We moved to item 8, which is a statement by the Minister for Environment on recycling in Wales, and I now call on the Minister, Hannah Blythyn, to make the statement.

Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. As a nation, we can be proud of our groundbreaking success on recycling.

Before devolution, Wales only recycled 5 per cent of waste. We have now reached over 60 per cent. We are leading the way in the UK, and I want us to build on this to make Wales the No. 1 recycling nation in the world. Our success is down to the hard work of people everywhere in Wales, whether they are recycling at home, in the community, or at work. I want to place on record today my thanks and congratulations to all individuals, organisations and businesses for their contribution to tackling waste in Wales. Our impressive results demonstrate that by us all working together and playing our part, we can make a real difference.

Our groundbreaking collaborative change programme provides local authorities across Wales with access to technical expertise on recycling. This enables them to adopt the systems in our collections blueprint, which are the most sustainable and cost-effective options for collection services. Today, I am pleased to announce that I am approving a further £7.5 million for the collaborative change programme.

I was in Merthyr Tydfil yesterday to see, first hand, improvements the council has made to their services through the collaborative change programme, and how this has driven up participation in household recycling. Over the last five years, the programme has helped Merthyr Tydfil council to adopt more sustainable waste collection systems whilst also reducing costs. During that time, their recycling rate has increased from less from 50 per cent to over 65 per cent. Our continued investment in the collaborative change programme and in our award-winning waste infrastructure investment programme has significantly driven up the quality and quantity of recycling collected in Wales. Our ongoing support will ensure that Wales remains at the cutting edge of recycling systems and infrastructure.

Whilst our recycling has significantly improved through, for example, targeting food waste, we now need to focus on other difficult-to-recycle materials, such as some plastics and textiles, whilst maintaining our current progress. The BBC’s recent Blue Planet series highlighted the urgency for global action on plastics and marine litter. Wales’s coast is one of our treasures and a massive tourist attraction. Two thousand and eighteen is Wales's Year of the Sea, so it is timely to act to protect our natural assets by taking further action. We have set up the Wales clean seas partnership with a working group to look at these issues, and to focus action on preventing the problem at source. 

We led the UK in introducing a carrier bag charge and are now bringing in legislation to ban microbeads. We are exploring options to widen access to drinking water in public places in order to reduce the number of disposable water bottles, as well as engaging with water companies and with City to Sea, who worked on the scheme in Bristol. We have secured Wales’s involvement in the UK Government’s call for evidence about how it will address the issue of single-use plastics, including through the use of tax. Alongside this, we will continue to work on a potential stand-alone disposable plastics tax for Wales. We are also exploring the feasibility of whether a deposit-return scheme for drinks containers would work for Wales, given our already high recycling rate.

Community action has a key part to play in encouraging recycling on the go, and addressing littering. Last week, I was pleased to be in New Quay when it was awarded the Surfers Against Sewage plastic-free status, following on from Aberporth who were the first place in Wales to achieve that status. I congratulate these communities for their inspiring achievement and I am keen for similar initiatives, such as the plastic-free status, to take place throughout Wales. The Surfers Against Sewage initiative shows the power and influence of grass-roots movements and individual communities to tap into the public’s social conscious and turn it into co-ordinated action on the ground and change individual patterns of consumer behaviour. The communities of New Quay and Aberporth have shown that by offering and buying alternative products to those made of plastic, consumers, vendors and producers can make a real difference to the eradication of plastic in our seas and on our coastline.

Managing waste appropriately wherever we go reduces the blight of littering on our towns, rural communities and national parks, creating a more pleasant and prosperous environment for us all to thrive in. We provide funding to local authorities and to organisations such as Keep Wales Tidy and Groundwork Wales to address issues around littering and recycling away from home. We are also working with the manufacturing sector to examine the issues around recycling food packaging and recycling on the go.

Recycling and re-using products and materials for as long as possible, in a circular economy, provides wider environmental and economic benefits. A successful circular economy relies on high-quality, recyclable materials and a highly trained and motivated workforce. Wales’s recycling success has been recognised by industry, which values our higher quality recyclable materials. Our research shows the municipal waste and recycling sector provides over 4,000 permanent posts across Wales. There are a further 23,100 jobs in Wales's wider circular economy, with a projected figure of another 12,000 by 2030. I am pleased to hear that a major plastics recycling company is looking to locate a new state-of-the-art facility in Wales within the next 12 months. In addition, we are funding WRAP to work with industry to develop a plastics route-map for Wales that will be published this year. The route-map will identify steps to significantly increase the amount of recycled plastic used as feed material by Welsh industry.

