, our young people, have the same opportunities as their young people have on the other side of the world. That means investing in places, facilities, and investing in our young people.

I'll conclude on this: one of the things—I'm getting too old for all of this nowadays, of course—but one of the great pleasures of my life—. One of my great pleasures of recent years has been the development of female team sports. Because we always remember—. I still remember Mary Peters winning a medal in the Olympics when I was growing up, and she made that impression on me. We've always enjoyed watching female tennis, golf and the rest of it. But, watching the development of women's football and rugby particularly in my life, I think, has been one of the real pleasures in the last few years, and watching my daughter begin to identify, take me to watch Welsh women playing rugby, I think it's been one of the great pleasures. I remember talking to Laura McAllister many, many years ago when she was going off to play football for Cardiff City, and I remember how important that was to her. So, to see now women's sport beginning to have the opportunities and the equalities that it's always deserved and required, I think, is one of the great achievements of recent years, and I very much welcome that. But let's make sure—

And that's a good point to conclude.

—that boys and girls have that opportunity to be the stars of the future. Thank you.

I would like to also echo my thanks to the clerks, my fellow Members, and everyone who gave evidence to us and to the engagement team. I certainly echo Alun Davies's point about the fact that this has been an inquiry that has raised our spirits in terms of watching people's passions and seeing a lot of the projects that are happening to ensure that there is better engagement with sport. I'd like to echo the points made by Tom Giffard in terms of the importance that we heard in terms of being able to enjoy sport, regardless of whether you're good at sport. It's a shock to you all, I'm sure, but I was never very good at sport in school. But, a person enjoys sport and having the opportunity to play, and I did have that opportunity. I do think that that was the saddening thing about this inquiry, was seeing how many opportunities are lost because of a variety of different reasons.

Certainly, in terms of the recommendations, we have to think about them in the context of the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015, that this is not just about sport, it's about participation and health and well-being, and it's also about preventing ill-health in the future because certainly, it's in a number of the disadvantaged areas that we see long-term health problems and earlier mortality rates because of obesity and so forth, and so, we have to look at this as not just expenditure on a sports portfolio; it has to be expenditure by the Government and an investment for future generations, and also that sport is for all ages, and some of the examples that we saw, in terms of the walking football and walking rugby, and how important that is in terms of community and bringing people together once again in the wake of COVID. So, this is something that's beyond the sports portfolio.

I'd also like us to look more broadly in terms of culture and participation in culture, because one of the other things that we heard from the witnesses was that things like dance can fall into both categories—coming through the culture portfolio or the arts portfolio, rather than sport, but that is also something that we need to look at in context.

And I think one of the major things that was raised by Tom Giffard is: what is the point of investing in first-rank facilities, and twenty-first century schools in particular, if not everybody who wants to use them can reach them, if it's only those who have parents or carers who can take them there that can use them and get benefit from them. And that certainly came over very clearly.

I'm sure that we all, as a Senedd, agree that everyone should have the opportunity to take part in sport, whether that's for fun or at a professional level, and this report clearly shows that this is not happening and that not everyone who can go on to the highest level is having the same level of opportunity at present. The fact that access to facilities is a postcode lottery is something that we have tackle, and Alun Davies was completely right—that's not something I say very often—but in this context, he was absolutely right in terms of the geographical element. Of course, there are problems in terms of rural Wales, but this is a broader problem, and we do have people, in the region that I represent, in terms of South Wales Central, who have those barriers, so it's not just about geography.

I also think that we need to note the evidence of Swim Wales, which noted that the majority of the about 500 swimming pools in Wales are located in south Wales, and also note things in terms of increasing costs in terms of keeping swimming pools going. That's not just about sports—that's a skill that can save lives, and we have to think about ensuring that people who leave school can all swim as a critical life skill. So, one thing that we need to look at further is in terms of ensuring that cost or a lack of public transport is not a barrier to participation.

I'd like to draw attention to the point that came over in the research in terms of girls in particular and ensuring that everyone, regardless of their background or their ethnicity, feels comfortable and feels confident in terms of participating in sport. We had a very good example from the Welsh Rugby Union regarding what they've been doing with period products and ensuring that appropriate resources are provided. Those things are so important, and I think there are very good practices happening because of this.

