Item 8 is next, and that's the debate on the general principles of the Tertiary Education and Research (Wales) Bill. I call on the Minister for Education and Welsh Language to move the motion—Jeremy Miles.

Motion NDM7950 Lesley Griffiths

To propose that the Senedd, in accordance with Standing Order 26.11, agrees to the general principles of the Tertiary Education and Research (Wales) Bill.

Motion moved.

Thank you very much. It's a pleasure to open this debate on the general principles of the Tertiary Education and Research (Wales) Bill and to move the motion, and on the financial resolution. I'm grateful to Jayne Bryant, Peredur Owen Griffiths, Huw Irranca-Davies and to the members of their respective committees for their thorough and constructive approach to scrutinising the Bill, and for their comprehensive and convincing reports. I would also like to thank the numerous stakeholders who have taken an active role in developing and scrutinising the Bill, providing their expertise, their challenge and their perspective, which continues to steer our work. Perhaps, Deputy Presiding Officer, it might not be possible to cover all the areas where committees have asked for further information today, but I will be writing to the committees in due time to respond to their reports, and I will provide the required information at that time.

It is my pleasure to note the welcome from the Children, Young People and Education Committee for our strategic approach, our innovation in introducing new strategic duties, and the broader framework for the reforms made in Wales. I also welcome and note the recommendations made by the committee in relation to the role of the commission in promoting Welsh-medium education and research, and I am considering how the Bill can be amended to reflect this shared objective. I share the committee's support for the excellent work of the Coleg Cymraeg Cenedlaethol, and accept that the Bill would benefit from stronger reference to how the commission and the coleg will collaborate.

Turning, Deputy Presiding Officer, to that important issue of learner voice, our introduction of a learner engagement code requires providers to address how they will involve learners in decisions on all aspects related to their learning and to their interests and concerns. The CYPE committee and the NUS have made a strong point on how we could go a stage further in including the importance of learner views within our strategic duties, and I will bring forward an amendment to this effect.

Colleagues will know of my personal and this Government's commitment to working in social partnership. We all benefit from working together as Government, trade unions and employers to ensure better outcomes in education, in the workplace and as a society. As Members will know, the Deputy Minister for Social Partnership is bringing forward a Bill later this year, and I want to confirm that the social partnership duty, as set out in that draft Bill, will apply to the commission as it will be a body subject to the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015. I agree with the intention behind the Children, Young People and Education Committee's recommendation on social partnership, and I am exploring this matter further whilst also considering the anticipated provisions of the forthcoming social partnership Bill. 

There are a range of recommendations in respect of research. I've already indicated my intention to bring forward amendments to increase the prominence of research on the face of the Bill, including through amendments to the strategic duties. In respect of the statement of priorities and the commission's strategic plan, I'm afraid I don't accept the recommendation to subject the development of the statement of priorities to a statutory consultation duty, and it's for this reason: the priorities we intend to be set out in the statement to be published under section 11 will be high level and strategic, and will not, in my opinion, lend themselves to consultation. I am, however, reflecting on the recommendation in respect of the ability of the Welsh Ministers to modify the commission's strategic plan, and will consider whether to bring forward an amendment. 

With regard to the recommendations on board membership and roles, I appreciate the case that is being made. However, it does not, in my view, give sufficient weight to the issue of avoiding potential conflicts of interest, separation of activities and maintaining the independence of trade unions, the National Union of Students and learner representative bodies. In establishing strong advisory board membership, we are going further than many current structures. Although, of course, we have listened to the references made to governance structures of individual providers, I do not believe that this should be the template for the board of a national regulatory and funding commission, as it has a fundamentally different remit. As colleagues will be aware, the important issues of institutional autonomy and academic freedom are debated, understandably, whenever tertiary education legislation is introduced. The Bill contains a number of provisions recognising institutions' well-established autonomy. However, I note the views of committee and stakeholders, and I'm exploring options for even greater provision in this area. 

Moving on to registration, and in response to the query raised by the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee, registration is critical in respect of higher education providers as they now receive only a small proportion of their funding in the form of recurrent grants to which terms and conditions could be applied. The majority of their public funding is from student support. If the register were removed, then the commission would be unable to effectively regulate these providers because of this predominant reliance on student support rather than commission grants. The Bill would then fail to achieve a number of its key objectives. With regard to the recommendations of the committees in respect of increasing transparency around the funding decisions of the commission, I am already considering how the Bill can be further refined in this area. 

Turning to the CYPE committee's recommendation 29 in respect of sixth forms, I'd like to highlight that the Bill already adds further additional protections through the strategic duty placed on the commission to promote tertiary education through the medium of Welsh. It will apply to the commission in discharging its functions across the post-16 sector, including any considerations in respect of maintained school sixth form provision. Additionally, the School Standards and Organisation (Wales) Act 2013 and the statutory school organisation code also include relevant protections and safeguards to ensure that Welsh language provision and provision provided by faith schools is duly considered in any proposals brought forward for reorganisation. In addition, the current ministerial backstop powers of intervention remain in place. As such, I do not consider further amendments to the Bill to be necessary, and I consider that the existing provisions provide for the protections that are sought by the committee in this recommendation.

