[R] signifies the Member has declared an interest. [W] signifies that the question was tabled in Welsh.

I have accepted two urgent questions under Standing Order 12.66, and I call on Suzy Davies to ask the first urgent question.

Thank you, Presiding Officer. Just give me a second to find the question.

Will the Minister make a statement over plans to merge elements of National Museums Wales with Cadw? EAQ(5)0053(EI)

I’m committed to enabling our heritage and cultural institutions to maximise their commercial performance. I believe this can be achieved by exploring potential new structures and taking the necessary steps to realise the benefits that can be derived from better integration.

Thank you for that response, Cabinet Minister, and for your written statement last week. Thank you, Llywydd, also, for allowing the urgent question so that the statement could receive early scrutiny.

As Welsh Conservatives, we would have no objection to sponsored bodies or bodies within Government making the most of their opportunities to improve all operational activities, including commercial activities. I remember raising this very point with one of your predecessors in the last Assembly. I’m also encouraged to see that a couple of the options before you recognise that Cadw isn’t necessarily best served by being entombed within Government, and that to have access to financial leverage it must operate at least partly at arm’s length. Would that the previous Welsh Government had listened to us in the previous Assembly, perhaps Cadw, the museum and the royal commission may already have discovered improvements to their ongoing partnership practices.

My questions are essentially about the options to merge, and I think they need answering early on in this process. And they are: what lessons did Welsh Government learn from the aborted attempt to exercise its preference to merge Cadw and the royal commission? How would you overcome the royal charter status of the museum? Would you need to use legislation to effect a merger of any activities of the bodies referred to in the PwC report? If you get an early steer from this Assembly, which is in balance, that the merger of functions would be unacceptable to us, would you make an early statement that that particular option would be taken off the table? And finally, looking at models for improved partnership working, can you tell us who you will be consulting with to ensure that no particular body or partner is dominant? Thank you.

I’d like to thank the Member for her question and also welcome the support of the Welsh Conservatives for improving the commercial performance of many of our heritage and historic environment organisations. In terms of Cadw, I’m pleased to be able to tell Members today that, actually, 2016 is on course to be the most successful year in its history. It is part of Welsh Government, but a decision that I took early on in my previous role was to bring the commercial activities of Cadw more in line with Visit Wales and the objectives of the Year of Adventure and the Year of Legends. As a result of this work, July 2016 was the best month on record for Cadw. Income was more than £160,000 higher than in July 2015, and nearly £400,000 higher compared to the first four months of last year. I’m pleased to be able to say that visitor numbers were up 14,000 in July of this year compared to last year. The reason that I state these facts is because it shows what can be done when organisations work more closely together in terms of promotional activity and marketing. The steering group that has been put together encompasses representatives from Cadw, the National Museum Wales, as well as representatives of the trade unions of the workforce who are employed right across the estates, and also the royal commission and the national library. The steering group will identify how Historic Wales can best be constituted so that it can effectively realise the commercial potential of our historic environment service, Cadw, and, of course, the National Museum Wales. The steering group will consider a range of options for Historic Wales that were evaluated in the report ‘Investing in the future to protect the past’, which the Member is aware was prepared by PwC earlier this year. That report, which has been published on the Welsh Government’s website, was informed by a steering group that was chaired by Baroness Randerson. The steering group now is chaired by Justin Albert from the National Trust. He has incredible knowledge of the sector and has great understanding of the Welsh heritage estate, but is independent of the organisations being considered as part of this exercise.

In terms of whether or not we need legislation, well, that will be considered as part of the recommendations that the steering group ultimately reaches. In terms of wider engagement, it’s my intention to go out to a public consultation in 2017, once the steering group has reported back.

This is an appropriate opportunity for us to air some of the concerns that have been brought to us in terms of this issue of Historic Wales. The Minister will be aware of many of those concerns. I’m sure he’s having the kind of e-mails that I’m receiving. May I just place on record in the first place that National Museum Wales is crucial to define us as a nation? In those dark days before we had an Assembly here we looked at the national museum as one of the pillars of our nation, and therefore it’s crucially important. We want an assurance that there’s nothing that’s going to happen that will undermine the future of our national museum.

Therefore, one of the questions is: can you ultimately give us an assurance on the independence of the national museum for the next years? That’s the crucially important point. Yes, we understand the financial issues, but there are also some, such as me, who think that it may be easier if we gave organisations such as the national museum more freedom to provide their own business plans, more than perhaps they’ve been able to do in the past, rather than going immediately towards having some sort of major scheme that brings everyone together, and perhaps put at risk that independence that I mentioned.

Can you also tell us exactly what you see as the responsibility of Historic Wales, because, of course, there are concerns out there, in all parts of Wales, about the lack of discussion that’s taken place? I did ask last week for a debate in this place so that we could air some of those concerns, with more time and energy than we can give them in just an urgent question, and I’m still awaiting that debate in the Chamber. There are concerns about the very real risk that could develop for some of our most valued organisations and institutions as a nation.

And, ultimately, would you agree that it would be a good idea if we could have an inquiry into this whole issue of Historic Wales in the culture committee? Would you as a Minister support such a move so that we can get to grips with the concerns that are around at the moment? Thank you.

