The following amendments have been selected: amendments 1 and 5 in the name of Caroline Jones, amendments 2, 3 and 4 in the name of Darren Millar, and amendment 1 in the name of Rhun ap Iorwerth.

Item 6 on our agenda this afternoon is the debate on the M4 corridor around Newport, and I call on the Minister for Economy and Transport to move that motion—Ken Skates.

Motion NDM7097 Rebecca Evans

To propose that the National Assembly for Wales:

1. Notes the Public Inspector’s report and decision letter published by the First Minister on Tuesday 4th June, including an oral statement later that day, regarding the M4 corridor around Newport project.

2. Notes the proposed next steps outlined by the Minister for Economy and Transport including the establishment of an expert Commission to be led by Lord Terry Burns.

3. Recognises the significant congestion issues on the M4 network around the Brynglas Tunnels and the impact it has on Newport and the wider economy.

4. Notes the Welsh Government’s commitment to developing and funding sustainable and effective solutions to congestion issues as part of an integrated, multi-modal and low carbon transport system.

Motion moved.

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. It is indeed a pleasure to bring forward this debate this afternoon. Members have already been able to put across some of their views during a recent Plaid Cymru debate, but I think this is an incredibly important subject and it's only right, therefore, for Members to have the opportunity to provide contributions in full.

As Members and as all other interested stakeholders are aware, the First Minister decided not to proceed with the M4 corridor around Newport project, otherwise known as the black route. And, yes, as a Government, we are aware that, in terms of the M4 around Newport, our proposal was the black route and that is what we were pursuing and what we were promoting. However, I do recognise that times have changed since the black route was conceived. It is only responsible for Governments to accept when times change and when new challenges are presented, to respond accordingly and to act in a nimble way, and that's precisely what we have done.

I can assure all Members that we recognise that this challenge has to be addressed. 'Do nothing' is simply not an option. The question for us is how we are able to respond, packaging some of the alternatives in a way that will reduce or eliminate congestion. I believe that we can achieve a reduction in congestion on the M4 through Newport in a way that offers value for money and minimises cost to the public purse.

I'm pleased that Lord Terry Burns will chair the expert commission to make recommendations on the next steps for the transport network in south-east Wales, and the terms of reference of the commission were published alongside my recent written statement. The commission will be small and will be focused. It will consider the views of all stakeholders, such as the National Infrastructure Commission for Wales, the future generations commissioner, business groups, social partners, environmental groups, transport user groups and local and national political representatives. I believe it is imperative that social and economic performance should be central to this crucial work. The commission will therefore ensure that their views are fully captured in its work.

Now, the commission's work has already begun. I've had incredibly constructive discussions with Lord Burns about the work that's being undertaken to date by the Welsh Government and how he and his commission will take the work forward. We are examining all short-term measures that are available to alleviate congestion. I'm pleased that we are able to introduce additional patrol services and breakdown recovery services. These will not come without cost, of course; these are expensive services, but they are now tried and tested. They were deployed first on the A55 as part of the A55 resilience work, and they are now proven to work.

I must add that not all of the money that was allocated to the black route is available for a road-based solution or for interventions purely on the M4 because, of course, one of the reasons why the First Minister decided not to grant the Orders was because it would have drawn capital from other vitally important social infrastructure. However, the First Minister has already been clear that the recommendations put forward by the commission will have the first call on funding set aside by the Welsh Government to resolve the issues that we see on that part of the road network.

But we've also been clear with Members that those solutions must represent good value for money. It will be for the commission to consider all solutions. We will not be entertaining any pet projects, as I said in my written statement, outside of the commission's work. Whilst there will always be competing demands for funding, we are clear that delivering sustainable solutions for the significant challenges along this transport corridor is a top priority, and I can assure Members that the money spent since 2013 developing the proposals for the M4 project will not be wasted and will be put to good use by the commission, making sure that it is fully informed in terms of transport modelling, in terms of environmental surveys and all the other factors at play right across the region.

I recognise that the figure attached to the development cost of the proposed black route is significant, but it does represent something in the order of just 6 per cent of the overall project cost that was estimated. And that, as I've said already in this Chamber, compares very favourably to other projects across the UK. You only need to look at development costs of projects such as HS2 to appreciate that you cannot deliver a major infrastructure project in the western world without incurring significant development costs.

We've also been very clear in stressing that this project is absolutely unique in terms of the scale and in terms of the impact on the site of special scientific interest, and that, therefore, it had to be considered in its own right. Since we presented, I think, a very compelling case, there's been a declaration of a climate emergency, a greater understanding and appreciation that we need to act now, that we need to be more responsive and more responsible, and, therefore, the bar has been raised.

I know that other schemes have been highlighted recently and a fear that they will be lost as a consequence of this being seen as having set a precedent. That is simply not the case; all of those programmes will go ahead. Indeed, the Caernarfon-Bontnewydd bypass is going ahead. We are proceeding with consultations on improvements to the A483 this month. Work on the Flintshire corridor of the A55/A494 will be proceeding this summer with further modelling work, Welsh transport appraisal guidance work and further consultations and meetings with local stakeholders. Other road projects across the length and breadth of Wales are still in the pipeline to be delivered, and this does not shift our position on those.

We also have some incredibly exciting and bold plans for public transport here in Wales: from the £5 billion plan that we've developed, through Transport for Wales, for the new and transformational rail franchise and metro; to major legislation that will help us to re-regulate the bus network; to, of course, the biggest investment we have ever made in active travel. There is a huge amount of exciting work taking place right across Wales that I think will inspire, will encourage and will enable modal shift, which is so very important. Dirprwy Lywydd, we are committed to taking an inclusive and collaborative approach to finding innovative, affordable and sustainable solutions in the shortest possible timescale, and we look forward to working with Members and stakeholders in conjunction, of course, with the commission, to meet that need.

Thank you. I have selected the six amendments to the motion and I call on David Rowlands to move amendments 1 and 5, tabled in the name of Caroline Jones.

Amendment 1—Caroline Jones

Add as new point after point 1 and renumber accordingly:

Regrets the Welsh Government’s failure to abide by its promise to deliver an M4 relief road.

Amendment 5—Caroline Jones

Add new point to the end of the motion;

Recognises that congestion around Newport has been hampering the Welsh Economy for the last two decades and calls upon the Welsh Government to ensure that, in the absence of a relief road, any mitigation measures are put in place as soon as possible.

Amendments 1 and 5 moved.

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. I formally move amendments 1 and 5 tabled in the name of Caroline Jones, and wish to confirm at this point that we will be supporting amendments 2, 3 and 4, tabled in the name of Darren Millar.

I move amendment 1 and simply record that the delivery of a relief road for the M4 motorway at Newport was a Labour Party manifesto pledge. Moving amendment 5, I fear it is incumbent upon each party in this Chamber to discuss, in a productive and co-operative way, any firm proposals and alternatives proffered by any Member or party in this Chamber. The situation at Newport is now so dire that we all have to put party politics aside, both for the people of Newport and the Welsh economy in general.

Even this morning I witnessed, at 6.45 a.m., a horrendous tailback from the tunnels to junction 28, and further, last Friday, I experienced a tailback from the St Mellons interchange right through to the tunnels. Again, I wish simply to make the point that speed limits from the Tredegar Park interchange were exacerbating the problem, because actual traffic volumes flowing through the tunnel were quite low.

