The next item on our agenda this afternoon is the debate on the Petitions Committee report on disabled people's access to public transport. I call on the Chair of the committee to move the motion—David Rowlands. 

Motion NDM6643 David J. Rowlands

To propose that the National Assembly for Wales:

Notes the report of the Petitions Committee on the petition: Ensure Disabled People can Access Public Transport as and When They Need It (P-05-710), which was laid in the Table Office on 10 October 2017.

Motion moved.

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. I am delighted to open this debate on the Petitions Committee’s report on disabled people’s access to public transport services in Wales. Can I acknowledge at the outset that the Welsh Government's response to the report and its recommendations has been extremely positive?

The petition that led to this report was submitted by young people from Whizz-Kidz, an organisation that supports young people with disabilities, and I want to start by paying tribute to everyone who was involved for their commitment to campaigning for improvements to public transport services in Wales. The young people the committee met with, and those who provided their views to us in a video, helped us to better understand the challenges that disabled people face every time they try to use public transport to go about their daily lives. I thank the petitioners for bringing these issues into focus for us, and warmly congratulate them on the way they have pushed their petition forward.

The petition calls for disabled people to have the same rights to access public transport as anyone else in Wales. One of the young people we spoke to described his aspirations in the following way: 'I’m 13 now, I would like to be like everyone else, go around without telling someone 20 times, so I can get to where I’m going and come back with no problems.'

In their evidence to us, the petitioners outlined their experiences with a range of public transport and raised a large number of issues. These included difficulties travelling at short notice or when it is not possible to request assistance in advance, and poor infrastructure, which can prevent people from travelling at all. There was also a lack of support from some staff, which can make people feel vulnerable or burdensome. The committee heard that these problems can make it more difficult for people to access education, employment and social opportunities. This can have a major impact on people’s independence, confidence and self-esteem. A number of petitioners mentioned that they wanted access to public transport on demand, not having to book some time in advance. They wanted to turn up and go, the same as their able-bodied friends.

The petitioners have described their experiences of using trains, buses and taxis. As a result, we held evidence sessions with organisations involved in providing these modes of public transport. We would like to thank everyone involved for the evidence they provided. Full details of this work is naturally contained in our report. Having heard this evidence, we made 12 recommendations. Time will not allow me to speak about all of these today. However, suffice to say, we concluded that improvements were required across all modes of public transport, and I wish to highlight some of our key recommendations.

In relation to rail services, we believe that improvements need to be made to stations, trains and the support provided by staff. In our report, we recognise that elements of this are not devolved or are currently in the process of being devolved. Nevertheless, there is clearly a lot that the Welsh Government can do, and I particularly want to highlight the opportunity the Welsh Government currently has through the process to award the next Wales and borders rail franchise. The potential exists to ensure that the next franchise agreement contains requirements for significant improvements to be made to the accessibility of rail services, which would benefit people across Wales. The Petitions Committee has also proposed that accessibility should be included as a performance measure in the next franchise, and I am pleased that the Cabinet Secretary has accepted our recommendations on this.

In the evidence we received from Arriva Trains Wales and Great Western Railway, we heard about the positive policies that are already in place. These included the ability for disabled passengers to request alternative transport to another station when the closest one is not accessible, or when, for example, lifts are out of order. However, our conversations with the petitioners, who are all frequent users of public transport—and indeed many rely solely on public transport—convinced us of the need to better promote the assistance already available.

In many ways, the issues the petitioners raised around bus services were similar. Again, we heard about good policies but had concerns that these did not seem to be reflected in the real world experience of disabled passengers. Some of the problems identified by the petitioners included the reluctance of some drivers to deploy ramps or to lower buses to kerb height, lack of time or patience allowed for passengers to get on and off safely, and drivers not stopping in suitable locations—for example where there are raised kerbs. The committee appreciates that this last issue is sometimes beyond the control of bus drivers due to other vehicles blocking access to bus stops. We also recognise that drivers face a range of pressures, not least of which is to meet timetables. These issues have recently been considered in depth by the Economy, Infrastructure and Skills Committee, and they clearly represent significant barriers for disabled passengers.

