The following amendments have been selected: amendments 1, 2, 3, 4 and 5 in the name of Rhun ap Iorwerth.

We move on to item 7 on our agenda, which is the debate on the draft BBC charter. I call on the Minister for Lifelong Learning and Welsh Language to move the motion. Alun.

Motion NDM6097 Jane Hutt

To propose that the National Assembly for Wales:

Notes the publication by the UK Government of the draft BBC Royal Charter and draft BBC Framework Agreement.

Motion moved.

Thank you very much, Deputy Presiding Officer. I said when we last addressed these matters before the summer recess that I would provide Members with an opportunity in Government time to debate the draft BBC charter upon its publication. Members will be aware that the charter was published by the United Kingdom Government on 15 September, and this is an opportunity for Members to express their views on the provisions contained in that draft. But this is also an opportunity for myself as a Minister and for others to hear, but also to listen to, what Members have to say about the provisions in the BBC charter.

The BBC is one of the most important national institutions that we have in the United Kingdom. It brings us together and it provides us with an opportunity to see ourselves portrayed on the screens, and also to have a debate and a discussion and to be informed about our national life. It is incumbent upon us as politicians and elected representatives to recognise the role that we have to play in supporting and enabling the BBC to continue to perform these functions. In doing so, it’s also important, I think, for us to recognise what is right and proper for us not to do as well. It is not right and proper for any elected politician, in my view, to either abuse or to bully BBC journalists because they do not follow the line that some of us would prefer them to; that they do not ensure that the BBC is a state broadcaster rather than a public broadcaster, and that means that all of us, whatever our private views, have to ensure that BBC journalists and the integrity of the BBC are always protected and enhanced at all times.

The written statement that I released last week was the initial Welsh Government response to this draft charter and framework agreement. What I tried to in that statement was to identify those areas where the charter has been markedly improved, so that it does mandate the BBC to deliver more for Wales and allows the people of Wales via this National Assembly—and the National Assembly rather than the Welsh Government—to hold the BBC and Ofcom more closely to account. These are matters that we’ve discussed in this place for some years.

There are clearly some outstanding issues that we would wish to resolve before the charter is finalised. Yesterday, I met with the Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport and we had what I felt was a very good meeting to discuss our different, sometimes, but joint visions for the future of the BBC. I’m very confident that the Welsh Government and the United Kingdom Government will be able to work together to ensure that we do have the provisions in place that will enable the BBC to serve the whole of the population of the United Kingdom, including Wales.

We have, of course, over recent months, been fully involved in the charter review process. The memorandum of understanding that we agreed last year sets out how the United Kingdom Government, the Welsh Government, the BBC Trust and the BBC executive will continue to co-operate and work on these matters. The draft charter and framework agreement does not include everything that we and other devolved administrations have called for during our discussions with the United Kingdom Government. However, I do believe that, without our direct input into the charter review during recent months, we would not have been in the position that we are today. I was grateful to the Secretary of State for the tone in which her correspondence to Members here addressed those issues and addressed the working relationship between the two Governments. Our contribution to the charter review process has been vital and, I believe, has ensured that the interests of Wales have been well protected.

The charter gives the BBC a much stronger public purpose—to reflect, represent and serve the diverse communities of Wales and the other nations and regions of the United Kingdom. In doing so, it must also now support the creative economies across the UK, including the thriving creative industries we have here in Wales. This means that we can expect more and better content and programming made for Wales, about Wales and in Wales, across the whole of the BBC.

I’m also very pleased that the charter provides a renewed commitment to Welsh language services. The accompanying framework agreement reaffirms the BBC’s partnership with S4C,

‘working together to observe and safeguard the independence of both’.

It also provides a strong financial settlement in relation to the licence fee element of S4C’s funding, which is absolutely essential if that independence is to be protected in the future and if that independence is to be a meaningful independence.

Although the settlement provides S4C with financial stability until 2022, the fact that there is no increase in funding and no allowance for inflation will provide significant future challenges for the channel. The Welsh Government is fully aware of the importance of both of these for S4C and has been clear about the need to protect S4C’s independence and to secure its financial position. I will therefore be asking Members to support amendment 1 in the name of Rhun ap Iorwerth. We will, I should say, be supporting all of the amendments to the motion this afternoon.

I welcome the United Kingdom Government’s intention to carry out a comprehensive review of S4C, which Welsh Government has continually pushed for and which the legislation demanded should take place at five-year periods. This, we believe, should have taken place in parallel with the BBC charter review rather than after it, but we recognise the current situation. We would have preferred a broader, more fundamental review of the public service broadcasting needs of Wales. However, what we need to do is to ensure that the comprehensive review of S4C, which we hope and expect to take place next year, will be one which is comprehensive and which will strengthen S4C in the future.

My concern, Deputy Presiding Officer, in looking at the draft charter and framework agreement was that it would reflect the commitments that the BBC’s director general, Tony Hall, has made in his letter to the First Minister on 12 May and has been discussed in this place on previous occasions. This includes recognition that the portrayal and representation of Wales and the other devolved nations must improve. We also support the intention to have a drama commissioning editor responsible for each nation and we fully expect this to happen, considering Cardiff’s development as a BBC drama hub.