I wish to confirm that we support all moves to accommodate people on public transport, and we believe that this will be a vital factor in cutting down the volumes of traffic now experienced on that road, and I am absolutely certain that the metro will help a great deal in actually reducing those volumes. But, as the Cabinet Minister knows, there has to be a much greater emphasis on what is actually happening on the M4 motorway, and I look forward to the proposals coming out from the commission with regard to their proposed solutions. Thank you.

The Llywydd took the Chair.

I call on Russell George to move amendments 2, 3 and 4, tabled in the name of Darren Millar. Russell George.

Amendment 2—Darren Millar

Add as new point after point 1 and renumber accordingly:

Regrets the failure of the Welsh Government to publish the independent Public Inspector’s report prior to 4 June 2019.

Amendment 3—Darren Millar

Add as new point after point 3 and renumber accordingly:

Further regrets the failure of successive Welsh Labour Governments to deliver a solution to congestion on the M4 to date.

Amendment 4—Darren Millar

Delete point 4 and replace with:

Calls on the Welsh Government to accept the recommendation of the independent public inspector and build the M4 relief road.

Amendments 2, 3 and 4 moved.

Thank you, Presiding Officer. I move the amendments in the name of my colleague Darren Millar.

On 23 October, the then leader of the house, Julie James, standing in for the then First Minister, speaking on behalf of the Government, committed that we would have a binding vote in Government time on the M4 relief road project. I think it's disappointing that this commitment has not been honoured. Six years on from the start of this project, the inquiry has taken the best part of two years to examine the Welsh Government's own proposals and 28 alternatives at a cost of what we now know is £114 million. Only, of course, for the whole scheme to be scrapped by the First Minister.

I'm disappointed that the Welsh Government has now kicked the can down the road yet again, with the creation of a new expert commission, which was put together to come to new conclusions within six months. What's to say, of course, that at the end of that process, the First Minister will not just run a coach and horses through Lord Burns's recommendations, like he has done with rejecting the detailed conclusions of the report of the independent public inspector?

The Welsh Government is right in its motion that the significant congestion issues on the M4 have an impact on the economy of Newport and the wider economy. But it's all very well putting that in a motion today; this Welsh Government is part of the problem and not part of the solution. 

'"Make do and mend" is no longer a sustainable policy choice to meet the long-term needs of Wales.'

Not my words; they're the words of the economy Minister with regard to the M4. For 20 years, the Labour Government have pretended that they know what they're doing with the economy, but I'm afraid they're just making it up as they go along. Since the rejection of the inspector's conclusions, the Government has no plan, no targets, no practical solutions that will resolve the congestion issues that are holding back Newport's economy, and suffocating the wider Welsh economy.

We on these benches cannot support a motion that fails to recognise the Welsh Government's failure over the last 20 years, despite two decades of discussion and consultations. The economic benefits are clear. The economy and transport Minister has previously recognised this, and I quote him here:

'over the 60-year appraisal period, there is more than £2 of benefit for each pound spent on the scheme, without touching on the wider economic benefits likely to flow from the scheme, such as a stronger perception of Wales as a place to invest, which cannot be captured.'

I couldn't sum that up better myself, Presiding Officer, and, of course, the planning inspector also said that for every £1 invested it would pay back £1.56 to the nation. Meanwhile, as it goes on now, traffic levels are increasing and we're failing to build an infrastructure and road network that would attract inward investment. The economic impact of not proceeding has been estimated as being £134 million a year to Cardiff and £44 million a year to Newport.

I have real concerns and questions in regard to the environmental impact of the Government's own proposals, but it was incredibly important that the public inquiry heard stakeholders' views, examined the alternative proposals being put forward and examined, in detail, the environmental consequences being raised. It was my view and the view from these benches that the public inquiry outcome, having examined and balanced all the evidence, should be respected.

To be clear, Presiding Officer, we on these benches are calling for the Welsh Government to accept the recommendations of the public inspector and urgently build the M4 relief road. Presiding Officer, I will end with a quote from the words of the Welsh Government's own economy and transport Minister, who said

'the existing infrastructure on the M4 around Newport is not fit for purpose....Piecemeal and useful improvements have been undertaken over time, which will improve the position...but they've only postponed the issue. This piece of infrastructure needs a major, long-term upgrade.'

I agree with him.

Rhun ap Iorwerth to move amendment 6.

Amendment 6—Rhun ap Iorwerth

Add as new point at end of motion:

Calls on the Welsh Government to ensure that any new proposal is part of a Wales-wide package of infrastructure investment.

Amendment 6 moved.

Diolch. Let me tell you two contrasting stories. One is actual, one is a portrayal of what might have been. First, then, in 2011, Welsh Government commits to pursuing the so-called black route to the south of Newport. In 2019, eight years later, eight years of putting all eggs in one unsustainable basket, and Welsh Government is forced to admit the project is unsustainable financially and environmentally. The M4 remains overburdened and congested, and no alternatives are in the pipeline.

Alternatively, 2011, Welsh Government realises this is the twenty-first century, not the twentieth, that road resilience must be improved, yes, but in conjunction with major investment in public transport and modal shift. In 2019, eight years later, a major road improvement programme is well under way to take the strain off the M4, and the population of Newport and around are already enjoying the early fruits of investment in low-carbon mass public transport, as promised when Newport was identified as a pathfinder for transport innovation.

Now, I said that second version was very much imagined, but it needn't be now, if we change the dates and start the clock from now. We have waited and wasted eight years, and the electorate will make their judgment in future elections, no doubt, about this Labour Government's missed opportunities, but we have to get moving now.

Here's something else that may have happened in that second scenario: Welsh Government, through a national infrastructure commission, was able to develop those Newport and south-east road and public transport innovations as part of a new Wales-wide transport infrastructure strategy. Wrexham and the north-east, Swansea, Cardiff and the Valleys saw public transport plans accelerated due to Newport's experience. Confidence gained from seeing Newport's response to the new public transport offer, which took traffic off the M4, of course, led to new thinking on developing and reinstating new transport links like the west coast rail connection.

All of this, I truly believe, is possible, and would have been possible. What we have to do, though, now is to make sure that 2019 is the starting point for that kind of new approach to south-east and Wales-wide transport planning. 

Now, I mentioned the national infrastructure commission, and the Minister will have heard me previously ask, 'Why set up a new commission to look at the Newport M4 issue? Haven't we got a vehicle in the relatively new national infrastructure commission that should be there to do just that?' And, okay, the national commission isn't exactly what we in Plaid Cymru called for—not as strong—but we welcomed it as a step in the right direction at least, and wouldn't giving it this project, this high-profile task of responding to the M4 decision, be exactly what's needed to let it grow in stature and grow in confidence? And, at the same time, isn't having a commission just for the M4 issue exactly what we don't want if we're serious about Wales-wide transport developments? Look at point 4 in the Government's motion, noting

'Welsh Government’s commitment to developing and funding sustainable and effective solutions to congestion issues as part of an integrated, multi-modal and low carbon transport system.'

Now, I'd like to think that, by that, the Government means a Wales-wide transport system, in much the same way as we're calling in our amendment for a commitment to a Wales-wide package of infrastructure investment. Maybe the Minister can confirm that. Putting the task in the hands of the national infrastructure commission would guarantee that wider context—yes, addressing the issue at hand around Newport as a priority, but seeing how it could all dovetail together, perhaps as I envisaged in my alternative timeline.

