The following amendment has been selected: amendment 1 in the name of Darren Millar.

The next item is a debate on voter inclusion, and I call on the Counsel General and Minister for the Constitution to move the motion—Mick Antoniw.

Motion NDM7818 Lesley Griffiths

To propose that the Senedd:

1. Welcomes the Welsh Government’s efforts to modernise electoral administration in Wales to ensure that people can vote and their votes are counted.

2. Notes the Welsh Government’s principles for Electoral Reform as set out in the Counsel General and Minister for the Constitution’s written statement on 15 July 2021. 

3. Regrets the proposals by the UK Government to introduce voter ID and restrict access to postal and proxy voting, which will suppress voting and deny people in Wales their fundamental democratic rights. 

Motion moved.

Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. It's a pleasure to open this debate today on voter inclusion.

In looking at the health of our society, of course we consider things such as poverty, equality, employment, social well-being, health, culture and language. Our innovative legislation, which is recognised across the world, namely the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015, notes the criteria that should be used in making decisions to safeguard and promote the well-being of future generations. But, I would suggest that there is one measure missing, which is the health of our democracy and the democratic well-being of our society.

Llywydd, when some 50 per cent of the population fail to vote in our elections regularly or at all, I suggest that the democratic health of our country is not good. There is no silver-bullet solution to this long-standing decline in civic participation, but I do not believe that looking for ways to put obstacles in the way of people being able to participate is the way forward. The Welsh Government does not, therefore, intend to follow the direction of the UK Government in its Elections Bill. Instead, we intend to adopt a very different approach, an approach that will lead to the development of a modern electoral system fit for the twenty-first century.

The Welsh Government is committed to inclusive and accessible voting in elections and wants to encourage participation in devolved elections in Wales. This new Senedd term provides an opportunity to set out an ambitious programme to increase Welsh democratic engagement, and part of this will be exploring the ways in which we can re-engage the electorate through new and accessible ways of registering and voting. And I'll discuss these in greater detail shortly.

But first, as we in the Welsh Government and in the Senedd today consider and discuss the ways in which to maximise voter inclusion, accessibility and participation, I am concerned, as many others are, about the UK Government's proposals in its Elections Bill, which contains measures more akin to voter suppression than participation. This is especially the case in relation to the voter ID measures, for which there is no evidential base and which clearly disadvantages those who are less likely to have the required forms of ID that will be imposed. That is why we have been clear that we will not be introducing voter ID cards or similar measures in Wales for devolved elections. We also have similar concerns around the UK Government's proposals for accessing postal and proxy voting for reserved elections, which we will also not be supporting.

As I've said in this Chamber before, there is no evidential base for the introduction of these measures. For example, data from the Electoral Commission suggests that, in 2019, across the UK, there were 595 cases of alleged electoral fraud investigated by the police. Of those, only 142 cases were categorised under a voting category, only one individual was convicted of using someone else's vote at a polling station, and one individual received a caution for the same reason.

Llywydd, this debate is not the time to go into our concerns in more detail in respect of the UK Government's proposals. We have a separate process for considering legislative consent, but as set out in the motion for this debate today, we regret the UK Government's proposals. We believe the UK Government's approach risks denying the people of Wales their democratic rights and undermining democratic participation.

Llywydd, in July, I published a set of principles for electoral reform. These principles reflect the values of social justice, inclusivity and democracy in Wales. As outlined in the written statement, the principles include equality—every person that wishes to participate in the democracy must be enabled to do so in a safe and respectful environment; accessibility—changes to electoral systems and electoral law should be based on the principle of making voting and participation in democracy as accessible and convenient as possible, and other principles include participation—improving citizen experience, simplicity and integrity. The principles will be used to benchmark our Welsh electoral reform agenda and approach to supporting democratic engagement and participation. Progress has already been made towards delivering on these principles, for example, in franchising 16 and 17-year-olds and qualifying foreign citizens—people who contribute to our communities and our nation who deserve to have their voices heard in our democracy.

Members will also be aware that Wales's first set of electoral pilots will be taking place as part of next year's local government elections. These will look at increasing the opportunities for people to vote, reflecting people's busy lives. And I'm pleased to announce that this morning I laid a written statement providing Members with more detail on these pilots. We are working with the local authorities for Blaenau Gwent, Bridgend, Caerphilly and Torfaen on a set of flexible voting pilots to test different forms of early voting. We have designed the pilots to provide evidence for the different types of early voting, whether at an existing polling station or a new central one, and opening these on different days. These include new polling stations being set up in a school and college to engage with newly-enfranchised voters. Each pilot will be different, helping us to see what works best in Wales. This will, in turn, inform our work on considering the ways to consolidate and codify electoral legislation in Wales, and to make it fully available in Welsh and English languages, and thereby improving the accessibility of Welsh electoral law. This approach will also provide an opportunity to digitise and modernise the electoral system in Wales, making it fit for the twenty-first century and ensuring that Senedd elections and local government elections in Wales are as inclusive as possible. We will be considering our own proposals for how to achieve this, and I look forward to working with colleagues in the Senedd in due course. Dirprwy Lywydd, we will not be supporting the Conservative amendment. Diolch.