We also heard some good examples of training practices carried out, including by Cardiff Bus and FirstGroup. However, we were concerned that not all companies apply the same standards through driver training, and we concluded that the Welsh Government should consider making a specific disability awareness module a mandatory element of the certificate of professional competence that drivers working in Wales must achieve. We are pleased that the Welsh Government has accepted this recommendation and others we made relating to bus services.

Finally, we considered taxi services. Up to now, the Assembly has possessed limited powers over the operation of taxi and private hire vehicle services. However, the Wales Act 2017 is devolving more of these powers. We were encouraged to hear about plans the Welsh Government has to update the licensing and registration regime. In particular, we believe that the Welsh Government should press ahead with the development of common national standards for all taxis and private hire vehicles. All the witnesses we heard from shared the view that the current regime is outdated and that we should strive to achieve greater consistency across services.

The committee’s intention in making this recommendation was to respond to a number of problems highlighted by Whizz-Kidz. It was clear that disabled people’s experiences of taxi services vary significantly across Wales, and between different companies and drivers. Some of the experiences that were related to us were clearly way below the standard that disabled people should be entitled to expect. These included drivers not strapping wheelchairs into vehicles, drivers starting the meter running whilst helping passengers to board taxis or to stow mobility aids, and companies refusing to accept bookings from passengers they know are disabled. We, and all the witnesses we heard from, were clear that such behaviour is unacceptable and may in some cases breach existing law. Nevertheless, we also concluded that greater clarity over the standards of service that passengers expect would be beneficial to disabled passengers and, in fact, everybody who uses taxis.

In summary, I hope that the committee’s work on this petition has contributed to identifying both why and how real improvements to the way disabled people experience public transport could be achieved in Wales. It is right to say that the Assembly or the Welsh Government cannot, currently, do all it might want to do to achieve a fully accessible public transport system. However, there is much that can be done to improve the real-world experience for people with disabilities. Much of this will require good partnership working with councils, operators and disabled people. It will also require good leadership from the Welsh Government. Our evidence session with the Cabinet Secretary for Economy and Transport, and the Welsh Government’s response to our recommendations, has given us encouragement about the commitment that exists to make the required improvements. 

I very much welcome the opportunity to debate the Petitions Committee report on ensuring access to public transport for disabled people. This was a classic example of what organisations expect to happen when you talk to people at the top of the organisation and what actually happens when disabled people try and access transport. And I think David Rowlands gave some examples of what we were told about how you could get a taxi to the next station—when I mentioned that to some disabled people, they looked at me in bewilderment.

I was Chair of the Petitions Committee when Whizz-Kidz gave their evidence. Can I, as I did at the committee—but I'd like to do it now, on the record here—thank Whizz-Kidz and congratulate them for coming along to give evidence to the committee? It's not an easy thing to give evidence to a committee, and I know how nervous a lot of older adults from organisations get when they have to come and talk to committees. These were a group of young people, but they had their beliefs that they needed to get their point over, and they certainly did.

Whizz-Kidz presented problems around access to train, bus and taxi services to the committee. These problems included: the inability to travel at short notice; a lack of staff training across all transport modes, which results in disabled people being made to feel like a burden or being unable to travel at all; a lack of support on trains and issues with the accessibility of trains and stations, including when lifts are not working. Whizz-Kidz also highlighted that accessibility issues can impact on a young people's ability to look for work and socialise, as travelling can be too much of a hassle—it's too much of a problem, it's too difficult. These issues can also impact on young disabled people's confidence, leaving them feeling isolated, and meaning that they don't feel equal to their peers who do not use wheelchairs.

Whizz-Kids provided the committee with video evidence, which included Josh's story, which highlighted many of the barriers facing young disabled people when travelling by train in south Wales. This was on the Petitions Committee site; I think it probably still is, if it isn't, can I ask, Deputy Presiding Officer, if we can make it available from here, so that people can access it? Because it really does tell the story from the position of a young man trying to access trains.