So, what are the solutions? I don't have the advantage of being in Government. The Government has missed the opportunity of the last eight years. They are in the privileged position of being able to plan from now on. But as the Government's commission starts its work, we in Plaid Cymru will be doing our own work, speaking to stakeholders locally, speaking to transport experts and other economic experts, to look for alternative proposals. I hope that the Minister will be happy for that work to be presented to the commission to be considered. We're starting on that work immediately.

And there are opportunities for us now. There are political elements to what needs to happen next. We need certainty that borrowing and spending powers will still be open to the Government. There’s no justification for allowing the UK Government to control what should be our priorities here in Wales. I hope to hear the Minister agreeing with that. I know that the Welsh Government has been to blame for those arrangements, but we now have to see the Government here in Wales fighting to keep those borrowing powers. And in answering the problem of the south-east and Newport, which is a priority, we need to make sure that the whole of Wales benefits.

The issue around the Brynglas tunnels is a Welsh problem, not a Newport one, as it's often portrayed. However, I think, today, it's important for me to concentrate my remarks on what it means for Newport.

I know that I'm in a privileged position. I've been put in this Chamber by the people of Newport West to represent my home city—the place where I was born, brought up and live. For the purposes of today's debate, it gives me a perspective of what living in a city with a motorway running right through it is like. It doesn't make me a transport expert, but it does give me an understanding of the issues that people who live in Newport face on a daily basis.

The M4, which bisects Newport, is the most heavily used road in Wales. It's part of the trans-European road network and is critical to the Welsh economy. The road provides access to industry, ports, airports, and is crucial for tourism. It's the main gateway to England and to the rest of Europe. In his report, the inspector describes the M4 as the most important road in Wales. The Newport stretch of the M4 does not meet modern demands. The report notes that there is, and I quote,

'clear evidence that the M4 is burdened by an abnormally high number of non-recorded and unpredictable incidents which block or obstruct the motorway throughput causing delay, frustration, economic harm, pollution, inconvenience, negative perceptions of the area and diversion onto unsuitable' roads in urban Newport. In the last few weeks alone we've seen prestigious events hosted in Cardiff. This is something that we should all be proud of and eager to attract. However, everyone who lives in Newport can look down at the motorway and see the congestion this causes—not congestion simply caused by residents of Newport. Even the smallest bump, let alone anything more, can take an age to clear. This has been heightened since the tolls have been removed. Every time there's an accident or severe congestion at Brynglas tunnels, motorway traffic is pushed onto local roads. This creates gridlock, choking the city and taking toxic fumes closer to homes and schools.

I grew up in an area that suffers gravely from air pollution caused by the M4. There are four schools a stone's throw away. Children walk alongside the motorway and over the bridges to reach their schools, breathing in the air pollution caused by the regular idling traffic. This is exacerbated by the topography of the area, which means that toxins from the motorway cannot disperse easily.

Today's debate gives me another opportunity to be clear in what I expect from the commission. I appreciate it was a difficult decision, and I respect the objections of ecologists. However, as I said in response to the First Minister's statement, we must not go back to square one. I will be there every step of the way, scrutinising and ensuring the views of people who live in Newport are uppermost in the commission's work. It's crucial that the money that was put aside must be spent on solutions for exactly that: to tackle this specific issue around Newport. The money must not be frittered away on projects across the country. Our city must not be strangled by congestion.

Ideas such as the closures of junctions on the Newport stretch of the M4 will not be an answer. Any closure of an M4 junction will only make life more difficult for my constituents and those in Caerphilly, Torfaen and Risca, amongst others. Significantly improved public transport in the Newport area would be welcome, yet we need radical and substantive changes. While I would urge the commission to look at new ways that can improve our transport system, both on the motorway and within Newport and the surrounding area, our city can not just be a test bed. We need to see a tangible and sustainable difference. We've been waiting for decades for a solution to a road that is not fit for purpose.

The inspector's report detailed the dangers of an M4 relief road not going ahead for Newport and the surrounding area. That's why I'll today abstain on amendment 4. I'm keen to meet with the commissioner and to reflect my constituents' views and ideas. Now that a decision has been made, the Government must be determined that things can be done in the here and now. The focus must not be lost. The challenge is great.

The case for a relief road for the M4 around Newport remains strong, Minister. First proposed way back in 1991, it tackled the problem of congestion that has never been properly addressed. The M4 is Wales's strategic gateway to the rest of the UK and Europe, but we are serviced by substandard dual carriageway that fails to meet modern motorway standards. In the last two years this stretch of road has been forced to close over 100 times; 100,000-plus vehicles travel on the M4 around Newport every day. This increases when major events such as concerts and rugby, football and cricket matches take place, and will do so again when the new convention centre at the Celtic Manor Resort is completed. Constrained by the oldest motorway tunnels in the United Kingdom, this stretch of road causes increased vehicle emissions, poor air quality and accidents around Newport.

The National Assembly's own planning inspector spent more than a year considering the case for a new M4 route south of Newport. Minister, there are six junctions that actually go towards Newport, around Newport, and the motorway is not a motorway—it's like a zig-zag around it. It's a slow motorway; it's a car park around it. The inspector gave the proposal his overwhelming backing. In his report, he details the economic, environmental and health benefits of the project. Yet, his recommendation was rejected by the First Minister. This decision was met with dismay, anger and frustration by industry and business groups in Wales. The Confederation of British Industry said, and their quote is:

'This is a dark day for the Welsh economy…Congestion and road pollution around Newport can only increase. Economic growth will be stifled, confidence in the region will weaken and the cost of an eventual relief road will rise'.

The Freight Transport Association said, in their quote:

'The M4 is a vital stretch of infrastructure with international economic importance, yet it is blighted by heavy congestion'.

Another quote from them is:

'It is frustrating that the opportunity to deliver this essential investment into South Wales’ infrastructure has been missed.'

The situation can only get worse. The Welsh Government predicts severe operational problems on congestion around Newport by 2020. The removal of the Severn bridge tolls, also set to inject over £100 million of economic activities into Wales, has increased congestion. Projection by the Department for Transport shows that traffic along the M4 is set to increase by nearly 38 per cent over the next 30 years. Failure to act is simply not an option, Minister. We need to look again at the alternatives to the black route.

One option considered was to improve the existing A48 by upgrading the present junction on the route that impedes the free flow of traffic. This would entail new bridges and underpasses. The cost of this option was a great deal less than the black route. Could we not look again at using a combination of the A48 southern distributor road and the former steelworks road to create a high-standard dual carriageway that would be called the blue route?

Much of the traffic is caused by commuters heading to or from work. The south Wales metro proposal is an ambitious scheme to get more commuters on our railways, but it is a long-term scheme that will take 10 to 15 years to deliver. We need options for rail now. We need a direct link between Newport and Ebbw Vale, Minister. We need to provide more communities, such as Magor and Undy, with railway stations.

I know that the commission set up by the Welsh Government will report on its interim findings with recommendations for immediate practical interventions within the six months of its formation. I urge the Minister to stick to his timetable. The people of south-east Wales have waited long enough for the problem of congestion on the M4 to be addressed. Now is the time. Minister, it was music to the ears when you said it's time to change. How, when and which end of Newport? And I’m sure you will do your best to make sure that congestion is eased, the environmental side is covered and the lesson has been learned over the last eight or nine years of wasting time and money in the area. Thank you.