I have to admit that I'm disappointed with the Government's response to the recommendations, with only five of the 12 being accepted, and I would hope, as I mentioned, that this is something that does need to be owned by the entire Government if we want to ensure an improvement in the opportunities for young people and people of all ages to engage with sport. And I do hope that the Deputy Minister does commit to continue to co-operate with the committee in terms of scrutinising and taking action on this report and collaborating with other Ministers to ensure that sport is for everyone, regardless of their background and wherever they live in Wales and whatever level they play at. Thank you very much.

I'd also like to thank all the committee staff and all the organisations that took part in giving evidence for the report.

I think the stand-out message is that sport should be a level playing field, but there are many hurdles that need to be overcome to achieve that. Deprivation is a formidable opposition in all aspects of governance, and sport is no exception to the rule. As was said by Tom Giffard earlier, the average amount spent in deprived areas on sport is £1.50 a week, whereas it's £10 in more well-off areas. The cost-of-living crisis will make it even harder for families to afford for their children to participate going forward, and one interviewee expressed how hard it is to watch children have to sit out because their parents simply cannot afford for them to play. This can have a significant impact on a child's confidence as well as their mental well-being. I'm grateful to the Welsh Government for the support provided through the pupil deprivation grant for their £100 uplift, which has become an essential helping hand to get PE kit and equipment this year.

But the crisis doesn't just hit families. It also has an impact on sports providers themselves. As the Welsh Sports Association explained to us, energy costs and resources at swimming pools, chemicals, and staffing costs are all becoming really expensive, and I'm really concerned about closures of these going forward. Swim Wales noted that, of around 500 pools in Wales, the majority of them are located in the south, and therefore access in the west and north Wales is dependent on travel, as was mentioned earlier. Access to sports needs to be made available within easy reach of our communities, close to where people live. It's so important. And as the Deputy Minister explained during the evidence session, school facilities can bring huge benefits to the local community, ensuring all local residents can enjoy state-of-the-art sporting facilities where schools have received funding from Welsh Government, and that's been really important to keep schools as community facilities, offering sport in local areas.

I think it's important that Sport Wales has carried out a facilities snapshot across different local authorities, and that broadly outlines the provision of facilities in the area attached to schools, and that Welsh Government has also commissioned a baseline survey of schools, which has included questions about the use of the facilities. So, that's been really useful in noting and logging all those. Over the weekend, we heard about Welsh rugby and football and the importance of investing at grass-roots level, and we need to enable access to all and develop pathways for development within each sport. I hope the opening of school facilities to the wider public will help make that a reality, as well as the continuing of capital support through the community facilities programme grant. I know that funding was really useful for enabling Rhyl rugby club to move, and other community centres, as well, to be able to continue to offer sports facilities. And although it's not specifically aimed at sport facilities, grass-roots clubs can apply for this.

It's also important to remember, however, that strong leadership at grass-roots level is just as important as access to these facilities. Coaches and trainers are role models who inspire the next generation of athletes and encourage participation and dedication, so the network of volunteers we have here in Wales is the driving force between local sports clubs up and down the country. As one participant in our evidence sessions explained, volunteers are,

'priceless and the unseen work they do in supporting participation in sports is unbelievable.'

It's these volunteers who are working hard to tackle the impact of rising costs, and it's to them we owe so much gratitude for delivering the mental and physical benefits of participation that sports bring to so many people. Thank you.

I'd just like to start by thanking the whole Culture, Communications, Welsh Language, Sport, and International Relations Committee—it's quite a mouthful—for their hard work and for undertaking this review, for the report, and its recommendations. I was personally delighted that you undertook this review, as this is a body of work that needed to be done, and, as chairman of the cross-party group on sport, it will complement the review that we ourselves are undertaking into the state of sporting facilities in Wales.

The report has unearthed some of the issues that we are also hearing in our CPG review, that there are multiple barriers that prevent those from disadvantaged areas from participating in sport and physical activity, and in many areas across Wales, including, as my colleague Tom Giffard has already said, suitable facilities, a lack of safe spaces, reductions in time allocated for sport, and a lack of disabled facilities. Wales, having participated in their first world cup for many years, which makes us all so proud, got there despite the lack of investment by the Welsh Government over the last two decades, not because of that support. It is nothing short of a national embarrassment to see the current state of many of our facilities in Wales, the unfairness of how investment hasn't been equal to all corners of Wales, and the dire lack of investment into our grass-roots sport.