Concern was also expressed regarding the ability of people with hearing and sight loss to use public transport safely. For people with sight loss, a simple thing that could help them is the driver of a bus telling them when they get to the place they want to get off. That's a very simple thing, it doesn't need legislation, it's just good practice that should exist with bus companies. A lot of these things here that we're asking for and we need are not legislation, but good practice.

The train and bus operators that gave evidence to the committee outlined the varying levels of disability awareness training provided to staff. There is currently no mandatory requirement for bus operators to require drivers to complete disability awareness training. However, First Cymru said that all bus companies were required to provide disability awareness training from 1 March as part of the driver certificate of professional competence. But, training is only of benefit if it is acted upon. It is necessary for bus companies to ensure that drivers carry out what they've been trained to do. It's pointless telling them during a training session of three hours that they've got to do things if the next day they ignore it. I attended a dementia training session with First Cymru a few years ago. The training was very good, but it needs to be acted upon, and in First Cymru's case in Swansea, it has been.

The accessibility of trains and stations was also examined by the committee. The train operators stated that whilst new trains are accessible, older trains aren't. Concern was also raised around the availability and accessibility of taxis and private hire vehicles, especially at certain times of the day. The Licensed Private Hire Car Association said that, as most drivers are self-employed, taxi operators and licensing authorities cannot demand that drivers of certain vehicle types are available at certain times of day. But I think that there are ways of ensuring we get enough vehicles that can take people with guide dogs or take people in wheelchairs so that there will always be one available.

To me, the clear recommendation is: introduce disability awareness training for customer-facing train and station staff under the new Wales and borders franchise, bus drivers as part of the voluntary Welsh bus quality standard, and taxi and PHV drivers. [Inaudible.]—anyone who discriminates against disabled people out of prejudice, but we need training. We need to make sure our training is implemented. With no lack of will with the leaders of the organisations, what we need is an improvement on the implementation at operational level to ensure that what organisations think is happening, what we want to happen and what disabled people need to happen actually happens when somebody tries to access a vehicle. Thank you.

Thank you very much, Deputy Presiding Officer. I'm pleased to be able to take part in this debate, which stems from the report on this petition. I wasn't a member of the committee when this petition was being considered, but I do know, from experience of discussing with constituents and with different bodies, the problems that do face disabled people as they try to use public transport.

As it happens, I'm meeting tomorrow with a crew from Citizens Advice and the Taran disability forum in my constituency to discuss public transport and accessibility to public transport with them. I will be pleased to share with them the responses and the comments that have been made in the Assembly today, and the response from the Cabinet Secretary as well. The reason that they have contacted me is, as part of the project from Citizens Advice, to help specific groups to be able to have their say on issues that affect them. Transport is one of those things that genuinely does affect people with disabilities.

I'm very pleased that that's what Whizz-Kidz have done: they've had their say by bringing the petition to the Assembly's attention. I'd like to thank those young people from Whizz-Kidz, not only for presenting the petition itself but also for the way in which they, as we heard from Mike Hedges, responded to the challenge of giving evidence face to face in the committee itself. As I said, I wasn't part of the inquiry, but the video is there for you to be able to watch, and, certainly, the young people need to be congratulated for the way in which they can make their point in such a eloquent way.

They mention their experiences with taxis, buses and trains, and that they can't travel at short notice and they have to give 48 hours notice to have the train ramp, for example, and that they feel under pressure to get off public transport because they're aware of the bus wanting to leave and that drivers aren't always aware of how to put a wheelchair on the vehicle. There are multiple problems.

Those problems, taken together, make these people feel like they're a burden and that they are not equal with their peers who don't have wheelchairs and who don't have to face these problems while travelling. It does affect their confidence, and it can have an effect on their ability or their willingness to look for work, even, or to socialise. There is a risk, therefore, that they can feel that they're being isolated. That ties in with the work that we've been doing in the health committee as we look at loneliness and isolation. The evidence that we had as part of our inquiry there suggested that isolation and loneliness could have a significant impact on the mental and physical health of individuals. The British Red Cross says this:

‘A lack of social connections can be linked to cardiovascular health risks and increased death rates, blood pressure, signs of ageing, symptoms of depression and risk of dementia. It could be as damaging to health as smoking and as strong a risk as obesity.’

