We move on now to a statement by the Cabinet Secretary for Finance and Local Government on local government reform, and I call on the Cabinet Secretary for Finance and Local Government to make the statement. Mark Drakeford.

Thank you very much, temporary Deputy Presiding Officer. At the end of January, the Welsh Government published a White Paper on local government reform. This set out proposals to secure resilience and renewal in local government in Wales, including arrangements for regional working and a strengthened role for councillors and councils. Today, I published a summary report of almost 170 responses to the consultation and set out the way forward for local government reform.

I’d like to thank the Chair and members of the Equality, Local Government and Communities Committee who undertook scrutiny of the reform proposal. I’d also like to thank the Chair and members of the Public Accounts Committee who considered a number of issues that touched on aspects of the White Paper and provided their thoughts.

Dirprwy Lywydd dros dro, mae tair prif elfen i'n cynigion yr hoffwn i ddiweddaru’r Aelodau yn eu cylch heddiw. Yn gyntaf, yr elfen o ddiwygio ein cynghorau tref a chymuned. Mae cynghorau tref a chymuned yn rhan annatod o lywodraeth leol. Yn ddaearyddol, nhw sydd agosaf at bobl a chymunedau ac fe allen nhw fod mewn sefyllfa unigryw i weld a darparu ystod o wasanaethau a all gael effaith sylweddol ar les eu cymunedau. Roedd y Papur Gwyn yn disgrifio diwygiadau ymarferol yr ydym ni’n eu gwneud ar hyn o bryd i gryfhau swyddogaeth cynghorau tref a chymuned ac i wella sut maen nhw’n gweithio a sut y cawn nhw eu llywodraethu, gan eu galluogi i ymgymryd â darpariaeth ehangach o grŵp ehangach o wasanaethau ac asedau.

Fodd bynnag, er mwyn cael dealltwriaeth ehangach o botensial cynghorau tref a chymuned, mae angen adolygiad trylwyr o’r holl sector arnom ni. Mae'r adolygiad hwnnw yn awr wedi cychwyn. Yn fras, bydd yn edrych ar swyddogaeth bosibl llywodraeth leol islaw lefel y prif gyngor. Bydd yn diffinio'r model a’r strwythur mwyaf effeithiol i gyflawni’r cyfraniad hwn yn effeithiol, a bydd yn ystyried sut y gellir gweithredu hyn ledled Cymru. Rwy’n disgwyl i'r adolygiad gynnwys yr holl randdeiliaid perthnasol ac iddo gael ei gwblhau mewn blwyddyn. Rwy'n ddiolchgar iawn i Gwenda Thomas, ac i Rhodri Glyn Thomas am gytuno i gyd-gadeirio'r adolygiad. Maen nhw’n brofiadol iawn ynglŷn â phob haen o lywodraeth yng Nghymru ac mae ganddyn nhw grebwyll penodol o'r materion sydd yn y fantol wrth geisio cryfhau ac adfywio’r haen fwyaf leol hon o ddemocratiaeth yng Nghymru.

Cadeirydd, yn gynharach heddiw, cyhoeddais ddatganiad ysgrifenedig ynglŷn â chyfres o gynigion ar gyfer diwygio system etholiadol llywodraeth leol, ac mae hwn bellach wedi ei lansio'n ffurfiol ar gyfer ymgynghoriad. Mae'r cynigion yn cynnwys ymestyn yr hawl i bleidleisio, cofrestru pleidleiswyr, y broses etholiadol, yn ogystal â chynigion ynghylch pwy gaiff sefyll fel ymgeisydd a phwy gaiff weithredu fel swyddog canlyniadau. Diben diwygio'r system etholiadol yw ei gwneud yn haws i bobl bleidleisio ac i ymestyn yr hawl i bleidleisio. Mae'r cynigion yn cynnwys ymestyn yr hawl hwnnw i bobl 16 a 17 mlwydd oed ac i bawb sy'n byw, yn gweithio ac yn astudio yng Nghymru. Rhoddir ystyriaeth hefyd i’r posibiliadau o ran ei gwneud yn haws i bobl bleidleisio, fel cyflwyno pob pleidlais drwy’r post, pleidleisio electronig a phleidleisio mewn mannau ar wahân i orsafoedd pleidleisio, fel archfarchnadoedd, llyfrgelloedd, canolfannau hamdden a gorsafoedd bysiau a rheilffordd.

Mae'r papur ymgynghori hefyd yn cynnig y dylai cynghorau unigol gael dewis pa system bleidleisio sydd orau ganddyn nhw, naill ai y cyntaf i'r felin neu’r bleidlais sengl drosglwyddadwy. Gan ymateb i sylwadau eglur yn ystod ymgynghoriad y Papur Gwyn, rwyf nawr yn cynnig y byddai hyn yn gofyn am ddwy ran o dair o fwyafrif pleidlais aelodaeth y cyngor, yn unol â'r trothwy ar gyfer newid o'r fath i system etholiadol y Cynulliad Cenedlaethol ei hun.

Yn dilyn ymgynghori, Cadeirydd, byddaf yn ceisio gwneud newidiadau deddfwriaethol drwy Fil llywodraeth leol. Mae'n bwysig i mi bwysleisio y byddai unrhyw newidiadau yn berthnasol i etholiadau llywodraeth leol yn unig. Mae'r Cynulliad Cenedlaethol yn ystyried diwygiadau o ran ei etholiadau ei hun ar wahân i'r ymgynghoriad hwn, ac mae’r Llywydd ei hun yn arwain ar hynny.