Our impressive recycling results are down to the hard work householders put in, and I want to see this level of achievement equalled by the private sector. As part of our drive for businesses to meet the 70 per cent recycling target by 2025, we are developing proposals for new regulations under Part 4 of the Environment (Wales) Act 2016, and we intend to consult on these proposals this summer.

We are working with Natural Resources Wales and industry to tackle waste crime and to prevent recyclable material being lost from the circular economy. This will address poor quality, contaminated recyclable materials being illegally dumped, burned or exported abroad. Stamping out these practices boosts the legitimate recycling industry, strengthening public confidence and participation in recycling. As other countries increase environmental protection and build their own circular economies, they will become less reliant on the importing of recyclable materials, as illustrated by China's ban on imported waste plastics.

Extended producer responsibility can be achieved by working together across borders. We support the recently published EU plastics strategy and commitments on plastic made by the UK Government in its recently published environment action plan. We welcome a UK approach on extended producer responsibility to tackle the issues around litter and waste prevention to achieve the best outcomes for the people of Wales.

We in Wales should be proud of our record of groundbreaking environmental policy and our successful Welsh way to tackling waste. I intend to sustain and build on this approach, reclaiming our resources towards a zero waste Wales. By working together, from grass roots to Government, and everything in between, we can become the top recycling nation in the world by 2020. Diolch yn fawr.

The Llywydd took the Chair.

Can I just start by saying that this is largely positive news? Wales does have much to be proud of, and I do think it is a success for devolution. I remember all the debates way back 20 years ago about what sort of policy differences could emerge, and even in areas where the policy direction is largely agreed, comparing different jurisdictions and their performance could be key to the general efficiency of public policy, and I do think it's been demonstrated.

Also, I think the Minister's quite right to commend the work of most local authorities in Wales; they clearly have been the main agents to achieve an awful lot of the successes that we have enjoyed over a 20-year period. I also welcome the acknowledgement of the private sector's role, and often they are responding to public demand; I think that's something that we should very much welcome. Last year, as you know, Ikea started its textile take-back scheme in its Cardiff store, and that relates to all sorts of textiles, not just clothing but fabrics in general. So, that's the sort of initiative we want to see.

I note what you said about the access to drinking water, and I think Water UK's Refill campaign has really started to take off in England. You mentioned Bristol, which is where I think it started, and the aim now is that every English town and city would be covered by 2021. I do think it's imaginative to be able to go in to all sorts of retail premises and, for free, have a refill of water. I'd like to hear a bit more about how it's being taken forward here in Wales.

I do think as well as more recycling, we do need more careful use of materials, and that does take us into a more general strategy about what sort of materials we want to encourage in our circular economy. You do refer to those materials that are difficult to recycle, and they're the prime ones that we don't want, really, in our economy. But I think the public are getting much more demanding about the type of depth and integration they want in this sort of strategy. Therefore, I am pleased that you are working closely with the UK Government to encourage producer responsibility, which is obviously key in this area, and I note what you say about the plastics policy that's now contained in the environment action plan published by the UK Government, and, again, I would encourage you to co-operate fully so that we learn lessons from them and vice versa.

I think you're right that littering is a very important problem to tackle. I think, sometimes, people see it as one of the more trivial crimes out there, but in terms of impact on the environment and a sense of well-being, it's really serious. I think we've all been in communities where there's a very poor record, really, of tackling this, and it can be very debilitating, I think, for some communities that see great amounts of waste being just thrown on the streets, for instance. It extends to all sorts of issues, like dog fouling, as well. We need to be vigilant, and we need to ensure that all communities have that ability to ensure it is tackled, because unless you catch people and then there is a deterrent established, unfortunately, behavioural change amongst some offenders can be very slow, as the majority of people everywhere, of course, do not litter.

I do have a few specific questions. I still think it's important to be tough on the local authorities who fail to meet their recycling targets. This is, overall, a positive message. We don't need to be too strict in what we say in this area, but I think that is a mechanism that needs to be used occasionally, and I'm not quite sure what Welsh Government policy is at the moment: you don't seem to be imposing the fines very often.

I do think it's time for an integrated plastics strategy, building on this work, and I note what you said you're doing in terms of microbeads and exploring legislation there, possibly. Similarly, we would welcome further investigation of the use of a plastic tax, if that could be coherent. I'm not quite sure where we are with the deposit-return scheme. That probably is a question that Simon Thomas will pursue, but we were supposed to have a pilot scheme and now we're just having an investigation. There's this qualification—I'm not sure whether the civil servants have sneaked this in—that you're considering it in the light of our already high recycling rates. Well, that does seem slightly cool to me.