Things are starting to happen, and I welcome that investment wholeheartedly, but it's small fry when you look at the financial investment into sport and facilities across the rest of the UK. We all know the enormous health benefits, both physically and mentally, that physical exercise brings, as well as a multitude of other benefits. A study commissioned by Sport Wales, undertaken by Sheffield Hallam University, said there is a massive social return on the investment, as, for every £1 invested in sport in Wales, there is a return of £2.88. Whether it be finally ensuring north Wales has that all-important Olympic-sized swimming pool, stadiums, or ensuring that sport doesn't grind to a halt in rural areas at the first sign of bad weather due to a lack of all-weather facilities—a massive barrier to participation during the winter months—now is the time for action. Demand is high, particularly following major sporting events like the world cup. Now we need to match that with investment. We all know that times are hard and money is short, but, with increasing demands on our health service, surely we need to start investing in prevention, as prevention is better than cure, and invest in our future generations, invest in everyone. 

We've seen the FAW make a good start with this, as Tom outlined, but we need this awareness and investment across the board for all sports throughout all parts of Wales. I know the Minister is here today to respond to this debate and I, like many others, would appreciate a concrete commitment today ensuring that money or the wrong postcode won't mean another generation of Welsh people missing out on sport and physical activity opportunities that they can enjoy across the border. We must do better here in Wales. We have a Deputy Minister who appreciates sport, sees and knows the benefits, and I hope that this report will now kick start that large-scale investment that Wales needs to be made to finally ensure not that we just find, develop and retain future sports stars in Wales but ensure that everyone can have access in all parts of Wales, rural areas as well as cities, to sports across Wales, and importantly at all times of the year. Diolch. 

I'm very interested in this subject, and it's excellent that you've done this report. Regardless of your enthusiasm for team sports—football, rugby or anything else—it's vital that every child, regardless of ability or disability, gets to be able to (a) ride a bike and (b) learn to swim. Both are essential life skills in the same category as being able to cook a basic meal or tie your shoelaces. I want to put on record the wonderful work done by Pedal Power in Cardiff, for their work with disabled people. Based in Bute Park, it's not a super-output area of deprivation, but its specialist service provides pleasure and leisure to people young and old who may be unable to participate in other sport. So, it's a really important thing. 

Turning to swimming, I appreciate the money that has been made available to extend schools into community hubs, but £24 million isn't really going to resolve the problem we have with our swimming pools. It's really, really difficult to teach somebody to swim unless it's in a swimming pool, and it is much more difficult to learn to swim as an adult. So, I was particularly interested in the evidence the committee took from Swim Wales, because, brutally, if you can't swim, you may drown, and there's no shortage of spaces to do that in any of our communities. So, we have 500 pools across Wales. I hear that there are fewer of them in north Wales, but it's good that 90 per cent of them have reopened post COVID, but up to one in 10 have not. And it would be really interesting to map exactly where those pools are and whether they are in areas of deprivation. 

Just a footnote to Alun Davies: my community contains some of the poorest families in the whole of Wales; it isn't just Cyncoed and Penylan. So, one of the pools that has not yet reopened is Pentwyn pool. Cardiff Council took the decision to outsource most of its leisure centres a few years ago to a company variously called GLL—its origins are in Greenwich—or Better. Sadly, as far as the people of Pentwyn were concerned, better it definitely was not. Its staff never did any outreach to the local schools, which is one of the most obvious ways of increasing footfall, and the free swimming offer for children, funded by the Welsh Government, was not only not advertised, it was one of the best-kept secrets in Wales, and I used to have to go along in person before the long summer holidays to actually extract from them when and how families could take up the free swimming offer. It really was not an edifying experience. Better never advertised it, presumably hoping that people could get to pay again for what was supposed to have been funded by the Welsh Government, and it was only ever one hour a day at a particular time. So, when the lockdown was lifted, Better refused to reopen Pentwyn leisure centre, citing there was no business case for doing so. This pool is situated in a super-output area of deprivation, which means that most of the children living in families without a car are extremely unlikely to travel further afield to one of the pools that have reopened, because it's at least two bus rides away. I note the RCT initiative to make sure that bus routes serve leisure centres, and that's a really good thing to do, but, unfortunately, most of these families do not have the money for two bus fares any longer.

Temporarily—. I wanted to pay tribute to Steven Moates from Better, who temporarily was allowed to reopen the leisure centre to enable community and voluntary organisations to make use of its ground floor for things that they were able to self-fund. But, sadly, if only that attitude of reaching out to the community had been available earlier, we might not be in the situation we are in today. This excellent individual has now moved on to a new job, and the future of the Pentwyn leisure centre, including its swimming pool, is subject to the outcome of successful contractual negotiations between Cardiff Rugby and Cardiff Council. And this has been going on for months, and there's absolute radio silence, and I cannot know whether it's going to lead to a good outcome, but I fear the worst.