Cadeirydd, mae’r drydedd elfen yn fy natganiad heddiw yn canolbwyntio ar ddiwygio ein prif gynghorau, gan gynnwys dull newydd o weithio rhanbarthol systematig a gorfodol i sicrhau eu bod yn gadarn, yn nhermau arian ac o ran y gwasanaethau maen nhw’n eu darparu. Rwy’n bwriadu bwrw ymlaen â chynigion a fyddai'n gweld gweithio rhanbarthol yn dod, dros amser, y dull arferol mewn sawl maes gwaith llywodraeth leol. Bydd hyn yn adeiladu ar y bargeinion twf a dinesig a bydd angen llunio cynlluniau datblygu economaidd, trafnidiaeth strategol a chynllunio strategol o ran yr ardaloedd hyn. Caiff y trefniadau hyn eu gweithredu o dan gyfarwyddyd pwyllgor llywodraethu ar y cyd ar gyfer yr ardal, a fydd yn cynnwys aelodau etholedig o'r awdurdodau lleol cyfansoddol. Bydd digon o hyblygrwydd yn caniatáu i ddinas-ranbarth bae Abertawe ac ardaloedd Tyfu Canolbarth Cymru weithredu drwy hunaniaethau gwahanol, ond gyda gofyniad ar iddyn nhw ddod at ei gilydd i ystyried cydlyniad eu cynlluniau ar draws rhanbarth y de-orllewin yn ei gyfanrwydd.

O ran gwasanaethau eraill, lle y pwyllgorau cydlywodraethu rhanbarthol fydd penderfynu ar weithio rhanbarthol gorfodol, megis ynglŷn â gwella addysg, ac i benderfynu hefyd ynglŷn â sut orau i gydweithio, o fewn fframwaith statudol. Bydd cyfle i awdurdodau weithio ar draws rhanbarthau, er enghraifft, wrth ddatblygu'r strategaeth economaidd ieithyddol ar gyfer y gorllewin, yn unol ag argymhellion adroddiad y grŵp gorchwyl a gorffen ar y Gymraeg a llywodraeth leol.

The Llywydd took the Chair.

Cadeirydd, fel y nodir yn y Papur Gwyn ar ddiwygio llywodraeth leol, mae angen i’r trefniadau partneriaeth ar gyfer Cyngor Bwrdeistref Sirol Pen-y-bont ar Ogwr yn enwedig fod yn eglur ac yn syml. Ynghyd â chyd-Aelodau gweinidogol, cynhaliwyd trafodaethau gyda'r cyngor a gyda byrddau iechyd lleol. O ganlyniad i hyn, ac er mwyn rhoi pwyslais penodol i drafodaethau dros yr haf, rydym ni’n cynnig y dylid addasu ffin Bwrdd Iechyd Lleol Cwm Taf i gynnwys ardal awdurdod lleol Pen-y-bont ar Ogwr. Gan weithio gyda'n partneriaid mewn llywodraeth leol a byrddau iechyd, bydd y Llywodraeth yn trafod y cynnig ac yn datblygu dogfen ymgynghori ffurfiol, a fydd yn destun datganiad pellach yn yr hydref.

Llywydd, bydd math newydd o berthynas rhwng Llywodraeth Cymru a llywodraeth leol yn asio ein cynigion diwygio at ei gilydd. Mae’n rhaid i’r berthynas hon fod yn seiliedig ar barch y naill at y llall, ac ar berthynas newydd rhwng awdurdodau lleol a'u dinasyddion, sy'n cydnabod bod pobl yn asedau gwerthfawr ac sy'n eu galluogi i ddylunio dyfodol eu gwasanaethau a'u cymunedau ar y cyd.

Fel y cyhoeddodd y Prif Weinidog yn y datganiad rhaglen ddeddfwriaethol ar 27 Mehefin, bydd Bil llywodraeth leol yn cael ei gyflwyno i'r Cynulliad yn ystod 2018 er mwyn gweithredu’r cynigion diwygio hyn a chyflwyno darpariaethau eraill i’w hategu. Er mwyn gwneud y mwyaf o'r cyfle i barhau â'r ddeialog a’r trafodaethau gyda llywodraeth leol a phartneriaid eraill, rwy’n bwriadu cyflwyno’r Bil tuag at ddiwedd ail flwyddyn y rhaglen ddeddfwriaethol.

Llywydd, local government reform is a joint effort, and the measures that I’ve outlined today will provide a range of tools and mechanisms for local government to build resilience and increase effectiveness by working together better and operating with more flexibility as individual authorities. I look forward now to hearing Members’ views.

Thank you to the Cabinet Secretary. I know we have met and we have had conversations on these proposals going forward, and I have to say that I’m certainly very supportive of a lot—. There’s a lot of ambition here, and, of course, with ambition and legislation and making it deliverable comes resource, and I fear that you will have resource implications, but I don’t think anyone could actually knock the vision that you seek to move forward with. Obviously, I’ll start off—. I’ll go through the threads, really.

The reform of town and community councils can’t come quick enough. This is a level of democracy that does cost our taxpayer and should be transparent and accountable, and should actually have deliverable outcomes. And, regrettably, on numerous occasions, I’ve received complaints and concerns from residents regarding the openness and transparency at that level, and I am aware that the members on the board, of course, are former AMs: Gwenda Thomas, Rhodri Glyn Thomas, and, of course, we have William Graham. So, I think those are three people who I have every confidence in, going forward.