In relation to the recommendations in respect of the power to dissolve higher education corporations, I have noted the strength of feeling of stakeholders and will bring forward amendments to these provisions to address these concerns. I note the recommendations in respect of section 105 of the Bill, which makes provision in respect of consent for collaborating bodies. I am already exploring options for amendments to improve these provisions.The LJC committee has made a range of recommendations about the proposed Senedd procedures for the exercise of delegated powers in the Bill. While it has not been possible for me to accept all of the committee's recommendations in full, I will bring forward amendments in response to recommendations 12, 13 and 15.

Finally, Dirprwy Lywydd, turning to the Finance Committee, the regulatory impact assessment will be updated in line with standard procedure after Stage 2 with the latest information, and in light of the committee's recommendations. I do not envisage any significant changes to the overall figures in the RIA, as the anticipated staff numbers of the commission, the major driver of overall cost, have not altered since November. I recognise the committee's desire to explore the updated regulatory impact assessment. So, I will share a copy with the committee as soon as possible after Stage 2, to give the committee an opportunity to consider the latest information and ask any follow-up questions before Stage 3. While I recognise the intention behind the committee's recommendation in respect of costs to other bodies, I'm afraid I cannot accept this recommendation. It has not been possible to quantify any potential additional costs to other bodies, as this will depend upon decisions taken by the commission once it is established. Any assumptions or estimates made by the Welsh Government at this time would pre-empt these decisions and would not provide for accurate estimations of any potential costs.

In conclusion, Dirprwy Lywydd, this Bill establishes the commission as the national steward for tertiary education and research, responsible for its funding, oversight and quality. The commission will take a system-wide view, supporting learners throughout their lives to have the knowledge and skills to succeed and securing providers that are strong, independent and diverse, and that make significant contributions to national well-being and prosperity. I urge Members to agree the general principles and the financial resolution of the Bill today.

I call on the Chair of the Children, Young People and Education Committee—Jayne Bryant.

Diolch, Deputy Llywydd. Thank you very much, Minister, for your opening remarks. I'm pleased to see some of the commitments that you have made today. I'd like to open by thanking all those who contributed to our scrutiny of this Bill. We know that the timetable for legislative scrutiny often means that stakeholders have very little time to respond in writing, or to prepare for oral evidence. This can be particularly challenging for Bills that are long, complex and important—all things that this Bill is. Our scrutiny is based on the evidence that we received, and we received detailed evidence—thoughtful and considered evidence—from all of the stakeholders who contributed. So, thank you all. I would also like to thank my fellow committee members for their diligence and care on approaching scrutiny to the Bill. It was our first significant piece of work as a committee, and we had to move at pace with a technical and lengthy piece of legislation. I also welcome the open approach that the Minister has taken to scrutiny of the Bill. He was clear from the outset that he was open to the views of stakeholders and the Senedd. I welcome the broadly positive response that we have received today to the recommendations in our report.

The post-16 education sector is of vital importance. It educates, it employs, and it improves the lives of all of us in Wales. As a sector, it changes lives, both in terms of the individual students or learners who develop skills or knowledge, or through the research, development and innovation that is a key feature of the sector. I'd like to place on record my thanks for all who work in the post-16 sector, across the breadth of provision, for all their hard work, especially over the last two challenging pandemic years. I'd also like to thank all the students and learners, who, while increasing their knowledge and their skills, often do this alongside employment and family commitments. The sector encompasses a wide range of provisions, some of it very different in content, delivery and outcome. The prize that this Bill seeks to capture is a stronger, more robust sector that is learner focused and resilient—something that there is agreement and consensus on.

Moving on to the committee's findings, we made 37 recommendations, and I obviously don't have time to cover all of them today, so I'll be focusing on recommendation 1, and then those looking at the commission's membership, the commission's strategic duties, and the regulation-making powers. Our first recommendation is that the Senedd approves the general principles of the Bill. This is in line with the evidence we heard from stakeholders, who broadly supported the Bill and the need for legislation. Our subsequent 36 recommendations seek to strengthen and improve the Bill.

We explored in detail the composition of the commission, as set out in Schedule 1 to the Bill. We heard clear evidence that there was a need to ensure the commission reflects the diversity of Wales as a whole, and more specifically, the breadth of provision and research within the post-16 sector. Whilst the Minister told us that the public appointments process would seek to ensure that appointments were drawn from the widest pool of people, we know that this can be difficult to actually achieve in practice. The composition of the board is so critical, and this is why we want to see part of the Bill strengthened in making recommendation 6. This calls for amendments to place a requirement on Welsh Ministers to have regard to ensuring that the commission represents the breadth and provision within the sector, and the broader diversity of Wales. We also made recommendations in relation to the learner and worker associate members. The Bill provides for at least two worker and at least one learner representative. Whilst this sets the minimum, and not the maximum level, we think that the Bill should be more ambitious.