In short, to the final question, yes. The Member was not present in 2013 and nor was the Chair of the new committee a member of that committee in 2013 when there was an inquiry into the Welsh Government’s historic environment. The vision that I’ve outlined for Historic Wales is not a vision held by one person or one party. It’s actually a vision that comes from all parties that were present in this Chamber in the previous Assembly. That inquiry recommended a number of changes to the current system. It included members of the three parties and the Liberal Democrats at the time, albeit not UKIP. But during the course of that inquiry it became clear, and I’m going to read a few sections from the evidence that was given, that more needed to be done to ensure that the sustainability of the historic environment sector is guaranteed. That was crystal clear from the outset. The more evidence that came in, the more convincing it was that change needed to take place.

‘Wales is a small country and it needs its lead heritage organisations to work in collaboration if it is to be most effective at serving the people of Wales.’

Not my words, the chief executive of the national museum’s words. He went on to say that the museum

‘believes that the added value achieved through shared funding and collaborative projects with local authorities and third sector organisations is of key importance.’

And I agree. In the recommendations, one of the recommendations was that the Welsh Government put in place mechanisms to better ensure collaboration in promoting the historic environment. I agree. Another recommendation: the Welsh Government should explore options to transfer the responsibility for promoting local authority assets to Cadw. That goes even further than what was suggested for Historic Wales. Another recommendation: the Welsh Government should explore the possibility of establishing a national membership-based heritage organisation in order to promote historic sites. And a further recommendation: the Welsh Government should explore the possibility of establishing a representative umbrella body such as English Heritage to represent non-Government organisations in the third and private sectors. This is precisely what we have taken forward with the programme of Historic Wales.

Now, in terms of the comments that were made by the committee at that time, and albeit that the Members from Plaid Cymru who were on that committee are no longer with us—Lindsay Whittle, and also Rhodri Glyn Thomas, who, as I’m sure you’re aware, is now the president of the national library—they said,

‘We feel that there must be an increased synergy in promotional activities…We support the view…that there is tremendous potential for a more joined-up approach to promotion. We feel that there is an opportunity to be bold and creative’.

We are being bold. We wish to be creative.

In terms of the responsibilities, I think this is very much for the steering group to consider. In terms of identity, let me be absolutely clear that, as part of the vision, the importance of Historic Wales is in maintaining the independence, the identity, the integrity and the core purposes of the national institutions. That is absolutely recognised. The objective of Historic Wales is to enable them to harness their collective expertise, and their resources, to maximise commercial revenues for the benefit not just of our heritage but also for the economy, and also for communities. We have a programme. Many Members are aware of it—the Fusion programme. That attempts to bring together some of our major cultural institutions with the communities that they serve to tackle poverty. That’s exactly what is being achieved via the national museum, working in collaboration with local authorities. It’s exactly what will be achieved by Historic Wales.

Minister, I think we all want more collaboration in the heritage sector. I think that is something that would serve us all well, particularly around marketing initiatives. But, you know, we do face some very hard facts here. The national museum has been an independent body since the 1920s, established by royal charter. The reason we established these great institutions as independent bodies is that so they can stand up to the state and have control over what’s out there in the artistic imagination, which is quite challenging. My simple question to you is that, if the national museum and galleries loses control over its commercial activities, how is it going to run, independent of Government’s choices, lively exhibitions and a choice of special exhibits that they develop? We’ve already heard from Dai Lloyd about the role that was played in developing the national imagination. All these questions come down to fundamental matters of how we imagine ourselves and how we test the coherence of what is coming out from, often, the establishment. How will the independence of the artistic spirit be preserved if, in effect, the museum, via Cadw, becomes a part of Government?

I don’t think anybody is suggesting that the national museum will become part of Government. Far from it. This is going to protect the sustainability, the identity and the independence of the museum, but ensure that we bring together the expertise that is necessary to actually realise the potential of many of our institutions. I’ve talked about the increase in visitor numbers to Cadw sites. I’m not satisfied with where they’re at at the moment. It’s been a record year. It’s the best year that we’ve ever seen for Cadw, in part because of those changes that were made, and the determination to attract new people to Cadw sites. But I want to see visitor figures rise still further. Why? Because it’s good for the economy, it’s good for skills training, it’s good for volunteering, it brings communities together. It’s also good for the heritage sector and for education. I do not believe that royal charters should act as a preventative measure when you have willing partners within those institutions that want to come together to bring expertise and resources together for the benefit of all, and that is precisely what the steering group will be considering. And, as I’ve already said, the steering group is made up of senior figures from those national institutions who, thus far, have been part of other groups, led by Baroness Randerson, and who have advocated, so far, coming together on a more collaborative basis.

Clearly, Minister, there is anxiety in the sector, and that anxiety does seem to have spilled over into Members’ e-mail inboxes. Would the Minister make sure, when he’s reflecting on the independent recommendations of a report by a former Liberal Democrat Minister, and reflecting on the report of an independent steering group that he has set up, that he puts the interests of the users at the heart of this and not any institutional boundaries and professional interests? Clearly, there’s a need to bring people along with any change and to listen to all the arguments of people at the coalface, but I think people need to relax a little bit and listen to what the evidence says, and let the processes that you’ve set out take their course.

The Member is absolutely right: this is about users—i.e. the people of Wales whom we serve and the institutions must serve as well. It’s also about the people who are employed in the institutions. The greatest anxiety that can be caused is job insecurity, and what this aims to do is ensure the long-term sustainability of those institutions, so that those jobs that are there at the moment aren’t just guaranteed, but that there are opportunities for many more people to enter what is a sector that can attract people right across the age range, from all demographics. I’m pleased that we’ve taken the work so far. I hope that the steering group will embrace this agenda and deliver a very creative and a very bold solution to what is a problem that I think everybody in this Chamber has recognised—that there must be greater collaboration and integration of what they do.

I thank the Cabinet Secretary.