Uncontested seats are a problem not just in town council seats but also in principal authorities. There were 92 local authority—principal authority—candidates who actually just went in without contest in the last local government elections, and I know that this was raised numerous times in Aberconwy, as to why people were turning up to vote and weren’t aware that no election was going forward, because somebody had just walked into a council seat. So, your main overall aim is about accessibility, allowing people a better opportunity to vote, but I think also, too, we do need to be mindful that people do need candidates that they are then able to vote for, so that’s something that maybe we can work on, going forward.

The consultation on the potential reform of the local government electoral system is interesting, and, again, it’s all about opening up and engaging, improving accessibility to increase voter turnout at local government elections. Who could argue with that?

I do endorse a number of the proposals outlined. We do need to increase flexibility to enable council employees to stand for election as councillors. I know of a situation—and I’ve raised this with the Cabinet Secretary—of somebody who did a four hour a week contract and was unable to actually go forward standing as a council candidate. Clearly, there would only be a conflict of interest once that person was elected, if elected, so we need to look at that.

We need to simplify postal voting. I’m sure other Members—even with Assembly elections or parliamentary, the postal voting system, probably across the UK, but I know in Wales, is very confusing for the elderly, when they have to put it in different envelopes, and, you know, their signatures and everything. I’ve witnessed so many spoilt ballot papers, when people think that they’ve voted correctly. So, I’d like to ask the Cabinet Secretary—you know, you do intend to put more meat on the bone where that’s concerned.

Proxy voting is another one. It’s a method of people being able to vote when they’re not actually present on that day. I know that your plans for electronic voting and having the single electoral register is a good idea, but nonetheless there is that mechanism currently there called proxy voting, and I know whenever I’ve suggested to people not about postal voting, about proxy voting, they have looked at me in some disbelief, not understanding what proxy voting means. I’m not sure the actual word ‘proxy’ is the best way to describe it. So, if you could look to simplifying that process, it’s another mechanism to get people over that line if they want to vote.

I note your proposal for authorities to choose between the electoral systems—first-past-the-post or single transferable vote. I just wonder whether there would be some confusion across the boundaries. Are you actually looking at doing this on a local authority basis, individual basis? Or is this going to be uniform across Wales?

Moving on to directly-elected mayors, which I’ve already made it clear that I’m quite in favour of, in terms of a local authority—not on the regional working basis—in England, it’s a 10 per cent requirement for the referendum. No, it’s not; it’s the other way around: 5 per cent in England, 10 per cent here in Wales. I think, again, if there’s a way perhaps that we could look at bringing that threshold down so that local authorities—or people, the community within local authority areas, can actually maybe go out and—. It’s a better figure to go for, isn’t it, 5 per cent?

I’ve raised this with you before—remuneration of councils across the border is on average about half that of Wales, with councillors representing more than twice the number of constituents. An example: England, an average of £6,893, and they have to represent 8,959. In Wales, they can be on £13,300 and their average is 3,300. So, we do need to actually look at providing value for our constituents and electorate, and there’s a balance there that needs addressing.

Now, reform of principal councils—certainly, I agree and welcome joint working on back-office functions. There’s much good practice, and I discovered some myself only last week. Five Somerset district councils share a central call centre for enquiries and payments. Now, if it can be done over the border, it can be done here. But, of course, because I’ve held this portfolio for quite some time, I’m aware of all the guidance and everything to do with the collaboration agenda, and that was a failed programme for this Welsh Government. So, I’d really be interested in knowing what methods—the stick, the carrot, or a bit of both—you’re going to use that will actually ensure that there is better working together. I do not see it feasible that we are going to still continue to have 22 chief executives, 22 heads of finance, 22 heads of social services. I welcome the integration of health and social care, and there is a model here that you’ve mentioned in your statement, and that should be rolled out, I think, across Wales.

You mentioned flexibility below the three main regional joint governance committees. The north Wales health board, for instance, has often been described as unwieldy and too large. We have a health board there now in special measures. So, if you’re looking to model local government on that basis, then there’s some more work to be done there. Cabinet Secretary, you know you have my support and that of my group for a lot of this, going forward. We will look for the finer detail, and we will scrutinise and challenge where we feel that it may become over-burdensome, confusing for the electorate, and more costly. Thank you.

Thank you to Janet Finch-Saunders, both for what she said this afternoon but also for her willingness to engage in regular dialogue about some of these proposals and for the constructive ideas that she’s already contributed to it. I hope she will see in some of the things we are proposing in relation to town and community councils a reflection of some of her own direct experience, and I particularly wanted to thank her for her help in securing the services of William Graham as part of the review team. I agree with her very much that uncontested seats are something we would want to see eliminated in our democracy, both at a principal council level, but it is a particular feature of town and community councils. And those who operate in that sphere, and who I think often do very good work, they are themselves very aware of the fact that it’s a vulnerability when we refer to it as a democratic tier, when so often there is so little democracy involved in the way that people end up as town and community councillors.