Swim Wales had warned the committee back in May that none of the currently closed pools are likely to reopen—victims of the impact of the loss of revenue from the lockdown. But I fear that most of them are in disadvantaged areas, and the picture is even more gloomy following the autumn statement on 17 November.

I think we need to really understand why it is that schools that children are leaving primary school without half of them being able to swim at all, and this is something that is so serious, because these children, as I said, can drown, and that is one of the key things that I need to understand—what we are going to do to prevent that happening. 

Jenny, can you conclude, please?

Also how we're going to heat our pools, because, unless we do, we're going to simply have to swim in the water that's heated by the sun, which, in this weather, is a rather challenging prospect.

I call on the Deputy Minister for Arts and Sport, Dawn Bowden.

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd, and can I thank Members for what was a very interesting and important debate this afternoon? And in the time available to me, I'm clearly not going to be able to cover each and every point that was raised this afternoon. I will try to concentrate my comments specifically on the report and its recommendations, and I'll pick up one or two others as I go through. But I am very grateful to the committee and the support staff for the time and effort spent in producing this report, and also to those who provided evidence.

As I said to the committee, sport is vital to our national life. It's got a powerful influence on our national identity. It unites us as a nation and it gives us an enviable presence on the world stage, and, clearly, we've seen that in spades over the last couple of weeks or so, haven't we? And it would be remiss of me not to put on record my own huge thanks to Rob Page and the Wales team for their efforts in Qatar. It wasn't to be this time, and I know we were all really upset about that, but I just think this is the start of a very long road for our national football team, and we now look forward to the qualification for the Euros.

But sport has clearly a significant contribution to make in delivering our programme for government, with its reach and influence extending beyond the specific commitments on enhancing equal access, improving participation and building on our provision of sporting facilities across the country. In this context, working with Sport Wales, we will continue to lead the sector and encourage collaboration to nurture and facilitate a population increase in physical activity and to invest effort and resources where it is needed most—where there are significant variations in participation and where there is a lack of opportunity or aspiration to be active.

I know the committee has had concerns about the number of recommendations that were rejected, so I’d like to use this opportunity to expand on the reasons why and also to reassure Members that it’s not because I necessarily disagree with the findings.

Recommendation 1 asks for a new national approach for participation in sport and physical activity in disadvantaged areas. I am not convinced that a new, wholesale approach is required. The reason for that is that Sport Wales’s vision and strategy for sport in Wales was, and continues to be, developed by the sector through an extensive consultation. One of the many important strands in the vision is to ensure that sport is accessible, inclusive and affordable, leaving no-one behind. This underpins a key message in the strategy, which is that every young person has the skills, confidence and motivation to enable them to enjoy and progress through sport, giving them foundations to lead an active, healthy and enriched life.

I’ve also made it clear to Sport Wales in their remit letter that I expect them to ensure the broadest range of vulnerable groups can engage with sport and physical activity and are not excluded from participation. This should include identifying and delivering specific opportunities that enable people in vulnerable or disadvantaged groups and those in underrepresented communities to benefit from sport and physical activity. Sport Wales, through its annual business plan, has responded positively to these objectives in the remit letter and it is right that they should be given the opportunity and the time to deliver against it. To respond to your points specifically, Tom Giffard, I do meet regularly with Sport Wales for updates and to review progress, and I will continue to do that.

Although not a specific recommendation in the report, there has been mention made about adverse health conditions, and I think it’s probably worth mentioning that the Welsh Government has committed to developing a national framework that enables delivery of social prescribing in Wales that is of a consistent, effective and high-quality standard. Sport and physical activity play a central part in delivering those goals, and that is predominantly in most of our deprived areas. In short, and I think as was acknowledged by Delyth Jewell, there is much good work going on already to address participation in disadvantaged areas, underpinned by the clear vision and strategy for sport in Wales, which, as I’ve said, came directly from the sector. A different approach now risks undermining the progress that has already been made.

Several of the recommendations touched on funding, and it’s worth pointing out that the majority of Welsh Government funding for sport is of course channelled through Sport Wales. I expect them to use their funding, and the funding that they receive via the National Lottery, to deliver the objectives set out in the term of Government remit letter, but it is also about the effective use of funding that is allocated to them. It’s worth repeating that we intend to invest more than £75 million over the next three years for Sport Wales to deliver those aims and objectives. This is in addition to support through other Welsh Government funding programmes, such as sustainable communities for learning and the community facilities programme, which were mentioned by Carolyn Thomas.