The work of the commission will drive change across the sector, and it's imperative that the learner and worker voice is heard and shapes decision making at the highest level of the commission. In recommendation 7, we call for an increase in the learner and worker representation. The Government should provide a clear steer on ensuring the learner and worker voice is at the heart of the commission. Better representation will lead to improved decision making. Our evidence that we gathered did not see this being a conflict of interest.

At the moment, the learner and worker representatives have associate status with no voting rights. We believe that they should be full members with voting rights, as set out in recommendation 8. During our evidence gathering, we heard how, across the sector, student representatives currently sit on governing bodies with full voting rights. At the very least, the commission should be matching current good practice, if not in fact going further. We believe giving learner and worker representatives voting rights helps to do this.

One of the big changes to the Bill we're debating today, in comparison to the draft Bill, has been the introduction of the strategic duties in Part 1. These were broadly welcomed by stakeholders, but we heard different views on how these could be expanded and improved upon. We were convinced by some of this evidence, which led to us making recommendation 10, through to 19, on the strategic duties. I'll now highlight a couple of those recommendations in more detail.

In relation the the strategic duty on promoting tertiary education through the Welsh medium, we felt the Bill could be bolder and more in line with the Welsh Government's 2050 ambition of 1 million Welsh speakers. The post-16 sector will play an essential role in supporting delivery of that goal. We want to see the commission play a role in generating demand and not just meeting reasonable demand. The sector is already starting from a low baseline of Welsh-medium provision, and with increases in Welsh-medium education in the compulsory pre-16 sector, we need to ensure that there's enough capacity to help learners continue education in the language of their choice. We therefore make recommendation 15, calling for amendments to strengthen the duty on the commission to promote Welsh-medium tertiary education.

The Minister has emphasised to us the importance of ensuring the sector is learner focused, and with this in mind, I welcome today the Minister's commitment for amendments to bring that forward to promote the learner voice. Recommendation 18 calls for this strategic duty to be added to the Bill. This will be in line with the policy intentions of the Bill and will be a clear demonstration of the importance of the learner within the sector.

Moving on to the regulation-making powers in the Bill, the Bill has over 40 of these and much of the detail of how the Bill will operate in practice will be in the regulations. Broadly, we think this is appropriate and will enable changes to be made in the future, where necessary. But we were disappointed that we will not see any draft regulations until after our scrutiny work has finished. Considering the time that it's taken for the development of the Bill, we think certain key regulations should have been published in draft form as part of Stage 1 scrutiny. We list those in recommendation 36. If the Minister is unable to provide draft regulations before the end of the amending stages, we would at least ask for the further information on the Government's current thinking on the likely content of the regulations. This will help inform the tabling of amendments for Members and improve scrutiny of the Bill. I note that this is an issue that the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee also picked up in their report.

As I said, I don't have time to cover all our recommendations—I'll give you a flavour of the other areas we cover. We call for amendments on strengthening the independence of the commission, funding powers and duties, sixth forms, learner protection plans, information sharing and powers in relation to higher corporation. Our report's quite detailed and lengthy; it goes into lots of detail in this area. I would encourage all Members across the Senedd to read the report ahead of the amending stages.

In closing, Deputy Llywydd, this is an important and significant Bill that will hopefully help strengthen and empower the post-16 education sector. I look forward to moving to the amending stages and following up on the implementation of the Bill in the coming Senedd term. Diolch.

I call on Alun Davies on behalf of the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee.

I'm grateful to you, Deputy Presiding Officer, and grateful to the Minister as well for the introduction he gave this afternoon and for appearing in front of our committee last December. He has, in addition to his appearance in December, responded to a number of additional queries via correspondence and we're also grateful to him for that.

This afternoon, Deputy Presiding Officer, I'm contributing to this debate on behalf of the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee. The Minister has replied formally to the recommendations in our report yesterday afternoon. Deputy Presiding Officer, we are publishing that correspondence to help inform this afternoon's debate.

Our report on the Bill contains 22 recommendations. Members will be pleased to hear that I do not plan this afternoon to cover all 22 in this contribution, but I will instead highlight the themes that have emerged during our scrutiny. The Bill contains 56 powers for Welsh Ministers to make regulations, Orders, codes, lists and directions, and in addition to issue guidance.

A number of our recommendations relate to our belief that the scrutiny procedures attached to some of the delegated powers need to be more robust. At present, we do not believe that they provide Members of the Senedd with sufficient powers and opportunity for scrutiny. For example, in recommendation 12 we advocate for the need for regulations made under sections 39 and 41 of the Bill to be subject to the negative procedure rather than to no procedure at all. I'm sure that the Minister will address these recommendations in full when he provides a further response to our committee's report, but I very much welcome the tone of what the Minister said in his opening remarks.

Deputy Presiding Officer, five recommendations in our report asked that the Minister clarify certain matters. For example, recommendation 11 asked the Minister to clarify and provide further reasoning as to why the regulation-making powers in section 30 are not accompanied by a duty to consult before the powers are used. The response we received yesterday from the Minister indicates that he will be giving further consideration as to whether these powers would benefit from a statutory consultation duty. I welcome that commitment and I look forward to the Minister continuing to consider that and coming to a happy conclusion.