I thank Janet Finch-Saunders for what she said about the proposals on the electoral system. I think this is a very exciting time for us in Wales. These will be new powers that we will inherit. The consultation paper is a mixture of a small number of propositions where we say the Welsh Government is pretty committed to taking ideas forward, such as extending the franchise to 16- and 17-year-olds, and then a much wider range of ideas where we are interested to hear what people have to say. The speaker drew attention to the question we raise in the consultation about whether we draw the line in the right place between people who work for a council and are able to stand for a council. I don’t think there’s any doubt that, at one end of the spectrum, very senior staff are in politically-restricted posts; they should not be allowed to stand for election. But, at the moment, we prohibit, as Janet Finch-Saunders said, somebody working for a very small number of hours from standing for election. That prohibition falls disproportionately on women and we ask the question as to whether or not we could draw the line in a different place.

An all-Wales electronic register would mean that the need for proxy voting would be reduced, but it wouldn’t eliminate it, because, if people were on holiday in England or called away to work in England, for example, you’d still need proxy voting. We will look at the point that she makes about the potentially confusing terminology.

Our proposals on permissive PR in local government are exactly that; it would be a choice for local government themselves to make. The threshold for a referendum on elected mayors: we don’t intend to change the availability of a referendum in local areas where there is a call for an elected mayor, and, again, as part of the consultation, I’m very aware in that we will look at the threshold issue that the Member has highlighted. I probably don’t share her view entirely on the number of councillors we have in Wales. I think that the number is broadly the right one. The councillors that I see work very hard and have large numbers of voters to represent. The electoral reviews have started in Ceredigion, Conwy, Gwynedd, and Powys. We expect it, over the term, to result in a modest reduction in the number of councillors in Wales. The proposals for Conwy council, for example, propose a reduction of just over 10 per cent in the number of councillors that would be available for that local authority.

Finally, to respond to the points made about the reform of principal councils, I think the difference in the proposals that you see in front of the Assembly this afternoon is that they are both the product of hard work to try and craft a consensus with local authorities, but also a determination that, when we have an agreed way forward on regional working, on frameworks, on footprints and on functions, then we will make that mandatory. Once we’ve agreed, then we need the force of the legislation under that agreement so that everybody is clear that if you’ve got around the table and you’ve agreed to discharge a function, there is no escaping from that agreement.

I think that’s in the interest of local authorities. Too many local authorities have told me of examples where they have worked very hard and have put a lot of investment into a regional arrangement, only for one of the partners to walk away from the table at the last minute, and a lot of work to unravel very quickly. That can’t be the future for local authorities in Wales, Llywydd. Regional working is the way of the future—systematic, mandatory but agreed.

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary, for your willingness to have an ongoing dialogue on these issues and issues within your portfolio. The complexity of all of these levels of government created, as well as where accountability lies and where the scrutiny happens—that is what emerges for me, having listened to your statement today.

Specifically, I do have a great concern that the relationship between the citizen and the people making decisions is becoming meaningless and very distant. That has major implications for democracy, where people already feel disempowered in terms of decisions taken on issues that affect them on a daily basis. I’ve said this before, and I am still of the same view.

It’s also a cause of concern for me that you don’t intend to introduce the proportional STV system to all local authorities in Wales. In Scotland, the use of a proportional system is a usual part of democracy, and it does ensure that there is competition for all council seats and that all votes count. I am of the view that allowing individual councils to decide whether they want to introduce a proportional electoral system is going to cause confusion and will mean that it doesn’t happen consistently across Wales and, indeed, that it doesn’t happen at all. I agree that it’s important to give councils the freedom to decide on many issues, but this isn’t one of them.

Before I ask three specific questions, I will be a little more positive and declare Plaid Cymru’s full support for the reduction in the voting age for local elections so that 16 and 17-year-olds will be able to vote. This has been Plaid Cymru policy over a number of years because we believe that the voice and contribution of young people in the democratic process are crucially important.

I would also welcome that you would support the extension of the franchise so that everyone living, working and studying in Wales can vote. Everyone who calls Wales their home and wants to see Wales succeed—every one of those people should have the opportunity and freedom to participate in elections that impact on their lives.

In turning to my questions, I would like to first of all ask what implications the extension of the franchise in local elections would mean, then, in terms of Assembly elections. What’s the interrelationship between what you’re introducing here and the wider debate on Assembly elections? I was just seeking some clarity there.

On the element of regional working, I’m pleased to see mention of the ability for local authorities to collaborate to develop linguistic and economic strategies for the west of Wales, as we in Plaid Cymru have suggested in this Chamber, as well as the task and finish group on the Welsh language and local government, chaired by Rhodri Glyn Thomas. Following supportive statements from yourself and the First Minister recently on this, I would like to hear what your vision is. What do you think are the benefits of regional collaboration in the west of Wales?

Finally, it appears likely that the Government’s economic strategy will place a major emphasis on regional policy or regional working, although we haven’t seen that strategy as of yet, although it’s a full year since the election. What collaboration has taken place and is taking place between yourself and the Cabinet Secretary for Economy and Infrastructure in terms of this relationship between the economic strategy and local government reform? Thank you.

Thank you, Presiding Officer, and I thank Sian Gwenllian for the comments this afternoon. Thank you also for being so willing to talk to us over time in discussing ideas, and this afternoon saying where we can agree on some important things—extending the right to register and to vote to the people who are 16 and 17 years old, and also the right for people who live in Wales to be part of our democratic process. That’s a very important message for people who come to Wales and who live here and work here and study here. They are part of our communities here in Wales, and we want to extend the right to them to be part of that democratic process at a local level as well.

Could I say I share the concerns that Sian Gwenllian has about the complexity and accountability? We are trying, in what we’ve presented, to plan a way in which we can help people to understand the system we are going to create in the future, and also make sure that people are accountable for the decisions that they make.