Finally, let's not forget that we could stop an awful lot of the need for recycling by having a return to the days that I can remember all too well when not everything was covered in plastic or packaged in polystyrene trays. I think that is something that we really need to send a clear message on, and, again, the public want to do it. They don't mind having their fruit and veg sold loose.

Diolch. Thank you for that comprehensive contribution and questions. You mentioned how litter and dog fouling are often seen as those trivial or low-level political issues, but if you go around a local community and you do a survey, they are the things that are likely to be most high on it, which is why, for me, it's very important that we tackle litter as part of recycling and how we deal with things on the go. Now, we're so used to that culture of collecting things at the kerbside, but what happens with somebody when they've got a bottle, they've gone out for the day, and they're walking down the street? We need to make sure there are places more available for people to be able to recycle when they're out and about.

You make a number of comments—all, on the whole, very positive, which I welcome, course. In terms of you talking about the local authorities, 20 out of 22 local authorities met or exceeded their statutory recycling target of 58 per cent in 2016-17. Overall, local authorities are taking action. They've had support from this collaborative change programme, and we've seen returns of improvement in their recycling rates. Where local authorities have failed to meet their targets, Welsh Ministers are considering options available in regard to applying penalties for local authorities that did not meet the statutory target, and that's something we could update on in due course.

An integrated plastics strategy—absolutely. I think we have to consider everything in the whole and in a way that works for us in Wales. I think it's really important—I talked about the communities that have become plastic free already and how we are seeing there's a huge wave of public opinion and movements. I think it's really important that, as a Government, we embrace that as well, and, as individual Assembly Members, we practise what we preach on that too. So, I think it's really important that we bring all that together and make sure that any solution we come up with in the next few months for Wales meets our needs and actually does tackle those areas that are still outstanding that we still know are problems in terms of hard-to-reach textiles, plastics—that we bring that all together. I think you were talking about the packaging in supermarkets things. It's pleasing to see a number of well-known supermarket brands now starting to announce they're taking notice of this rising public opinion that we now need to—. They will look at how they package, and particularly their own-brand products. I think that's really important and why, as a Government, we work with stakeholders, including the retail consortium, to try and bring businesses along with us to take the action that we need. 

And also looking at our extended producer responsibility study and DRS, I'm sure you're absolutely right that there's going to be a question from Simon Thomas in great detail very shortly. It is something—. You reference where we have high levels of recycling. I think this goes back to what I've just said. It's about making sure that we have a solution that has no unintended consequences but actually complements what we're already doing in Wales and builds on that success.

Of course, I welcome the content of the Government statement today and I note, as David Melding did, that this is the fruit of efforts at a national level not only by Government, but also by local authorities working on the ground too, and the fact that Wales has placed itself as a green nation in all senses of the word in relation to recycling does demonstrate what we can do with the appropriate powers at a national level, and what we can do for the future, and I note that the Minister concluded with the statement that we can become the top recycling nation in the world by 2020, and I hope that becomes a target, not just an aspiration.

The Government has a decent record that it can take pride in in this area, but there’s always room for improvement of course, and I just wanted to ask a few questions on some of the issues that are perhaps more ambiguous in the Minister’s statement this afternoon. Now, first of all, many will be asking: where is the report on producer responsibility? That report should have been published this month. I remember asking the First Minister around a month ago, and he said that at some point in February we would see that report, and I just want to be clear that this delay isn’t something that’s holding us back from doing something in Wales as we wait, for example, for the Westminster Government to make a decision on its own proposal or whatever. Because the record is clear: we can innovate here. We don’t have to wait for the rest of the UK to catch up with us in these areas; we can lead the way and they can catch up with us. But what’s important in that context is that I do think that many people, many citizens, are very concerned, particularly about plastics and the uses that David Melding mentioned, and they are seeking leadership from Government. They realise that the citizen can only go so far. Once you go into the supermarket, you have no option. Well, you can, of course, remove all of the packaging from the goods, as they tend to do in Germany, but that’s not culturally what’s seen as acceptable in this country. But there isn’t an option; there isn’t anything else that you can do. There are interesting developments. I look forward to visiting a new shop in Crickhowell next week that is called Natural Weigh—'weigh' in the sense of weighing goods—which is trying to do everything entirely plastic free, selling produce loose. We’re just returning there to what we used to do, with some of these methods. But, certainly, that report on producer responsibility is important to show that we are taking the lead at a national level.

