Questions, now, from the party spokespeople. Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Siân Gwenllian.

How much will it cost to halve the number of councils in Wales?

That cost will reflect the kind of framework that we decide upon.

I don’t think that answers my question, and to be honest, it is a briefer response than I got from the First Minister the other day when I asked the same question. But, the answer I got was just as lacking in substance as that one, and I have to say that attempts by Ministers, time and time again, to refuse to answer simple questions is an insult to this Assembly.

Work has been done on the cost by a number of different organisations. Work was presented to the Welsh Local Government Association by the highly respected expert Professor Malcolm Prowle recently, with some organisations estimating that the restructuring proposals could cost up to £268 million. The research by Professor Prowle also provides evidence from England, and international evidence, that demonstrates that merging and restructuring local government has negative financial impacts. Is the truth, therefore, that either you haven’t carried out any assessment of the cost, or you are refusing to release that information? And that, in turn, deprives local government and this Assembly of those crucial facts that we need during this debate.

Llywydd, what would be most insulting would be to finish a consultation yesterday and inform you of the decision today, without considering any of the representations made to us over the past months. That would be most insulting to those people who have participated in this discussion. But may I make this quite clear? I met with Professor Prowle last week, and I had a long conversation with him, and I actually saw his presentation, when he discussed the kinds of figures that the Member has alluded to today. But may I tell you this? He finished his presentation by saying that nine councils would be preferable and better for Wales.

Well, let us move on from the question of cost for the time being, and turn to one of the questions I asked you when you were appointed as Cabinet Secretary for local government. That question was what kind of style you were going to adopt in dealing with local government. It may be true that we haven’t seen quite the level of argument and contention in the media between yourself and local authorities, but the stark disagreements continue, and the truth is that there isn’t support from local councils for the Green Paper proposals.

Debbie Wilcox, as you well know, has said that any sensible estimate would show that council mergers wouldn’t save money. 'Taking unnecessary attention', as the leader of Caerphilly put it, and yesterday, as we heard, we had a formal response from Denbighshire County Council, which is one of the few councils that was willing to merge during the last Assembly term, and Denbighshire noted that there isn’t a credible case for change that has been made in the White Paper. When you started in this role, you said that it was time to have a new relationship with local government. Was creating total disagreement between Government and local authorities what you had in mind?

When you posed the question, I replied here in the Chamber, and also on my blog, and you’ve questioned me on that since the publication of the article. And I was entirely clear at the time that I have a vision for the future and I have a vision of a different government in Wales—a model that devolves power from this place, and you and Plaid have—. I have heard many speeches from Plaid Cymru on that subject over the years, and now I'm proposing that. I am proposing devolution from Cardiff bay to Denbighshire, Anglesey, Caernarfon and even to Bangor. And I am holding that discussion with local government, and also beyond local government, because too frequently we talk about government as if we, the Members, and councillors, own it. I think it is the people of Wales that own the way that we govern, and not politicians.

Conservative spokesperson, Janet Finch-Saunders.   

Diolch, Llywydd. Cabinet Secretary, your Green Paper on local government reform is unsurprisingly not going down too well with many local authorities and those working within the sector across Wales. Indeed, having received a substantial number of the same responses to your consultation myself, there is clear evidence already that your proposals are considered to be unworkable, without consideration of the massive challenges facing local authorities, and that they are, in fact, just a simple rehash of a previous Minister's plans. Some of the responses are as follows. The Vale of Glamorgan: the previous Cabinet Secretary promised 10 years of stability; this Cabinet Secretary has not even provided 10 months' worth. Newport: the proposals represent a distraction from the challenge of delivering services and meeting the needs of increasingly complex communities. Monmouthshire: the Green Paper is silent on the core issues that are at the heart of the debate. Caerphilly: we cannot see that a wholesale local government reorganisation is something that should be considered; the financial benefits are debatable at best. Ynys Môn: the First Minister needs to stick his Green Paper in the bin, where it belongs. 

Now then, given that local authorities and those responsible for delivering service to our most vulnerable on a daily basis are infuriated, demoralised and disenchanted by your Green Paper, and that, in real terms, these proposals are causing instability and distraction from their already constrained service delivery, what steps will you take to reflect the many well-informed voices speaking up to pull back on these unsettling and disastrous proposals going forward?

The Conservative Member uses—[Interruption.] The Conservative Member uses the fact of austerity as if it's the greatest gift that local government has ever received. Let me say this: there are significant issues facing local government today. Most of them are the result of the financial constraints that they face, but not all of them. Welsh local government has, at many times, been clear in itself that 22 local authorities is too many and that it is not sustainable. They've said that on a number of occasions. Now, what we have to do is look to a way forward.