Dyma pam yn rhannol, Llywydd, y mae gennym ni ofyniad yn y Papur Gwyn bod gan awdurdodau lleol strategaethau ymgysylltu statudol. Dyma pam yr ydym ni’n dweud y bydd yn rhaid i awdurdodau lleol ddarlledu eu trafodion. Rydym ni eisiau gwneud yn siŵr bod dinasyddion lleol yn gwybod beth sy'n digwydd yn ein hawdurdodau lleol. Dyma pam yr wyf i’n credu bod swyddogaeth cynghorwyr lleol, yn y ffordd y byddwn ni’n sefydlu’r system newydd, yn gwbl ganolog. Dyma pam yn rhannol nad oeddwn i’n cytuno â Janet Finch-Saunders yn ei barn y dylem ni gael gostyngiad sylweddol yn y nifer o gynghorwyr lleol. Os oes mwy o —.[Torri ar draws.] Mae'n ddrwg gen i, rwy’n gobeithio na wnes i gam-gynrychioli’r hyn a ddywedasoch chi. [Torri ar draws.]

No, there is no intervention on a statement now.

Let me put what I said in a different way, Llywydd. I think Janet would envisage a lower number of councillors than we envisage. And I didn’t agree with her on that, because I think the role of the local councillor will be pivotal in assisting citizens in the future to navigate their way through a system in which some decisions are made at a regional level. I don’t think this is significantly different to the way that systems work currently. A local councillor is elected to represent their ward, but when they come to make decisions at a council level, they have to take into account what is right for the whole of that area, not simply what is right for their own ward. They’re always having to balance the tension between representing the very local electorate and knowing what is right for the whole authority that they represent, just as people come to the Assembly here representing a constituency but then speak up from the point of view of their party as a whole. What we will do is to require that way of thinking to be exercised on a regional level. We will make it absolutely clear that decisions are made by elected members drawn from the constituent local authorities, and we’ve set out a menu of choices that local authorities themselves will be able to draw on to make sure that they are able to scrutinise the decisions, and to be held answerable for them at that local authority level.

Let me turn, if I could, to the questions that Sian Gwenllian asked towards the end of her contribution. As far as regional working in the west of Wales is concerned, I want to build on the suggestions set out in the report produced under the chairmanship of Rhodri Glyn Thomas. I’ve already had discussions with local authority leaders in that part of Wales of ways in which they can work across their borders and regionally to take advantage of the connection between the Welsh language and economic development opportunities in that part of Wales. I think that there are opportunities to share resources, to draw on the way in which some local authorities have been able to strengthen services that they provide for those people who would choose to access local authority services through the medium of Welsh, and to deploy those resources in a way that is to the advantage of the future economic development of that part of the country.

As far as working with other Cabinet colleagues is concerned, not only have I discussed these matter with the Cabinet Secretary for the economy in relation to the economy strategy, but I’ve talked to my colleague the education Secretary in relation to education improvement and additional learning needs. I talked to my colleague the Minister for social services in relation to regional working in the health and social services sphere. Indeed, there is almost no Cabinet colleague who does not have an interest in how regional working of the sort set out in these proposals maps onto the responsibilities that they discharge as well.

We will continue those discussions, look forward to bringing a Bill in front of the Assembly, and understand that parties across the Assembly will want to see the detail of our proposals and will want to consider them carefully when they are published.

Thanks, Minister, for your statement today. Local government reform brings with it an opportunity and I think reforms could work well as long as the main aim is to bring local government closer to the people it serves. So, the issue of localism, I think, is key.

Now, you’ve highlighted a bigger role for town and community councils. I think that is a promising path to go down in some cases. In rural and semi-rural areas, these councils can play a strong and relevant role, and you mentioned the way in which they have, in some cases, saved local libraries and other services by taking over their running. That kind of action is certainly to be recommended when local services are threatened. But what would be your recommended course of action when services are under threat in more urban areas that don’t have community councils? What would be the role, for instance, of voluntary groups, which could serve a very relevant role, but would there be issues there of democracy and a democratic mandate to run things? I’d be interested in your thoughts on that.

As you point out, there is a mixed bag of town and community councils across Wales. So, again, what happens when local services are under threat in an area where the local community council isn’t doing much? Given that so many services are threatened nowadays, should there be some kind of handbook of action from you, as a Minister, as to how local services can best be defended in these instances?

As to your proposed changes to the conduct of elections in Wales, I look forward to hearing your thoughts at the end of the consultation period. Clearly, you are committed to trying to bring about certain specific changes such as the voting age, whilst you are more open-minded on others. I think there is a lot to discuss on the changes to election rules and we will probably have a robust debate on these kinds of proposals later in the year. But I hope you do tread carefully as you consider pertinent issues like internet security.

I think most Members would agree that being an election returning officer should be a statutory duty of a council chief executive and should be part of his or her regular workload, without any additional payments involved. So, I tend to agree with you on that point and I hope you press on with that.

On the issue of council employees being able to stand as candidates, I believe people like dinner ladies and lollipop men and other people in similar roles should be allowed to stand in council elections, so a change to the rules here would be commendable, as Janet Finch-Saunders has brought to light, and as you’ve done very well in bringing in as part of your proposals. The question is: at what level of local government officer do you draw the line on eligibility? I wonder if you would give me your thoughts on where exactly you feel that line should be drawn.