Two recommendations in our report, recommendations 9 and 10, relate to section 23 of the Bill. We asked the Minister to confirm why a legal provision for registration is necessary, particularly as it appears possible to regulate other tertiary education providers through the terms and conditions of funding. If a provision in law is needed, we recommend that the categories referred to by the Minister during the committees' Stage 1 consideration of the Bill are set out on the face of the Bill, with an accompanying provision that enables additions and/or modifications to be made by regulations subject to the affirmative procedure. Again, I am confident that the Minister will address these recommendations in full when we have a further response to our committee's report, but, again, I wish to welcome the tone of the Minister's opening remarks.

Deputy Presiding Officer, before closing, allow me to briefly comment on two recommendations in our report that relate to our committee's broader objective of helping to ensure this Senedd makes good law. Firstly, Members will know that one of the requirements that must be met for a Bill to be within the legislative competence of the Senedd is that all provisions must comply with the European Convention for the Protection of Fundamental Human Rights and Freedoms. We were disappointed as a committee with the uninformative response that the Minister provided when we asked how the rights of entry and inspection provided for in sections 62 and 72 of the Bill are compliant with the Human Rights Act 1998.

Our recommendation 2 asked the Minister to provide the Senedd with full details about the human rights impact assessments carried out in relation to the Bill, including how sections 62 and 72 of the Bill comply with the 1998 legislation. Minister, I acknowledge that you have addressed this recommendation in the letter we received yesterday afternoon, and you have confirmed that human rights implications have been fully considered and that you are content that the Bill, and specifically these two sections, are both compatible with convention rights. However, it is the view of the committee that this is not the same as providing the Senedd with full details of the assessments, breakdowns and publication of the assessments that are being undertaken. The Minister will know that our committee pays close attention to the Welsh Government's obligations with regard to human rights and equality impact assessments.

Secondly, there are several delegated powers in the Bill that the Minister has included for reasons of flexibility and futureproofing. As a matter of good law, we do not consider it appropriate for a government to take Executive powers in a Bill when that government has no intention of using those powers. We fully appreciate that it is, for Government, something that provides them with flexibility for the future. However, it is right and proper that in the correct democratic supervision of the exercise of Executive powers, this place only provides those powers to Ministers that are actually necessary to deliver on the legislation as written. 

Recommendation 4 in our report asked the Minister to provide further detail and clarity regarding the powers in eight sections of the Bill and how they are intended to be used by the current Welsh Government. I welcome the information that the Minister has provided to us in an annex to the letter we received yesterday, and we will continue to write to Members providing further analysis, reflections and observations on these matters. 

Minister, once our committee has formally considered your full response to our report, we may well come back to you on certain matters. But at present, Deputy Presiding Officer, that concludes the view of the committee.

The Llywydd took the Chair.

I call on the Chair of the Finance Committee now—Peredur Owen Griffiths.

Thank you, Llywydd. I'm pleased to be able to contribute to this debate today as Chair of the Finance Committee. We have made 10 recommendations and, given the time available to me, I will focus on our main concerns.

This is the first Bill to be introduced this Senedd, so I think it is important to reflect the Finance Committee's view that the regulatory impact assessment accompanying the legislation should be a key tool for the Welsh Government to critically assess a range of methods and to provide an evidence-based approach to policy-making decisions. If, during our scrutiny work, we identify that further financial information is required that causes significant changes to the costs of Bills, we will ask Ministers to appear before the committee again to consider those changes fully. As a committee, we intend to hold the Welsh Government to account on these issues, and this view is reflected in our first recommendation.

At present, the Higher Education Funding Council for Wales regulates and provides funding for higher education, whilst the Welsh Government does so for the other tertiary education sectors. The committee acknowledges that the new commission created by the legislation will combine these activities into one body to try and achieve a coherent learning pathway, and we hope this will achieve better education outcomes for learners. However, we are disappointed that the savings and benefits of the Bill have not been quantified in the RIA, particularly as this work is intended to be undertaken in the next six to nine months. It is unclear why the Minister didn’t carry out this work prior to the Bill being introduced. We recommend that a fuller explanation of the benefits of this legislation is provided and when these benefits are expected to be delivered. We heard what the Minister said today and the committee will review any information that he will present to us.

The new commission will be an arm's-length body with wide-ranging powers, with a significant budget in excess of £500 million per year. The costs of establishing the commission are based on a 10-year period, with the RIA stating that the benefits of the Bill are most likely to be realised in the medium to long term. During scrutiny, the committee identified the three largest financial risks associated with this Bill, which are the location of the commission, the number of commission staff, and the IT costs. It's very concerning that a plus or minus 30 per cent variance figure has been allowed for costs in the Bill, which could mean a difference of £60 million, from £198.5 million to up to £258 million, over the 10-year period. We find this variance to be completely unacceptable. Whilst the Minister said that the 30 per cent range does not apply to all items of cost, no effort has been made to differentiate where this range applies, therefore it is difficult for us to understand where the key risks really lie.