So, we're talking about something here that can have a very detrimental impact.

Even though we have focused in that inquiry on older people, disabled people and young people were recognised as two other groups who are vulnerable in terms of isolation and loneliness, and we heard that transport can be a factor in that. We had evidence that the barrier of having to plan journeys beforehand prevents travellers from making their journeys, and means that travelling at short notice is almost impossible. Of course, young disabled people, like their peers, want to travel with their friends, and they want the opportunity to travel without having to plan in detail days beforehand. This doesn’t fit the lives of young people, very often, and they want to feel that they can be confident that they can travel without feeling that they’re a nuisance to other people.

I’m very pleased, therefore, that the Welsh Government has accepted all of the recommendations by the committee, including giving staff the training to help them to create a supportive, inclusive and accessible environment, and that they will work with groups that represent disabled people to develop that very important training. So, the input of groups such as Whizz-Kidz and Taran—who I’ll meet tomorrow—I’m sure will be of great help to the Government with that work.

Thank you. Janet Finch-Saunders.

Thank you. I'm thrilled to be able to contribute to this debate. I'm actually enjoying my time on the Petitions Committee, because I've been surprised, really, just how many people do take that Petitions Committee seriously and actually feel that they can engage with the democratic process here. But I have to say, one of the best evidence sessions of any committees that I've been on in the two terms that I've been an Assembly Member was certainly this one, because it was a real eye-opener, and it is was a delight to meet so many impassioned and inspirational young activists from Whizz-Kidz, and not only to hear their stories, but, actually, with the video that they provided, and the engagement that we had with them, the conversations we had informally and then formally, through the evidence that they submitted to committee—it was fantastic.

Now, this petition seeks to ensure that disabled people are able to access public transport, and for me, that means all methods of public transport, when required and without the need to plan assistance 24 hours or even more in advance. I think it's safe to say that we can all agree that, in this day and age, such an ambition shouldn't just be perhaps achievable, it should be a given.

I note the acceptance of the Welsh Government of all the recommendations we have set out in this report, but I would further like to press the Cabinet Secretary for a little more clarification and detail on a number of points. Would you outline how the Welsh Government might work to examine the feasibility of supporting the use of an orange wallet-style assistance scheme in taxis and private hire vehicles in Wales, in addition to looking at this for bus services? In fact, I think we should have some kind—without putting any discrimination on or labelling people, I do think that, if there is a belief in an orange wallet-style assistance scheme in taxis, private hire vehicles, buses and trains, then we should be looking at that.

How will you work with interest groups and operators to develop training for customer-facing staff under the new Wales and borders franchise to ensure that disabled people will be able to just turn up and go on railway services in Wales in the future? What does the Cabinet Secretary estimate the cost will be for this development and the undertaking of accessibility awareness training for bus drivers across Wales, as noted in the report, and his acceptance? How much of this is intended to be provided by the Welsh Government and how much by the bus services support grant?

Finally, the importance of audio and visual announcement systems on public transport was stressed by practically everybody in our evidence sessions, and I have to tell you, whilst this is to do with a petition now for disabled access, I find it difficult, especially at nights when the trains are dark and things. Sometimes the announcements aren't easy, so if I struggle, then it should be an absolute given that people can actually hear and see exactly where they are, and when they need to depart the train, so that, again, they can be prepared, and so that there's no risk of accident. What did worry me in a lot of the evidence we took was not so much how inconvenient it was to access public transport, but that they felt that it was dangerous on occasion, and that they felt a nuisance. They felt unsafe as well at times, and I think that's a sad indictment, really, when you think how we are able to get around so easily. Bus service operators assured us during evidence that they ensure that they will acquire into their new vehicles audio and visible announcement systems. But I really want you to work with the industry, Cabinet Secretary, to ensure that this becomes a reality.