On the issue of independent councillors, I think it is a fair point that, if they are party members, the public has a right to know. How do you intend to elicit this information and what will happen to candidates who fail to disclose party membership?

On the subject of AMs doubling up as councillors, I think this is a contentious point. As I’ve never been a councillor, I’m not really qualified to judge whether you can successfully do both. You yourself were once a councillor and are now an AM, but never simultaneously, as far as I know. But I know of at least one Member here who did both jobs for a few years, so I think it is not impossible to double up. The problem may be that the AM salary is certainly a full-time salary. So, perhaps, if an AM wants to remain as a councillor, there should be a prohibition on claiming the councillor salary so that if he or she wants to remain as a councillor, the council duties would be undertaken as unpaid duties. So, I wonder whether you think that might be an acceptable compromise in this instance. Thank you.

I thank the Member for those questions. Can I say that I think he made a series of important points about town and community councils? My assessment of the sector, having asked about it in all parts of Wales, is that, where town and community councils have a good relationship with their principal authority, where they have a level of resource and a level of ambition, they are doing more important public service work today than they probably ever have before in helping to defend local communities against the effects of austerity. The problem is that, too often and in too many parts, the relationship isn’t as good as it should be, the resource base of very small community councils isn’t sufficient to allow them to take on a wider range of duties and, probably most significant of all, the ambition is not always there to do so. So, the challenge that I have set for the review team is to try and identify the ingredients that are making for successful town and community councils and to be very positive about the good work they are doing but to then ask how we can generalise that into other parts of Wales, potentially including parts of Wales where town and community councils don’t currently exist. In the meantime, we are producing, with our town and community councils, with One Voice Wales, a handbook, a workbook to allow town and community councils who are willing to do more than they have in the past to learn the lessons of those who have done it successfully already and to be able to help them through that process.

As far as the conduct of elections is concerned, Gareth Bennett raised the very important issue of internet security. We asked the question in the consultation paper: are we yet at the stage where we could allow voting to take place on your phone or on your tablet or on your computer? We do many other things in many other parts of our lives—internet banking and so on—that require high levels of security, but I think it’s an important question. I want to rehearse it in the consultation exercise. Old-fashioned as our current system may be, one of its great strengths, Llywydd, is that it is trusted by people. You go, you put your cross on the ballot paper, you take the paper yourself, you put it into the ballot box—you can see how the system is working. I think we would want to think carefully about moving in directions where people’s trust in the integrity of the process could be more easily undermined, but we want to know what people in Wales think about it.

Gareth Bennett pointed to our proposals for making chief executives statutorily the returning officers in local elections and abolishing the current system of personal fees. We raised the question of where to draw the line in local authority employees. I don’t have a fixed position on that. I do think it’s an important question to rehearse. I think trade unions and others will have important views to contribute to us there.

I think it is right that candidates who are members of a political party should declare that as part of their candidacy. There is nothing to stop anybody standing as an independent, but I think that, if you do put yourself forward as an independent and you’ve been a member of a political party within the last 12 months, then voters are entitled to know that that is the case. They then take it into account with everything else that they take into account in deciding who to vote for.

We propose in our consultation that there shouldn’t be a dual mandate, that people should not be able to be Assembly Members and members of a local authority at the same time. There is the issue of pay, as Gareth Bennett said. Being an Assembly Member is paid as a full-time job, and we think it should be that, but there are conflicts of interest as well that are not simply to do with pay. We make very important decisions here that affect local authorities, and we think it’s an uncomfortable position to be both the provider and the recipient of those decisions, and our proposal is that we should not allow that to happen in the future.

Sometimes, as people argue over structures and powers, the reason for local government is often forgotten: to provide high-quality, cost-effective local services; to react to local need; to do all of the above with a democratic, local accountability.

On community and town councils, will the same powers be given to all community and town councils, irrespective of size, and what happens in those urban areas, such as Swansea East, that do not currently have community councils?

I again reiterate my support for votes at 16, something my friend Julie Morgan has argued for for as long as I can remember.

I am pleased to see supermajority voting for changes to local government voting systems to stop the voting system changing almost on an annual basis.

On people who can stand for election, why not allow those who are indirectly employed by a council to stand? We’ve had a situation earlier this year where somebody was disqualified— he worked for a body that was partly funded by the council he belonged to, along with eight other councils. Those indirectly employed, I think, should be allowed to stand.

What reasons does the Cabinet Secretary see for not bringing in electronic voting? Young people expect to use their phones for almost everything and to vote electronically, and they find it rather strange, going into a school hall, being given a blunt pencil and a piece of paper.

I welcome working across councils in transport, strategic land use and economic development. These, of course, are not new, are they? I remember—I’m sure the Cabinet Secretary does—the old county development plan. I was also chair of the west Wales transport group called SWWITCH. I was also a member of the west Wales economic forum. There was an awful lot of hard work being done between Pembroke and Swansea well before any talk of either local government reorganisation or any talk of the need for change in cross-party working. So, none of the above is novel. The question I’ve got is: why are the proposals for mid and south-west Wales rather than the Swansea bay city region? How does the Cabinet Secretary believe that people in Welshpool have anything in common with the people in Swansea in terms of either transport, economic development or land use?

Thank you to Mike Hedges for those remarks. Will we give the same powers to all town and community councils? Not as they currently stand, because they are so very variable. We propose a general power of competence for some town and community councils, but there will be thresholds that they would have to pass. We’ll see what the report of the review group produces. If they are able to propose a more uniform pattern, both of powers and of geography, so that town and community councils are available everywhere, then the case for treating them all the same will be strengthened.