The Minister has confirmed that a strategy and implementation group with stakeholders from across the sector will be established to work through some of these issues, but it's disappointing that the cost element has not been further progressed. We recommend that the Minister undertakes further work on the costs and updates the RIA to demonstrate, for clarity, to which costs the plus or minus 30 per cent variance applies.

In relation to the location of the commission, we recognise that the pandemic has created a more difficult environment to choose a suitable location, given the future uncertainties in ways of working post pandemic, as well as the volatility of the property market and availability of suitable premises. However, given its interdependency with other costs, the committee recommends that further work should be undertaken on a location strategy and its financial impact as a matter of priority.

Staff costs are the biggest expense for the new commission, totalling just under £13 million a year from 2023-24. Of that £13 million, the Minister confirmed that £3.3 million is a new cost, whilst the remaining £9.7 million relates to existing HEFCW and Welsh Government staffing. The Minister subsequently provided a further breakdown of costs, which I thank him for, however this information should have been available in the RIA on introduction. The committee recommends that the Minister provides information on the strategy and implementation group's consideration of the commission's location and staffing numbers, including details of any financial impacts arising from the group's work. 

The largest element of the transitional costs is £4.9 million for IT. This is based on the assumption that, between April this year and September next year, eight IT consultants will be hired, at a cost of £900 per day, to assist in transferring HEFCW systems and data to the new commission. We note the Minister's view that some IT costs would be incurred regardless of the reform, for upgrading existing systems. We therefore recommend that the Minister provides further information relating to the financial impact of using IT consultants.

In addition, the regulatory impact assessment fails to outline costs to other bodies arising from the Bill, noting they are 'unknown at present.' However, the Bill is likely to require the post-compulsory education and training sector to alter their activities in certain areas. It is fundamental that an RIA assesses the impact of legislation on both the Welsh Government and other bodies. It is disappointing that this has not been included, and, to rectify this, we recommend that the Minister reassesses the costs associated with other bodies in consultation with the stakeholders affected.

Llywydd, whilst we recognise there will be ongoing consultation with stakeholders during the passage of Bills, as I mentioned at the start, the committee stresses the importance that the cost assessments of Bills are complete on introduction, not only to ensure proper scrutiny can be undertaken by this Senedd, but also to ensure that the resource implications are fully understood by the stakeholders impacted by the Bill. The costs for stakeholders should be a key consideration that forms part of the Welsh Government’s options appraisal. It is disappointing that more work was not undertaken in this area prior to the Bill’s introduction, and I hope that this practice will not continue in future Bills. Thank you very much.

Obviously, we too would like to join the Minister and the Chair of CYPE in thanking everyone who's contributed and played their part in getting the Bill to this point today. Welsh education is at a crucial juncture, and the tertiary education and research Bill, which we are generally in support of the principles, along with the new curriculum and relationships and sexuality education, are seismic changes and will now provide the groundwork for the next generation of Welsh education. So, it is imperative that we get this right first time round. This is a long, complex process, and I'd like to thank the Chair of CYPE, Jayne Bryant, for the way that she's conducted proceedings in the committee so far, and also the other Chairs who have contributed today, and the committees. And also the Minister for answering our questions so honestly. So, thank you. All this, I'm pleased to say has been—. I'm pleased to see that it has been brought to the Chamber today to ensure that the Bill is on the right path. And I'd like to thank you already, Minister, for the amendments that you've already outlined that you're committed to change. Even though I've been concerned about the pace, obviously, that this has been brought about, I think the priority now needs to be, as has been said, on making it good legislation. Therefore, I'd also like to extend my thanks to all those who have given evidence, and, in large part, as the Chair of CYPE said earlier, it has been generally in support of the Bill, although with some welcome constructive criticism along the way.

As you know, this is a huge change. For the first time in Welsh legislation, the Bill will ensure the following are all in one place: Wales's higher and further education, school sixth forms maintained by local authorities, apprenticeships, adult community learning, as well as the responsibility for research and innovation. The Bill will create and give a new commission powers to shape tertiary education and research in Wales, and really help to build a stronger future economy and provide greater cohesion across the sector, which we all, I'm sure, want to see, and between compulsory and post-compulsory education within schools, which is an added factor that we welcome.

The commission is likely to be a large and complex organisation, with a remit that covers a wide-ranging sector, so, Minister, it appears crucial to me that we ensure the commission's governance reflects the breadth of education provision and research and the diversity of Wales, which you kindly recognised earlier. For example, increasing the worker and learner representation on the commission, as Jayne Bryant outlined earlier—hopefully, you can assure us today that that is something that you are looking to do.

And that's not all, Minister. I believe that you must define what the Bill means by 'parity of esteem', with specific—that's my word I can't do—recommendations for the Bill to include a balanced funding duty, to ensure certain parts of post-16 sectors are not lost. Alongside this, we need to make sure that this Bill protects learner and student welfare, putting the voice of learners and students at the heart of the commission's decision making, as Jayne Bryant outlined, again, earlier, and include a strategic duty to provide collaboration and competitiveness in research and innovation. So, Minister, how do you intend to make sure the voices of learners and students are placed at the heart of the commission in this Bill?