Now, I've heard no response from the Conservative spokesperson on a positive way forward. It's the easiest thing in the world to read the newspapers to Members of the National Assembly, but I would suggest that it's an inadequate response to the challenges facing us. Now, I have said very, very clearly that I want to see a positive debate. I want to see an enriching debate. I want to see a debate about how we devolve powers across Wales and how we empower local authorities and how we empower citizens. And I'll be absolutely clear, as I was in an earlier answer to the Member for Arfon, that it is not politicians, whether in county halls or in this place, that own the governance of our country; it is the people of this country that own the governance of this country. 

Cabinet Secretary, I have actually responded to your consultation myself; I suggest you haven't read it yet. You continue to repeat the same old line that the Green Paper only sets out the debate on local government reform and the merging of councils, but that isn't really the case, is it? In April, I was made aware that the Labour Party itself was having internal discussions about how to force through your proposals and that one of the ideas discussed is to halve the number of councillors in merged areas, and, at the same time, increase their pay by 62 per cent, from £13,600 to around £22,000 per year, in order to sweeten the deal for mergers and the cutting of numbers of elected members. You may be surprised that I know this, or, there again, you may not know yourself, so far removed are you from the local government community in Wales. For those who have served their time and are wanting to stand down, another proposal of Welsh Labour is to pay those councillors who would lose their seats, based on years of service, around £500 per year, meaning, for someone who's served 20 years, they will get a £10,000 bung. Really, Cabinet Secretary—really, Cabinet Secretary—is this the way that you or a Welsh Labour Government or any Government should be carrying out local government reform, where it's more important to carry out backroom deals with your own Labour councillors than reach cross-party consensus with all across Wales? You'd make a start in this Chamber—during your last contribution, your own backbenchers were speaking up against these proposals. Surely, this does amount to nothing more than a shabby bung to Labour councillors. Personally, I believe the people of Wales deserve better—a pity you don't.

Presiding Officer, I was wondering if I'd have another opportunity to speak this afternoon. I have to say, I think she's diminished herself in that previous contribution. I think there was a question there somewhere, although I'm struggling to find it. Let me say this: there has been certainly no debate within the Labour Party of that sort, and, as I said, she diminished herself with that contribution. She may be referring to a report of the remuneration panel for Wales, which is an independent panel, and, if she has any comments to make on those, then she should make those on the record and face up to what she says there. But I have to say this to her: I am considering the report of the remuneration panel for Wales; I have not made any decisions on it, and, when I do take a decision on it, I will publish it. And that report will be from an independent panel. I do hope that she will take the next question as an opportunity to withdraw some of her remarks.

Cabinet Secretary, on a point of order, you should not be stood there, telling me that I'm diminishing myself. I have every right to be here to scrutinise and challenge you—and scrutinise and challenge you I will. I have been speaking to the local government community across Wales—I suggest you do. Your Green Paper consultation closed yesterday. This is, in real terms, the sixteenth Welsh Government document outlining reform of some kind to local government structure or working since 2004. And, indeed, in the 20 years of devolution, local government has gone round the table 10 times—there have been 10 Ministers for local government. That doesn't show much importance to this community, which delivers the most vital services. Now, in—. This year, in April, the three fire and local authorities asked you how your local government reform will fit with the reform to their structures—because you're even trying to challenge them at the moment—and you haven't answered that question. Additionally, we know that local government has integral links with other areas of the public service delivery, such as the health service, education, provision of housing and social care, and, particularly, the considerable concerns facing the health service in Wales, including nursing and doctor shortages, systematic failures to keep to waiting times, health board overspends—

I think you do need to come to your third question now.

—continuing direct governmental control of Betsi Cadwaladr University Local Health Board. I have asked you before, and I'll ask you again, and it'll go on record again: what discussions have you taken with your other Welsh Government Secretaries responsible for the delivery of those public services about working together in a strategic manner, or is it simply the case that those discussions haven't taken place, and this is simply you going off on a tangent to rehash old and tired plans that were firmly squashed once before?

Members may be shocked to discover that we have conversations between different Ministers on an almost daily basis, and I've discussed this matter with the Cabinet Secretary for Finance this morning. I'll be discussing exactly this matter with the Cabinet Secretary for health at the conclusion of our business today. I'll be discussing these matters with other Ministers on a weekly basis. But, more than that, in answering this question, Presiding Officer, I want to go back to a different proposition. What we need in Wales—. And, actually, almost by accident, the Conservative spokesperson may be right about one thing, and that is that, over a period of 20 years, we have not reached an agreed, mature relationship with local government, and that is a responsibility not simply of this Cabinet Secretary, but a responsibility of this place, this institution, yes, the Government, and also local government. For me, what is important isn't a deal between politicians, whether it's in a back room or in the front room, but to work in the interests of the citizens of this country, to empower people, to ensure that we have democratic accountability in towns and county halls up and down Wales, and to devolve power from this place to centres of decision making across Wales and to ensure that we take care and protect the public service workers who are delivering our services. And do you know what all of those people have in common? Not one of them has suggested to me that we need more austerity or more Conservative policies.FootnoteLink

Information further to Plenary

UKIP spokesperson, Gareth Bennett.