The second thing that I want to ask you about this afternoon is the plastics tax. I was disappointed that it wasn’t the tax opted for by Government, because I haven’t seen any issue capturing people’s imagination—environmentally, anyway—over the past six months as the use of plastics, but could you give the Assembly an update in terms of what the Cabinet Secretary for Finance had to say in saying that the Government now intends to collaborate on the concept of a plastics tax along with the Westminster Government? What should we expect to happen now? And what steps need to be taken in order to follow through the issue of single-use plastic tax or levy?

Now, I welcome the fact that you have announced £7.5 million, I think, in addition for the joint programme with local authorities, but one of the questions that are still being asked by citizens is: why isn't this consistent across Wales in terms of what is recycled and what isn't? So, the way I recycle here in Cardiff, when I stay in Cardiff, is different to the way I recycle in Aberystwyth—and Aberystwyth is in the vanguard, of course, but that's another issue altogether. But it would be interesting to know what you're doing to standardise things across Wales, because people do travel from place to place, of course, and, as you referred to yourself, if you're on the street with a bottle in hand and you want to deposit it appropriately, well, again, it varies from place to place. In some towns and city centres, there will be an appropriate means of disposing of it; in others there will not.

The final question is the question on the deposit-return scheme. I welcome the fact that there is funding in the budget for such a programme. As I think is clear now, these proposals do work— they work abroad, and they work on the continent. The question for Wales, I think, is: how can a scheme work with the system that we currently have? I've seen what you had to say in your statement—and David Melding referred to that too—but, of course, we must bear in mind that although we are successful in recycling plastic bottles, or the bottles that get to the litter stream, as it were, there's a great deal that doesn't get there, and I think a deposit-return scheme endeavours to tackle those bottles that are thrown onto our streets or put in litter bins and don't even have the possibility of being recycled.

I don't think that we are recycling as much plastic as we think, because we don't count the plastic that is disposed of through the main waste disposal streams. If you look at Norway, where they manage to recycle 90 per cent of plastics, it includes all pieces of plastic sold or in the system. That's what we want to aim for here. In my view, that's where a deposit-return scheme and the possibility of adding to our recycling achievements lie. Implicit in the ambiguous words in the statement here is the fact that plastic is valuable, of course, and that not everyone wants to give up control over a valuable stream of waste, which is currently bringing funds in. But with the changes happening in nations such as China, we don't simply want to switch from China to Vietnam, as far as plastics are concerned—we want to tackle these issues here in Wales and use every piece of plastic that can be recycled or reused as much as possible, and a deposit-return scheme is certainly part of that.

Thank you for those questions.

To start with, in terms of the extended producer responsibility report—and I agree with you that we're proud that we've led the way and we're able to innovate in Wales, and we do want to continue to do that. In terms of when the report is due, it is due this week. When that's out we'll be assessing this and developing recommendations, where appropriate. So, I do hope to be able to come back in the very near future with some dates on that.

If I go straight to look at the deposit-return scheme, the question for Wales on how we work with what we currently have, you're absolutely right: how can we make it fit with how we work here in Wales? And it is something that we need to give careful consideration to, and I know this is something that you're very passionate about because of the agreement, and I'm sure once we have something from the study then we can hopefully meet and then take that further as to what the next steps are. But we definitely need to look at how it fits within what we do here. Also, I think, just linked to what you said about China—that we don't want to simply export our recyclable products elsewhere in the world—I think one of the best ways to do that is to look at how we do better recycling, but also look at making sure we have the infrastructure here in place to recycle and reuse those products in Wales. I've seen some innovative examples recently when plastics have been recycled to be used as part of tarmacking roads as well. So, there are lots of innovative ideas out there, and I think the key is to be open to that but, actually, at the same time, making sure that we turn, like you said, our aspirations into—. I was going to say into 'concrete action'; that's probably not the right phrase then.

In terms of the funding for local authorities in terms of the way they recycle, I'm very familiar with the difference in practice in terms of Cardiff and my own council in Flintshire too, being in two places within the week. The Welsh Government, as you know, has a collections blueprint, which recommends things, but local authorities, as sovereign bodies, can make their own decisions, but, obviously, through our collections blueprint and the support we can give through the collaborative change programme, we hope we can support and work with councils to both improve their efficiency in terms of recycling and also in terms of, actually, invest-to-save with the councils as well.