We’re also investing over £13 million in a range of programmes across 2022-24 as part of our delivery plan for our Healthy Weight: Healthy Wales strategy. But of course, funding isn’t solely a Welsh Government responsibility—sources such as the National Lottery, prize money from major tournaments and local authority budgets also have a role to play in providing support for disadvantaged communities. I have to acknowledge, as Heledd Fychan and others have pointed out, that there is a wider issue around deprivation that cannot be met by sporting investment alone. It is important that there is a whole-Government approach to tackling poverty and deprivation. Of course, we all know that we have been off the back of 10 years of austerity, we are in the middle of a cost-of-living crisis and we are doing what we can as a Welsh Government, but the key levers to addressing some of those key factors are with the UK Government, and not with the Welsh Government. The committee did—

Will you take an intervention on that?

Indeed, of course I will.

I accept the point you make about austerity. Clearly, you and I would agree and could spend the rest of the afternoon agreeing on it. But the Welsh Government has responsibilities as well on these matters, and the budgets that we are debating here today are budgets of the Welsh Government, and so I think it is important that the Welsh Government recognises its own role in addressing these matters and ensuring that we are able to provide the funds that our people need and deserve.

I absolutely agree with you, Alun. What I'm saying, what I'm trying to lay out here today, is that from the Welsh Government's perspective in relation to what we are able to invest in sporting facilities, both revenue and capital, we are trying to maximise the budget that we have to deliver the most effective outcomes.

The committee also recommended establishing a pilot scheme similar to New Zealand's Active Me—Kia Tū programme, and I was extremely fortunate during my recent trip to New Zealand to see how the scheme operates. I was struck by the similarities to what we are already doing here in Wales. Our pupil development grant is designed to help eligible children cover the costs associated with the school day, including school sports kit and equipment, which is primarily what the Kia Tū scheme is about. But other interventions that are already in place that Active Me—Kia Tū is mirroring include our free breakfast scheme, our national physical activity group, and the universal roll-out of free school meals across all primary schools in Wales. We're also working across Government with the health and education departments to develop an active schools programme as part of a commitment as set out in our 'Healthy Weight: Healthy Wales' strategy. I've already given a commitment to this Chamber to discuss the New Zealand programme further with Sport Wales to see what more we can learn from the Active Me project—

Minister, you need to conclude now, please.

—and how it could be developed. 

A couple of recommendations were focused on improving access to school and community facilities, and Members will be aware that the Minister for Education and Welsh Language has announced £24.9 million to support schools to operate and develop as community-focused schools, reaching out to engage with families and pupils, particularly those disadvantaged by poverty. This includes £20 million of capital investment to allow schools to develop further as community assets.

Finally, Dirprwy Lywydd, I want to mention the sports summit that will be taking place a week tomorrow. Since becoming Deputy Minister, I've been impressed by the collaborative spirit that runs through the sector. The summit will capitalise on this, as it aims to bring different expertise and experiences together to ask what an inclusive sport system looks like and what role we can each play in delivering it. We know there are still many challenges faced by people who want to take part in sport and physical activity, and I'm excited to see and learn from the sector in Wales what we can do to make even greater progress in tackling these issues. I'm sure that Members across the Chamber will support us in our efforts to do that.

I call on the committee Chair to reply to the debate. Delyth Jewell.

Thank you, Dirprwy Lywydd. Thank you to the Minister and than you to everyone who has participated in our debate this afternoon.

Tom Giffard marked the timeliness of this debate and the need to support grass roots. Jack Sargeant had picked up on this in an intervention about the fact that engagement with sport—yes, we'd focused on participation—but audience, community engagement, going to see games, are so important as well. Tom, it was Baroness Grey-Thompson who'd made the point to us as a committee, and it was such a powerful point, that sport shouldn't just be about being good at sport, but people should be able to enjoy sport, not excel. That's a really powerful point, and I'm glad that you raised that.

Alun, I agree with you entirely about how enjoyable this inquiry was, because in spite of the really grim picture that we were seeing in so many ways, the passion that so many of the people that we spoke to feel for sport was absolutely inspiring. I agree as well with the point that you were making that when Wales on the world stage does well, it means so much, and that's something that, obviously, underpins so much of what we've been looking at as a committee.