Lord Hall has also made a number of important public pledges to Wales, including additional funding for improving services and for more dedicated content. I am satisfied that the BBC’s mission, public purposes and creative remit are significantly strengthened in the draft charter, clearly and effectively mandating the BBC to deliver much more for Wales. I therefore look forward to Lord Hall’s commitments being delivered upon in full. Let me say what I mean by that: we understand that there are savings targets being announced by BBC Wales and also by the BBC across the United Kingdom. We expect—and I believe that the intention as reported by Lord Hall was—that the additional funding should be in addition, a net increase and not simply a replacement for some of the savings that have been demanded. And that is an important indication of the integrity of the promises made by the BBC. We expect to be able to take BBC pledges at face value and without examining, perhaps, the small print. So, we do expect to see these net additional resources being delivered to BBC Wales over the coming period.

We hope and expect that Ken MacQuarrie, who was appointed last week as BBC director of nations and regions, will proactively and purposefully lead a concerted effort to support BBC Cymru Wales to deliver for Wales and the other devolved countries.

In its annual plans, the BBC will now have to set out how it will deliver upon its new duties, including improving services for Wales. It is required to report in detail on how well it is delivering against these plans and Ofcom will be able to regulate to ensure the BBC does more if the goals it sets for itself are insufficient or if it is falling short of delivering upon them. Crucially, the National Assembly for Wales will also now have powers to scrutinise the BBC, to call it to appear before committees and to hold it directly to account, which, up until now, has been the right of the UK Parliament alone in these matters. It is right and proper that all the Parliaments of the United Kingdom play a role in the accountability of our UK institutions, and this Parliament has to play that role as well. I think one of the crucial issues we need to address as parliamentarians is that inter-institutional accountability that will strengthen the United Kingdom and strengthen United Kingdom institutions. I hope that public service broadcasters will be accountable to this National Assembly rather than this Government, and I believe that that will be an important step forward.

The new BBC board will have a non-executive member for Wales whose job it will be to ensure the interests of Wales are understood and acted upon by the BBC from the very beginning. The Welsh Government will be closely involved in the recruitment of that member for Wales, and our consent is now required before that appointment can be made. So, there has been very real progress on a number of important issues.

Will the Minister give way?

Yes.

Given what you’ve just said, which I wholly agree with, about the importance of increasing the role of this National Assembly in holding the BBC to account, and now that the Welsh Government will have a direct role in the appointment of the BBC board member, would you agree with me that it would be desirable for the Assembly’s culture committee to have a direct role in holding hearings on candidates for that role?

Clearly, how the Assembly conducts its business is a matter for the Assembly and not a matter for Government—[Assembly Members: ‘Oh.’] I would hesitate—I would hesitate—to stand here as a member of the Executive and to suggest to committees how they hold the Executive and others to account. I think there is great talent, knowledge and skill in this Chamber and I would invite all of that talent to ensure that these matters are taken forward properly—[Interruption.] I will give way to the leader of the Conservatives if he wishes me to.

I would just like to endorse what came from the Labour backbenches. I do think it is a fundamental principle, when you’ve spent a large part of your speech talking about the role of the Assembly in scrutinising the BBC, that the Welsh Government could look to its own actions and actually deliver a solution here that would incorporate the culture committee, or some body of this Assembly, in that appointment, as you do with the commissioners at the moment.

I will say to you—I don’t disagree with the fundamentals of his point—but I will say to him that those matters are rightly matters for the National Assembly and not for Government. It is absolutely fundamental to me that the division between the Executive and the legislature is respected and that the legislature itself determines how it operates rather than suggestions from myself, which might or might not be taken well.

I will bring my remarks to a close by saying this: I hope that we are establishing a new way forward; a way forward that will ensure that we do continue to have a vibrant public broadcaster in the United Kingdom; a broadcaster that reflects the life of the whole of the United Kingdom wherever we may be and wherever we may be living; a broadcaster that reflects the United Kingdom to itself and projects the United Kingdom to the world. There are important issues that we need to address and we’ll continue to need to address following this charter in terms of a mid-term review, the licence fee settlement and other changes to the framework agreement. But we have here an opportunity to ensure that public service broadcasting remains in the United Kingdom, open and free; to ensure that we have accountability and to ensure that the accountability is to the democratic institutions of the United Kingdom and not simply to the Governments of the United Kingdom. I think that’s an important principle on which we have progressed over the last few weeks and months.

The Presiding Officer took the Chair.

I look forward to hearing what Members have to say. I look forward to listening to what Members have to say and I will ensure that the debate this afternoon is brought to the attention of the Secretary of State and others considering these matters. I hope that Members will continue to contribute in the way that they have done over recent months to ensure that we are, as an institution here, able and capable of holding all of our national institutions across the UK to account on behalf of the people of Wales.

I have selected the five amendments to the motion and I call on Bethan Jenkins to move the five amendments tabled in the name of Rhun ap Iorwerth.

Amendment 1—Rhun ap Iorwerth

Add as new point at end of motion:

Notes the positive references to S4C in the Draft BBC Framework Agreement and in particular the reference to the shared aim of S4C and the BBC working together to observe and safeguard each other's independence.

Amendment 2—Rhun ap Iorwerth

Add as new point at end of motion:

Calls on the UK Government to ensure that the forthcoming review of S4C's remit and funding, due to take place in 2017, considers the level, and most appropriate way, of funding S4C in the long term to safeguard its independence and to ensure it is able to deliver high quality programmes for Welsh audiences for years to come.

Amendment 3—Rhun ap Iorwerth

Add as new point at end of motion:

Notes with concern the budget consequences of the new ‘cash-flat’ licence fee agreement for BBC Wales.