Diolch, Llywydd. I was interested in some of your remarks earlier, Minister, in response to Janet Finch-Saunders's contribution, particularly when—[Interruption.]—particularly when you talked about empowering the citizens and how the key issue facing local government is how to empower citizens, and you also said that it is the people who own the country, which are very noble sentiments.

Now, I'm interested in what you've been saying in the media recently, with your call for a second referendum on Brexit—a so-called people's vote. I was intrigued by this, as I thought we'd already had a people's vote. In my innocence, I thought that the referendum itself was the people's vote, but your public stance is intriguing and it's certainly something that we can perhaps develop today. 

Now, one of the problems that we have in Wales is that, at local government level, we have first-past-the-post, so that tends to mean that we can get councils elected—usually Labour councils, it has to be said—winning more than 50 per cent of the council seats on less then 50 per cent of the vote. Now, that's a generalisation, I accept that, but it is a broad picture of the local government scene in Wales that I'm sure you would recognise. You have recommended that councils consider moving towards a different system, which is the single transferable vote. Certainly, that system would be more democratic. With your well-known commitment to the democratic principles, how far will you be pushing local councils in Wales to move towards this more democratic system?

My views on support of proportional representation are well known and are already on the record. The policy of this Government has not changed since I made an oral statement on this matter in January.

Right. I think that we may accept the difficulty of actually getting local councils run by the Labour Party, which do well under first-past-the-post, actually going towards a different system. I think you may actually recognise that that may be a problem. But we will move on.

Another area where we have something of a democratic deficit in Wales is in the planning system. Many local communities feel completely disempowered. When they unite, form protest groups and campaign against unwanted local developments, like major roads and intensive housing projects, then they find that, despite almost total local opposition, the scheme gets planning permission regardless. UKIP contends that we should allow for a local referendum in this instance. The result would be legally binding. This policy would democratise the planning process. Again, thinking about your comments earlier about how to empower local citizens, would you think again about adopting this policy yourself? 

I think there are many arguments in favour of direct democracy and there are examples in different parts of the world of where it works well. California is a very good example, I think, parts of the United States—Switzerland might be an example of where, possibly, it doesn't work so well. But it's a part of a way of doing government—it isn't simply a policy that you can insert into a model that is otherwise designed to work in different ways. What is important to me is that we have accountability. I don't believe that we have effective accountability in all parts of Wales at the moment in terms of how we deliver local government. I want to strengthen that accountability, but I also want to see how we can ensure that we have a diversity in representation in local government. There have been a number of reports in front of this place over many, many years that have described the lack of diversity in local government. The Member for Arfon will be making a contribution later today on diversity in this place, and I will be looking towards how all our reform processes will strengthen both accountability and diversity in local government. But, for me, the absolute key ambition is empowerment and strengthened local decision making.

Diversity is something that we are about to explore on the local government committee, so we will, hopefully, feed into that process, and that is something that does concern us. You gave an interesting answer about the local referendum issue, citing the example of California, so I'm encouraged by that. Given your interest in these ideas and these different forms of democracy—representative democracy, direct democracy et cetera—I would be interested in how you look to incorporate these ideas going forward. Would you accept, though, at this stage, that there is a problem with public perception of the planning system in Wales—not just in Wales, but in the UK—and that it does seem to be unrepresentative of local citizenry?

No, I wouldn't accept that, and, of course, my friend, the Cabinet Secretary for Energy, Planning and Rural Affairs has just answered questions on these matters, and so I don't wish to pursue any further debate or discussion on the particular issue of planning. What I will say in trying to answer the question in a positive sense is to refer you to the points I've made about the citizens owning the governance of this country and not politicians owning the governance of this country. And what is important to me is that we're able to look for different and new means and methods of holding us as politicians to account, as Ministers to account, as Assembly Members to account and local authority councillors to account. But also, how do you empower different levels of local government? I had a very good meeting with a panel of town and community councils this morning, debating and discussing some of their proposals, which, I hope, will be published in the coming months. But, for me, this is a positive and enriching debate about empowerment; it's not simply a debate about lines on maps, processes of mergers and how to either propose or avoid those matters. For me, the really important issue about the debate on local government reform is the ambition, the end point, the vision and not simply the process.