Questions now from the party spokespeople. The Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Delyth Jewell.

Diolch, Llywydd. Minister, it's been reported that a quarter of rough-sleepers who had a place to stay during the first lockdown are back to sleeping rough. Why has that happened?

Thank you, Delyth. I'm afraid that report on the BBC rather underestimated the scale of the effort that's gone on across Wales. I don't know if you caught a slightly later radio programme on the BBC, where I had the opportunity to put the record straight. What had been done there was a number—which was a spot-check of rough-sleepers in March, of 407—had been taken to be the number of people that had been helped through the pandemic. We did have 101 rough-sleepers at a spot-count again in August back on the streets, and one person is too many, so I'll come on to that in a minute. But actually, we have 3,533 at the last count of people who've been helped, so the scale is rather different to the BBC report. So it's nowhere a quarter, although I will say that any of them, that's a real problem.

I really do want to be able to get across to people in Wales the real scale of what's been achieved in Wales during the pandemic, by everybody who's been working in this sector. We had many more rough-sleepers than we originally thought. We always knew the spot-check was likely to be an underestimate. We always knew it didn't pick up young people or women particularly well, for example, and, as you know, it was always a rough-and-ready way of doing it over two set nights across the UK. So we always knew it was an underestimate. I think we were quite shocked at how much of an underestimate it really was. And also of course, we've picked up all the people who, whilst they're not actually on the streets, are pretty near it—so all the people who were sofa surfing, or sleeping in cars or in other very, very unsuitable places to be. So, it's not just about the absolute sharp end of rough-sleeping, it's about all of those people who are in insecure, unsuitable accommodation where they couldn't be kept safe throughout the pandemic. So, I really do pay tribute to all of the third sector organisations and local authorities, Government officials—absolutely everybody—who've worked their socks off to get as many people in as possible.

We do know that when the immediate restrictions of the lockdown were eased in the summer, people who had been experiencing homelessness before felt the liberation that quite a few of us felt to get out there into the fresh air and so on, and these are people with complex and complicated needs for support. And, so, we knew that there was a draw back onto the streets for people who hadn't yet been in support services for long enough and who perhaps were not in accommodation that was ideal for them. Necessarily, we had to house people with similar problems in particular areas, and that can be counter-productive. So, we do know that those problems exist. They continue to exist. I've never made any secret of the fact that this isn't a solution to the long-term problem.

We have, however, managed to get assertive outreach to every single person in Wales who's rough-sleeping, including the ones who'd fallen out of services temporarily over the summer. It will be really interesting to see what the next count looks like, in terms of who's in services and who isn't. In that same month, for example, in August, where the 101 count occurred, we also had near 1,000 new presentations for homelessness, all of whom were found accommodation, and we also moved on—I can't remember now—many hundreds of people into permanent accommodation out of the temporary. I can supply that figure. It's gone out of my head, just for a moment, but it's 500/600 people.

So, the throughput is really important, and, Delyth, you'll know that we've discussed many times that this is not some sort of linear progression. There's a phase 1 for people presenting as homeless and we need to sort that out for them—the temporary security that they have to be made safe and so on. And then the phase 2, which is to get those people into their permanent secure home—rapid rehousing—with all of the support mechanisms around them. So, this isn't just about walls. This is about the mental health support, substance abuse support, relationship breakdown, fleeing domestic violence—the myriad of problems that people have exacerbated by any amount of time out of permanent accommodation, of course.

So, I'm really glad to have the chance to put that record straight. We have complained to the BBC that they underestimate the problem by doing that and actually disrespect both the people involved in the system and the homeless people themselves. 

Well, thank you for that, Minister. I would join you in paying tribute to the workers in the third sector and local authorities for all the work that they have done with this. And I'm glad that you have put the record straight. You can obviously see where we had got those figures from. But I do agree with the point that you made too that obviously one person going back to living on the streets is one person too many.

With what you've just said, Minister, in terms of the incredibly complex needs that a number of the people that we're talking about will have, and the substantial amount of support that they need, obviously I would agree with that too, but that does make me question why they hadn't been provided with that support when they were housed. Now, I take on board, of course, what you've been saying about the incredibly complex situation that we have been facing, and none of us would underestimate that. But your Government is supposed to have committed to a housing first model, so surely that support should have been something that was taken into account. 

Now, looking at some of the cases, it's clear there's not been a level of understanding within some local authorities that homeless people are not a homogenous group, as you've just been saying, and that a solution for one person won't necessarily work for another. Minister, you've referred to some of this in your initial answer. We've had stories of people who've been housed together, including abuse victims who have been housed with people who have violent histories—one-size-fits-all approaches that often don't take into account individual needs. So, do you accept that far more work is needed to ensure that local authority staff are given a better understanding of homelessness, and that they receive training in how to deal with people who've experienced trauma, and that there's a recognition that providing a variety of types of accommodation, rather than one size fits all, is essential in solving the problem? 

[Inaudible.]—Delyth. I'm completely with you on everything you've just said. This is an enormous culture change for a lot of the local authorities, and we all know, from our own reaction to the pandemic, that, at first, it was terrifying and really worrying, but it was also a little bit exciting, it's new and different, we haven't done it before, and we all thought it might be a short, sharp thing that we could do to get the virus under control and so on. And what's happened with all of the services, of course, is it's become very plain that this is not a sprint, it's a marathon. And, so, people are tired. They've worked really hard all the way through all of this. They have limited resources still. Even though we've put £50 million more into it, it's still a limited resource for the people that we have presenting to us. We've also got an enormous never-ending stream of people who are experiencing the same problem. And we know that one of the big problems about further firebreaks and our continuing worry about the virus, and all of the kind of recessional-type stuff that's going in the economy, drives relationship breakdown, which drives the homelessness machine. So, we've got to get on top of the pandemic, and the economic consequences of that, in order to even begin the turn the tap off, so to speak. And I'm sorry to talk about people as if they're a flood because each one of them is a tragedy, but we have got a large number of people who are still in those kinds of circumstances.

We've also galvanised the biggest kind of support mechanism across mental health, substance abuse and relationship breakdown services. We've put enormous amounts of money into the advice services as well, to try and get people to maximise their income, because when they come into this housing, they need to be able to access what universal credit there is—and that's not always as straightforward as possible—but also an income stream in order to be able to sustain their housing and all of that. It's really complicated. And, then, of course, necessarily, because we've got such large numbers, we are putting people in unsuitable temporary accommodation. I absolutely accept that. The local authorities are doing their very best for that not to happen. Not everyone tells the full extent of their story when they first come into services. Many people are distrustful for very, very understandable reasons of official-type people trying to help and so on. And every single one of those failures is a real big problem.

However, there are also heartwarming stories of success. So, many authorities who have those problems have also got people who've come into services for the first time and been a resounding success. They happen to have got the right counsellor, the right support, and they've moved on into permanent accommodation. So, I don't want it all to be—. I'm not taking away from the ones that haven't got exactly what they want, and we need to redouble our efforts to do that, but I also think it's important to encourage the authorities, because they have also got successes. So, we need to encourage the successful work and discourage the unsuccessful work. We've been running a lot of webinars for authorities. This is, as I say, a huge culture change from where people were before with a sort of gate-keeping role. So, we've made it very plain that we're not going back, and that that culture change needs to embed. But, in all seriousness, there was never any way it was going to embed in only four months in the face of a pandemic. So, I've made it plain that we have not solved the problem; we have taken the first step to solving the problem. We will all need to pull together to make sure that we're able to carry on down that road.

Okay. Thank you for that, Minister. In terms of the culture change that's needed, obviously, it's not just the staff of local authorities who design and commission services who need that understanding and that compassion that you've just been alluding to. Recently, there's been—. We've seen some unfortunate comments from a local authority councillor in northern Wales that seem to imply that people with 'chaotic lifestyles', as that councillor said, were not deserving of services that were 'expensive', again using that councillor's words. This is, of course, despite the fact that preventing and solving homelessness is always cheaper than letting it happen, and it's still unfortunate that people making these decisions don't understand this. 

So, I'd ask you finally, Minister: what steps will you take to tackle prejudice amongst local authority councillors? Surely, we need compassion not villainisation.

I couldn't agree more, and the narrative on which we've had discussions many times in this Chamber about there somehow being some people who are deserving poor, and some people who are undeserving poor is an insidious scourge in our society, which we absolutely need to work together to make sure is wiped out, because every single human being who finds themselves in those circumstances did not arrive there. They weren't born into those circumstances. They're there because there's been a system failure somewhere along the line. So, we absolutely have got to get that message across, and unfortunately, we do live in a society where we have quite a lot of media along the undeserving poor-type stuff. So, I would like to take the opportunity to place on record once more that that is a scourge in any civilised society and we need to be sure that we don't, in any way, assist that narrative.

We have made it very plain that every human being that presents to a local authority, who requires a house, gets something: help immediately. They get help immediately; they get permanent help if that's at all possible, and if it isn't possible, they get temporary supported help while we sort out the permanent solution for them. And, as I say, that is a long road. That is easy to say for me standing here; much, much more difficult to do on the ground. But we have put a lot of resource into it so far. We need to continue to do that.

And I'll say on record, actually, since we're all sitting here, I have been saying to the homeless charities working in this space, as we approach the Senedd elections, that the best hope for people in this circumstance is to make sure that all of the political parties—the big political parties, anyway, in Wales—have this in their manifestos, because then we can be sure that together we can take this forward. I don't think that there's any real argument amongst the big political parties in Wales that this should happen. And so, we need to make sure that together we step it up.

The Conservative spokesperson, Mark Isherwood.

Diolch, Llywydd. I agree—there is no political argument amongst the big parties regarding this issue.

The recent Building Communities Trust report, 'Building Stronger Welsh Communities: opportunities and barriers to community action in Wales' is about harnessing the strength and skills of local people so that they can build the social infrastructure and shape the services they want and need in their area. After facilitating a national conversation with over 250 people who attended 20 events held across the length and breadth of Wales to influence decisions affecting their local area—[Inaudible.]—worthy words are not being backed up by action, public bodies are doing to not with people—[Inaudible.]—communities, and that entrenched public lack of trust, risk aversion, silo working, professional bias and staff demotivation are significant barriers to greater community action. And certainly my casework supports that in droves. How will you therefore be engaging with them to design, deliver and monitor a better way of local government working across Wales?

Thank you, Mark. I don't think I entirely got the whole of that question, but I think I got the thrust of it, so I'll do my best with it. So, what you're talking about there is the change of culture to what we call 'placemaking'. So, we have a number of organisations, including the one that you just mentioned, which have been working with us to make sure that we involve local communities in what their place should look like—what their communities should look like and what the facilities around them should look like. And we've very much been working on the basis of, to use the jargon, subsidiarity to get the decision making down to the lowest possible place where people can make the decisions. We've had this discussion many times, again, in this Chamber, where there is a need for some services to be universal—so, you need to have the same experience of some services regardless of where you live. But that isn't the case with your place or your local town or village or anything else, which we want to be as unique and local as we can manage to make it. So, we need the voices of local people to be loud and clear in those communities.

So, the whole thrust of 'Planning Policy Wales', the national development framework and the recovery papers that my colleagues the Counsel General and Ken Skates, the economy Minister, have been working on across all the regions of Wales are all designed to make sure that local people have that loud voice. So, again, Mark, if you've got examples where that's not working as optimally as it could, and it's a big culture change, and if you want to draw them to my attention separately, I'm very happy to look to see what we can do in specific instances to encourage that kind of co-operation on the ground.

Before you ask your supplementary, Mark Isherwood, just for you to know that your broadband connection is quite unstable. You have been cutting out quite a bit. So, we'll try your next question, but if it's not understood in the Chamber, then we may have to skip over your questions for this week. But, try again and we'll see where we get to this time.

Okay, well, I hope you can hear better and I hope that answer meant that you will be engaging them and communities not only in the design, but in the delivery and monitoring, where, as you know, I've referred a number of cases to you recently, but you felt that the Welsh Government could not intervene appropriately.

As we heard, BBC Wales reported last week that nearly a quarter of the rough-sleepers given temporary housing here during Wales's first COVID lockdown were living on the streets again. Yes, it said that more than 3,566 people were in temporary accommodation, but 101 were sleeping rough on those dates in August, compared with April when temporary placements were found for all 407 people known to be sleeping rough in Wales. The charity Shelter Cymru, who are working with real, affected individuals, said it was desperately disappointing, adding that it's the pressure on temporary accommodation that is leading some councils to have incredibly strict policies. The charity, The Wallich said that many councils were again turning homeless people away from help because of a lack of space, adding,

'We didn't solve poverty, we didn't end homelessness, we haven't solved substance misuse or mental health crises.'

And the charity Crisis is calling for a national cross-Government plan to end homelessness in a decade. How will you, therefore, be engaging with the sector to design, deliver and monitor a better, more sustainable way of addressing this?

I think I've pretty comprehensively covered some of this in my answer to Delyth Jewell, but I'll just add, for completeness, that, of course, we are following the plan set out for us by the housing action group, which has Shelter, The Wallich and Crisis all sitting on it as advisers to the Welsh Government in terms of how we structure our policies going forward. And what the pandemic did, obviously, was accelerate our response to those recommendations. So, we've completely followed the recommendations of the housing action group, including all of the organisations you've set out there, Mark, and we've been working with them, alongside them, right through the pandemic.

I think the Crisis document that you mentioned is actually Crisis talking about the UK Governments as a whole, not just in Wales, and we've been working very closely with those in terms of how we structure both the response to the pandemic and our response to homelessness going forward.

Carry on, Mark.

I hope that means— 

Carry on.

Can you hear?

Yes. Carry on.

Thank you. Well, I hope that means that you will also be engaging with them on delivery and monitoring. Crisis did issue the report you referred to, but they've also raised a number of Welsh-specific questions. They estimate that, on any given night, around 5,200 households in Wales were experiencing some form of homelessness in 2017, and that the housing need for people with an experience of homelessness and for people on low incomes is 4,000 new social homes each year. People with experience of homelessness, they say, can find it challenging accessing and maintaining a permanent home, both in the private and social rented rectors. They say the Welsh Government's phase 2 response focused on innovation, building and remodelling to transform homelessness services to a rapid rehousing model with £15 million financial support. But they said that transformation will require long-term planning and change. So, they asked what plans the Minister has, therefore, both to ensure that people with experience of homelessness are able to access a safe and secure home and the support they need to maintain a home, and for the long-term and increased funding of homelessness services to transition to rapid rehousing and meet demand. They asked me to ask those of you yesterday.

Thank you, Mark. Obviously, I'm very aware of the report from Crisis because the chair of the housing action group was, in fact, Jon Sparkes, the chair of Crisis. So, he's been working with us all the way through this, both to design our response in the first instance to homelessness in Wales—because this was put in place well before the pandemic—and then, of course, our response to the pandemic and, indeed, our response going forward in terms of changing our policy completely so that we have that rapid rehousing approach in Wales. That's exactly what the housing action group report set out, and that's now being reflected in Crisis documents across the UK, and actually, if you read the whole thing, citing Wales as an example of what can be done when we all put our minds to it and pull together. So, absolutely we're working with them going forward, and, as I said to Delyth, we most certainly haven't solved this problem. What we've done is taken the first big step along the path to solving it and, as I also said, there's a consensus across the Chamber that we should continue to do so.