Amendment 4—Rhun ap Iorwerth

Add as new point at end of motion:

Calls on the BBC to ensure resources are allocated to honour the commitments made in the Draft BBC Royal Charter to audiences in Wales, including:

(a) that the BBC reflects and represents the diverse communities of the UK, and that it raises awareness of the different cultures and alternative viewpoints that make up its society;

(b) that the BBC must support the regional and minority languages of the UK, and to continue to support the provision of output in the Welsh language; and

(c) that the diverse perspectives and interests of the public and audiences across the UK are taken into account in the BBC’s decision-making.

Amendment 5—Rhun ap Iorwerth

Add as new point at end of motion:

Calls on the UK Government to ensure that any future regulator of the BBC is also accountable to the National Assembly for Wales.

Amendments 1, 2, 3, 4 and 5 moved.

Diolch. The draft royal charter and the draft BBC framework agreement arrive at a time when both the National Assembly for Wales and the Government now have a formal consultation role in the BBC and its future. So, I think it’s crucial that we use this role, created in the recent memorandum of understanding, to ensure that Wales’s voice and the concerns of Welsh audiences are heard at the heart of Government and here in the Senedd. To a large extent, that is recognised through the recent creation of the new Culture, Welsh Language and Communications Committee, which I am proud to Chair, but it brings with it a new and serious responsibility to fully scrutinise the way the BBC is funded, as well as the way it delivers its services in Wales. And now that we’ve mentioned the Welsh representative on the board, I’m sure that’s something that, as a committee, we can discuss further—it happens with the Auditor General for Wales. I was one of the Assembly Members who appointed the previous auditor general, and that’s something I’m sure we can set a precedent with with this new committee.

But the charter has come at a time when the debate about how life in Wales is reflected by the BBC, along with its portrayal across the network, comes to the fore once again. My committee will be pleased to have Tony Hall in to scrutinise him, as well as BBC Wales, so that they can answer us directly as to what they are doing here in Wales. As has been said by the Minister, we have received a commitment of additional funding across Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland, but, as yet, no specifics or detail as to what that money will look like, and we must be assured—we must be assured—as the Minister said that this is additional to what Wales will be getting, not created from savings that BBC Wales has to find in the licence fee at the moment.

So, ensuring that Wales has a meaningful presence on the BBC has been given fresh impetus by the corporation’s recent loss of—I’m sure some of you will be sick of hearing it by now—one of its flagships, ‘The Great British Bake Off’. I watch it sometimes, but I’m not obsessive like some people, but it has animated many people’s minds. If it cannot afford to hold on to something that has grown as central to part of the BBC’s make up, can it therefore continue to be all things to all people or then risk losing audiences, pushing them away from the BBC? I think this is an important question we need to address for Wales as well.

We’ve entered—

Member of the Senedd:

Will you take an intervention?

I won’t have time, I’m sorry—otherwise I won’t get through it.

Plaid Cymru have entered five amendments to the Welsh Government’s motion. Amendments 1 and 2 concern S4C. We are pleased that the channel was positively referenced in the framework agreement, particularly the shared aim of S4C and the BBC working together to safeguard each other’s independence. We would also like the UK Government to ensure that next year’s review of S4C’s remit and funding considers the level and most appropriate way of funding it long term. So, we must consider the DCMS—the UK Government money is in the mix here as well. So, we want it to be independent, safeguarded and we want it to deliver high-quality programmes for years to come. Enhancing its remit should go some way to doing that.

So, the Assembly knows well the importance of S4C, not only to Welsh speakers, but to the wider economy also. The channel has been particularly successful in delivering well-paid jobs in areas outside of Cardiff, and we would like to see that enhanced.

We are also extremely concerned about the cash-flat licence, as I mentioned earlier—the cash-flat licence fee agreement. Will that affect the commitments made in the draft charter to audiences in Wales? BBC Wales have announced this month that it would need to find £9 million in savings each year by 2022 in order to cope with the cash-flat licence fee agreement. BBC Wales director Rhodri Talfan Davies has said that he hopes to limit savings in content areas to around £3 million over five years. We had a number of pledges in May this year from the BBC’s director general, including additional funding for improving services. This new money that was promised must be additional, as I said earlier, and not just cover some or all of the savings outlined by BBC Cymru Wales in its most recent statement.

As we’ve heard the Minister say, and I’ll finish on this, Ofcom has now the responsibility to ensure that the BBC delivers on the commitments outlined in the charter. For this to happen, it needs to understand what the people of Wales expect of the BBC over the next charter period, and that’s why I have asked Ofcom to come in to our committee to provide clear evidence as to how they see their role of regulating the BBC in future. I’m also pleased to have heard at a recent event in Cardiff Bay that there will be a Welsh board member on Ofcom’s main central board so that we can also have an input there. I think it’s important, especially with questions over plurality of media here in Wales, with potential difficulties in start-ups—the ‘Port Talbot Magnet’ has said that it will not be able to continue as an online and printed newspaper in my region—we must keep the pressure, not only on broadcasters but on the media in general, and show them that we are serious and that we will be holding them to account. Diolch yn fawr.