I have selected the amendment to the motion, and I call on Darren Millar to move the amendment, tabled in his name.

Amendment 1—Darren Millar

Delete all and replace with:

To propose that the Senedd:

1. Believes that elections in Wales should be free and fair.

2. Welcomes the UK Government’s election Bill and its provisions to strengthen the integrity of elections.

3. Notes that the introduction of voter ID has been backed by the Electoral Commission and that the Organisation for Security and Co-operation in Europe's Office for Democratic Institutions and Human Rights has stated that its absence is a security risk.

4. Calls on the Welsh Government to work with the UK Government to improve the integrity of all elections held in Wales.

Amendment 1 moved.

Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. I move the amendment tabled in my name. At the outset of my speech, I want to make it absolutely clear that we broadly agree with the Welsh Government's stated principles on electoral reform, which it announced earlier this year i.e. to make voting more equal, more accessible, easier and simpler to participate in and a process with more integrity. But the difference between us and the Labour Government is that we see no reason whatsoever that the UK Government's Elections Bill is incompatible with those principles.

In spite of the song and dance that Labour Ministers have tried to make about the provisions in the UK Government Elections Bill, most people will be looking on with incredulity at their opposition to straightforward safeguards against voter fraud that will strengthen the security and integrity of elections here in Wales. And the big question is: why isn't the Welsh Government bringing forward similar sensible proposals for Senedd and council elections here in Wales? Electoral fraud is a heinous crime, of which every person in this Chamber and this country has been a victim, and it's a crime that we will be a victim of again and again if steps are not put in place to combat it. And the fact that there are very few cases of voter fraud that actually end up in the courts doesn't mean that it isn't happening. The nature of fraud is that it often goes unnoticed and unrecorded. But where it has been identified—I'll take an intervention in a second, Mike—where it has been identified in places such as Tower Hamlets, Slough, Birmingham and elsewhere it has exposed weaknesses in election arrangements that we have a duty to address.

I can't speak on behalf of Clwyd West, but in Swansea East, when you go into the polling station, you often don't have to give your name and they greet you by, 'Hello, Mike,' 'Hello, Huw.' The people in there live in the community; they tend to know the people there. Trying to carry out electoral fraud in Swansea East would be incredibly difficult.

I'm very pleased to hear that for you, Mike. Let's move on. So—[Laughter.]—the issue is that those problems have been exposed, and we must take action to address them, and that's precisely what the UK Government Elections Bill seeks to do. It will stop the theft of people's postal votes by requiring all voters to present photo ID, and it will address weaknesses in the postal and proxy vote arrangements.

Now, with regard to photo ID in order to vote, the Minister has railed against the position, not today, but on other occasions as well. Yet it was his own party that legislated to introduce voter ID in Northern Ireland, and we applaud you for taking that bold step. And I understand, even, that even in Labour Party selection meetings, very often, people are asked to bring photo ID to prove that they can vote for their appropriate election candidate. The fact is that voter ID is not the threat that the Labour Party make it out to be, 98 per cent of the electorate already have some sort of suitable photographic identification, and for those who don't, the UK Elections Bill provides for a free and optional voter card that will be available, as is already the case in Northern Ireland. The Electoral Commission has already said that since the introduction of photo ID in Northern Ireland, there have been no reported cases of impersonation. Voters' confidence that elections are well run in Northern Ireland is consistently higher than anywhere else in the UK.

So, the reality is that photo ID is already required in most Western democracies, including every single country in Europe with the exception of Denmark, where it has to be available only on request. So, it's not just the UK Government that wants voter ID to be introduced either. The Electoral Commission has backed it, and the Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe's Office for Democratic Institutions and Human Rights has said that its absence in UK elections is a security risk. Now, I want to see that security risk addressed, and so should every single Member of this Senedd.

Now, with regard to proxy and postal vote changes, again, these are perfectly sensible. Why would anyone who believes in free and fair elections want to stop banning party campaigners from handling postal votes altogether with only limited exceptions, making that a criminal offence? Why would anyone want to stop preventing postal vote harvesting by limiting the number of postal votes that a person may hand in on behalf of other people? Why would anybody want to stop extending secrecy provisions that currently protect voting in polling stations to absent voting, making it an offence for a person to attempt to find out or reveal who a postal voter has chosen to vote for, and why would anyone want to stop requiring those who've registered for a postal vote to reaffirm their identities by reapplying every three years?

Can you conclude now, Darren, please?

Those sound perfectly sensible to me—I will, I did take an intervention.

Time.

All of these measures will protect voters from fraud and improve the security and integrity of elections that are going to be held, so instead of baulking about them, I would encourage the Welsh Government to do something positive. Why not adopt them for Senedd elections? Why not adopt them for local government elections too? That would give voters confidence that their votes do make a difference and that they're not going to be stolen at an election.