As Heledd also said, our inquiry did gladden our hearts, but also saddened us too. Heledd also mentioned framing this in the context of the well-being of future generations Act, and this is an issue that's been raised a number of times in the debate—I think that is something important to bear in mind. 

Carolyn spoke about the strain that energy costs are having on the industry, especially swimming pools, which Jenny had raised as well. Opening up facilities, I hope, will make a difference to levelling the playing field, but, as Jenny had talked about, there really is an ongoing acutely worrying issue with swimming pools—it's something that the committee will be keenly following. This really is a vital concern. As you were saying, this is an essential life skill. Thank you very much for your contribution as well.

Thank you, Laura, for your words. It's so useful to know that this is going to be taken up by the cross-party group as well. Investment does pay dividends. I think it was the Welsh Sports Association who pointed out to us in evidence that other comparable nations spend five to 10 times the amount that we do on elite sport, and that Wales does very well off a relatively small investment slice. So, that's something that it was interesting that you picked up on there.

I agree entirely with the Deputy Minister's words. I want to add our thanks as well to the Cymru team. They are an inspiration to us all. Your passion for sport is clear to see, and it is such a welcome thing to have that in you, Deputy Minister. On the point you made about our main recommendation, our concern as a committee would be that, if the policy isn't changing and the investment isn't going up, we wouldn't be sure how these really stubborn inequalities will be tackled. 

I know you made the point on the fact that Sport Wales does help the sector in drawing up a national vision, and Sport Wales, obviously, does such important work, but the Welsh Government actually instruct Sport Wales through its remit letter. At the moment there is a term-long remit letter, but as I understand it, there's nothing to prevent the Welsh Government instructing them to change course. That may be something that the Government could take into consideration in terms of the physical activity development grant and what you saw in New Zealand. It is exceptionally positive that you saw what was happening there, and we look forward very much to hearing more as your plans in that area develop. 

In terms of funding, I would say—and I said this in opening the debate—if the Government really believes that sport can be the most effective preventative tool for the nation, then those actions have to meet the rhetoric. I think this is a tension that isn't going to go away.

I do agree with the point that you made, Minister, that a whole-Government approach really needs to be looked at in terms of this, again connecting with what Heledd was saying about the well-being of future generations context to all of this.

A number of Members had made the point about how stubborn the barriers are that we're looking at, whether it's in terms of geography or in terms of the interconnected ways in which different inequalities will affect people's lives. Some of the stories we as a committee heard were sobering. We were reminded that the cost-of-living crisis doesn't just impoverish us, it can imperil us as well, both through making our lives less fulfilling and also in a more acute and worrying way. When budgets are tight, it can make us confront terrible choices. There are two really stark examples that stood out for me from our evidence that I'd to raise in closing.

Firstly, Sport Wales remarked that when food prices go up, some children will, anecdotally, not only be fed less, but this increase in food prices can mean that children do less exercise. Some families in desperation will have to stop their children from going to football club after school, from going to swimming, from going to hockey, not just because of how much the lessons cost, but because exercising makes us more hungry. They'll need more food that isn't there to feel full after practice. Some parents have to take those opportunities away from their children; they have to deprive them so that they aren't tormented by having empty bellies. That's a dreadful choice to have to confront.

Another difficult choice that arises from sport being more unaffordable relates in a very direct way to safety. This, again, came out of Sport Wales's evidence—the fact that more women will find it difficult to afford gym membership. We're going into the winter and it's dark before and after a lot of people's times of work, so women who can't afford to go to the well-lit gyms with treadmills will either not feel able to do that exercise or they'll have to go on pavements instead. The Chamber won't need me to remind you about how unsafe countless women feel, running after dark.

This crisis is making people confront these terrible choices, Dirprwy Lywydd, and they're not always obvious. The different parts of our lives interconnect, and more investment in sport in disadvantaged areas will help countless people's lives in so many ways.

To close, everyone is aware that living a healthier and more energetic way of life has other great impacts, in terms of life expectancy, mental health, socioeconomic opportunities and educational attainment. There is evidence that the ways of living that we develop when we are children are likely to continue into adulthood. For these reasons, ensuring that we have fair play in terms of sports participation in Wales could have a dramatic impact on the lives of people from disadvantaged areas, and I would ask the Welsh Government to pay attention to our recommendations. I am very grateful to everyone who has taken part in our debate today, and I do hope that we will have more progress on this. Thank you very much.

The proposal is to note the committee's report. Does any Member object? No. The motion is, therefore, agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Motion agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.