Can I thank the Welsh Government for tabling this debate? I hope that the administrations in the other nations of the UK will give as warm a welcome to the final charter as the Welsh Government has. Reading statements by the Secretary of State and the Minister has been as heart-warming as opening a Hallmark Valentine’s card. We even have the Minister applauding a strong financial settlement for S4C’s future. I am tempted to ask you, ‘Who are you, and what have you done with the real Alun Davies?’ [Laughter.] What I like to think has happened, though, is a step forward in the maturity of the relationship between the two Governments. You know, let’s be a little bit generous here. On this clearly non-devolved issue, both Governments have been keen to point out how well they work together, and DCMS can, perhaps, point the way to some other Government departments in the UK about how to work with the Welsh Government and the Wales Office.

The Welsh Conservatives here in the Assembly also welcome the improvements in the draft charter and agreement. I won’t rehearse them all again. I think the re-focus on the rights of nations to fair representation, in both senses of the word, present an interesting test for the Assembly. In supporting all the Plaid amendments, I’m going to concentrate on the last of them.

The Welsh Conservatives have called for dual accountability for many years now, and we welcome the memorandum of understanding between the two Governments. But what happens next? Is there going to be a case study of the value and shape of accountability without direct responsibility? Because the Welsh Government has no direct responsibility for BBC, or any broadcaster; neither does the Assembly. Yet the UK Government has given Welsh Government the task of approving a Wales member of the new BBC board. Now, I appreciate that approving is not the same as appointing, but it effectively means a veto on appointment, and this rather looks like devolving responsibility to the Welsh Government for a decision on an accepted and soon-to-be-reserved area of competence. If so, the Welsh Conservatives, at this point, as you’ve heard, would express some enthusiasm for the idea of a confirmation hearing for that board member, allowing the Assembly to scrutinise a Welsh Government decision or, better still, actually, to be part of making that decision.

On laying reports and giving evidence to Assembly committees—just four things that I’d like you to consider, Minister. The first—and I don’t think that we’re going to disagree on this—is that, in respect of public service obligations, which inevitably cover devolved subject areas, all relevant broadcasters should give account of themselves to this Assembly. I appreciate that today is about the charter, of course, but I detect from debates in the fourth Assembly an appetite that this requirement should not be restricted to the BBC. If better regard for the nation is to be a licence requirement for the BBC, then so it should be for other public service broadcasters. Perhaps a matter for Ofcom, in due course, but I was pleased to hear Bethan confirm that there will be a Welsh member on the Ofcom board on this as well.

Secondly, the target for more production outside London, the strengthening of the nation’s public purpose to reflect the BBC’s impact and contribution to the creative economy in Wales, and the confirmation with respect to Welsh language production, of course, already speak directly to the Assembly’s accepted competence to scrutinise Welsh economic development and the Welsh language. Will the BBC be entitled to refuse to answer any questions that aren’t rigorously confined to those devolved subjects? Will we be shamed into wearing a sort of ‘reserved powers not’ around our necks if we slip over the line? I seriously hope not.

Thirdly, what happens to Assembly scrutiny reports? I’ve raised this with Bethan before. I was very pleased to see the Secretary of State, actually, refer specifically to our reports in her statement, but I think there’s still some work to be done on clarifying how our findings can carry the same weight as those of the Welsh Affairs Select Committee, the culture select committee, or the appropriate Lords committee. Of course, it’s the BBC we want to scrutinise, not just BBC Wales. It is network that hasn’t reflected Wales to the rest of the UK—a fundamental failing in its public service purpose to educate, I think.

Finally, on independence. Minister, you began with this. I’m the first to cringe at the mention of any kind of political interference on this, so I do need some help with section 3 of the charter. This states that the BBC must be independent on all matters—editorial and creative decisions, the times and manner in which its output is supplied. Now, I would say that the screening times and the platforms chosen are material to any scrutiny of decisions that claim to improve the representation of Wales on network, especially with declining audience numbers. So, would questions on those subject areas, and any subsequent recommendations based on that, be considered as interference with independence as defined by the charter?

I think accountability without direct responsibility is new territory, which I look forward to exploring, but I hope that it’s not going to be a distraction from this essential point: that the BBC should represent all parts of the UK fairly, and all parts of Wales fairly. They should not fear scrutiny from any source if they’re doing things properly. Thank you.

I’m pleased to follow a typically thoughtful contribution from Suzy Davies on this. I think this is a significant moment for devolution because the BBC charter covers an area that is not devolved to this Assembly, and the Wales Bill currently goes out of its way to remind us of that—a little gratuitously, in my view. But, nonetheless, it does show how we are able to work past those difficulties, because it recognises both a role for the BBC and for Ofcom to serve Welsh audiences, and the communities that we represent can see themselves reflected right across the BBC. As the letter from the Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport, Karen Bradley, makes clear, this afternoon’s debate will be taken note of by the UK Government in deciding the final form of the charter and the framework agreement that will govern the BBC over the next 11 years. I think there are significant advancements on the previous charter, and I think it’s testimony to the political involvement of this Assembly over the last number of years and, I must say, in particular to a number of Ministers—to the First Minister, who has involved himself considerably in these matters over the last couple of years, and to the current Minister, Alun Davies, and his predecessor, Ken Skates, in engaging deeply. I saw, certainly from my previous involvement in media policy, how these matters have shifted. The involvement of the politicians of Wales was significant in that, despite the constitutional barrier.

