Questions Without Notice from Party Spokespeople

4. Questions to the Minister for Education and Welsh Language – in the Senedd at 3:57 pm on 14 March 2023.

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Photo of David Rees David Rees Labour 3:57, 14 March 2023

(Translated)

I now call on the party spokespeople to question the Minister, and first of all, we turn to the Conservative spokesperson, Laura Anne Jones. 

Photo of Laura Anne Jones Laura Anne Jones Conservative

Diolch, Deputy Presiding Officer. Minister, since having my education shadow portfolio, I've undertaken a tour of schools across Wales, and resoundingly, the No. 1 concern that they raise with me is ALN, additional learning needs. Reform was needed and no-one disagrees with that, but there are significant concerns about the reality of what is now happening in schools on the ground. Transferring those already diagnosed or identified onto the new ALN has been relatively straightforward, but all those, particularly younger aged children and young people who need to be identified for the first time, are taking worryingly long to be identified or diagnosed, and the waiting time for these children to get that support that they desperately need is astronomically long and extremely concerning to parents, teachers and, of course, heads.

This is not only detrimentally affecting the child or young person in question, as they cannot receive that vital one-to-one support or support that they need, but it equates to them missing out on an education that they need and deserve. It will also mean that a teacher in a class has to focus on the needs of that child who is struggling, which will, of course, have a detrimental effect on the rest of the class as their learning time will be cut short. This isn't just a problem—it's a huge problem, Minister, and differs massively between the 22 local authorities. You're currently failing children across Wales and it can't go on. Heads of these schools are crying out to this Welsh Government for a national solution to this. So, what are you doing as a Government to urgently sort out this problem and ensure that no child misses out on the education that they deserve? 

Photo of Jeremy Miles Jeremy Miles Labour 3:58, 14 March 2023

I thank the Member for the work that she's doing to improve her knowledge at first hand through speaking to schools right across Wales about the implications of the ALN reform. As she said, it's an important set of reforms and it's one that I know all parts of the Chamber are committed to. She says that transferring young people who are currently in the system onto the new system is straightforward—if she's hearing that, I'm very pleased. My experience of talking to teachers is that, actually, there are quite a lot of challenges in doing that, given the numbers involved and the timescales that they're working to. So, I don't think that we should underestimate that that is a challenge for schools as well. 

We've invested over £76 million so far in preparing the sector for implementing the reforms for the next financial year. We've increased the annual budget by £4.5 million to £25.5 million, and in this financial year, we've invested £36.6 million to support implementation, which includes a significant investment in capital costs, but also in additional support for the teaching profession as well.

She will know, I think, that, in relation to a national approach, which I think was the focus of her question, we've identified transformation leads, which are looking at a Wales-wide approach. As she will know, we've adopted a regional approach to rolling out the early stages, but we've got to the point of transition, which requires, as she says in her question, a national approach. So, whether it's to do with Welsh language provision or a range of others, we've appointed transformation leads who will co-ordinate the picture on a national basis, and she will also, I hope, be reassured to know that the programme for workforce development, whilst also drawing, of course, on the work of local authorities and school improvement services, also benefits from a national professional learning programme aimed at ALNCOs, teachers and lecturers so they can develop on an equivalent basis right across Wales. 

Photo of Laura Anne Jones Laura Anne Jones Conservative 4:00, 14 March 2023

Thank you, Minister. We welcome a national approach on this, as we need to absolutely ensure that school budgets have the money they need in the meantime, before this is sorted, to adapt to these extra pressures that are put upon them.

Minister, you'll be aware that the Welsh Government commissioned a resource for sex education in Wales. This ended up with AGENDA being created and used by teachers and schools across Wales on children as young as seven years old. I read through the 150-plus page document, and I have to say I find a lot of the content shocking, lacking in biological fact, and simply not age appropriate or appropriate for children. It states in your document that children as young as two or three know if they're trans, and it also mentions gender bending and sex switching. Minister, we both know that you cannot change your sex. Most concerningly, it talks about creating a secret language to talk about these issues, which of course could be used to exclude parents. Minister, are you happy for children as young as seven to be taught these things, and do you think that it's appropriate? And if you don't think it's appropriate or factually correct, why did this Government commission this work and hand it to every school in Wales?

Photo of Jeremy Miles Jeremy Miles Labour 4:01, 14 March 2023

Well, just for the Chamber to be aware, the letter that I wrote to the Member, the opposition spokesperson for education, now several months ago, I think, asking her to bring to my attention any documents of concern and evidence they're being used in schools in Wales remains unanswered. And the terms in which the Member brings the matters to the Chamber I'm afraid I think rather says it all. I don't think this is motivated principally by the well-being of young people in Wales. 

But the substance—[Interruption.] The substance of her argument is this, if she will listen to the answer. The code that we have voted on as a Chamber is extremely clear about what young people in Wales should learn at which stages of development. There is no doubt about it. If she hasn't read it, she should do so. It is absolutely clear—. She will know, I think, if she has read the document to which she's referring, that it is not a document aimed at two and three-year-olds; it is a document that is for older children in the system. 

The code is very clear. It makes a distinction, which I know she will welcome, between biological sex and gender. It is very clear that the purpose of the resource, and indeed that part of the curriculum, is partly to tackle bullying and discrimination. It is also about tackling gender stereotypes. We don't want to be in a situation where girls are taught that they should be nurses but not police officers, and boys are taught they should be police officers but not nurses. This is part of a rounded education for our young people. 