I think the other thing that links into is how we take forward further education on behavioural change campaigns, because we have seen, to get to the levels we have, a significant cultural shift in terms of attitudes to recycling and it just being an automatic thing that people do now, but I think there's still quite a level of confusion, and I could see that when I visited certain sites and you can see some of the things that people are putting in, even in separated recycling collections—so, the importance of further behavioural campaigns to talk about actually, at the moment, what plastics can be recycled, what can go in your recycling bags or bag, whatever the case may be.

Finally, the plastics tax: I'm not surprised to learn that you're disappointed by the finance Secretary's decision and I recognise the considerable interest in and support for a tax. I saw it myself online and in correspondence as well, but I appreciate the complexity of developing an effective tax in this area. We have had constructive discussions with the UK Government at both ministerial and official level on the need to tackle the issue of disposals tax, including taxation, and it's on this basis—. We're clear that we have expertise to bring to the table on it, being at the forefront of leading on the waste agenda and have much to offer in terms of what we've done and our research capability. So, it's on that basis that the Cabinet Secretary for Finance and I have agreed that the UK and Welsh Governments should work together at this early stage and that we contribute to the analysis of findings following the call for evidence. My colleague the Cabinet Secretary for Finance has agreed to meet the Exchequer Secretary to the Treasury again to discuss progress and contribute our Welsh views on the development of policy options on possible ways forward to reflect the needs of Wales. But, as I said in the statement, we also continue to explore the options for a stand-alone disposable plastics tax for Wales as well.

I'd just like to introduce perhaps a rather different perspective on this. I fully acknowledge the success of the Welsh Government in achieving its recycling objectives, but I think we should recognise that the benefit to the planet of what we do in Wales is obviously going to be very, very small. More than half of the plastic waste that flows into the oceans comes from just five countries: China, Indonesia, Philippines, Vietnam and Sri Lanka. Indeed, the only industrialised western country on the list of the top 20 plastic polluters is the United States, which weighs in at number 20 on that list. We are not mismanaging our collected waste in either the United States or Europe. There is, of course, a certain amount of litter that is deposited. Nobody's going to be in favour of that; nobody is going to be in favour of waste, but I think we have to recognise where the source of the problem is, if we're going to deal with it effectively. China is responsible for 2.4 million tonnes of plastic that makes its way into the ocean every year. That's 28 per cent of the world total. The United States by comparison is responsible for 77,000 tonnes, which is less than 1 per cent. Nobody's defending even that 1 per cent, but if we're going to make significant inroads on plastic pollution in the oceans—I heard the Minister refer to the effect of the programme Blue Planet II, which I fully endorse—we have to deal with the problem at its source. Ninety five per cent of the plastic polluting the world's oceans pours in from just 10 rivers. Eight of them are in Asia, and two of them are in Africa. It is not a European problem, still less a British problem. So, we have to put more pressure on or provide incentives for the countries that are substantially responsible for this problem. Although what we do in this country is all very worthy and worth while, no doubt, it's not going to make the slightest difference to the real problems that exist. I certainly approve of banning plastic beads, for example, which are causing significant problems with fish, and we know that if the problem is not dealt with in a meaningful way, things are going to get worse. By 2050, the amount of plastic in the ocean is going to weigh more, apparently, than the total weight of all the fish in the seas, and nobody's going to want to see that. So, I don't know what the Welsh Government can do to aid the UK Government in putting more pressure upon countries that are responsible for the overwhelming bulk of this kind of pollution, but anything that the Welsh Government could do, I'm sure, would be, perhaps, even more beneficial than the good work that is being done rather closer to home.

Thank you for that question. Actually, I think I fundamentally disagree with many of the points that you made there. It's not for us to turn our back and say that just because we don't create the vast majority of the world's problem, we're not going to show leadership and do something about it. The responsibility is on all of us—individuals, communities, governments—to actually step up and show leadership on this issue and to play our part as responsible global citizens. And that's what we're hoping to do in Wales by actually being there: we're number one in the UK, second in Europe and third in the world. We should be using that and showing our leadership to use leverage to encourage others to take action. If we don't play our part, how do we expect others to play their part as well?

I agree with the Minister that we can be very proud of our success in recycling; before devolution, 5 per cent of waste was being recycled, now it's 60 per cent. But a lot of that has been driven by the taxation on waste, and that's gone up. Local authorities have worked harder and harder in order to recycle. Now we need to look at taxation as a driver for changing people's behaviour.