So, I’m not going to dwell on the detail of the many welcome improvements; I want to focus instead on some of the areas that I think would benefit from further reflection. There are safeguards within the wording of the charter for this agenda. However, the main barriers to progress, I think, are culture: the culture of the BBC, the culture of the media, and of funding. Old habits die hard. The BBC is not currently serving Welsh audiences properly, not because of a shortage of declamatory statements—we’ve had a litany of those from senior executives over a number of years; they like to show they’re empathetic—but at its heart the BBC is a creatively centralising organisation, and has a deeply entrenched view, throughout its hierarchy, that excellence is best achieved by keeping decision making within the London metropolitan elite. That’s the problem, and I don’t think that the extra safeguards that have been conceded will alter that. It’s easier to change policies than it is to change practice, and, as I say, we’ve had years of assurances from senior decision makers that have not been manifested in decision making around programmes.

The 30 per cent cut we’ve seen in English-language output on BBC Wales between 2006 and 2015 is now widely lamented by the BBC management, and I took Tony Hall at his word two years ago, when he came to Cardiff to say the BBC needed to do more to reflect Welsh life on our screens. I took Tony Hall at his word again when he wrote to the First Minister in May to acknowledge that funding for BBC Wales had reached, quote, ‘unsustainable levels’. And I took him at his word when he wrote to 41 Assembly Members, who’d expressed concern back in May, to reassure us that Welsh programmes would, quote, be ‘an investment priority’ in the new licence fee period. So, for two years he’s admitted there’s a problem. For two years he’s made empathetic noises. But what has he done since saying those things? He’s downgraded the position of the head of BBC Wales, moving Wales further away from decision making, and he’s now slashed another £9 million, on top of the cuts we’ve had over the last 10 years, from the budget of BBC Wales. It shows, doesn’t it, that talk is cheap? But Tony Hall needs to deliver significant investment in Welsh content.

Now, the First Minister and the Communities, Equality and Local Government Committee in the last Assembly and the Institute of Welsh Affairs’s respected media policy group have called for the figure of an extra £30 million to be spent on English-language programmes. Now, this figure has not been plucked out of the air, as the Welsh Affairs Select Committee in Westminster seemed to suggest. It’s based on a doubling of the current output of English-language television programmes, which have been cut, and an increase in the tariff that the BBC can pay to independent programme makers and its own output to ensure the quality is high enough to give it a chance of earning its place on the BBC network. Because that’s the key. It is fantastic to have ‘Casualty’ and ‘Doctor Who’ made a short walk from here, but they do nothing to tell the story of Wales on the screens across the UK. And even the future of that production is now in doubt with the creation of an arm’s-length BBC studios at the behest of the Government. The BBC, to be fair to them, have been put in a vice-like position here. The UK Government have made dramatic cuts to the BBC and we are putting extra pressure on them to spend more money in Wales at a time when they have a declining budget. So, I do sympathise.

We do need a stronger role for this Assembly. It is a UK Government decision to appoint a Welsh member of the board—not just the Welsh Government. So, the UK Government, if they are taking note of this debate, need to reflect further on the role that this Assembly may have.

Finally, Llywydd, the draft charter is a real step forward. But, without changes to the way programmes are commissioned and funded, there’s a danger that the cuts will take us a step back, despite the step forward in language. Diolch.

Well, I agree with almost everything that’s been said in this debate so far and I applaud the mellow and statesman-like preamble of the Minister in relation to the role of the BBC in the national life of our country. There is far too much focus, as everybody agrees, in the BBC on London, even though they have made some moves out in recent years. The success of moving the news department up to Salford shows what can be done with a bit of imagination. As I look out across the bay here, I wonder why we can’t do something similar in relation to the Roath lock complex. There’s plenty of scope there.

The problem in recent years has, to a great extent, been—within a very substantial UK budget for the BBC—that the amount of money that has been available for regional and national broadcasting has been cut. BBC Cymru has had a 16 per cent cut in recent years and S4C in particular, I think, has had quite a struggle to cope with the reduction in its own budget. I’ve been very impressed, visiting them, to see what a lean operation they run. The quality of the management there, I think, is excellent. They’ve had to cope with a cut in budget in the last five years from £101 million a year to £82 million, as we moved from department of culture funding to BBC funding, and the small grant that they’ve retained from DCMS was cut by 26 per cent in 2015. So, they’ve had a 36 per cent cut in budget overall.

That’s a massive reduction in income for a relatively small broadcaster. Considering the unique role that S4C plays as the only Welsh language broadcaster in the world of television, I think that their achievement is significant. But, it’s a pity that they’ve had to cope with those difficulties. I hope that we can take account of that in the changes that will come about, possibly, as a result of this charter revision.

The effects on S4C have been referred to in the report of the fourth Assembly’s Communities, Equality and Local Government Committee, and the challenges that they’ve had to surmount are well set out. But, what we need, I think, going forward for S4C, is not just a series of arbitrary cuts or decisions on funding, but a thorough-going review of the principles upon which S4C is going to be funded. I agree with the evidence that was given to that committee in the last Assembly by Cymdeithas yr Iaith Gymraeg, who said that it simply isn’t acceptable that a department in Whitehall, with a Minister who doesn’t represent Wales, makes the decision about the only Welsh language channel in existence. Therefore, it is right that this Assembly should assume the role of holding the public broadcasters in Wales to account, but also be instrumental in the making of broadcasting policy for these institutions.

So, I support, and my party supports, what has been said by others in this debate today. We will, today, be supporting the Plaid Cymru amendments to this motion as well, although we don’t actually share the view on what’s described as the

‘budget consequences of the new “cash-flat” licence fee’.