During the Committee Stage of the Bill, it became apparent to me and many others that you need to put in place safeguards around the commission's independence from Government, for example, through amendments to ensure the Minister cannot change the commission's strategic plan without the commission's agreement. Minister, to be truly successful, this needs to be an arm's-length body. The Bill still leaves a significant amount of control to Welsh Ministers—I do thank you for acknowledging that earlier, Minister—for example, the option of approving the commission's strategic plan with modifications. Welsh Ministers are obliged to consult the commission before they modify its plan, but there is no compulsion for both sides to agree. In order for the commission to be credible, it needs to be independent to be trusted. Thanks for recognising these concerns earlier, but I still don't think that they go far enough.

You have touched on this today, but to help stakeholders better understand the purpose of powers retained by Welsh Government, it would be beneficial, Minister, in either future scrutiny or via Plenary if you could set out the distinction between the role of Welsh Ministers and that of the commission and, importantly, how any difference of opinion may be resolved. So, Minister, how are you going to guarantee that independence and allay those fears, please?

I have also concerns about the implementation of the Bill. Evidence from the Higher Education Funding Council for Wales, or HEFCW as we know it, highlights a clear risk to the implementation of the Bill's provision without clear plans in place for a vast range of operational matters required to ensure the commission's success. Minister, there isn't really much detail on how the Bill will work with the regulations. We need information on these regulations before the Stage 2 proceedings begin. Will this information be provided and will it be before Stage 2?

Minister, as you know, a great deal of the success of this legislation will depend on its implementation. Currently, the commission is due to be established in 2023. Could the Minister provide an update on what he expects to be in place at that point and what steps have been taken to prepare for implementation? I look forward to playing my part in bringing this Bill and making sure it is the best it can be for our learners in Wales. We thank you and we will be supporting this motion today.

I'm pleased to contribute to the debate on behalf of Plaid Cymru and also as a member of the Children, Young People, and Education Committee, and I'm pleased to note that Plaid Cymru and stakeholders are generally supportive of this Bill, although everyone involved in the scrutiny process had their areas that they wanted to amend. But I'd like to thank the Minister for the open way in which he has worked with and responded to feedback and recommendations.

I would like to focus, however, on certain areas where Plaid Cymru believes that further amendment is required. The first is the strategic duty to promote Welsh-medium provision. I was pleased to hear from the Minister this afternoon that he acknowledges that the committee's recommendation on that strategic duty to promote tertiary education through the medium of Welsh was convincing and that he wanted to respond to the concerns raised by stakeholders.

The duty was welcomed, of course, but there were valid concerns about the wording of the duty and the use of the term 'reasonable demand' in relation to Welsh-medium provision. Questions were raised by the Coleg Cymraeg Cenedlaethol and the late Welsh Language Commissioner, because the term is weak, dated and needs to be strengthened, and the concept of reasonable demand would lead to a lack of progress. Although the Minister has stated that he wants the commission to respond to reasonable demand, which goes beyond meeting that demand only, and he also mentioned that he wanted to push the level of the provision, I look forward to further discussions during Stage 2 on the detail of how this is reflected in practical terms in the Bill in order to ensure wording that is in keeping with the letter and spirit of the 'Cymraeg 2050' strategy.

One of the aspects of the Bill as it stands that perhaps has caused most concern for stakeholders relates to sixth forms. The commission will be able to give direction in certain circumstances that sixth forms in schools should be established or abolished. Now, many stakeholders were concerned that these responsibilities could lead to the removal of local accountability for this unique element of education provision, undermining the role of local authorities and their schools as providers of tertiary education.

The Coleg Cymraeg Cenedlaethol and others stated that sixth forms in many areas are the only places in which post-16 learners can access full Welsh-medium provision. There were calls to ensure within the Bill that consideration of the impact on the language locally and on the delivery of the 'Cymraeg 2050' strategy should be taken into account by the Bill. I hear what's been said on reliance on current provision within and beyond the Bill in order to safeguard this central element of Welsh-medium education and the Welsh language strategy. However, when it comes to the issue of the Welsh language, you need the clearest defence, the most robust legislative framework, the most prominent precedent and an incontrovertible aim. And, in accepting the general principles today, there will be further opportunities during Stage 2 to give more detailed attention to the need for further amendments to the Bill in this regard, hopefully.

Moving on then to the relationship of the commission with the Coleg Cymraeg Cenedlaethol, the coleg has noted the duties of the commission in relation to the Welsh language and has stated that most of those duties are within the remit of the coleg and that there is a need for greater clarity on those areas of joint responsibility, suggesting that it would be beneficial to have more direct participation by the coleg in planning processes and that funding responsibilities should be devolved to the coleg. I therefore welcome the fact that the Minister is to provide greater clarity in this regard, and I look forward to hearing the detail from him as to how this important relationship will be reflected more robustly in the Bill.