You mentioned utilising the support and the financial resource that we have, and I wonder what commitment you are able to make today. Accessibility to public transport for all must be a right, not a privilege, and is essential to working towards a more prosperous and greener Wales.

I welcome and I applaud the tenacity and determination of the young petitioners in bringing this issue to the fore of the agenda here in the National Assembly for Wales. I hope that easy use of public transport will be universal here by the end of this Assembly term. Well done to everybody who presented and brought their evidence to us from Whizz-Kidz. Thank you.

The petition submitted to the Petitions Committee by Whizz-Kidz rightly calls for disabled people to get the right to access full public transport when required—a call I first heard some 15 years ago on the Equality of Opportunity Committee, something we've all sequentially signed up to, and yet, we are we are.

In his response to the Petitions Committee report, the Cabinet Secretary for Economy and Transport said he looks forward

'to working with the public transport sector, our local authorities and most importantly, disabled and older people to renew our efforts to transform our public transport into an inclusive and accessible network'.

And, clearly, amen to that. However, whilst accepting the Petitions Committee's recommendations, much of his response then amounts to 'steady as we go'.

On recommendation 1, he accepts that, but then goes on to say that 

'The Welsh Government will continue to encourage public transport operators to adopt the “orange wallet” scheme' for bus and rail users across Wales. So, it's really to continue doing what we're doing. That recommendation also included calls for him to

'examine the feasibility of supporting its use in taxis and private hire vehicles.'

There's no reference to that whatsoever in his acceptance of the recommendation that he has then failed to address. And this is particularly critical, given that last October, Disability Wales's findings, reported by BBC Wales, was that some taxi services in Wales were refusing to pick up passengers who use wheelchairs or assistance dogs, leaving them stranded and humiliated. Disability Wales then called on the Welsh Government to strengthen the laws against discriminating against disabled people.

He accepts recommendation 3, which is calling on work with train operating companies to

'raise awareness of support available to disabled passengers'.

Again, his response amounts to:

'We will continue to work with the ORR to ensure passenger support is improved.'

Where is the big change required? He accepts recommendation 6 on the Wales and borders rail franchise, rightly saying that a

'Lack of appropriate training of front line staff in the transport sector is

often cited by equality groups as a barrier to accessing the public transport network in Wales.'

And he says:

'We will be working with interest groups and operators to develop training'.

But this avoids the key issue of who will then deliver that training.

Recommendation 11 says:

'The common national standards to be developed by the Welsh Government should include a requirement for all drivers in Wales to complete general disability awareness training'.

In accepting that, he says:

'It is expected that local licensing authorities will ensure that all drivers operating in their areas will undertake training issued by the Welsh Government.' 

As I said on Good Morning Wales last Saturday morning, for those of you who are awake early, in adopting the social model of disability, in removing the barriers to access and inclusion for all, it's no good sending people on training courses with external consultants or Government training courses, or training courses provided by your line manager. If people are going to really develop disability awareness, they must get that training from the experts, and the only experts in this area are disabled people themselves. 

The National Deaf Children's Society have said:

'We believe that disability awareness training of transport staff in all sectors is imperative and that such training should include basic deaf awareness.'

On a personal level, of course, I would support that, but that must involve people with hearing loss themselves. After a constituent and friend who actually lives in the Cabinet Secretary's own constituency faced problems on a Virgin Trains trip—a constituent and friend who is on the autism spectrum—I took up his case, and the positive outcome from this is that I'm taking him next month to Virgin Trains's talent academy at Crewe station for him to provide an autism awareness training session to their staff. That is the way we need to be going forward.

As Guide Dogs, the charity, say, the UK Government

'have agreed to make all buses accessible to people with sight loss and hearing loss'.

They do credit the Welsh Government for having been the first Government to require operators to install audiovisual next-stop announcements, but they then have asked me to ask you if there are any plans to consult with the UK Government to introduce common regulations and guidance across the two nations, because a lot of bus operators have roots that operate across England and Wales, and, of course, to fail to do so would create more barriers for people with sight loss.