I think everybody welcomes the ban on microbeads. In fact, I think that if we'd had this discussion 10 years ago, most of us wouldn't have known what a microbead was. The 5p charge for plastic carrier bags has had a visible effect on the environment. You only have to look back to before it existed, and everywhere you went where there was grass, there'd be carrier bags; now there aren't. If you see a carrier bag on a sports field, it's unusual; if you see one in a grassed area, it's unusual. It used to be a very common sight.

Recycling and reusing products and materials for as long as possible in a circular economy provides environmental benefits and economic benefits. Can I just add my voice to that of Simon Thomas? If you want to have things reused, a deposit scheme is the way to do it. It doesn't even have to be very much. If somebody came and asked me for 5p now, I'd give it to them, but paying 5p for a plastic bag, I feel I don't want to, and I'll do anything possible to try and avoid doing so. An awful lot of people follow that—. It's the fact you're paying for something and you don't really need it. I think exactly the same can be true with bottles. Some of us are old enough to remember taking Corona bottles back and getting the 5p. That worked incredibly well. Unfortunately, we've gone to so much plastic and so little glass.

Of course, recycling and reusing are second and third best, because the best is not to use, or if we have to use it, then use less. That's got to be our priority, and we need to give more thought to that. And it's not just plastic. We seem to have gone to plastic now as something that we talk about, but we've also got glass, tin-plated steel and aluminium—they could all be made thinner, and thus reduce the weight of recycling.

Something we've got to be looking for is trying to reduce the weight of recycling by trying to reduce the amount of metal, glass and others in the materials being created. So, what is the Government doing to promote less material in packaging? You probably want a tin of baked beans—you wouldn't want to get them loose; carrying them home might be a bit difficult and embarrassing—but do you really need such a thick tin? It's in the interests of the manufacturer, the consumer and the environment to get thinner tins. So, what is being done to try and reduce those sizes?

May I thank the Member for his very illuminating contribution? I also thank him for his work and interest in this area, particularly as Chair of his committee.

I'm just about old enough myself to remember getting the money back when you took the Corona bottle back, but I think I used to keep it and use it for a mixed bag of sweets, so that's probably not the behavioural change we'd be looking to go for. I think the Cabinet Secretary for health would have something to say about that if I were to suggest that as a policy going forward. [Interruption.] Yes.488

Looking at the how we could use taxation and behavioural campaigns, I think it's actually how we get that balance of the carrot-and-stick approach and, at the same time, to make people aware of why we're doing this and why it's important and the difference that it makes too. So, we're looking in terms of the fact that, yes, it's good for our environment long term, and for our future generations, but also there are economic and social benefits as well from reusing and recycling.489

On promoting less material and packaging, yes, absolutely, I think it's something that could be considered, and that's why it's so important the work that Welsh Government does in terms of working with our stakeholders and working groups across Government to look at how we can engage with the sector. That also goes back to making sure that we are getting that investment in terms of having the innovation and infrastructure in there to be able to make these advances.490

I do hear what he says about the fact that you probably couldn't have your tin of baked beans not packaged, especially if you forget to take your carrier bag to the supermarket. It has absolutely changed behaviour and I think it shows us how that can be done and gives us that—. That's why I think, in Wales, we have such a good platform to build on. If anybody else is like me, you've got a boot full of bags ready for when you call into the shop—and I was talking to some people about this—but sometimes, you forget them. Particularly now, in this position, I'm probably carrying out a load of things like this and trying not to drop them or I run out and leave somebody else to deal with it if I've forgotten my bag. We have seen that shift in awareness and why it's important now as well. That is something we are looking at: how we continue to build on that in a way that not only businesses understand, but also that behavioural change so that people are actually 100 per cent behind it and passionate and believe in why we're doing it as well.

Can I thank the Minister for her statement this afternoon? I will just raise a few concerns that I have about the way in which some local authorities are trying to squeeze further recycling rates out of their local communities.

As you will know, Minister, one of the issues that is causing some consternation in my own constituency is the advent of four-weekly general waste collections by Conwy County Borough Council. It's important that we take the public with us on a journey of behavioural change and you can see from the results across Wales that people don't need to collect waste on a four-weekly basis in order to hit the targets. Some of the best performing local authorities are still collecting their waste on a fortnightly basis. So, there are other ways of achieving greater recycling rates, without actually simply just axing services for local communities. What concerns me, I think, is that there needs to be more consistency across Wales in terms of the way that services are being provided, particularly those waste services from people's homes at the kerbside, because if you've got greater consistency, then you've got greater familiarity from members of the public, and you can potentially achieve far bigger economies of scale for people, and therefore better, more efficient recycling services.