I believe, Llywydd, that there will be a majority on the floor of this Assembly for extending the franchise to 16 and 17-year-olds, and I’m grateful for Mike Hedges’s support for that.

He adds another category to people who are currently prevented from standing for election to local authorities, and I think probably adds another component to our question as to whether or not we are currently over-restrictive in the way that we interpret that rule.

What is the case against remote voting? Well, I think people who are not yet persuaded of it sometimes say that the act of voting is a very serious act and that reducing it to being able to click a button on your phone may undermine the seriousness of the contribution that taking part in a democracy ought to be. Some people—I suppose I’m old-fashioned enough that I would agree with this—like the collective act of walking to a polling station and like to see other people doing the same thing. I like queueing up in a line with other people doing the same thing. For me, it brings our collective sense of democracy alive, but that’s because I’ve been doing it for such a very long time. Maybe the more significant objection is the security objection. Are we yet sure that the systems are sufficiently certain that people would believe that nobody could interfere with their democratic vote—you couldn’t be hacked into, you couldn’t find it distorted in a way that you’d be able to find out?

He’s absolutely right that regional working is not new. What our proposals do is to make regional working systematic and mandatory.

Why mid and west Wales? We’ve taken the WLGA’s own region; that’s how the WLGA organises itself. But, as I said in my statement, Llywydd, we will have sufficient flexibility within that regional footprint for the Swansea city region four councils to be able to work together, and the Growing Mid Wales councils—Ceredigion and Powys—to continue to work together in a distinctive way, but where they will then have to plan together, so that there are no artificial boundaries and there’s no sense that Ceredigion and Powys aren’t able, for example, to gain access to some of the debates and some of the possibilities that that wider regional footprint would bring.

I’d like to welcome the statement. There were two elements I wanted to touch on. One: in terms of the basket of options you’re putting to consultation about reform, I’m disappointed that compulsory voting is not one of the options that the Welsh Government are asking for opinions on. I think requiring people to take part as part of their wider civic duties—the ability to vote is an important one. I realise that’s a contestable view, but I think it would be useful to start a debate on that.

Secondly, I just wanted to touch on the broader transformation that the Minister proposes in terms of the boundaries. Much of the emphasis is on the physical structures, but I just wonder how much thought is going on in terms of the digital transformation that’s going to be underpinning a lot of this. The spread of big data and artificial intelligence and automation is all around us. I’m conscious that there are no end of private companies who are approaching local authorities with off-the-shelf solutions to automate many of their functions to free up resource to put into front-line services, and I think it would be better if we did this in a thought-through, planned way across Wales, rather than individual local authorities doing it in an ad hoc way. It needn’t be a threat, but it will be a change, and a change that we can’t avoid. So, I just wonder if he could say a little bit more about the role of digital in the broader transformation project he had in mind.

One of my ambitions for the consultation exercise is that we end it with a wider range of possibilities and more ideas for how we could reform the way we conduct elections in Wales than we started with. Those people who advocate compulsory participation in our democracy, I hope, will take this opportunity to make those views known and to generate the sort of debate that Lee Waters has suggested.

As for digital transformation, one of the reasons why I think regional working—and particularly in this context, sharing back-office services—is so important is that it will allow local authorities to build their own capacity to move in this direction without having to rely on buying in services and off-the-shelf solutions, as he said, from elsewhere.

Llywydd, I’ve said several times: I’ve generally been very encouraged by my interaction with local authorities and their willingness to be part of creating their own future. I was mildly disappointed by their response to the consultation exercise in relation to back-office services. I think there’s a greater reluctance than there ought to be to think of ways in which they can share across boundaries some of those services—not a sufficient grasp of digital transformational possibilities for the future. And I’ve said to local authorities and I’ll repeat it here this afternoon: our White Paper and the legislation we will bring forward signal that we are on a journey to greater shared services in Wales, and it’s a journey that all local authorities will need to be part of.

Some observations, really. I think there’s an issue with postal voting, especially for disabled people and elderly people whose signature doesn’t always correspond and they’ve found that their votes have been discounted in recent elections. I think if we’re all honest here, as well, then we all know that there is also an issue with postal voting and the integrity of the process. I have concerns of going down the road of postal voting more, because I actually think that postal voting should be restricted. There should be a reason why you have a postal vote, because the process is abused, and we all know this.

We do need to encourage people to vote, and I think the idea of supermarkets and other places like that is a very, very good idea. Again, back to the integrity of the process, there was an example in 2016 in the Assembly election in the Cardiff West constituency where somebody went to vote at 08:30, and they’d been told they had already voted. The individual gave the person a description of the person who had been there at 07:30 and voted in his name. Now, I think there’s certainly an argument for, maybe, identification when voting, because the process at the minute is far too easy to abuse, I would say, to use the same phrase again.

I’d like to see local referenda given some teeth. Again, we had a local referendum where I live, where 99.9 per cent of people voted in a certain way, and they just were not listened to, and thousands of people voted, as well.