The health of our democracy is based on trust—trust that has been severely tested recently, yet again, by the antics of MPs at Westminster and corruption—and I use my words carefully—corruption at the very heart of Government. If the numerous well-paid second jobs aren't enough, the Westminster Government also are putting people off from voting by forcing compulsory voter ID. It is funny, we hear the civil liberties argument by the Tories when they are against COVID passports, but they are in favour of compulsory voter ID. Penny and the bun, Mr Millar. 

The Westminster Government itself has shown that 2 million people, including 100,000 people here in Wales, could lose the ability to vote because of the introduction of voter ID. Forty-eight per cent of black people in the UK don't have a driver's licence, and all of this, as the Counsel General said, is being done despite the evidence that there is no problem to resolve. Northern Ireland is very different, as you well know. 

While Welsh elections are becoming more and more inclusive and democratic, Westminster elections will see a step back with this Elections Bill, taking us back to the Victorian way of elections, with fewer people being able to vote. The work of voting reform should be in the realm of inclusion, not exclusion as you're doing at the moment. 

According to the pilot—

Okay, Darren. Yes.

Thank you. I appreciate your taking the intervention. I remember your party and the Welsh Government making similar arguments when the UK Government introduced individual voter registration, and yet, in spite of your warnings and alarm bells ringing, the largest ever number of people were entitled to vote at a general election in 2019, following the introduction of that system. Now, this is a system that will simply introduce safeguards to make sure that the person who is turning up to say that that's their opportunity to vote and they're entitled to vote actually is the person who is entitled to it. What's the problem with that? You've just voted to allow people—. You've just voted to require people to share private medical information in order to go to the cinema—

Well, we haven't had the vote yet, Darren, but—

—and yet the biggest responsibility of any citizen of any country—

You've made your point, Darren. 

—is the opportunity to vote. I think this is a more important issue, and therefore people should present photo identification. 

Darren, what the Conservatives fail here is that this not an issue. It has not been an issue with elections in England and Wales in the same way as it was in Northern Ireland in the 1983 general election. We don't have compulsory IDs in this country as they do in Europe. Do you want that, Darren Millar? Do you want the civil liberties of people being taken away, that they need compulsory IDs wherever they go? And the cost of it—£20 million per general election will be the cost of this ID. It's not needed. It's another expensive waste of time by the Conservative Government. 

They say, don't they—. Well, I'll mention the pilot first, the pilot in 2019. Of the 2,000 people in the pilot who turned up to vote—. Sorry, 2,000 people were turned away from the polling stations because they didn't have the necessary ID. Of those 2,000 people, nearly 40 per cent did not return. That was the Westminster Government pilot. And that doesn't even take into account that people didn't turn up in the first place because they didn't have the necessary ID. They say, don't they, you can't put a price on democracy, but, because of your actions, the Westminster Government's actions, we'll soon know what the cost of democracy is—£34, the cost of a first-time driver's licence, or £75.50, the privilege of a passport. In Wales, people are again heading into a difficult winter, facing terrible uncertainty—sky-high energy and fuel prices, cuts to universal credit, higher taxes, rising inflation. One doesn't have to think for too long where the cost of voter ID will come when people are struggling to heat their homes and feed their families. [Interruption.] You say it's free; now, we have no detail about these free voting IDs. They say that councils will need to do the process—councils who are already struggling at the moment. Give us the details of this free voter ID. You haven't done it. And, as I said, it's not free—it's going to cost £20 million per general election. And who pays for that? The taxpayers. There are better ways to spend the money.

I'll go to my questions now, Counsel General, but Boris Johnson's Government really need to tackle the real issues in our politics: cleaning up political funding, bringing in the 9 million people already not included on the electoral roll and, crucially, reforming Westminster, both the House of Commons and the Lords.

I'm pleased, Counsel General, to see this pilot. I am pleased to see the four areas extending the ability to vote, but I note that they are all urban, highly populated areas. Wouldn't it be better to have included at least one rural area? How did you come to a decision as to where to locate those four areas? Research commissioned by Welsh Government published in March 2020 states that one major problem for young people in not voting is that it's difficult for them to understand and that they aren't properly educated, so how can you support teachers in teaching Welsh politics more effectively in our schools? It was also disappointing how few young people registered to vote. I think 54 per cent—

The Member will need to come to a conclusion.

—but the figure was much higher in other areas, such as Ceredigion. So, are you looking to see how Ceredigion worked far more effectively? And also, there is no data on foreign nationals living in Wales. Where can we get that data? But, ultimately, it's a responsibility on us all here. It is a disgrace that 50 per cent of people in Wales don't vote in Welsh Parliament elections, so each and every one of us from all parties are duty bound to inspire the interest of people of all ages and all backgrounds in what happens here in our Senedd. Thank you very much.

The health of our democracy is indicative of the health of our society more generally. The two are inseparable, and that's why I too am totally opposed to the Conservative Government's approach in Westminster to introducing voter ID for reserved elections. It is a shameful and underhand approach to undermine democracy. The Conservatives' gleeful disenfranchisement of a significant section of the population who don't own voter ID is indicative of their approach to governing more generally. Evidence suggests that it is those whose voices needs to be heard the most—the young, black, Asian and minority ethnic people and people from poorer backgrounds are least likely to have a form of voter ID, and therefore to be disenfranchised from voting in reserved elections. Just like many people, when I'm door knocking, my aim—

Jane, can you take an intervention from the Chamber? Yes. Okay, Darren.

Thank you. I appreciate the opportunity to make an intervention, and I appreciate it's difficult via Zoom. You just mentioned that ethnic minorities are going to be the ones that are most affected by this voter ID request. That's actually not backed up by the statistics provided by the Electoral Commission. They suggest that 99 per cent of people from ethnic minorities have voter identification—have identification that would be suitable as voter ID documents— compared to 98 per cent of the general population.

Thank you, Darren. I'm going to come on to your evidence—which I think is very selective—from the Electoral Commission, and I will continue on.

When I'm door knocking, my aim is to engage people in the democratic process as much as possible. So, trying to persuade people to vote, who perhaps would not normally, when there is an additional requirement, is going to be so much harder. I thank the Welsh Government for not changing our laws in relation to voter ID for elections.

And before I wrap up, I'd like to comment on the Conservative amendment, if I may, Dirprwy Lywydd. The Conservatives have claimed in their amendment today that the introduction of voter ID for elections is somehow backed by the Electoral Commission and several other organisations. So, just to take the Electoral Commission, it is an independent body, which does not take a view on partisan policy issues, and, for all organisations that the Conservatives can name in favour of voter ID laws in the UK, I can name countless more who are against, such as the Electoral Reform Society, Operation Black Vote, Unlock Democracy, openDemocracy and so on.

Finally, I am totally astonished by the cognitive dissonance of some of the Conservative Members on this issue. As we've heard, they claim on the one hand to want to protect liberty, freedom and they warn of a so-called checkpoint society when debating passport issues, but, on this issue, they are pushing for a system that excludes people from engaging in our democratic process—evidence once again that the Conservatives only stand up for liberty and freedom when it's convenient for them to do so. Thank you—diolch yn fawr iawn.

The one action that has improved election turnout is postal votes being provided on request. Unfortunately for democracy, the American Republicans and the British Conservatives want to remove voters from demographics unfavourable to them and to make voting more difficult for those people.

Everyone believes that elections in Wales should be free and fair. If we want that, the best way forward is to enforce electoral expenditure and ensure constituency spend is shown as constituency spend, not as national spend.

The UK Government's Elections Bill is either dealing with a problem that does not exist or trying to stop electors voting—I'll let you come to your own conclusions. Our biggest challenge is getting voters to vote. At the Senedd election this year, turnout in Swansea East was 35.41 per cent, with only Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney, at 34.8 per cent, being lower. While 2021 had the highest turnout since the Senedd was established, it still falls short of 50 per cent. One of the jobs of candidates and their campaign teams is to enthuse people to vote. Anything that makes it more difficult to get them out to vote is definitely not going to help. Some people do not believe that who gets elected matters, despite the evidence for them on the different responses on things like COVID and the areas that fall under the control of the Senedd. How much more difficult will it be to get people to vote if they have to go and try and find something they can go and show to prove who they are? It's going to make it even more difficult—

Will you take an intervention?

Yes.

People have to provide photographic ID in order to collect a parcel from the Royal Mail these days. Why on earth is that considered a perfectly reasonable requirement, versus people having to present photo ID in order to undertake their democratic opportunity and vote?

Very interesting, Darren, but they don't.

They do.

They don't.

They do.

Next time I have a parcel you can come with me to collect it; I showed my credit card and they gave it to me.

But, since the 1992 election, when 77.7 per cent of the population voted, voter turnout has decreased and remained low. What we need is to get more people voting, rather than trying to make it more difficult for those who marginally want to vote to vote.

On changing the electoral system, there's a push for the single transferable vote. STV is the electoral system used for Scottish council elections and for the Irish Parliament, the Dáil. The greatest weakness of STV is you have to guess how many seats you can win with nominated candidates. In the Irish general election of 2020, Sinn Féin, despite receiving the most first-preference votes nationwide, did not win the most seats. Despite beating Fianna Fáil by 535,995 votes to 484,320, they ended up with one seat less. It took 12,745 votes to elect each Fianna Fáil Member, but 14,476 to elect a Member of Sinn Féin—they guessed wrong on the number of seats they might win. So, STV is less a proportional system and more a skilled guessing game. 

Is it any surprise—[Interruption.]—that Scotland, despite using it for council elections, has decided not to use it for the Scottish parliamentary elections? The Highland Council area of Wester Ross, Strathpeffer and Lochalsh is the classic example of a council-size ward—not only is it the largest ward in the UK, it is larger in its area than 27 of Scotland's 32 councils. Also, it's roughly the same size as Trinidad and Tobago. Then there is the population needed for these wards to allow STV to operate effectively. Glasgow Ward 1 has an electorate of 30,000, roughly two thirds of the population of the Aberconwy Senedd constituency. Turning to Glasgow Govan, Labour topped the poll with 1,520, the SNP coming second and third with 1,110 and 1,096 votes each, and the Green candidate edged out the second Labour candidate to win the fourth seat. While the SNP efficiently got the first preference for both candidates very close to each other, Labour did not, and thus, despite easily topping the poll, ended up with just one of the four seats.

To summarise on STV, it needs to cover a very large geographical area, it needs a large population, it makes it much more difficult for constituents to know candidates—and one thing we might all agree on is it's important that constituents know candidates, are able to meet their candidate and actually know somebody from their own community—it involves guessing the number of seats you are going to win, and voters efficiently voting for the party candidates.

I had an intervention from a sedentary position by my colleague Alun Davies that first-past-the-post was also about guessing, but it isn't, is it, because first-past-the-post is about getting the most number of votes. So, you put your candidates there and you don't have to guess the order in which they're going to come up. 

No, I didn't say that. 

You did. 

What I said was that first-past-the-post is not a proportional system and is not fair, and it does not deliver any sort of proportionality. 

Well, it certainly doesn't do that, but—

It delivers Tory Governments. 

It also delivers Labour Governments, and just think this: if we'd never had first-past-the-post, we wouldn't have had the national health service because the Conservatives and the Liberals, as they were then, would have gathered together in 1945 to take control and would have controlled ever since. Just remember, the Liberals are the left wing of the Conservative Party.  

The fact that we're having this debate today is proof, if ever proof was needed, that this Labour Welsh Government is out of ideas, out of its depth and out of its mind. Here we are, sitting here six months on from the Senedd elections and I can count the number of Welsh Government debates on my fingers. Are we debating the big issues facing Wales and how are we going to solve them? No. Here we have yet another distraction tactic—'Look over there, the UK Government is bad'—hoping the Welsh public will forget about your failures: you failure to tackle the waiting list backlog; your failure to tackle the social care recruitment crisis; your failure to hold a Welsh COVID inquiry. If you keep talking about constitutional issues, maybe voters won't notice their public services crumbling around them—'Let's focus on what the UK Government are doing to elections. If we tell people that the evil Tories are trying to stop them from voting, maybe they'll vote for Welsh Labour instead'. 

The trouble is, it's not true. The UK Government are trying to secure our elections, elections that are wide open to fraud. That's the view of the Electoral Commission and multiple international organisations. It was the Electoral Commission that recommended the introduction of voter ID. The Office for Democratic Institutions and Human Rights within the Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe, an organisation that observes elections across the world, raised concerns about the vulnerabilities to fraud that they have seen in the UK's voting systems. Their concerns were realised in Tower Hamlets during the 2014 mayoral elections, and the High Court found evidence of widespread voter fraud. This is what spurred the UK Government to take action, action that was well thought out and widely tested. They tested different systems of voter ID during elections in 2018 and 2019. They established a system of providing free voter ID for those who had no form of identification, slaying that straw man for good.

Why is it that the left fear voter ID so much, and why do they continue to roll out spurious arguments against holding free and fair elections? Surely they don't condone voting fraud. The one argument I hear time and time again is that there is no evidence of such fraud happening in Wales and we therefore don't need voter ID for Welsh elections. Well, this place has never suffered a terrorist attack, so why do we bother having security and armed police? It's a ridiculous argument. We put measures in place to deter such attacks and to prevent such attacks, and just as we defend our democratic institutions, so should we defend our democracy. But let's be clear, the UK Government is not introducing voter ID for Senedd or local elections, because that's not within their remit. Those proposals are for UK Parliament elections and English local elections, and I would like this place to follow suit to secure our Welsh elections. But let's face it, it will never happen as long as we have a Welsh Government happy to make it easy for unscrupulous people to subvert the will of the electorate. Thank you very much. 

I think it's difficult to subvert the will of an electorate that's voting for you. It's one of the more curious arguments I've heard for some time. But I think it's right and proper that we discuss our democracy and how to deepen and broaden that democracy, and it's right and proper that we do it now, this time of year. Last weekend, we were marking the anniversary of the Chartists' march to Newport, where Chartists left Tredegar and Nantyglo and marched for democracy and campaigned and died for democracy, because democracy is something that too many of us here and elsewhere take for granted, and people campaign and die for democracy in different parts of Europe every day of the year, and we should recognise that, and we should never take any parts of our democracy for granted. I enjoyed the opening contribution from the Minister, from the Counsel General, on this matter. It's one of these areas where, for me, a happy coincidence of practicalities and philosophical commitment come together in this debate. It is right and proper that the Welsh Government constantly looks for ways of broadening participation in our democracy, and I'm grateful to the Minister and I'm glad to see that Blaenau Gwent is included in these trials, and I look forward to playing my part in ensuring that we can ensure that more people play a role in democratic elections and democratic participation than they have done in the past, and I look forward to conversations with the Minister about how that can be achieved.

But it is absolutely essential, and certainly during my time in Government I was very proud to propose legislation that extended the franchise to 16 and 17-year-olds. I was very proud to explore different ways in which can enable all the residents of Wales to participate in Welsh elections. One of the most telling aspects of this debate is that the Conservative contribution to it is to try to stop people from voting and not to encourage more people to vote. It's an extraordinary contribution to any democratic debate. And all too often—and I'll say this to you more in sorrow than in anger, as the saying goes—we all take and learn a lot from the United States; there are some things that should never cross the Atlantic. The commitment of the Republican Party to the disenfranchisement of different parts of the American population is one of the things that we don't want to see in this country. I'll take the intervention. 

I'm grateful to you for taking the intervention. This is not about importing things from the United States. When it comes to photo ID in order to vote, this is the norm across the whole of Europe. We are the odd country out. We're the only ones that don't have this, apart from in Northern Ireland, as far as the UK is concerned, which was introduced by your Labour Government. Are you therefore campaigning to withdraw photo ID in Northern Ireland?

One of the more disappointing parts of the Elections Bill from the United Kingdom Government is that it takes a whole range of different powers, and none of those powers seek to encourage participation. None of them seek to extend the participation in the democratic process. All of them seek to reduce democratic participation, and I think whatever the individual issue is—you've spoken about voter ID on this occasion, but whatever the issue is—we do need to protect our democracy. I agree with you on that. I think you've chosen the wrong issue upon which to focus this afternoon. I think there are other issues, and I'll come to those before I conclude, but there is an absolute need to continue to look imaginatively and creatively, to look at how we can encourage more people to vote and to encourage people to vote in different ways. I would like to see, Minister—and I hope you'll be able to address this in your reply to this debate—how we can introduce multiday voting to ensure that people can vote over, for example, a weekend, rather than simply on a Thursday. How can we introduce electronic voting to ensure that people can vote from wherever they happen to be? How can we ensure that the electoral registers are all electronic so that I could vote in Clwyd West or Pontypridd or Blaenau Gwent, and the Member for Clwyd West could vote in Blaenau Gwent as well, to ensure that we've got the maximum participation, to ensure that the technology that is available to us is used to maximise participation? I hope that we're able to do that.

In concluding, Deputy Presiding Officer, there are two things that I would seek the Welsh Government support in doing to protect the integrity of our elections. First of all is to empower the Electoral Commission to regulate access to foreign funding, to dark money that we've seen polluting our politics in recent years, and also to empower either Ofcom or the Electoral Commission to regulate the misinformation and deliberate disinformation that we've seen over the last few years. That is where our democracy is being undermined. And I'll tell you now, Darren Millar, where that takes us: it takes us to the American Capitol on 6 January earlier this year. That's where that sort of politics takes us. First, you try to stop people voting, you put all the barriers in front of people to prevent them from voting, you gerrymander the constituencies and, if all of that fails, you use disinformation and misinformation to undermine the integrity of an election and try to bring down your democracy rather than to give way.

And the final point—

The Member must conclude now.

The final point I'd wish to make is that the greatest exclusion of electors is first-past-the-post, and I hope that we will be able to introduce proportional representation—fair proportional representation—STV, to ensure that everybody is included in choosing who represents them and not just people who happen to live in constituencies where the majority of people agree with their choices.

I'm still slightly aghast at the comments trying to insinuate links between an insurrection of the Capitol and voter inclusion discussion here today. But thank you to the Government for brining forward today's debate.

First, I'd like to start with reiterating the points that Members have raised already: the importance of free and fair elections. I support moves to ensure that those eligible to vote have the informed ability to do so easily and confidently. And that confidence in the electoral system is where I want to focus my contribution here this evening. Confidence and trust in any Government starts with the vote and the integrity of this vote is a foundation of democracy, as Mr ab Owen mentioned in his contribution. And all that a fair democratic nation has to offer comes from that ability to have confidence and trust in that vote. If this vote can't be trusted, then decision making comes into question across all layers of government. When voting, people need to have complete trust in the process, and this is why we should always look to tweak and improve the voting process, which, in my eyes, is what the UK Elections Bill is seeking to do.

As the Conservative amendment submitted by my colleague Darren Millar states, elections in Wales should be free and fair. Sadly, there is evidence, though, that parts of our society do not feel free and fair when voting. And again, Mr ab Owen, you referred to electoral abuse not being an issue, but in the 'Securing the ballot' report that looked into electoral fraud in 2016, the report found that electoral fraud was particularly prevalent and a risk in communities when an individual's right to vote in secret was at risk, with evidence of pressure being put on particularly women and young people to vote according to the will of others. And I'm sure that Members across this Chamber would agree that it's not right that women and young people can feel pressure when voting, and this urgently needs to be addressed. This is also backed by research from—I'll mention it again; we're playing a game of bingo here today—the Electoral Commission, which shows that many people simply aren't confident in the security of our voting system, with 66 per cent of the public saying that a requirement to show ID at polling stations would make them feel more confident. And it was only in the last debate that Members across this Chamber were lauding the fact that we should be listening to the popular opinion of members of the public—66 per cent of them would want to see voter ID at the polling station. With this information, it's important to note, as has already been mentioned, that, again, the Electoral Commission, an independent body, sets standards for how elections should be run while supporting voter ID.

Coming on to the Welsh Government's motion, they state that voter ID will suppress voting and deny people in Wales their fundamental democratic rights. This is a bold claim, to say the least. Of course, we need to ensure that introducing voter ID works, and isn't it fantastic that there is evidence across nations that voter ID does work? I'm surprised to hear some of the Europhiles in the room today not wanting to emulate what is happening across the continent, with 47 other countries—47 other countries—in Europe having full voter ID requirements. And, of course, as mentioned already today, closer to home, in the first general election after photographic ID was introduced, turnout in Northern Ireland was higher than in each of England, Scotland and Wales. So, the comments made in terms of suppressing voter—[Interruption.] Sorry, Mr Hedges, did you want to intervene?

But, it was higher before as well. Northern Ireland has historically had very high turnouts. It's a bit like saying the turnout in Brecon and Radnor was higher than in Blaenau Gwent or Swansea East.

So, coming back to the insinuation that voter ID would suppress voting and deny people their fundamental democratic rights, it clearly has had no effect in Northern Ireland. And we do have an issue in Senedd elections and we must come to face this: 46.6 per cent of people voted in May's elections compared to 67 per cent in UK general elections. The UK Government may have some good ideas here as to how we can secure voter confidence at election time.

I'm aware of time, Deputy Presiding Officer, so I will move on. To conclude, then, it's vitally important that we continue to increase the integrity of voting, making sure people feel safe, secure and free while voting, and ensure people can vote fairly. We have a UK Government Elections Bill, backed by the Electoral Commission and backed by the public, to prevent voter fraud, which successfully works across many other nations around the world. Yet, we're here again hearing the usual bashing of the UK Government by the Welsh Government. I would urge all Members to reject the Welsh Government's motion and support our Conservative amendment to give those voters the safety and fairness that they deserve. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

I'm sure all Members will agree that elections should be fair, open and accessible. We should be encouraging as many members of the electorate to participate in our democracy as possible, and feel empowered to have their voices heard beyond voting time. I welcome the six principles laid out by the Counsel General, which are to be used as a benchmark for the electoral reform agenda. It is important that voting is as simple and as close as possible to our everyday lives. I was pleased to hear that a pilot for next year's local government elections will include students being able to vote at their college. Lowering the voting age to 16 was a really positive step and Welsh Government must do all it can to engage young voters. I look forward to seeing the results of the Welsh Government's pilots, such as early voting, to modernise elections in Wales and hope it will lead to increased turnout and participation. 

I am also, however, deeply concerned about the impact of requiring voter ID for general elections and the impact it will have on the electorate, denying them their democratic right to participate in elections. The evidence is very clear in terms of the number of incidences, as was mentioned previously, and the convictions for voter fraud that occurred in 2019 general election—just four convictions and two cautions in the whole of the United Kingdom—are hardly justification for bringing in ID checks, as has been mentioned earlier. The move by the Tory Government in Westminster will very likely suppress electoral turnout, particularly amongst more disadvantaged and marginalised communities. We can already see this in the US: the richer you are the more likely you are to have ID. Putting up unnecessary and unfounded obstacles to participating in our democracy in this way is shortsighted and fails to recognise the intrinsic benefits of improved participation in our democracy and empowering citizens. Well, I hope the UK Government will reconsider its decision to make accessing our democracy more difficult and follow the Welsh Government's lead in modernising the way we are able to vote. Diolch.

I call on the Counsel General to reply to the debate.

Thank you, Dirprwy Lywydd. Can I just, before I get into my main summation, say that I attended Coleg Gwent yesterday in Blaenau Gwent, in the Member's consistency, and met a fairly substantial group of young people, and can I say how impressed I was by them? But, one of them sent me an e-mail, which I received this morning, and I'd just like to read this, because it answers some of the points raised.

'My name is Maddy Dhesi. I am 18 and from Wrexham and my first time voting was this May. If I had needed voter ID for my first time voting, I do not think I would have been able to vote. My provisional license application was the first official form I had ever filled out by myself. It got sent back four times and it took three months for me to eventually receive it. One of my teachers had to verify my identity...and funding the cost of a provisional license under the 16 year old’s national minimum wage of £4.20...meant I had to work a nine hour shift in order to afford a license. I live in a rural community which meant, if an electoral identity card scheme was in place, I would struggle to easily access this. All in all, voter ID will make voting harder when all the evidence of low turnout indicates the opposite needs to be done....Voter ID risks a new generation of voters being turned away from democracy.'

