1. Will the Cabinet Secretary make a statement on outsourcing services in the public sector? OAQ52116

The Welsh Government believes public services are best delivered by engaged and supported public servants who are fairly paid for the essential work that they do. The Government also recognises the important role of the third sector and businesses in supporting public service delivery to secure the best outcomes for citizens.

Thank you for that response, because an increasing number of local authorities in Wales have outsourced services to the private sector—look at the way in which the environmental enforcement service has been outsourced in many parts of Wales. Kingdom is the most prominent company in north Wales, and programmes such as Panorama and Y Byd ar Bedwar have outlined how the internal targets of that company drive their efforts to generate the greatest possible profit at the expense of the residents of Wales. Now, bearing in mind that the First Minister told us here in January that he and his Government are entirely opposed to privatisation, and that you yourself have stood up in the Labour conference some months ago, saying that there was no privatisation in Wales, are you comfortable with the growth that we’re seeing in private providers within the public sector across Wales? And, if you’re not, then what are you doing to encourage and support local authorities to develop alternative solutions?

Llywydd, I believe that everybody is very pleased that the Member for North Wales remembers the address I gave to the Labour Party conference in Brighton. I was clear there, and I will be clear here today, too, that the way we deliver our services here is by ensuring the best deal for citizens, and also, of course, for the public workers themselves. It is a matter for the authorities themselves how they set about delivering those services, but I would ensure that—. We have a code of practice on workforce matters, the two-tier code, and he is aware that the officials carry out a national assessment across Wales on an annual basis to ensure that public workers and their rights are protected. I’d be very happy to publish the outcome, the results of those assessments, if the Member is not aware of them.

I'd like to thank Llyr Gruffydd for raising this again in the Senedd, because I was actually one of the first constituencies that saw hundreds of my constituents, particularly the more elderly in our population, targeted in this way by these private enforcers. I'm not against outsourcing to the private sector where local authorities can actually make savings and the service delivery is of a high quality. However, in this instance, we have got severe problems. Ten thousand have taken to signing a social media page. There is a huge campaign against this. I know of MPs and other AMs across north Wales where this is a huge issue.

I take a problem, Cabinet Secretary, with your response. You keep saying it's up to each local authority how they do things. I know that in other parts of the United Kingdom, if there were such schemes in place that were penalising people in the way that this is happening, their national Governments would get involved and actually send some guidance across the line. I would ask you if you would be so kind as to write to local authorities and just point out, where they are outsourcing to the private sector, that you as the Cabinet Secretary for Local Government and Public Services expect due diligence, transparency, financial probity and absolute accountability with those services that are provided. It is unfair if our residents, our visitors, our elderly, if they are being penalised in some way because local authorities are outsourcing simply because they can't make ends meet given your financial settlement.

Presiding Officer, the Member was doing quite well up until that last sentence. She represents a political party, of course, that is almost removing the rate support grant from all local authorities in England, and in the last seven years has seen the spending power of local authorities in England fall by 49 per cent. So, I suspect she's on very, very thin ice there. However, let us take her at her word. We all welcome a sinner that repents. I join her in welcoming the fact that wholesale privatisation is not the way for local or public services to be delivered. I'm glad she's come and joined us in supporting that.

But, let me say this, where there are issues with the delivery of services, they are rightly taken up by Members and others with the local authority concerned. It is not right or proper that we seek to sustain and support local democracy whilst at the same time seeking to instruct local authorities how they should be carrying out their duties and how they should be delivering those services. That's not the way that you strengthen and empower local authorities. The Conservatives put their case to the people of England last week, and I think in most cases they were roundly defeated.

I share the concerns about outsourcing to the private sector, but would the Cabinet Secretary agree that there is sometimes a case for public services to be delivered in the voluntary sector? For example, in children's services, the voluntary sector is often able to get much closer to families than staff in the public services. So, would he agree that there is a case for some services to be outsourced to the voluntary sector?

I will, very much so. I think the Member for Cardiff North is absolutely right in the basis of her question and the assumptions that she makes. I do welcome the different expertise that the voluntary sector can offer and the benefits that can be accrued from working in such an open way. I would also say to her that, as a member of the Co-operative Party myself, I would like to see co-operative solutions reviewed and delivered wherever that is possible as well. The key issue here is that public services should remain and should be delivered within the public ethos, with an ethos of public service, of high quality, and recognising and valuing the workforce that delivers those services. All of those matters are hugely important to all of us, and the democratic control of those services should underpin how we take forward different models of public service delivery. 

Question 2 [OAQ52127] was withdrawn. Question 3, David Rees.