3. How does the Cabinet Secretary intend to assess whether a meaningful discussion on justice policy has been held with the UK Government, following the written statement on 6 April 2018? OAQ52140

Presiding Officer, I have had some conversations with justice Ministers in the UK Government on their vision for justice services. I've also taken time to ask my officials to continue to have those conversations with officials in the Ministry of Justice. 

I think I can thank the Cabinet Secretary for his answer. [Laughter.]

Cabinet Secretary, the residents of Aberavon welcomed the statement from the Welsh Government on 6 April, which stated the clear position that any new prison development, including that at Baglan Moors, was effectively put on hold until meaningful discussions take place. I also welcome the intent to seek a criminal justice system for Wales that works for Wales and Welsh citizens, particularly as we have seen a complete meltdown of the justice system and the penal system in England and across the UK totally.

However, being put on hold does not remove the possibility of the proposal returning and a prison being built on that land, as meaningful discussions could occur at any time—and, as you've already said, you've had some discussions. What my constituents seek is something that will give them reassurance for their future, and returns their confidence in the political system. All they want from the Welsh Government is a simple answer to a simple question: will the Welsh Government give assurances that the land at Baglan Moors will not be used for the development of a new prison, irrespective of the outcome of these meaningful discussions?

The Member's written to me on these matters and I've replied to him. I am absolutely clear, and I hope I was clear when I met you to discuss these matters at the end of last month, that as far as this Government is concerned, we will not be giving consent for that land to be sold to construct a superprison on Baglan Moors. We've been very, very clear on that, and I repeat that clarity this afternoon. What I want to see is a wholly different approach to justice, and I hope that both the Secretary of State and Ministers in the Ministry of Justice in the United Kingdom Government will engage with us in a more meaningful way to ensure that we can have a holistic approach to the criminal justice system in Wales, where Governments can work together for the benefit of people in Wales, and we can move away from the current structures that are not fit for purpose. The settlement we have, in my view, for the devolution of criminal justice is not one that is either fit for purpose or works, or that delivers the criminal justice system that we wish to have in Wales.    

Thank you for the answers you've given. I just wanted to clarify whether you meant that Baglan Moors would be taken off any list that you do have. I think that's where the confusion lies. Regardless of meaningful discussion, can you just confirm for the record that even if, for example—not that I'd be happy with it—you did put up a list that would suggest that other areas of south Wales should be considered, that you would not then include Baglan Moors on that list? I understand you met with an AM, David Rees, and other councillors from Port Talbot, where you did say in that meeting, as I understand it, although I wasn't present to be able to quote from it, that you would therefore take Baglan Moors off that list. But in the subsequent letter to said councillor, you didn't put that into writing. So, if you weren't able to do it there, can you do it here today, just so we have clarity of purpose as to where we take the campaign, if nothing else? 

I understand the point that the Member seeks to make and her wish for clarity. I'd hoped that I'd given that clarity. This Government will not be taking forward the development that has been proposed. Well, we haven't actually received a proposal from the Ministry of Justice on it, I'm aware of that, for Baglan Moors. We do not support the development of a superprison in Baglan Moors or anywhere else in south Wales, or north Wales, or mid Wales, or west Wales. What we want to see is a different sort of justice policy. I had anticipated some support from benches opposite for an approach to criminal justice that is rooted in locality, in family, in rehabilitation, in training, in support, in community. And I would have hoped that all politicians, whatever their colours in this Chamber, would support us in seeking to take forward such an approach to criminal justice policy. 

Cabinet Secretary, you went around the whole of Wales saying that the Government, as currently constructed, certainly will not be giving permissions for any—well, you said superprisons, but I assume you're talking about any form of prisons. [Interruption.] That isn't the case? So, can you clarify exactly what permissions or what engagement you will have over what would be built in Wales? Because, as I understood your previous answer to the Member for Plaid Cymru, you indicated that you would not give permission for prisons across Wales. And you yourself talked of other regions in Wales other than Baglan. So, can you be crystal clear as to what the Welsh Government will and will not support when it comes to proposals around the new prisons estate?

We were very, very clear in my—[Interruption.] I have here—. I'm going to read—[Interruption.] I'm going to read—[Interruption.] I'm going to read—. I'm going to read the written statement I made in April. Let me say this: what I said then, and what I'll say again this afternoon, is that it is in the interests of neither the Welsh Government nor the people of Wales to see further prison development in Wales until we have a policy, a criminal justice policy, which is agreed with the Ministry of Justice. I am not going to stand here and say that we do not want to see any development of secure accommodation in this country. That is simply not the case. And it would be wrong for me to either say that this afternoon or to make any commitments on that, because what we want to see is the removal of prisons—[Interruption.] Well, perhaps the Member doesn't wish to listen; perhaps that's why she's confused. We do not want to see—[Interruption.] We do not want to see—[Interruption.] We do not want to see people in the old Victorian prisons. We want a development of the prison and the secure estate in Wales. We want to develop specific facilities for female offenders. We want specific facilities for youth offenders. We want to see an investment in rehabilitation. We want to see an investment in community support. We want to see investment in education. We want to see investment in how we rehabilitate young offenders. So, we want to see a great deal of investment in the secure estate in Wales. What we don't want to see are superprisons imposed upon this country without a holistic criminal justice policy that underpins our ambitions and our vision for this area of policy. And I contend that most people would want to see that as well.