We're running out of time. We've had legislation after legislation, good, well-meaning legislation that's supposed to be about designing and delivering services with people rather than for and to them, and yet we hear horror stories like wheelchair users still being denied access to the coastal path in Flintshire and the deaf community in Conwy having to go to the ombudsman after the council decommissioned their British Sign Language services after the social services and well-being Act; after the well-being of future generations Act; and despite the Equality Act 2010. Come on, we need a big step change. Fifteen years, for me, here, waiting for the big step change is too long to wait and it's decades too long for people with impairments across Wales.

Can I now call the Cabinet Secretary for Economy and Transport? Ken Skates.

Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. I'd, first of all, like to thank the Chair and the members of the Petitions Committee for their report, and on behalf of the Welsh Government, I am delighted to accept all 12 recommendations put forward by the committee in today's debate. The way that the debate has been conducted reflects the way that the committee behaved during the course of its inquiry, and I, again, would like to place on record my congratulations to the committee for the excellent work that has been undertaken.

As I said in my written response to the report and the committee's recommendations, the petition that was submitted by Whizz-Kids, seeking action to ensure that disabled people can access public transport when they need it, I think, brought into sharp focus the barriers faced by disabled people when using the public transport network across Wales, and, in particular, the video evidence submitted to the committee in support of the petition was a powerful illustration of the difficulties that disabled people encounter when accessing services that pretty much all of us in this Chamber take for granted.

I'd like to commend Whizz-Kids for the work that they and the Petitions Committee have done to highlight some of those issues. I share the frustration expressed by disabled people and people with restricted mobility when trying to use our public transport system. I did find it quite harrowing at times, learning about the daily challenges that are faced by people who just simply want to be better connected to other people, to other places, to services and to work.

Deputy Presiding Officer, it's my belief that too many train stations in Wales remain inaccessible and that too much of the rolling stock on our network is simply not up to the standard that we should accept in 2018. But, in delivering the Welsh rail services for the future, Transport for Wales will be working with Network Rail and the next train operator to improve access to rail for all people. Change, of course, won't happen overnight, but it must happen.

I welcome the committee's support for our proposals to introduce statutory guidance in relation to the quality of local bus services and for the delivery of local bus infrastructure. We have made some progress in relation to better bus services by using the funding that we provide through our bus services support grant to improve the quality of local bus services as set out in our voluntary Welsh bus quality standards.

Bus operators are installing audiovisual next-stop announcement systems to their buses, and I congratulate Cardiff Bus, Newport Transport and Arriva Bus north Wales, who have all made excellent progress over the last four years in this regard. I'd also welcome the decision by Stagecoach to invest in newer, smarter and cleaner buses that are also fitted with audiovisual next-stop technology. 

Bus services are improving and we need to improve our bus infrastructure. I'll be bringing forward detailed proposals in the spring for how we can plan to address these issues in the future, together with how we can improve taxis and private hire vehicle services through a better licensing regime, tailored to meet the needs of the people in Wales—all people in Wales. As I recently announced, I believe it was in October last year, media reports about disabled access to taxis will be addressed. Disability Wales said people are being ignored and being refused cab journeys, leaving them stranded and humiliated—stranded and humiliated. That is something that no person should ever feel when travelling from A to B.

We were told that better training for front-line transport staff is a critical requirement if we are to address the issues we have discussed today. In December, I published a policy statement with six outcome-focused objectives that are designed to improve access to our public transport network, including organising better training for staff delivering our public transport services. The quality of training is, of course, as Mark Isherwood said, absolutely crucial. We will make sure that the best quality training is provided to transport services. 

Will you take an intervention?

Yes, of course.

Training is very important, but making sure that people carry out what they've been trained to do is even more important, isn't it?

Oh, absolutely. It's not just about turning up and being trained. It's about making sure that you apply what you are trained to do on a daily basis and that we actually use training as a means of delivering a cultural change in the way that transport is accessed and the way that transport is provided.