We have to remember that this is a tax upon the British people. At a time of austerity, so we’re told, the licence fee has a significant impact upon the incomes of people who are not paid very much. Nevertheless, we are going to support all of the amendments that Plaid has put forward this afternoon.

As a member of the Culture, Welsh Language and Communications Committee, which is so ably chaired by this budding member of the establishment opposite, I hope to play my part in not just the future discussions, but, I hope, following on from what Lee Waters said earlier, in what you might call confirmation hearings, as well. I think it is very important for this Assembly to play that scrutiny role in a meaningful way. Yes, it is going to be the responsibility of the Welsh Government to approve the appointment of who is going to represent Wales in the structure of the BBC, but I do think that this Assembly ought to have a kind of co-decision power in this respect. This is all part of this Assembly, perhaps, flexing its muscles and discovering what its true strengths will be.

So, the charter is a new beginning for the BBC, but then it has a new beginning every 10 years. I think that what is proposed in the changes that are on offer is undoubtedly an advance on what we’ve seen in the past; therefore, my party will support it. Thank you.

A number of Members who have spoken have already welcomed the content of the draft charter and the steps forward that have been taken since the previous charter and the outcome of the constructive discussions that clearly have taken place. But, as we scrutinise the charter, I think it’s also worth bearing in mind that the charter will be in place for 11 years, which is two thirds of the time that we’ve had an Assembly in Wales. So, it will be in place for a long period of time. In this past period, the expectations of the people of Wales and what they expect from the BBC have changed and have increased, and we should anticipate that happening, too, over the ensuing period. So, I would like to see the BBC and the UK Government looking at the charter as a foundation to be built on and to provide greater support over this period, as the expectations in Wales develop.

I have a few specific comments I’d like to make. The appointment system for a Wales representative on the main board clearly is very encouraging, that that should happen jointly. People have already mentioned the role of Government and the broader role of the Assembly itself. But, it’s also worth bearing in mind, I think, that the process in the charter of appointing the chair of the board is still, on one level, in the hands of the Secretary of State at the Department for Culture, Media and Sport in Westminster, for reasons that may be understandable. But, that role is a pan-UK role, including England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland. Therefore, over time, I would like to see that decision also taken in some sort of consultation with the devolved nations of the UK. I think that would be appropriate, given how devolution is developing and the broad-ranging role that that individual will have.

Mae nifer o Aelodau wedi siarad eisoes am swyddogaeth uwch Ofcom o ysgwyddo cyfrifoldeb newydd fel rheoleiddiwr y BBC. Mae Ofcom wedi dweud ei fod yn canolbwyntio ar baratoi ar gyfer y cyfrifoldebau hynny ym mis Ebrill. Bydd yn ofynnol iddo ddyfeisio trwydded weithredu sy'n ei gwneud yn glir ei bod yn ofynnol i wasanaethu cynulleidfaoedd yng Nghymru yn dda, fel ag ym mhob rhan o'r DU.

Mae cynnig Plaid Cymru yn sôn am atebolrwydd y rheoleiddiwr newydd i Gymru, a byddwn yn ategu hynny’n llwyr, ond rwyf hefyd yn credu ein bod eisiau clywed gan Ofcom am yr hyn y mae hynny'n ei olygu yn ymarferol, o ran ei weithrediadau ei hun a’i strategaeth ei hun ar gyfer cyflwyno hynny mewn ffordd ystyrlon. Mae ganddo bresenoldeb yng Nghymru. Sut mae'n rhagweld y bydd hynny’n newid? Mae Bethan Jenkins wedi cyfeirio at y datblygiad cadarnhaol iawn sef bod cynrychiolydd o Gymru ar brif fwrdd Ofcom. A’i dyna’i diwedd hi? A yw hynny'n ddigonol? Rwy'n credu ein bod eisiau clywed y bydd cyfle, a bydd gobeithio, pan ddaw Ofcom gerbron y pwyllgor, i archwilio rhai o'r materion hynny yn fwy manwl.

Mae'r mater llywodraethu yn sylfaenol i’r mater annibyniaeth, ac mae eraill wedi siarad am hynny, fel y mae’r cwestiwn am gyllido. Rwy'n credu mai un o'r pethau mwyaf digalon a welais yn ystod y cyfnod siarter diwethaf oedd gallu Llywodraeth y DU i'w gwneud yn ofynnol i'r BBC, mewn gwirionedd, ddefnyddio ei gyllid ei hun i dalu am rai o'i amcanion polisi—er enghraifft, o ran y ffi drwydded ar gyfer pobl hŷn a rhai prosiectau digidol. Nid wyf yn credu bod unrhyw beth yn y siarter a fyddai'n atal hynny rhag digwydd yn y cyfnod nesaf, sydd yn destun pryder.

Mae'r symiau yr ydym yn sôn amdanynt yn lluosrifau o gannoedd o filiynau o bunnoedd, a'r rheswm y mae hynny’n bwysig yw ein bod wedi siarad am y diffyg yn y cyllid ar gyfer rhaglenni Saesneg yng Nghymru, sydd yn rhan fach iawn o'r mathau o symiau sy'n cael eu colli i'r BBC drwy’r mathau hynny o benderfyniadau. Felly, mae'n ystyriaeth berthnasol i ni, a byddwn yn hoffi gweld ystyriaeth o hynny yn y siarter ac, mewn gwirionedd, rhyw fath o neilltuo cyllideb i Gymru, os y gellir cyflawni hynny.

Yn olaf, ynglŷn â’r cwestiwn o bortreadu, y mae llawer ohonom wedi ei grybwyll, mae’r siarter yn cryfhau, os mynnwch chi, y rhwymedigaeth i adlewyrchu cymunedau amrywiol gwledydd y DU yn ei allbwn, ac rydym ni i gyd, yn amlwg, rwy’n credu, yn croesawu hyn ar ddau lefel: mae amrywiaeth a chynrychiolaeth ranbarthol a chenedlaethol yn gysylltiedig â’i gilydd, ond yn ddau beth gwahanol, a chredaf fod y ddau ymrwymiad yn bwysig iawn. Dyma un maes lle yr wyf yn credu yr hoffwn weld ymhelaethu ar yr ymrwymiadau a gweld eu cadernid yn cynyddu dros gyfnod y siarter. Rydym ni eisiau i'r BBC adlewyrchu Cymru i Gymru, ond yn bwysig, rydym eisiau iddi adlewyrchu Cymru i'r byd. Nid mater o roi i Gymru yr hyn y mae Cymru o’r farn sy’n ddyledus iddi yn unig yw hyn; mae angen iddo fod yn olwg ehangach ar hynny. A dweud y gwir, rhan o swyddogaeth y BBC yw cynrychioli, ar gyfer pob rhan o'r DU, adlewyrchiad cywir o wahanol gymunedau a gwledydd, ac ystyried hynny fel ased. Nid yw, fel petai, yn rhywbeth sy'n ddyledus i Gymru; mae'n gyfres llawer ehangach o rwymedigaethau ledled y DU, a chredaf y byddai'n dda gweld hynny’n cael ei adlewyrchu. Mae gennym yr egwyddorion cyffredinol yn y siarter, ond rwy’n credu yr hoffwn i weld y BBC yn cynnig manylion penodol i wireddu hynny.

I won’t be speaking for very long, but just to endorse much of what’s been mentioned already by a number of Members, which is what is important as a result of the process that we’ve gone through in terms of the charter is what is being taken action on in Wales. There are threats facing BBC Wales and broadcasting in Wales, without a doubt, as a result of the charter that we’ll have in moving forward. There’s no doubt that the charter offers better security and a much better settlement than we had feared early in the process—Wales has much more of a voice and certainly in looking at the BBC through and through, there is much more security in terms of independence and less intervention by the Government. These are principles that are at my core, as somebody who has spent most of my adult life working in the BBC.

But the truth is that only one impact is important as a result of any review of the way the BBC operates, and that is what all of us as viewers and listeners to BBC services experience, and what our constituents all over Wales receive from what they pay for, at the end of the day, through their licence. There is a need, we know, for the BBC to do much more—

Will you take an intervention?

Certainly.

Thank you for taking the intervention. You touched on what our constituents and viewers receive across the whole of Wales. One of the real concerns, irrespective of what we’re talking about here today, is the diminishing audience that BBC services are actually reaching across Wales, from current affairs to its news outlets to its radio outlets. Sadly, in both languages, their audiences are in decline, and there does need to be a fundamental look at the way those services are delivered, so that audiences buy back into that service.

You’re absolutely right, and I agree with the points that you raised. There are particular practical issues with making sure that audiences the length and breadth of Wales are able to watch BBC Wales services through their televisions and their radios, and we need to make sure that the numbers of people who receive English regional programming rather than Welsh national programming is tackled. It all comes down to the offer, and the more BBC Wales does to reflect Wales and the people of Wales back to themselves, the more compelling that offer will be from the BBC in terms of attracting larger viewer and listener numbers.

Mae’n rhaid i BBC Cymru adlewyrchu pobl a bywyd Cymru yn well o fewn Cymru. Dyna pam rydw i wedi bod yn gefnogwr cryf iawn iawn o wario llawer iawn mwy ar raglenni cyfrwng Saesneg ar gyfer cynulleidfaoedd yng Nghymru. Rydw i wedi siarad yn y Siambr yma o’r blaen ynglŷn â’r drefn, yn ystod y broses o droi’n ddigidol, lle yr oedd yna sianel, BBC 2W, yn darlledu yn yr oriau brig yn gyfan gwbl Gymreig, drwy’r iaith Saesneg, i gynulleidfaoedd yng Nghymru. Ond mae’n rhaid hefyd, wrth gwrs, i ni sicrhau bod Cymru’n cael ei hadlewyrchu lawer iawn gwell, fel y clywsom ni’r Gweinidog yn ei ddweud, i gynulleidfaoedd ar hyd a lled Prydain.

Mae’n rhaid, ar ddiwedd y dydd, i lais y sefydliad yma gael ei glywed hefyd. Rwy’n edrych ymlaen at weld y rôl ehangach fydd gan bwyllgorau yn fan hyn, y sgrwtini pellach fydd yn dod o’r Cynulliad Cenedlaethol, o weithredoedd y BBC. Nid ymyrraeth ydy hyn, nid cwestiynu annibyniaeth, ond cynrychioli pobl Cymru. Dyna’n rôl ni. Mae darlledu yn rhan bwysig o’n diwylliant ni, yn rhan bwysig o’n bywyd ni fel gwlad, a’n rôl ni fel Cynulliad, dan yr hyn sy’n cael ei ganiatáu fwy dan y siarter newydd, ydy sicrhau ein bod ni yn cynrychioli’r farn honno hyd at eithaf ein gallu a cheisio sicrhau bod rheolaeth ganolog iawn y BBC, fel y dywedodd yr Aelod dros Lanelli, yn cymryd sylw gwirioneddol o’n hanghenion a’n gofynion ni ar ran pobl Cymru a’n cynulleidfaoedd ni.