I understand the quasi-judicial hoops that the Welsh Government had to jump through in order to arrive at its decision, which would have made it very difficult to have a plan B up its sleeve, because that would have been seen as prejudicing the decision that the First Minister has made. So, I disagree with Rhun ap Iorwerth that we, somehow, have to convert this whole problem into a new transport system for Wales. We do need, obviously, a refreshed transport system for Wales, but we do need to focus on the here and now in relation to the congestion we have around Newport. And I listened very carefully to the problems that Jayne Bryant described, and I’ve experienced them myself. I wouldn’t want to live just near that motorway—

Thank you very much for giving way. I don't think I was suggesting that we turn what we had before into a Wales-wide programme. It's a matter of developing an answer to the Newport problem as a priority, as I made clear, alongside now, and as part of, a new, innovative Wales-wide transport strategy.

Okay. But in the future we will have 5G infrastructure that will enable us to plan the minutiae of thousands of daily journeys and deploy the public transport system to meet that demand. But we are some way off that for now. So, we absolutely have to get on with the issues that will relieve the congestion today.

So, I'd like to press the Government on the timelines for the things that the Minister announced on 5 June, which are expediting the recovery of vehicles in an area where there are problems on that road, the date for providing an additional traffic officer patrol with extended hours, the live journey time information on the roadside signs—that sounds a little bit more difficult to provide immediately—and a driver behaviour campaign to reduce these incidents that cause the traffic officers to have to be deployed in additional numbers.

We can use the road space differently by, in certain places, having road space designated for buses and those who have more than one passenger in the car. But we really do need to find alternatives to the commuter—mainly commuter— congestion problem. So, I do hope the South East Wales Transport Commission is going to consider, for example, making bus travel in and around Newport free to entice people out of their cars and onto existing buses. We know that the lifting of the tolls on the bridge has led to a 20 per cent spike in traffic on the M4; no doubt this was a deliberate ploy by the current Secretary of State for Wales to try and gain the relief road decision, but let's turn the table on that: what about reintroducing tolls at busy times on the stretch of the M4 where the most difficulties are being experienced? 

So, looking at the south Wales metro electrification projects, we hope we're going to see a sea change in terms of frequency and capacity on those north-south Valleys lines into Cardiff, but this is a north-south affair; the east-west rail services are not devolved, they're currently run by GWR. So, what discussions is the Welsh Government having with (a) the UK Government, (b) Network Rail and (c) GWR on using the four lines between Cardiff and Newport and beyond more effectively? We only need two to be dedicated to the long-distance express services. Why are the other two lines not available for suburban trains?

Last month, I went on a magical mystery tour on an electric bus, which is manufactured by Alexander Dennis in Scarborough, and I'm confident that Cardiff council is now going to buy some of them—or, if not these ones, other electric buses—to deploy in parts of Cardiff. So, that's all good stuff, but what about some of these electric buses around Newport as well? Because they are much more comfortable than the buses that are currently circulating—the dirty buses that are currently circulating—you can charge your phone on them, and it seems to me very much the way in which things are going. 

But I also need to point out that the 12 million trips taken by bike in Cardiff last year mean that there's over 11,000 cars that are not on the road that would have been otherwise. So, I think that there are many things that we can do, and I agree absolutely with Jayne Bryant that Cardiff council has a duty and a responsibility to ensure that there are different ways of getting to these large-scale events taking place in Cardiff, and that means putting in things to actually make it less advantageous for people to travel into Cardiff by car when there are other modes of transport available, so long as we can marshal them. 

As regional Member for South Wales East, I am acutely aware of the need to address the congestion issues around Newport. Now that the relief road has been abandoned, which we have welcomed, we need to look at alternative ways of addressing those specific issues, alongside upgrading our transport infrastructure to make it fit for us as a twenty-first century European nation. Yes, it is regrettable that there was no plan B put forward by the Government, but there's little traction in going over old ground on that point—far better to look to the future. Whatever is done next must be based on clear criteria and informed by the declaration of a climate emergency by this nation. Future plans should also uphold the principles of the future generations Act. As the commissioner herself has said, historically, in cases such as these, it has not been uncommon for the economic benefits of proposals to be given precedence, but this is one of the reasons why legislation was needed to redress the balance. So, let's make good use of that Act. 

The black route would have failed on these criteria, since it would have crossed four sites of environmental and scientific importance. It would have threatened the habitat of the common crane, which has recently nested in the Gwent levels for the first time since the seventeenth century, and would have released over 500,000 tonnes of carbon dioxide into the atmosphere. To add to this, it would have obviously led to a significant increase in vehicles on the roads, at a time when we want to achieve a reduction in transport emissions.

So, a solution that only focuses on facilitating more car usage is plainly not the answer. We in Plaid believe that a hybrid strategy should be pursued, involving multimodal transport options, with a view to addressing the needs of people all over Wales. This hybrid strategy could combine innovative ideas such as smart motorways, where we use technology to influence the flow of traffic; allocated lanes for multi-occupancy vehicles, such as buses, which can also be used as a car-pool lane; we also need to consider smarter use of our current infrastructure in the area. Professor Mark Barry has suggested, for example, flexible working patterns to help alleviate congestion during traditional rush-hour periods. After all, as we've heard a number of times in this Chamber before, it is only 10 per cent of the daily traffic on the route in question that causes the real problem. Freight consolidation—moving freight to rail, or moving freight during the quiet periods—can also provide some respite during this period of congestion. As we raised in our own debate two weeks ago, lessons can be learned from the Scottish example, where the Scottish Government pays grants to companies who decide to transport freight via train, because removing freight from roads reduces not only congestion, but also road traffic accidents.

Now, there are so many innovative ideas being put forward by Members of all parties in this debate, and that is the thing that we should be focusing on now; we should be focusing on the future. Over the coming weeks, Plaid Cymru will be setting up a working group to look at solutions to this issue and, as my colleague, Rhun, has already indicated, we would welcome the opportunity to present those findings in due course. Now, it's clear from contributions across the Chamber that the situation cannot be allowed to just get worse—for the good of the people of Newport, but people all over Wales. We have to work together on this. Diolch.

Way back in distant time, when I was in another place, in another Chamber, back in 2015, I was chairing the Environmental Audit Committee in Westminster, and we looked at the issue of Heathrow Airport. And on that committee were a range of views—it was a 17-strong committee—from ultra climate sceptics through to ultra ecologists and environmentalists. But we came to an interesting conclusion on the Government's proposals then on Heathrow, which was that, yes, Heathrow could proceed, but only with the most unprecedented massive modal shift—not only on new passengers travelling to Heathrow but on existing passengers, and not just around Heathrow, but in that area of greater western London—shifting people out of their cars, out of their reliance on cars, to avoid the issues of air pollution, of air quality, of climate warming, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. So, yes, you can go ahead, it's an opportunity, but you have to do this on a scale that has never been seen before. It's curious, now, that the Government is actually coming forward to that way of thinking up there, three years later.

What relevance does this have here? Jayne is absolutely right in her contribution today that the immediate focus of the work of the Ministers has got to be on Newport itself—what can be done in the immediate future. And the statement of the Minister in making the decision on this made it clear that immediate solutions need to be found in terms of traffic management, in terms of enforcement and finding ways to deal with the right here and now. But the taskforce itself, going forward, should indeed be focused on Newport, on the greater Newport area. And the terms of reference have been set out.

But there is bigger issue here, and I don't think think we ought to conflate the two. That's what I would say to Rhun at this moment in time. There is a bigger issue, without a doubt. This is a Wales-wide issue. What is happening in Newport, around the Brynglas tunnels, around that side of Wales at the moment, is something that we're going to see more and more. We're seeing it now, everywhere between Pont Abraham and Port Talbot. That's where the massive growth in congestion is going to be—the next one. We're going to find gridlock down there if we don't actually respond in a very insightful way to those challenges. It's also going to be in north Wales; it's going to be every part of Wales. Now, that produces—if you pose that as the question, we start to come up with different solutions. I have to say that they are solutions that do provide challenges, but great economic opportunities as well, if we choose to go with them.

So, first of all, this is a Wales-wide issue—Jayne made that point very much. The M4 is creaking along its length; many other parts of our road network are. So, is the solution to actually build more and more and more and more and more roads, or is the solution to actually focus on how we make that massive, unprecedented modal shift? I'm not talking about sandal-wearing, hippy-dippy, 'Wouldn't it be nice if we all travelled by bike?', although I do love travelling on my bike. 

We had a meeting of the active travel group the other day over in the Senedd. One of the chaps there from Public Health Wales did an interesting presentation. He said that if you put a bowl of fruit out in front of people at one of these receptions that we often go to around here—just a bowl of fruit with apples and whatever—most people won't choose them at all. If, however, you slice the apples up there and make it easier for people to eat them, they'll disappear just like that. 

There's something here that's as important about the behavioural sciences as it is about technological advances and changes. How do we make it so easy, so attractive to people, that they pick that apple up and eat it? How do we cut and slice our public transport, our modal shift offer, so it is easy? Now, some of those are part of that bigger-picture thinking, and we do need to do that now as well as the immediate solutions within Newport and the Brynglas tunnels.

So, I'll pitch some of them in here, for what it's worth. Along the M4 corridor—the whole of the M4 corridor, not just the Brynglas tunnels—why wouldn't we want to be one of the first ones that actually looks at moving to light freight being moved by rail on a huge scale, where you actually load the stuff onto pallets? So, we'd take the Amazon deliveries from Swansea and where they're being distributed and we'd put the right mechanisms in place so that we can shift white vans—other colours are available, I understand—off that network. We release capacity.

Why don't we look at places along the entire M4 and out into Avon and Bristol as well, where you have not park and ride per se, but car-sharing park and ride, so that people who are going into Cardiff, into Newport, from Bridgend, using those tunnels every day, are actually making the active choice, the easy-apple choice—the cut and sliced one that you can just pop in your mouth—to sit in the car with somebody else and chat as they go, or, as I do, to get on the train and work as you do it? How do we get those easy choices?

Gosh, there was more I was going to say, but I've run out of time already. But that's, I think, where our thinking now needs to be. Immediately, we've got to deal with the Newport Brynglas tunnel, but are we willing to do something as ambitious as the future generations commissioner has said, and shift our funding into the areas where we can influence that modal shift—behavioural sciences as well as transport innovation? That's our challenge in Wales, but it's an opportunity as well, and we can create jobs in doing that.

The Labour Party manifesto promised to build a relief road for the M4. Now, First Minister, to adopt your language from earlier, you have betrayed that commitment. [Interruption.] Yes, that's what you said earlier, wasn't it—'betrayed'? That is what you have done. It was perhaps the most important, largest spending and most significant infrastructure project ever seen in Wales—

On a point of order—

No, you don't need to at this point—you're to be called later on in the debate. Carry on, Mark Reckless.

I'm not sure if you were here, Alun, but it was the First Minister's language to me earlier at First Minister's questions, and it is the appropriate language for what you have done in respect of your commitment for that absolutely crucial project in your manifesto. Everything you put out now is cover for that—the cost-benefit ratio over two for that. Now, we'll look at other projects. You've got your commission; we'll see how long that takes to report. But the fact is that you had an M4 relief road recommended by the inspector that would give very clear cost-benefit return—whether that is the case for substantive spending commitments in respect of this commission remains to be seen. No doubt, there are some less costly projects that are sensible to do, like the free rescue—why you haven't done that before, I'm not clear.

I don't get this idea that they shouldn't have been looking at alternatives—that it would be prejudicial to have contingency plans for if the inspector didn't approve it or if they decided against the inspector's decision. Surely, a sensible Government would have contingency plans. I don't accept the idea that it would make the decision challengeable in law if anyone in Government was thinking, 'What do we do if this isn't agreed?' It's just a perfectly sensible planning arrangement.

We have our own amendments—amendments 1 and 5—that David's explained the purpose of. Amendment 6 we will be opposing. I was listening to Delyth Jewell, but in amendment 6 Plaid Cymru say, instead of what Labour are proposing to cover their own embarrassment at the betrayal of that manifesto commitment, which is at least to try and focus the spending on Newport and south-east Wales, those who suffer most from that failure and that broken promise—Plaid instead want to spend the money generally across Wales. Now, that speaks volumes about the relative priority Plaid Cymru give to Newport and south-east Wales, and we will be opposing that amendment. I'll give way. 

And if you give way, you would recognise that I used the term 'priority' in relation to Newport and addressing the problems there. 

But a lower priority than even the Labour Government—which has breached its manifesto commitment—intends to give to it. 

I was astonished by Jenny Rathbone's contribution. She said there'd been a 20 per cent spike in traffic—that's a higher number than I've seen from other studies of this—and she describes scrapping the tolls as a deliberate ploy by the Secretary of State for Wales in order to make the Welsh Government build this M4 relief road. I'd like to, as I did before, give some credit to the Secretary of State, because he has been very, very clear on building this relief road. And in this motion today I note that the Conservative group here also says that the recommendation of the independent public inspector should be accepted—

'and build the M4 relief road.'

That is a very, very clear statement. Some members of the group have made other comments publicly; I note Nick Ramsay isn't in his seat. We'll see whether he's here for the vote later. But I do appreciate the very clear commitment, both from the Conservative group and from the Secretary of State, to doing that. It's almost as clear as the commitment that Labour gave in their manifesto, but which they have now, I'm very, very afraid to say, broken. The Minister said earlier that it doesn't matter that all the money that's been spent on the wasted costs—or some perhaps he'll manage to make sure aren't wasted, but I doubt they'll all be non-wasted—he says it will not waste as much money as they are on HS2. I'm not quite sure if that's a sufficient recommendation.

Can we also just have clarity on these 50 mph limits? I heard from your colleague Lesley Griffiths last week when I asked about this. Why were these 50 mph limits at six sites about air pollution being made permanent? Had the temporary ones been considered, and did the evidence support that? And she told me the evidence was mixed and inconclusive. So, why are these limits being made permanent? It's so important in terms of the Brynglas tunnels, the M4, what's happening with congestion, that people know that the measures being taken are those under best advice to try and limit and mitigate that congestion, when the Government has gone back on its promise to build this relief road. Are they there to do that, or are they instead there for the pollution reasons discussed last week by your colleague? Thank you.     

Llywydd, as we've heard before when we've discussed these matters, I think there is wide agreement on the pressing and urgent nature of the problems on the M4 corridor around Newport, though there are different suggestions as to how they are best addressed, with very strong views on both sides of the equation as to whether the M4 relief road should have been built or not. That is reflected in the e-mails I've received as a local representative, and my own view very strongly is that the environmental as well as the cost factors support the decision that the First Minister has made. We've declared a climate emergency, and I believe we have to show new thinking. I believe the M4 relief road would have been yesterday's solution to the problems of today and tomorrow, and there are better ways. The precious Gwent levels, which are a wonderful resource for local people and the whole of Wales, have to be protected. The site of special scientific interest has to be protected, and the quality of life that that area brings to local people has to be protected. 

We have to move away from the predict and provide model, Llywydd, where there's an estimate of future traffic growth and then new roads are built to provide for those estimates. We have to have an integrated transport solution, which we've been very poor at in the UK, but we need to become much better at, and much better at very quickly. I very much welcome the First Minister's assurance that the £1 billion or so borrowing ability is for the M4 corridor around Newport where the problems are, and where local people suffer the consequences of congestion on that section of motorway and local roads, the air pollution and the noise on a daily basis. The money must be spent to significantly reduce and address those problems.

In terms of the suggestions that we've heard again today, Llywydd, that the so-called blue route is an answer to these problems, I would totally refute and reject, and I wonder if those making those suggestions have ever driven on that road, with its roundabouts, its traffic lights and its junctions. If they did so, they would know that that route goes through the heart of many communities with many thousands of people living there, and they do not want to be subjected to the higher volume of traffic, the higher speed of traffic, that would bring those associated problems of air pollution and noise to those communities. It's also highly impractical, given those roundabouts, traffic lights and junctions. You know, really, everybody should recognise that reality.

Llywydd, when we're talking about integrated transport, there are, I believe, some pretty obvious ways forward that have been developed by local people and others over a period of time. One of those is the proposal for a new station at Magor, a walkway station, which is awaiting, hopefully, Welsh Government funding for the next stage of the UK Government's new stations process to take it on to the next level. The long-desired passenger train link between Newport and Ebbw Vale is another good example, and east of Newport, there is dire overcrowding on services to Bristol and other routes. We need much more UK Government investment to improve capacity and we need phase 3 of the metro to address those east-of-Newport issues.

In terms of early action, Llywydd, I would repeat the call that Jenny Rathbone made that we have a clear timeline for that new enhanced service to deal with accidents on the M4, where, for example, a space could be found for a recovery service to remove vehicles to. Because those unplanned problems are hugely difficult in terms of the chaos that they create on the M4 and indeed on local roads. To some extent, people can change their travel habits for what people would term the usual congestion, but, obviously, when it comes to accidents, that isn't the case. Many of them are relatively minor accidents, you know, and they could be cleared quite quickly with an enhanced service.

The other thing I would mention is the school run, which again I think is very significant for local congestion. We could have school buses with much greater availability to deal with those issues. We could also have a much stronger push on active travel around the school run and, indeed, in general. I mentioned, just last week, in the Assembly that one of my local primary schools had achieved a 40 per cent increase in active travel—scooting, walking and cycling—to the school in just a one-year period. I believe this does show what's possible, Llywydd, with the right energy and the right imagination.  

It seems remarkable and contradictory that it's only a few weeks since this place backed calls to declare a climate emergency, the first parliament in the world to do so, and yet some Members here are calling for the building of a new major road for economic reasons. Regardless of how you voted in the climate change emergency debate, you can't deny that building a road of this size would cause a huge amount of environmental damage and encourage increased car use, which, whether powered by electricity or fossil fuel, will increase pollution. I understand that congestion itself increases pollution, but this relief road would not stay congestion-free for long, and then what? Build another road and another after that. Where does it end? 

It is not that there are too few roads in Wales. The problem is that we've got too many car journeys in some places at some times. We all accept that congestion increases year on year. But the road network isn't shrinking, it's the increasing reliance on car use that's causing the issues. It isn't really rocket science to figure out what's causing the problem. It does, however, take some new thinking in order to solve the problem. I'm sorry, but there are surely no economic benefits that justify the permanent loss of important environmental areas, the continued march towards tarmacking over Wales and ruining the country for future generations. Anyone calling for this road to be built needs to tell the Welsh public what level of economic benefit they consider enough to condemn our future generations to live in a pollution-ridden concrete and tarmac jungle where they can't breathe the air and can't see any trees or hear birds sing.

I don't doubt that this Government can be doing much more to reduce congestion, whether that's through investment in public transport, ensuring the proper roll-out of superfast digital connections, incentivising companies to adopt staggered operating times and so on, but the failure to do that thus far doesn't justify calls to take the unimaginative step to build more major roads. When roads are built to ease congestion, for a short while it does work, but planners take their foot off the gas in exploring other options to deal with congestion. Refusing to build more roads that cost too much, both financially and environmentally, means that more sensible and sustainable options will have to be found, and there's a lot of money available to explore the more sensible options that will help reduce our carbon footprint and that don't require the permanent tearing up of our beautiful land.

It's time to halt the squandering of our country's landscape and our natural environment, the destruction of our wildlife and the pollution of our air from huge construction projects when the problems could be solved in other ways. So, I do support the Welsh Government's recent decision to can the M4 relief road. There are some here, though, who, if they have their way would see a road built that has little justification and would cause irreparable damage to the environment of Wales just to score a few political points. I hope the Welsh Government will now take a more sensible approach to road building.

On a final note, there's a Native American saying that only when the last river has been poisoned and the last tree has been felled will people realise that you can't eat money. So, please think on before you start talking about building extra roads. Thank you.

I hope and I think that this afternoon marks a debate on the M4 where we've actually been debating solutions to it and not simply rehearsing arguments on whether we would support either the black route or the blue route. If I think back to the debates that I've participated in and listened to in this place over the last decade or so, they've basically been debates not on the issues facing the M4 corridor transport in south-east Wales but debates on the black route, and I think those debates have been addressing the wrong issues. I agree with those in this debate—I agree with Jayne Bryant and with Huw Irranca-Davies, who've said that the issues that we have are certainly focused on and in and around Newport, but the solutions have to be focused in and around Newport and elsewhere. And certainly when I look at some of these issues it is clear to me that it is insufficient simply to point to the M4 itself, point at the traffic jams, and say, 'That is the problem.' I believe the problem goes further than that.

I understand and I do agree that the current M4 is no longer fit for purpose, but then again neither is the rail infrastructure in the area either, and neither is the trunk road network and neither is the public transport system serving communities in the south-east or enabling people to move through the area as part of a longer journey. So, this certainly requires addressing these particular issues but in a far wider and bigger way. So, I do welcome the announcement of the First Minister on the establishment of the commission to look at a wider and bigger response, and I hope that the Minister, in responding to the debate today, can give us further information on the timetable and the budget available to this commission. I did notice in his earlier opening remarks that he said that the £1.4 billion would not be available to the commission, but I think we do need to understand how much money is available to the commission, and we also need to understand what the timescale is that he seeks to provide answers in.

But when we look at where we've been over the last few years, we do have a comprehensive analysis of the capacity of not only the local and regional motorway, trunk and network system but also the capacity of the rail network, and I have, Presiding Officer, some real concerns about the capacity of the rail network to fulfil the role that many people have seen for it in providing an alternative to road transport. And I've heard what's been said this afternoon, but I am not convinced we have the rail network in place in this part of the world that's able to deliver on the ambitions and the visions that have been outlined today and at other times. I hope, Minister, that you will be able to persuade Lord Burns to speak to Keith Williams about the importance and urgency of the devolution of rail infrastructure investment, and investment in signals, in stations, and to ensure that we have the services that we require on the infrastructure that we need. And, in doing so, I hope we'll also set some very clear objectives in solving these problems and putting in place alternative transport networks.

One of the reasons I opposed the black route was certainly because of the extraordinary environmental and ecological damage it would've done, but for what benefit? When I looked at those economic heat maps and I saw the impact on Blaenau Gwent, it made my blood run cold because we were going to spend £1.4 billion on a road that would have no impact at all on the economy and the poverty in one of the poorest parts of Wales. And why would we do that? When I look at the issues, and when I look at the solutions that the commission will be delivering and developing, I will be looking at the economic impact on the whole region and not simply looking at a very narrow impact along the M4 corridor in Cardiff, Newport and Bristol. I believe that if we are making investments of this sort, then it has to have a much wider and broader economic impact.

And a final point I'd wish to make in this debate today is that on regional connectivity and the integration of public transport services. We are focused in this debate, and we focus all too often in our debates, on the hard infrastructure, on the investment in the railway line or a road, or wherever it happens to be. But I want to see us invest as well in the services that will enable people to make public transport a realistic choice in exactly the way that Huw Irranca-Davies described earlier. All too often in Blaenau Gwent we are seeing fewer bus services and not more bus services. We are not seeing the same urgency in investment in additional rail services that other parts of the Valleys networks are seeing. And consequently, many of the people who I represent listen to speeches on active travel and making these choices with a sense of incredulity and disbelief because we simply don't have those services available to us.

So, I hope that there will be the investment that we need in the infrastructure, which will allow a far bigger answer and a better answer to the questions we face. But I hope, also, that in making the investments in the infrastructure, we will also make investments in bus services, make investments in rail services, and also, Minister, take advantage of the legislation that you're currently considering in terms of the regulation of public transport to ensure that we do have a south-eastern travel authority or executive established by statute to manage the integration of public transport services.

People will know that I disagreed with the abolition of the South East Wales Transport Alliance when it took place at the time, and I think since then we've seen a real diminution in the connectivity of transport services serving the communities of south-east Wales. And if we are to achieve the ambitions that I agree with and that we've shared this afternoon, then we need the management of those transport services as well as wishing for them. Thank you.

I think it was an important step for the Government to bring forward this debate today. As has been pointed out any number of times in the last two weeks, this question of how to resolve the M4 problem has dogged every political party and every tier of Government for decades. Clearly, we now need to build a solution that can win the support of most people in the Chamber and most people across Wales.

There are three tests I think such an approach will need to pass before we can restore full credibility to this process, and these are three tests we need to consider if we are to find an answer that commands a majority support and which is deliverable. Number one, the Brexit test; number two, seeing this as a Wales problem, not a Newport problem; and finally, number three, dealing with the world as we find it today not as we would wish it to be.

I want to start with the last point first because it speaks to the concerns of employees and employers alike in my constituency and in neighbouring boroughs who are, like me, regularly caught up in hellish traffic on, or around, the M4. The First Minister has said that even if he had approved the black route, no immediate relief would have been forthcoming for perhaps five years. The point is well made, but it also underlines the need for changes that can make a lasting and, where possible, rapid impact on the journeys of people who need to use this road. And that is what I mean by dealing with the world as it is today, not as we would like it to be. People do need to use this road day in, day out, because there are no alternatives for thousands of people who are making a living and seeking to have a family life. The personal impact of surrendering hours at a time to Wales's most inefficient infrastructure problem isn't just economic, it has an impact on mental health, well-being and family time, as well. This is the test for the new commission: to deliver solutions that, yes, speak to environmental concerns, but also deliver change quickly, change that recognises the real-life decisions and the lack of options facing people using this route. We would all like to see a clean, green, multi-modal answer to Wales's transport problems, but that is decades of work, not five years. So, what is the immediate answer?

Secondly, it has been far too easy for people to dismiss the urgent need to reduce congestion in this area as a Newport problem, or if they're being very generous, a Gwent problem. I think this is a deeply unhealthy way to approach the debate because fundamentally, as our most vital transport artery with the rest of the world, this is a Welsh problem, not a Newport problem. You'll have heard the statistics a thousand times, so I won't repeat them now. The importance of this route to our country's economy cannot be overemphasised. But there is another problem with this kind of approach, and that's the precedent it sets. This is the National Assembly for Wales—the whole of Wales. You don't have politicians jumping up and down dismissing the importance of the £135 million Caernarfon to Bontnewydd bypass because it is just a Gwynedd problem, or the tens of millions spent on the Llandeilo bypass because it is just a Carmarthenshire problem, but it has been acceptable for some to dismiss this as a Newport problem and I think that is wrong. It is too easy to lay claim to geographical bias in favour of local political gains, whether that be north-south, east-west or rural-urban, politicians from all parties do it and it is deeply unhelpful. There is a difference between fighting for your patch and pitting communities against one another. People from Newport and Gwent are the ones suffering the most due to the congestion, but that is not the same as looking at this as a regional priority. It is unquestionably a national priority. And to that end, I hope that the National Infrastructure Commission will be heavily involved in the next steps.

Finally, the new proposals must pass the Brexit test. Different sectors in our economy are being stretched in different ways with the prospect of leaving the EU, perhaps even leaving without a deal. This is being felt most acutely already in the automotive sector, where just-in-time deliveries form an essential part of successful operations. The car industry and manufacturing more generally plays a massive role in the economic and social fabric of Torfaen and we've battled for years to make that sustainable against new challenges, both local and global. We cannot afford to allow any more hurdles to be placed in the way of this sector. We need to give comfort to our manufacturers, as well as to our commuters that we are prepared to act to meet these three tests: being innovative, being swift and putting this nation's infrastructure needs above localism and factionalism. Thank you.

The Minister for Economy and Transport to reply to the debate.

Thank you, Llywydd. I am very grateful for everyone's contributions to this debate today, and I'm pleased to note that there is one important fact that we're all in agreement on and that is, of course, that doing nothing cannot be an option. There have been many, many valuable contributions during the course of this debate, and a number of Members have offered up some creative ideas that I will ensure are considered by the commission.

This is a decision, not about going back to square one, Llywydd, it's about a rapid piece of work by an expert commission that will bring forward practical proposals to resolve some of the issues that are faced by the residents of Newport in 2019 and 2020, not many years from now when a road might eventually have been constructed and opened for traffic. I can assure Members that we are grasping the can right now and we will crush it far earlier than the black route would've dealt with it. I can also agree with Members, as Lynne Neagle has just said, that this is a problem that affects an entire region. Of course, it is felt most intensely in Newport, but all Members, regardless of the constituencies or the regions that they represent, should acknowledge that this is a matter of national significance and, therefore, they should not seek to play off different parts of Wales against one another. On that, I am in full agreement.

I'd like to turn to a number of points that were raised. First of all, the question of the BCR and the black route. Yes, the benefit-cost ratio of the black route was favourable, especially in relation to the much derided blue route. However, the cost element was judged to be just too high, especially against a backdrop of austerity and the lack of a CSR, and, of course, the need to deliver vitally important social infrastructure, including hospitals, schools and houses that could have been sacrificed had the black route gone ahead.

On the issue of the 50 mph speed limits along not just the M4 but other trunk roads in Wales, of course, this is to reduce the poison that is being emitted and is being inhaled by human beings. This is a measure that is proven to work. Nitrogen dioxide levels must be reduced—

Will the Member give way?

Absolutely I will.

He says that this measure is proven to work, but it was only last week that his ministerial colleague said the evidence was mixed and inconclusive. Which is it?

No, that is not what the Minister stated whatsoever. Look, surely you must recognise that if you drive a car at 50 mph, your car is producing less nitrogen dioxide than it will do at 80 mph, if people stick to that limit. Now, the challenge that the Minister has highlighted is that some people are not sticking to that limit and, therefore, of course, the results will be mixed. There is no doubt that we have to address this problem. I would ask you to state whether you agree that we should seek to reduce levels of nitrogen dioxide being inhaled by human beings, and if you are in agreement, then surely you must be in agreement on the most proven method of doing so, which is to introduce a lower speed limit.

Can I—?

On the issue of the blue route, which I know the Member has supported in the past—. Of course I'll give way.

I just want to ask a rather tangential but relevant question. We have variable speed limits already on motorways depending on the type of vehicle—different speed limits for vans and lorries to cars. Could electric vehicles travel at faster speeds considering that they don't pollute the atmosphere?

They could indeed travel at different speeds. The point is we don't yet have that many electric cars on the road, and so, in future, of course, yes, they could travel at higher speeds. The other benefit, though, of introducing 50 mph reduced speed limits is that traffic is proven to travel at a more consistent pace, so you don't have the effect of stop-start traffic, which contributes significantly to emissions.

On the issue of the blue route, I really, really should just address the issue of this particular solution that some Members are still embracing. The blue route was roundly trashed by the inspector, and if Members haven't had the opportunity to read the inspector's report, I really would urge them to do so and, in particular, with regard to the blue route pages 457 to 459. It did find, during the course of the inquiry, that the blue route would be inadequate, it would be unsustainable, it would cost around about £1 billion, compared to the £350 million that supporters were promoting, and it would contribute more in terms of emissions—nitrogen dioxide in particular—to those people who are already badly affected by the existing road network. The blue route is simply not an option.

I think we've been around the manifesto question a number of times, not just today, but previous to today. The manifesto that we drew up was, of course, drawn up in the circumstances that were apparent at that moment in time, based on the evidence that was available to us. There are many Members in this Chamber who have changed their position on the black route and the blue route based on the evidence that has been presented by the inspector.

Of course, since 2016, times have changed quite rapidly. We have now, I think, a better grasp and understanding of the climate emergency. I think, also, we have set the bar higher in terms of how we respond to it. We are developing a Welsh transport strategy that will seek to embrace new and emerging technology and respond to the greatest challenge of our time, which is to reduce emissions and to reverse climate change. I think Huw Irranca-Davies summed up brilliantly what the strategy should seek to deliver. It should ensure that people can be more mobile as they wish to be, but not at the expense of our environment and the interests of future generations. I think a number of Members have rightly raised the role that rail has in reducing the reliance on vehicles, and with regard to questions raised by Jenny Rathbone and Alun Davies, I think it's absolutely right that the commission is able to make calls on the UK Government, not just in terms of improvements to our rail infrastructure, but also in terms of service improvements that could reduce the reliance that people have on the motor car and the M4 in particular. For example, the Department for Transport could remove the objection to Grand Union Trains operating express services between Swansea, Cardiff, Bristol and London, again assisting and reducing congestion on the M4. I've been very clear to the commission that it should not fear making those calls of UK Government as well as of Welsh Government.

I can tell Members today that with regard to the—

Will you take an intervention on that matter?

Yes, of course.

I'm grateful to you for your words on that. My point was a distinct one—that we should be seeking the devolution of these matters, not simply calling on the UK Government to take action on these matters. If we're serious about having integrated public transport, then it is only the Welsh Government that has the position to be able to take decisions, both on rail infrastructure and on other areas of infrastructure, that can make integrated public transport a reality.

I'll just move that point on one step further as well and say that it's not just a question of devolution of money and responsibility and powers for rail infrastructure—although that is obviously desperately needed and we put our case to Keith Williams—it's also about having responsibility for the trains that actually operate on the tracks in our country. At the moment, we're in a ridiculous situation where the UK Government is able to be consulted and advise us on services that operate in Wales, and the Wales and borders franchise, and yet, when it comes to services that they're responsible for procuring, which operate on our lines in Wales, we have no say, and that cannot be allowed to continue, because, as has been proven by Grand Union Trains's approach to the UK Government, if we could introduce more services onto the railways that exist in Wales, we could reduce the reliance on cars.

I can tell Members today, regarding the timetable for putting together and inviting the commission to report, that we'll see members appointed—they will be agreed, Llywydd, between me and the chair—before the summer recess. Their work will commence immediately, and I have already met with the chair to discuss the work and the inspector's report, and the assessment and the analysis that has taken place to date. Meanwhile, in response directly to the point raised by Jenny Rathbone, we are taking forward, with immediate effect, measures to reduce congestion on the M4 in the event of incidents and accidents, and contracts are being drawn up at present to get additional patrol services and recovery services onto the road. From the commission, I expect an interim report within six months, but I've been very keen and clear in saying to the chair and to the public that if the commission is able to bring forward viable suggestions that can be delivered in a shorter period of time, or even immediately, then it should do so within the six-month period.

Llywydd, transport is an area where this Welsh Government has bold and ambitious plans for the future: perhaps the best rail franchise agreement in the UK, valued at £5 billion—as I said earlier, an unprecedented investment in active travel; the development of a new Wales transport strategy; and, in all probability, the most radical overhaul of legislation and the most radical overhaul of bus services that will improve lives and connectivity right across the length and breadth of Wales. 

Resolving the congestion issues around the M4 is an important part of those plans, and I can assure Jayne Bryant, with whom I completely sympathise, that the first call for money from the cancellation of the M4 black route will be for the commission for interventions designed to solve that specific problem in and around Newport. I know many Members and parties have already come forward with ideas on how that money can be spent, not just in Newport, not just in the south-east of Wales, but across the length and breadth of Wales. I've been keeping a list of those projects; they amount to more than £3.5 billion of wish list money. That money that was allocated, the original envelope for the M4 relief road of £1 billion, will be used first and foremost to resolve that specific congestion point in Newport. Now, I am happy to facilitate meetings between particularly local Members and the commission, but if any Member in this Chamber has a suggestion for how to solve congestion on that particular part of the M4, then please bring it forward and the commission will gladly receive it. 

I think it's worth saying that, as we saw from the inspector's report, no easy or uncontested answers exist with regard to the congestion that has plagued the M4 around Newport, but we are committed to taking a collaborative approach to finding innovative, affordable and, probably most importantly of all, Llywydd, sustainable solutions in the shortest possible timescales. I do genuinely look forward to working with others to achieve that ambition. 

The proposal is to agree amendment 1. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Object. I will therefore defer voting until voting time.

Voting deferred until voting time.