Trade unions have made calls for a strategic duty on social partnership and fair work to be added to the Bill, given that it would line up with all the aims of the Bill. They made it clear to us in committee that it was important for specific reference to be made in this Bill, rather than relying solely on the expected social partnership and public procurement (Wales) Bill, as it would reinforce that social partnerships apply across the tertiary education sector. I'm glad, therefore, to hear the Minister reiterate today that which he stated to the committee, that the commission would be subject to the full range of social partnership and fair work duties that will be contained in that legislation, and that he will explore the recommendation on social partnership further. In line with the position of the unions and the committee, Plaid Cymru would urge the Minister to guarantee this by adding this extra strategic duty to the Bill.

And, finally, over recent weeks, the Minister will be aware that there have been many policy proposals from Westminster, which included a proposal to limit qualification for student funding in a way that would impact access to opportunities for tertiary education. I'd therefore like to know what's been planned by the Minister to ensure that any changes in England do not have an impact on plans for tertiary education in Wales. Specifically, how will opportunities for people, whatever their background, be safeguarded? Thank you.

This is a very interesting debate on a very important subject. My constituency has three universities in it, so it's very important that we get this right, not just for individual areas but also for the whole of Wales, because obviously we need to ensure that we have the best possible tertiary sector to take us forward in these very challenging sets of circumstances.

The University of Oxford, the University of Cambridge, the Catholic University of Louvain in Belgium, the University of Helsinki in Finland and Mondragon University in Spain all have one thing in common: they all have democratic governance. They all meet Tony Benn's five tests of democratic accountability for those at the very top of their universities: what power have you got, where did you get it from, in whose interests do you exercise it, to whom are you accountable, and, most importantly, how can we get rid of you. So, it's obviously important to ask how does this Bill address the governance and the strengthening of the governance of our universities, given some of the quite high-profile problems that there have been in many of our universities, and ensuring that universities have the very best leadership with the widest range of expertise to go with it.

Over the weekend, I chaired a meeting in Llandudno that was all about remote working. There was an excellent presentation by Professor Alan Felstead of Cardiff University, which set out the complexity of the decisions that any university is having to make in our post-pandemic world, and on top of which we have a climate emergency looming. So, for example, is it right to go on building lots more buildings when many students are going to be working remotely from home for a lot of their work, as are the tutors? So, how do we prevent us building white elephants when we're not absolutely certain about the way in which we're going to be both studying and working in the future?

We need to ensure that we have the best possible governance and that we don't make decisions that can, potentially, bring universities down. For example, Aberystwyth University made some pretty disastrous investments in a campus in Mauritius, costing them about £1 million, based on an assumption that there would be very large numbers of students wanting to enrol. And when that didn't happen, it potentially could have been very serious for the future of the university. Happily, they've recovered, but practically every university you can think of has had some really challenging problems to face in the past.

So, I want to understand how this Bill is aligned with the social partnership and procurement Bill that we're going to be scrutinising in due course, and what the Welsh Government means by 'regulating with autonomy'. I'm struggling to see where we go in the explanatory memorandum. We've got quite a lot of information about the governance of the commission for tertiary education, but I'm not at all clear how this might improve the governance of our universities in the sense of that critical friend that all democratic institutions need to have, in order to ensure the consideration of the full range of views that take into account the interests of staff, students and the wider community. So, how is this Bill going to ensure that universities have the very best governance? And what is the role that you think the commission is going to have? It's clear that you want the commission to improve our research institutions and their reputation, but it's not at all clear how they're going to do that if we don't address the governance of universities.

Contrary to some of the opening remarks of Sioned Williams, I don't think there was anything near unanimity in the sector among stakeholders on the need for this Bill, and I encountered, through discussion, many stakeholders who said to me that a Bill really isn't necessary to achieve what you want to achieve. But then, you either commission a report by Ellen Hazelkorn and listen to it, or you don't. The Hazelkorn report, which was published on 1 March 2016, was very clear that legislation would be needed in order to provide a seamless education sector prepared for 2030, and I think the Government has rightly taken the decision to listen to the recommendations of that report in creating this Bill. And I think, actually, this Bill would have been introduced a lot sooner in the previous Senedd had it not been for Diamond, for Donaldson and the pandemic. We would have seen this Bill introduced, perhaps in a slightly different form, by a different Member of a different political party, but it would have happened, had it not been for those things.

So, I think the Minister, taking on this challenge, has indeed had a challenge, and it is a credit to his reasoned ability to listen, to engage, and to link with stakeholders in that the discontent that may have been out there has somewhat ebbed and now we are seeing practical engagement from the sector with this Bill. And I can say, as chair of the cross-party group on universities, that the Minister attended a rigorous, hour-long question-and-answer session with stakeholders, and answered every single question he was asked, and there were a lot of them. I was impressed by the detail in which he provided those answers, and I can see, in the response he gave in his opening statement today, that many of those questions have been answered by him, and that is a very positive thing to see.

So, first of all, in relation to research and innovation, he said in his opening remarks that amendments would be introduced to strengthen the duty of research and innovation in the Bill. He said that there would be amendments to strengthen institutional autonomy. I'd be interested to hear whether that would be a general duty or whether that would be specific amendments, and I think we need to see what those amendments would be.