I call on the Minister for Lifelong Learning and Welsh Language to reply to the debate—Alun Davies.

Thank you very much, Presiding Officer. I’d like to thank all Members who’ve taken part in the debate this afternoon, especially those Members who had kind and generous words to say.

Can I say, following on directly from what Rhun ap Iorwerth had to say, I think he’s absolutely right in the approach that this place has to take to our responsibilities and to some of those new responsibilities—the points that were made by both Suzy Davies and Neil Hamilton—in terms of addressing the responsibility of creating accountability? It is a very different and a very new way of working, and it is a fantastic opportunity for this place to make that difference. I’m very pleased to see Bethan Jenkins as Chair of the committee and I know that she will seek to ensure that the BBC and others are held to account. Suzy Davies has fears that the BBC may refuse to answer questions. Well, I wouldn’t like to be that BBC representative sitting in front of a committee refusing to answer questions, and perhaps that would speak more than the actual answers that they may well give.

This is about how we change, as Lee Waters said, the culture within the BBC. I agree very much with the analysis from my friend from Llanelli, in that there is a metropolitan culture within the BBC that believes that it knows best for the whole of the United Kingdom. That is not right, it is not fair, and it must change. How do we make a change is a question for all of us. Because it is through accountability, through debate and discussion, that we can help the BBC make those changes. I want to see an exciting and vibrant public service broadcasting environment across the United Kingdom—one that represents all of us, wherever we happen to live, whether it’s Tredegar or Llangefni or elsewhere. I want to ensure that we and our lives are portrayed on all of the services of the BBC. We could not imagine seven days of broadcasting from the BBC without England on our screens. How did they cope with seven years without Wales? It is not right, it is improper, it has occurred, and it must not happen again—and it must not happen again because we have the processes and the means of accountability in place. The accountability that was in place that enabled those failures to take place has clearly failed. The structure of governance failed, the structure of management failed, and the structure of accountability failed. It must not fail again. It is partly our responsibility here in this Chamber, in this parliament, to ensure that it doesn’t fail again.

The public purpose has been strengthened in terms of the new charter. I believe that committee reports will have significant impact if those committee reports are based on the evidence that it has taken. But it is important, and this is a challenge to all of us across the whole of the democratic institutions of the United Kingdom, but also to the BBC. I absolutely agree with the points that were made by Lee Waters. It is for too long we’ve had promises from the BBC. For too long have we been invited to receptions with BBC senior management where warm words have been offered. What we want to see now is action, and we want to see results and we want to see changes. And it is right and proper that that starts with the £30 million investment that has been described already this afternoon. The funding issues that protect S4C, as was pointed out by Neil Hamilton in this debate, are absolutely essential to its independence and ones that we will certainly be continuing to address, both of in terms of the mid-term review of the charter but also the review of S4C. And I hope that, by making these changes in the structures of accountability, by bringing more people into the structures of accountability, then we will change the culture within the BBC, which will mean that the product we see on our screens here and the different services available will themselves be changed in the future. That is a challenge to each and every one of us, and I believe that this place and our institutions are up to that challenge. Thank you very much.

The proposal is to agree amendment 1. Does any Member object? If not, amendment 1 is agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Amendment 1 agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

The proposal is to agree amendment 2. Does any Member object? If not, amendment 2 is agreed.

Amendment 2 agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

The proposal is to agree amendment 3. Does any Member object? If not, amendment 3 is agreed.

Amendment 3 agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

The proposal is to agree amendment 4. Does any Member object? If not, amendment 4 is agreed.

Amendment 4 agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

The proposal is to agree amendment 5. Does any Member object? As there are no objections, amendment 5 is agreed.

Amendment 5 agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

The proposal, therefore, is to agree the motion as amended.

Motion NDM6097 as amended

To propose that the National Assembly for Wales:

1. Notes the publication by the UK Government of the draft BBC Royal Charter and draft BBC Framework Agreement.

2. Notes the positive references to S4C in the Draft BBC Framework Agreement and in particular the reference to the shared aim of S4C and the BBC working together to observe and safeguard each other's independence.

3. Calls on the UK Government to ensure that the forthcoming review of S4C's remit and funding, due to take place in 2017, considers the level, and most appropriate way, of funding S4C in the long term to safeguard its independence and to ensure it is able to deliver high quality programmes for Welsh audiences for years to come.

4. Notes with concern the budget consequences of the new ‘cash-flat’ licence fee agreement for BBC Wales.

5. Calls on the BBC to ensure resources are allocated to honour the commitments made in the Draft BBC Royal Charter to audiences in Wales, including:

(a) that the BBC reflects and represents the diverse communities of the UK, and that it raises awareness of the different cultures and alternative viewpoints that make up its society;

(b) that the BBC must support the regional and minority languages of the UK, and to continue to support the provision of output in the Welsh language; and

(c) that the diverse perspectives and interests of the public and audiences across the UK are taken into account in the BBC’s decision-making.

6. Calls on the UK Government to ensure that any future regulator of the BBC is also accountable to the National Assembly for Wales.

Does any Member object? As there are no objections, the motion as amended is agreed.

Motion NDM6097 as amended agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

That brings today’s proceedings to a close.

The meeting ended at 17:37.