But, the objectives that I've outlined in December, and also the actions underpinning them, have been designed by my accessible transport panel, which comprises organisations representing disabled people, older people and people with learning disabilities, and of course with equality groups. So, I'm confident that the training that will be provided will be not just adequate, but of the best standard possible. I'm also pleased that Whizz-Kids have contributed to this work. 

To take up just a number of points in addition that have been raised, what David Rowlands and Janet Finch-Saunders said about on-demand travel, I think, is absolutely essential in order to ensure that people can live the most independent lives possible. I think what Mike Hedges and Rhun ap Iorwerth talked about, concerning the threat of living a life that leaves you isolated and lonely, is very real for many people. I was at an event just last Friday, hosted by Citizens Advice, that looked at how transport, better connectivity, can be used to tackle poverty, particularly in rural areas, and especially in rural areas where there are people who have limited mobility. It goes back to Maslow's hierarchy of needs. If you're not connected to people and services, then you're more likely to live a life that is distressed and unhealthy, and therefore contributes to strains on the NHS and also prevents the economy from growing as we'd wish. 

Also, in terms of audiovisual next-stop announcements, this was something that was raised particularly by Janet Finch-Saunders. This is a position that we have all taken—the position that's outlined in the recommendation—and I believe that it should not be open for negotiation whatsoever. What we use in terms of the bus services support grant is designed not only to improve the quality of bus services for some passengers, it's designed and should be used to improve the quality of services for all passengers. So, those improvements to audiovisual next-stop announcements should and must be pursued by all service operators that are applying for bus services support grant funding.

Deputy Presiding Officer, I do think that now is the time to put our words into action, and now is the time to deliver an accessible and inclusive public transport system that the people of Wales have a right to expect. And now is the time, I think, for us collectively to prevent any person from being left stranded or humiliated by the failure of transport to adapt to the needs of all passengers in the twenty-first century.

Thank you. Can I call on David Rowlands to reply to the debate?

Yes, first of all, can I thank all the Members for their contributions to the debate and the Cabinet Secretary for his positive response to the petition and the committee's recommendations?

Mike Hedges mentioned the courage of Whizz-Kidz in giving evidence to the committee, and reiterated many of the points in the report, but added that disabled people often decide not to go out for fear of using public transport. He also mentioned the training of drivers, operators, et cetera, and the difference between the theory and the on-the-ground delivery of that training regime.

Rhun ap Iorwerth gave us feedback from his constituents over the years and from his engagement with disabled people in his constituency. He mentioned that because they cause delays, disabled people feel that they're a burden on travellers, leading them not to use public transport, causing, of course, isolation and loneliness. Rhun also mentioned that there should be an on-demand situation for disabled people.

Janet Finch-Saunders voiced her admiration for the presentations, both in person and on video, to the committee, and asked about the orange wallet-style assistance scheme. She also raised the importance of audio and visual aids on all forms of transport, particularly on railway stations. Access should be a right for disabled people.

Mark Isherwood stated that this has been an ongoing problem for a very long time, and he made the point that he thought that the Welsh Government was not really engaging with the recommendations made by the committee. He mentioned at length a desire to have disability awareness training, and the need to have cross-border collaboration to deliver the access required.

Cabinet Secretary, I thank you for your congratulations to the committee for the work that we have done in producing this report. Ken spoke of how powerful the engagement in the process of investigation had been in identifying the problems faced by the disabled. The Cabinet Secretary mentioned the improvements already made, but acknowledged that there was a great deal more to do. I thank him for his extensive outlining of his plans for addressing the problems in the future.

In summary, I want to end by reiterating the committee's thanks to the petitioners for submitting the petition, and for the powerful and moving evidence they provided to us. We hope that the next few years will see real improvements made to improve the experience for disabled people on all modes of public transport and across all forms of disability.

Thank you. The proposal is to note the committee's report. Does any Member object? No; therefore, in accordance with Standing Order 12.36, the motion is agreed.

Motion agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.