I think that sums up the position of a lot of young people and comments I had yesterday. Can I also make this point? Darren Millar said 'Well, you know, if you're so concerned about this, why aren't you legislating?' Well, that's the whole point. We will be legislating. What we are doing is saying to the UK Government that we don't want their proposals to apply to the Welsh elections—that is, the local council and the Senedd elections. We will reform to modernise and consolidate our electoral system. Now, I did say this in my speech. Unfortunately, I suspect Darren Millar's comments were written before he'd actually had an opportunity to listen to what I said. Wasn't it interesting also that he said in the coronavirus passports debate, 'But there is no evidence', yet he wants to see restrictions here on voting, despite the fact that there is no evidence whatsoever.

I won't go into the detail of it now, but the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development and the Electoral Commission, that is not what they say. I have the OECD report. I have read the full reports. In fact, the most recent report doesn't say anything about it, but what you have commented is actually distortion and out of context of what they're actually saying. 

Rhys ab Owen, can I just thank you for your comments as well, and all the other Members for the comments that have been made today? The reason why the four councils have been selected is because they were the four that applied. We invited every council. I'm disappointed that we didn't have some others, perhaps from north Wales and from the rural areas, but those are the ones that applied, and everyone that applied has been accepted onto that pilot. But we do take on board those particular points. And I agree very much with what you say about the issue of civic knowledge, civic education, because I think that is where we begin to prepare people for adulthood and for life, and, of course, there are issues about that with the curriculum, and also with regard to foreign nationals.

And can I just comment then on Darren Millar's comments about voter ID cards? Can I just say to Darren Millar that voter ID cards are a recipe for tyranny and oppression? [Interruption.] And that's why I'm obliged—.

'If I'm obliged to have one by the emanations of the state, I will grind it up and eat it on my cornflakes.'

Those were the comments of Boris Johnson in 2004, and it's probably the only thing he's ever said that I actually agree with.

So, can I thank all Members for their comments and their contributions? But let me be totally frank and direct to all Members in concluding my comments with a warning. We have a UK Tory Government that is strategically and deliberately unravelling long-established democratic structures and rights. We have seen in recent days the extent to which they are prepared to go to undermine the maintenance of standards in Westminster. Democracy in the UK is under threat, slowly, bit by bit, but definitely and deliberately.

Voter suppression through the introduction of ID cards is a deliberate policy that has come from the right wing of the Republican Party in the US, with whom the Prime Minister and his colleagues have been in such close contact. Their proposed extension of the right to vote to non-doms who have now lived abroad, which is included within the UK Government's Elections Bill, for over 15 years—so, people who have not lived in this country for over 15 years—has but one objective and it isn't the furtherance of democracy. It is to legitimise political donations from millionaires and billionaires living abroad. Legislative proposals to introduce ouster clauses to prevent the courts from reviewing unlawful acts of the UK Government is a direct threat to the rule of law.

In the last set of mayoral elections in England, Labour won 11 of the 13 seats. What is the response of the UK Government? Well, it isn't to look at ways of re-engaging with voters in those areas; it is to change the voting system to make it more difficult for non-Conservative candidates to win. There are proposals to establish political control over the operation of the Electoral Commission. You referred to its independence; the Bill actually seeks to give political control over the Electoral Commission, and if proceeded with will undermine its independence.

And we have also seen, via the United Kingdom Internal Market Act 2020 and recent spending review, that levelling-up money is being overwhelmingly targeted at attempting to buy votes in Tory seats in England and Wales. That is Tammany Hall politics. Llywydd, if this was happening in Russia—[Interruption.] If this was happening in Russia, Llywydd, we would be calling it by what it is—

Counsel General, two seconds. I appreciate that backbenchers of the party to my right may wish to raise their comments, but I'd like to hear the comments from the Counsel General, and I can't when he's sometimes being heckled.

It is always difficult, Dirprwy Lywydd, when you have the Conservatives behind you and you can't see what they're up to. [Laughter.] Dirprwy Lywydd, if this was happening in Russia, we would be calling it by what it is: corruption, and an attack on democracy and an undermining of the rule of law. That is exactly what it is, and we must wake up to what the Tories are doing. And I think the Members must also wake up to what is being done in your name. Dirprwy Lywydd, I ask for the support of all Members of this Senedd to do what is right, and to stand up for democracy and the rule of law.

Now, Dirprwy Lywydd, to conclude, the Welsh Government want to set an example to the rest of the UK. We want to make elections as open and accessible and as robust as possible. We also want to find new ways to engage with voters, to make sure that they have every opportunity to participate in the democratic process—comments that have been ably made by other Members within this Senedd. Our approach, unfortunately, appears to be in direct contrast to the UK Government's approach. Now, as outlined earlier, the local government elections in Wales next year will provide a way to test a number of electoral innovations, ahead of a potential national roll-out in the 2026 Senedd elections. So, I look forward to working on those matters alongside colleagues here in due course, and I urge Members to support the motion and to reject the Conservative amendment.

Thank you, Counsel General. The proposal is to agree amendment 1. Does any Member object? [Objection.] There are objections. I will therefore defer voting under this item until voting time.

Voting deferred until voting time.