One of the big problems with the situation in Conwy at the moment—and I'd appreciate hearing the Welsh Government's position on this—is the concern about public health. So, not only have we got more litter on the roadsides—and I charge anybody to drive down the A55 at the moment or through some of the trunk roads in Conwy at present, where they are absolutely strewn with litter, absolutely strewn with litter—but, you also end up with more fly-tipping. We've had a big, significant increase in fly-tipping in that community, even though the recycling rate is marginally better. And then, on top of all of that, we've had increases in pest control problems, and the Chartered Institute of Environmental Health have expressed serious concerns about the public health implications of four-weekly waste collections, particularly with pet waste going into people's bins and the problems that that can cause.

So, what we need, I think, is greater levels of consistency so that people can have better access to consistent services across the country, so that when they move from one local authority area to the next, they roughly know what they're dealing with. But, when you have waste collections on a four-weekly basis, if you miss one—if you miss one collection, as people can do from time to time—then it's eight weeks by the time that your bin is collected again. That cannot be acceptable in a modern nation like Wales. I'm all for championing recycling, I'm all for supporting behavioural change. I was one of the first to declare support for a carrier bag levy in this Chamber almost 10 years ago now. And I think that it's time that, as a nation, the Government was able to set a standard below which the frequency of waste collection should not fall. So, I urge you, Minister: please give some consideration to this, please give some consideration to allowing some local flexibility whilst still maintaining certain levels of service and, in particular, a level of service with regard to the frequency of waste collections. 

Thank you for that question. I'd like to congratulate you on being among the first to declare your support for the carrier bag charge in Wales, with us being the first in the UK. [Interruption.] Yes, in the bad old days. I completely hear what you're saying in terms of the issues you're having on a local level. It is, of course, a matter for individual local authorities to determine the frequency of their residual waste collections in their areas, but certainly if you want to get in touch we can give consideration to some of the specific problems you're raising. In principle, we would support less frequent residual waste collections, provided that recycling and food waste collections are weekly, and also with separate arrangements for nappies and similar materials like that, so to tackle some of the issues in terms of—[Interruption.] Yes. So, if the Member would like to get in touch about that in more detail, then it's something we could give some consideration to. 

I agree we have a very good story to tell, but I think the fact that other countries are not quite as far advanced in their recycling as us is not a reason for us not to continue to pursue this matter, and we absolutely have to remember that it's the three Rs: reduce, reuse and recycle. I was astonished to read the other day that the bottled water industry has managed to persuade us to buy bottled water to the cost of £2.4 billion a year for a product that is freely available for nothing in the tap. It's extraordinary what a bit of advertising can do to counteract rational behaviour. 

We mustn't forget, of course, that food waste is a significant issue, and it's an ethical issue in a world where so many people go hungry that one-third of all of our food is wasted and never consumed, and that's clearly an area we need to something about. But taking 'reduce' first, I wonder what assessment the Government has made of the German legislation—it's a very long title—the Closed Substance Cycle and Waste Management Act 1996. That forced manufacturers to reduce their packaging, and has obviously been effective there. 

On the reuse front, I think that there is huge merit to the bottle deposit scheme, as mentioned by others, but I also think that Julie James's behaviour of bringing her coffee cup with her when she goes to buy a coffee—that is a practice that's now being rolled out across most of the best-known coffee shops in the country, and something to be celebrated. But I think that it is still a major problem that we have plastic and cans littered all over our countryside, contrary to what Neil Hamilton thinks, and I think it is a real eyesore.

So, there's no doubt that we can reduce the amount of litter that's produced by these substances if we have a deposit scheme, because you can see in countries like Australia—80 per cent of all their plastic is recycled, 90 per cent in Denmark and 97 per cent in Norway. And in Norway, the chief executive of the deposit-return scheme says:

'Our principle is that if drinks firms can get bottles to shops to sell their products, they can also collect those same bottles.'

I can't understand why it isn't cost-effective to do this. I also think that automation plays a very important role in all this, because in the Norwegian scheme, they post the empty bottle into a machine, it reads the barcode and produces a coupon for the deposit-return. But if the careless consumer has left the liquid in the bottle, the machine takes the bottle anyway but the coupon goes to the shopkeeper who's got to empty and clean that bottle out.