I’ve got to touch on the dual mandate. I assume it applies to the House of Lords as well. Maybe you can clarify that. [Interruption.] I certainly would not, but there are some colleagues here who have a dual mandate there. More than anything else, it’s a matter of democratic principle. I was elected as a councillor, and recently re-elected. Everybody knew I was an Assembly Member. What gives you the right as an individual, as a Minister, to say to people they can’t vote for me or anybody else to be their councillor? In terms of the allowances, yes, I’m happily donating my allowances, 50 per cent to the community and 50 per cent to Plaid Cymru. But the issue is one of democracy. Who are you, Minister, or Cabinet Secretary, to tell people they haven’t got the right to vote for people? It’s not right.

I suppose there was a declaration of interests of sorts there, Llywydd, and of course it isn’t for me to tell anybody anything. It would be for this National Assembly to decide, and if we do decide, that will be because this is the democratic forum where we make those decisions. That will be the basis of any decisions that flow from this consultation exercise.

I don’t have any powers over the House of Lords, but where we do have new powers over local government, I am clear in my own mind that people who have the privilege of sitting as Assembly Members ought to be able to devote the whole of their time and their energy to that job, and they ought not to find themselves in the position of voting on things that happen here that have a direct impact on other responsibilities that they discharge elsewhere.

I recognise the point about the integrity of the system. It’s partly why, when I answered my question from Mike Hedges on electronic voting, that I said that that is one of the things that we will need to think about. There is a tension between integrity on the one hand and simplicity on the other. I would like to make postal voting easier for those who choose to vote in that way. I’m slightly intrigued as to why the Member would like to make postal voting harder for people. Who is he, I might have said, to decide on the way in which people would choose to exercise their vote? So, I think we should make postal voting available to people. I think we should try and make it simpler in the way that Janet Finch-Saunders described, but I think we have to be careful on integrity, too.

I’m quite opposed to ID cards or other forms of identification at polling stations. We know that if we go down that route it will have a disproportionate effect on certain communities and certain parts of the electorate, exaggerating the current way in which some people find themselves disenfranchised. Where there are abuses, I think our system is robust enough to capture them. We need to be alert to that, but in the tension between wanting to make sure that voting is as accessible and as available as possible, and the integrity of the system, I think we ought to be prepared to be more concerned about making sure that nobody loses their chance to vote, while remaining vigilant to ensure that the system’s trustworthiness remains intact.

Llywydd, Neil McEvoy gives half his salary to Plaid Cymru—I knew there was a reason why they kept him in the group. Well done.

With regard to the White Paper, section 2.56, which you’ve already touched upon, Cabinet Secretary, in response to Sian Gwenllian, identifies three arrangements for scrutiny: one is to stick as you are, two is to establish a standing regional committee, or three, to set up task and finish groups. Scrutiny has come a long way in the last 10 years, as I know from my own experience in 10 years in local government. But also, reading Wales Audit Office annual improvement reports and special reports on scrutiny, you can see that things have improved. There’s a lesson to be learned from the landscape of scrutiny that exists now, compared to what it was over the past 25 years of local authorities as they are. What dialogue will the Cabinet Secretary have with the Wales Audit Office, who have played a creditable role in some of this? Will the Wales Audit Office advise on governance arrangements? And, particularly, how can you ensure that scrutiny and the standards that have been reached so far are maintained and will continue to be improved upon, given the freedom the councils will have to establish new arrangements for scrutiny?

I thank the Member for that. I do think it is right to allow local authorities the flexibility to decide on the way in which scrutiny works best in their own circumstances, and to design scrutiny arrangements for regional arrangements that fit in with the way they discharge other parts of their responsibilities. I agree with what Hefin David said about the fact that scrutiny has improved in recent times. There was a report published recently—an independent report—that looked across England, Wales and Scotland, and Wales was the only part of Britain where those involved in scrutiny reported that they believed that the system had improved, and that they were now better at it than they had been in the past. Part of that is a result of the advice and investment from the WAO. We will continue to work with them to take their advice. I said in my opening statement, Llywydd, that I wanted to give the maximum opportunity before introducing the Bill to work with local authorities themselves and partners, such as the WAO, on some of the detail of the Bill, and scrutiny will certainly be part of that ongoing dialogue.

And, finally, David Rees.

Diolch, Llywydd. Can I thank the Cabinet Secretary for his statement this afternoon? Obviously, I support the comments of my colleagues as far as electoral reform is concerned. And, by the way, electronic voting: you might want to look at what goes on in Estonia, which will tell you about that.

But hidden away in your statement, actually, was a very important aspect for me, and that is the possible change of boundaries for all local health boards, particularly in relation to Bridgend County Borough Council. Now, that might affect Bridgend County Borough Council, but it also affects many of my constituents because the river Afan is an artificial boundary used by ambulance services: those to the east go to Princess of Wales; those to the west go to Morriston. And, therefore, many of my constituents use the services at Princess of Wales and within that area. Now, barriers should not be presented by boundaries; I accept that. But many of my residents will want to be reassured that the services they currently have will not be impacted upon, and that they will continue to receive the same type of service. So, in your consultation, which you intend to carry out, can you present the case as to how those services will be maintained, so constituents within Port Talbot and Aberafan will not be affected by any change?

I thank David Rees for that very important point. I said in my statement that we will be working with Bridgend and both the health boards that will be involved in this—that’s ABMU and Cwm Taf—on a proposal that we can then consult on later in the year. We will make sure that the points that David Rees has raised this afternoon are taken into account in developing that proposition. The Princess of Wales hospital is not moving; it will be where it is today, but access to it is very important for people who live beyond Bridgend itself, and we will make sure that their interests are properly represented in the proposal that we will develop for consultation.

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary.