2. What is the Welsh Government's response to the final report of Dame Judith Hackitt's independent review of building regulations and fire safety? 180

Thank you. Dame Judith's report, although focused on England, provides a robust basis from which to work here. We've moved quickly to take this important work forward and I've today announced my intention to establish an expert group to develop the recommendations into detailed and practicable changes for Wales.

Can I welcome that initial response there? As you know, the review concluded that indifference and ignorance led to a race to the bottom in building safety practices, with costs prioritised over safety. It was also said that a new standards regulator should be the centrepiece of a reformed system, but the use of combustible materials was left unclear. Flammable insulation and cladding products are currently being stripped from hundreds of high-rise homes in England, and also some in Wales. Yesterday's announcement from the Welsh Government that it would fund the replacement of cladding on three Newport tower blocks is very much to be welcomed in this regard.

As you know, on 27 February we asked for a statement on the progress that is being made with the cladding safety tests in high residential buildings in Wales. I should say that we must remember those in the private sector here, because I know you'll probably have something very specific to respond to in terms of those in the social sector that are considered at risk. But do you agree that this group needs to resolve the situation very quickly? We need a clear statement on the removal of flammable cladding materials and there should be, in my view, an immediate ban on their use in new construction until we can be absolutely sure about their safety and appropriate use.

Thank you very much for those questions. I agree with you that the report is an extremely sobering read in terms of the changes and the breadth and depth of changes that we need to be making in terms of the regulatory system for high-rise buildings here in Wales. Although the report was very much focused at England, we take it very much in a Welsh context too, because of the very clear similarities in our regulatory regimes across the border.

I'm very pleased to be able to say today that, although Dame Judith did deliberately avoid making any comment on banning any particular materials, we're keen to address this matter, and subject to a legally required consultation we will move to ban the use of combustible materials in cladding systems on high-rise residential buildings. I say 'subject to a consultation' because it is a requirement of the Building Act 1984 that we consult with the building regulations advisory committee on that. But I hope that today I'm sending a very clear message that we will not welcome the use of these combustible materials on buildings in Wales.

Ever since the Grenfell Tower disaster we have worked really hard in order to establish where our high-rise buildings are in Wales. We've now got to the point, or we did quite some time ago, where we've managed to identify every single one of those buildings, and we've taken a casework approach, developing an individual relationship between Welsh Government and those building owners and the landlords of those buildings in order to ensure that we're sending out the correct and detailed safety advice that those buildings need. In Wales we differ slightly to England because of the scale here. We have just over 100 high-rise buildings, so we've been able to take a casework approach, keeping that business in-house, whereas across the border in England, again because of the scale, it's been led on a local authority basis. So, in terms of the cladding that failed the large-scale BRE tests, there are 12 in the private sector in Wales, and we're working with those landlords on that in order to ensure that that cladding is removed and replaced. As you've mentioned, yesterday, we were able to provide funding for Newport City Homes in order to replace the cladding there.

Addressing the cladding issue is only part of the picture. We've been very clear that building owners and landlords must work very closely with experts in order to undertake a review of the safety and of the status of those buildings, because we've been very clear that every building is an individual building and should be treated as such. I think that's really recognised in chapter 8 of the Hackitt report, which says that there should be a golden thread running though buildings so we can understand, from the concept of the building right through the lifetime of the building, any changes that are made to that building. I think, although Dame Hackitt is very clear that her report should be seen in the round, actually, that was one of the chapters that really stood out to me as something that can really make a big difference.

Thank you for putting the question down today. I think we need to ask if the system is now fit for the future. It was clear at Grenfell that risks were not taken as seriously as they should have been and that safety was put on a secondary footing to cost in some key respects. I'd like to ask how the £400 million announced by the UK Government for cladding removal and building upgrades in England will affect Wales. Is any of this money going to be spent in Wales? And, if not, will there be a Barnett consequential for Wales? What is the latest assessment of the potential cost to Welsh local authorities of replacing cladding and carrying out any necessary safety upgrades? I note your announcement with regard to Newport, but I understand that no similar announcement has been made to assist Cardiff council in carrying out work on their six tower blocks.

Could you give us an update on the current situation regarding private tower blocks? I know you've mentioned it here briefly already, but you issued guidance and wrote to local authorities asking them to make the necessary assessments. So, what is your view on the problems that leaseholders face and those in private developments more generally? There hasn't been any action in terms of private dwellings from the UK Government, aside from urging developers and owners not to pass on the costs. However, this issue has now found itself in the legal system and one group of leaseholders have been ordered to pay the costs to replace cladding in Croydon instead of the building developer and freeholder, with residents facing costs of up to £25,000 each.

This may be an issue for some of the flats here in Cardiff, such as Prospect Place, where there's a new management agency called Warwick Estates, which is basically the residents' association because Bellway has now left the scene. Many residents in private tower blocks are going to be facing huge uncertainty over who is responsible for fire safety upgrades, and this will continue when and if fire safety standards are increased in the future. So, have you made any assessments of the potential costs to upgrade private dwellings in Wales that have failed any tests? Will there be money put in place for the current flats and any new builds also? What would be the difference in tack in relation to the current flats that are in existence and any new builds that are in existence?

I'd like to finish by saying that I was very, very concerned over the weekend to hear that, in the flats that I've mentioned previously in my question, some of those particular flats did not even have fire alarms in them, in this capital city. When we've had this whole focus on flats and safety, it's preposterous to me to imagine that those flats did not even have fire alarms. So, I would urge you to go back to talk to the private landlords in this instance and to exemplify the severity of the situation, because lives will be at stake if they do not up their game.

Thank you very much for those questions. You started off by saying that concerns weren't adequately addressed, and it's absolutely right; it seems that the concerns of the residents of Grenfell weren't listened to, and they were raising those concerns over a long period, which is why it's so important that, in the Hackitt review, the voice of residents comes through very strongly as something that needs to be developed. I think in Wales we certainly have good tenant engagement in our social hosing sector, so there's lots that we can learn in terms of how we can develop that. As we know from the debates that we've had over previous legislation, on the Regulation of Registered Social Landlords (Wales) Bill, for example, tenant engagement is something I'm particularly keen to develop, and the Hackitt review tells us why that's really important.

The £400 million was identified by the UK Government from its departmental budgets and it specifically is for the social housing sector, so there won't be any consequential funding to Wales as a result of that. So, equally, we were able to find £3 million from my departmental budget in order to ensure that Newport City Homes was able to replace the category 3 aluminium composite material cladding. We have specifically targeted this funding at that ACM category 3 cladding, which was the cladding that failed the large-scale tests, and we've mirrored the approach that has been undertaken in England.

I have to say that Dame Hackitt did engage very well with the Welsh Government and stakeholders during the production of the report, and the Cabinet Secretary for the environment and I had a briefing from Dame Hackitt the day before the report was published. But it is a matter of regret for us that the report wasn't shared with Welsh Government ahead of its publication. I think that would have been a useful thing to do, given the fact that we are so involved. I appreciate it's a report aimed at the UK Government, but, equally, our contexts are so similar, and our engagement has been so regular, that it would have been appropriate, I think, for us to share it so that we could discuss our respective announcements on the same day and to give residents the kind of reassurance that they need.

In terms of private sector buildings, I do share your concern. Again, as I said in response to David Melding, every building is different, so there'll be issues of responsibility that might be different within each building. There are changes to the building that might have taken place since it was built, for example—who undertook that, what are the warranties and so on? So, there are various issues that will need to be looked at. But I'm very aware that this is a stressful time for residents within the private sector. There are a number of court cases that have been taken forward in England, which might give us some idea of case law, but, again, this is very much on an individual basis for those buildings.

In terms of new builds, I would hope that we will move very quickly in terms of the future of the regulatory regime. The First Minister has asked me to chair an expert panel, which will look to make recommendations to Welsh Government on how we will take this issue forward in future. I wouldn't want to have any delay in that, so I would expect that group to be reporting with the way forward by the end of the year. So, new-build buildings in future, subject to any changes that we would need to make in terms of regulation and so on, would be built to those new standards. 

Equally—the report is very clear that that golden thread for new buildings has to be robust, but, actually, we need to start looking back at existing buildings in terms of the materials used, the changes made to those buildings and even are the buildings what was originally proposed in the design phase. So, I think that there is a lot of work for us to be taking forward, and it will be a lot of work over a long period, but, equally, we'll have to prioritise upfront the issues that are going to make a difference in terms of the safety of residents.  

Finally, and briefly, John Griffiths.

Yes, Minister, I very much welcome your announcement of the £3 million for the recladding of the high-rise blocks in Newport. If Welsh Government hadn't provided that funding, it would have adversely impacted on necessary new development, as well as improvements to existing stock and, indeed, their environments, so thanks very much for that.

Would you join me, Minister, in recognising the timely action of Newport City Homes in responding to the terrible tragedy of Grenfell and the challenges that posed in terms of the retrofitting of sprinklers, engaging very closely with tenants and, indeed, working very closely with Welsh Government?

I thank you very much for that, and I would absolutely commend Newport City Homes on the work that it's undertaken immediately following the tragedy at Grenfell and since. They've taken robust action in terms of the building itself—so, introducing that sprinkler system, for example, but they've also been very clear in terms of tenant communication. I know that they knocked on every single door of the tenants within their three blocks to talk to them individually about the issues to provide them with reassurance, but also to give tenants the opportunity to ask any questions that they might have. They also had some drop-in sessions, for example, and provided some written material, which I know our fire safety advisory group did hold up as being exemplary, and we shared that with others to show an example of how a complex issue and a really concerning issue can be communicated in a way that is understandable to all tenants and provides strong advice and information but without doing so in a way that causes undue alarm to the tenant. I was really pleased to visit Newport City Homes to talk to some of the tenants, and they were very complementary about the service that they'd had from Newport City Homes, and also felt that the new sprinkler system, for example, was a visual and tangible sign that their safety was very much being accounted for. 

Thank you very much, Minister.