The resource to which she refers is one that is aimed at teachers, not young people, and provides them with a set of tools to respond sensitively to things that young people are telling them. It isn't a prospectus for them to share proactively in school and it is, once again, just to be clear, to be used in a way that is age appropriate. 

I saw last week the UK Government announcing they're reviewing curriculum resources. I'm sure people in England will welcome that. We've been doing that in Wales since the turn of the new year, and I hope that, by the summer, perhaps we'll have concluded that. And so I'll be really clear: I have an open invitation to the Member to raise with me any concerns that she has, backed up with evidence, in a way that enables them to be addressed. She persists in preferring to bring these matters to the Chamber. She's perfectly entitled to do that, but I think that's the context for her remarks. 

Photo of Laura Anne Jones Laura Anne Jones Conservative 4:04, 14 March 2023

Minister, it's very easy—this AGENDA document, in black and white, has the Welsh Government logo on it and it was commissioned by yourself and your predecessor welcomed it. I've read out some of the things that were included, verbatim, in that document, which says sex switching, which we know to be factually incorrect. It says children as young as two or three know if they're trans. That is outrageous, quite frankly, as a parent. What you're forcing on young people is not based in law or biological facts, Minister. To make matters worse, every child is forced to consume this indoctrination of gender ideology, and you have taken away the parents’ right to opt out of those lessons, which I just don’t agree with. You state that, in most cases, parents’ concerns come from not knowing what’s going on. Information sharing is worryingly different between schools, across schools and across local authority areas. But many parents do know what’s going on, Minister, and still do not want their children learning these dangerous falsehoods. Minister, it’s time to scrap relationships and sexuality education, or, at the very least, give parents back the opt-out option. Would you agree with that today?

Photo of Jeremy Miles Jeremy Miles Labour 4:05, 14 March 2023

I have the advantage over her in being able to see the faces of her colleagues as she’s bringing these things to the Chamber, and it is a picture, because they are as embarrassed as we are all embarrassed. We are all engaged in this Chamber in making sure that there is a curriculum—[Interruption.] We are all engaged in this Chamber in making sure that there is a curriculum that addresses the needs of our young people in a complex and changing world. We want to make sure that they are healthy and safe and not subject to misinformation, and not subject to propaganda and ideological opposition. That is what has motivated most people in this Chamber in supporting the curriculum and the code, and there was a point in time at which she was among those people.

Photo of David Rees David Rees Labour 4:06, 14 March 2023

(Translated)

Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Sioned Williams.

Photo of Sioned Williams Sioned Williams Plaid Cymru

(Translated)

Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. Following the passing of the Tertiary Education and Research (Wales) Act last year, the process of establishing the commission for tertiary education and research has already commenced. The names of the chair and vice chair were published before Christmas, and the process of advertising for other board members is now ongoing. However, there is no white smoke on the chief executive appointment for the commission, four months since the closing date for applications on 15 November last year. So, can the Minister confirm the reason for this delay? Has the appointment process identified a candidate or candidates that are appointable? If so, when does he hope to inform the Senedd of the successful candidate, and does he agree, given the background of the chair and vice chair, that it is crucial that the chief executive should have practical experience and credibility in further education and other post-16 sectors? Thank you.

Photo of Jeremy Miles Jeremy Miles Labour 4:07, 14 March 2023

(Translated)

It's true to say that the commission hasn't been in a position, to date, to say 'Habemus papam' with regard to the appointment, but the work is ongoing to look at the candidates and to appoint the right person. Of course, it is important to ensure that, among the leadership team and the wider board, the range of skills and experiences needed for the commission is reflected.

Photo of Sioned Williams Sioned Williams Plaid Cymru

(Translated)

So, you can't tell us as to when we can expect an announcement in terms of the candidate for chief executive. Because this delay is a concern, given the crucial role that one would expect a chief executive to play in shaping and developing a body that adheres to the ambitious vision that is at the heart of the legislation.

Given that the appointments announced to the leadership of the commission have veered, perhaps, towards higher education, it is crucial that those who will be leading this new body do understand the needs of further education and the communities that all of the providers captured under the commission will serve.

During that transitional period that will happen between the Higher Education Funding Council for Wales and the commission, it is crucial that Welsh Government officials continue to engage with third sector organisations such as CollegesWales through its fora. As the secondary legislation is laid this year, will the Minister therefore explain the nature of the relationship between the commission and Welsh Government, and how any difference of opinion will be resolved? Who will have the final word about the shape and structure of the body?

Photo of Jeremy Miles Jeremy Miles Labour 4:09, 14 March 2023

(Translated)

Thank you to the Member for that. The question that she asks is very important. A great deal of engagement takes place. I chair a cross-sectoral group that looks at the strategic issues, but also at the operational issues when they are issues that a number of bodies have an interest in. Of course, there is a programme of more detailed work that takes place between officials and the officials of the bodies that she mentions.

It's very important that we do ensure, in this coming period, that there isn't an overlap between what we are asking the sector to do as a Government on the one hand, HEFCW on the other hand, and this new body as it is established and as it evolves from that point. There is work happening to co-ordinate, if you like, communication, and to be clear with the sector on when the consultations are about to start, so that that happens in a streamlined way from their point of view. 

The legislation is entirely clear what the responsibilities of the Government are and what the commission's responsibilities are, and when the commission is established there will be a programme of legislation emanating from the Senedd transferring powers to the new body. As that happens, it's the new body that will be responsible for that. There's a detailed programme of work that has been created and, of course, that is evolving, and I've committed to write to the committee to update them and that will be shared with the wider Senedd.