Lastly, focusing on the cost of recycling, what thought has been given to introducing kerbside separation of recyclables across Wales? Because there's no doubt of the volume and value of recycled materials that have been contaminated by glass fragments, which contaminates the plastics and the paper and makes it impossible to recycle it. Conwy, an excellent local authority—they do kerbside recycling, so if they can do it why can't all other local authorities? That would produce more valuable recyclable materials and less cost to the local authority.

I thank the Member for her contribution. She makes some very valid and important points, particularly starting off by emphasising the need to reduce, reuse and recycle—the three Rs that we should all be regularly reciting. 

In terms of the points you make in terms of food waste, that is a big issue as well. I think that's why it's so important that our ambition to halve food waste coming from homes is linked to the work we're doing in terms of working with retailers and industry to reduce the packaging and the sort of packaging they use as well. Because part of that is that the way things are packaged actually lends itself to increasing food waste as well. So, it's all interlinked in terms of the bigger picture in terms of how we tackle that and why it's important that it's all connected.

I'm not overly familiar with the German legislation from 1996 that you mentioned, but I will certainly try and take a look at that or ask officials to do that as well.

On reusable coffee cups, I think you can certainly see how that is building and gaining ground now. I won't mention the well-known coffee retailers who are using them. I was going to say perhaps one of them could use some of the money that they're charging for their coffee cups to pay their taxes. But I have to confess, I have jumped on Julie James bandwagon and have my own branded recyclable cup that I got for Christmas. It says 'Hannah for Delyn' on it, so nobody can pinch that mug, it would be very obvious.

But in all seriousness, on the point that's been made about automation and innovation and how that can present opportunities, we've talked in the Chamber about how automation can also present opportunities to us in terms of how that fits in with our environmental ambitions and agenda as well. The only thing I would say is that I hope the coupons are actually recyclable as well.

I don't know whether they recycle plastic pellets to make heating, but if they could put them into the system here and warm the Chamber up, that would be great. 

Minister, I'm sorry I missed you in Merthyr yesterday. I wanted to welcome your announcement, particularly the nearly £1.3 million that you've announced to invest in specialist machinery equipment in Merthyr, including a recycling rebaler. I'd love to go down and see what that actually does. 

What I would say is I think Welsh Government has in particular reflected the public concerns around the levels of plastic in the environment. We've heard the contributions today about the plastics deposit scheme and that's already been well covered, but clearly we can achieve more through increasing our plastic recycling rates. But, as we know, there are some plastics that we're not currently recycling, simply because the food industry or consumer preferences prevent us from doing so. Both of those are matters that public policy can actually influence.

There are also some plastics like the cellophane covers that are not generally accepted in our current recycling systems, yet other EU countries do collect and recycle that material. While concerns have been expressed over the decision taken in China on not receiving plastic, doesn't that also present us with an opportunity to greatly increase our own domestic plastic recycling sector?

There's a common perception that the plastics industry is a problem, but it does seem to me that we should be working alongside the industry to invest in the plant technology that can take us further on our recycling journey, so that those plastics currently not recycled can be. If we can develop plant technologies, then surely those could be exported to help those parts of the world where, as we’ve heard, plastics and recycling are a far greater challenge than they are here.

So my question, really, is how do you think we could work alongside the plastics industry, which we have to assume are experts in that particular product, to help develop further and innovative ways of helping our plastics recycling?

I thank the Member for her comment. As you mentioned, you missed the visit to Merthyr yesterday. I certainly found it a very interesting visit and it's good to see how they've built on their success following the funding and increased the recycling rates in Merthyr. They'd not only improved their recycling rates but they'd actually helped reduce their costs as well, so having added invest-to-save benefits for the local authority. You said you'd love to go down and see what a bailer actually does—they have invited me to go back, you're very welcome to join me, but I think the next visit includes me actually having to go out with the recycling teams on collections to see how that's working with the public. [Interruption.] The Member just said to go down her street. 

The point she made in terms of the plastics we're not currently recycling—it's really, really key to look at how we could expand what we do on that. Also in terms of—it's been mentioned here before—China buying exports and the solution is not necessarily to export to other markets. The solution should be to actually see how we can invest that as part of our circular economy, which not only brings environmental value but also brings economic value in terms of job creation and working with plastic supply chains.

You're absolutely right, there are some companies out there, and in Wales, who are doing innovative things already. That's why it's so important, the work that we're doing, to bring industries and stakeholders together. And our plastic route-map is so important, so that we can approach that as a whole to make sure we get solutions that work for the long term into the future.  

Thank you, Minister.