And I think I understood that the power to dissolve certain types of institutions, those higher education corporations, would not be part of the Bill. So, can I just have some clarification there? Because what you could end up doing is that higher education corporations could be dissolved without the consent of those institutions, whereas other types of institutions wouldn't be subject to that. So, is he actually going to remove that power from the Bill, or is there another way of amending it?

Again, as a member of the cross-party group, there remain questions about this registration system, which have been raised already, particularly by the committee Chairs. In particular, is it the intention for the commission to be able to set different registration conditions for individual providers? And is there any risk that this could lead to institutions being treated differently or unfairly? So, that's a key question that I'd like the Minister to answer in his response.

Finally, I'll come to Jenny Rathbone's remarks. I met with the University and College Union representatives, who raised that issue of democratisation of individual institutions as well. I wonder whether the Minister might be interested in meeting with UCU representatives to talk about that, and perhaps myself and Jenny Rathbone might want to have a meeting with him to talk about this issue of democratisation. It's an interesting one, particularly Tony Benn's fifth test: how do we get rid of you? It would be an interesting thing to see vice-chancellors wondering whether their governing bodies were going to be asking that question, 'How do we get rid of you?' And I think it's something that anyone in power should fear that very question, as we all do, and have just done in an election that we faced last year.

So, these are some key questions that the Minister's gone some way to answering. Once again, I thank him for his positive approach, and also all the work that the committees have done in probing those amendments. But what I can see across the Chamber is a general positive approach to this Bill, which does seem to be commanding support, and I think that is a credit to the Minister. 

The Minister now to reply to the debate. 

Diolch, Llywydd, and I'm grateful to the Members for their constructive and thoughtful comments today. I'll endeavour to respond to as many points as I can, but I'm not sure I'll be able to repeat the comprehensive nature of the responses that Hefin David kindly referred to in his contribution. 

Jayne Bryant spoke about the need for a stronger and more robust sector, which this Bill contributes to, and the need for legislation in order to do that. I'm grateful to her for that remark and for her welcome to the Bill. In relation to the point she made regarding composition, this is a matter that is important to me, and she will know that provision is in the Bill to ensure that the range of skills and experience that appears across all part of the sector will be a requirement for Ministers to engage with when making appointments. In relation to the ambition that she described around associate membership, I will look at the context of the explanatory memorandum about how we can make clear our expectations and ambitions as a Government in that space.

She made some important points in relation to strategic duties. Some of them were echoed by Laura Jones and by Sioned Williams as well, and I hope that the responses I gave at the start will give each of those three Members some assurance.

Thank you to Sioned Williams for acknowledging that the wording of the duty in terms of the Welsh language, in my view at least, encourages the commission to be ambitious, but of course we accept that there is an opportunity to look again at that.

In relation to the question about the provision of regulations during scrutiny of the Bill, there is a requirement here, I think, to make sure that the regulations both allow stakeholders the opportunity to fully engage with what is proposed, and also for the regulations to reflect refinements made to the legislation as it is being passed through this Chamber. So, that will be context, I think, for the response that we've given in relation to that point. 

Alun Davies made a number of points in relation to the scrutiny arrangements for the Senedd in relation to the Bill. Some of the recommendations I will be able to accept, some of them I'm considering at the moment, and we'll be able to write more fully to the committee in relation to that in due course. On the question of regulation through registration, I hope that the points I made in my opening speech gave some assurance in relation to that. The statement of policy intention sets out the Government's policy in relation to that, and I hope again that provides some context for the response to the recommendation. I can give him an assurance that I will be updating the equality impact assessment to which he referred in his remarks.

Peredur Owen Griffiths, in relation to the Finance Committee's concerns, I will be updating the regulatory impact assessment after Stage 2. He was good enough to refer to my evidence in relation to the variance, and he will recall that I was making a point about the prudence of providing the maximum possible costs in relation to those items. I can confirm that the strategy and implementation group has already been established and has already met, but it will not look at the detailed operational points that he was making in his contribution, for the simple reason that those are decisions that the commission itself will need to and is entitled to make in due course. 

In relation to the other contributions, I just want to say in relation to the points Laura Jones was making on implementation that we will be providing further information to the committee around implementation plans. As she knows, my intention is for the commission to be established in 2023 but for the responsibilities to be acquired during that year, 2024 and perhaps even to the start of 2025. But we'll be able to provide more information in relation to that. 

Sioned Williams made very important points in relation to sixth forms, Coleg Cymraeg Cenedlaethol and social partnership, and I hope that the points I made in my opening speech have gone some way, at least, to reassuring her on those points. 

Both Jenny Rathbone and Hefin David made points in relation to governance. I can assure Jenny Rathbone that assurance on governance will be an important part of the registration regime. In relation to the point that Hefin David made about differential registration criteria, I think that exists in order to give the commission flexibility to ensure parity of outcomes, even when those require different ways of responding to individual circumstances.

I hope Members found that helpful, and I hope Members will feel able to support the general principles of the Bill.

The proposal is to agree the motion. Does any Member object? No, there is no objection, therefore the motion is agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Motion agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.