Item 4 is next, which is a statement by the Counsel General and Minister for the Constitution—the Historic Environment (Wales) Bill. I call on the Counsel General, Mick Antoniw.

Thank you, Dirprwy Lywydd. Today marks another historic step in our nation’s law-making journey. This is the first consolidation Bill brought forward as part of the Welsh Government's programme to improve the accessibility of Welsh law. With this legislation, we continue the process of creating a Welsh statute book. As a consolidation Bill, this Bill marks the beginning of an ambitious project to bring order to our legislation. This is a long-term programme, but I hope all involved will see that the Historic Environment (Wales) Bill illustrates the many benefits that producing modern, bilingual legislation bespoke to Wales will deliver.

Consolidation involves bringing the pertinent legislation on a topic together, clarifying its structure and adopting more understandable forms of drafting and language. Here, the main Acts on the historic environment have been brought together, along with provisions from other relevant Acts and secondary instruments. The law has been re-presented within a logical structure and, wherever possible, restated in simple, everyday language. Furthermore, the Bill and its supporting documentation are fully bilingual in Welsh and English.

The Historic Environment (Wales) Bill includes around 200 pages, and it's one of the largest pieces of legislation introduced to this Chamber to date. This represents a considerable achievement.

Consolidation is not a mechanical exercise of simply copying existing provisions into a new Bill with an occasional tweak. Rather, the current law has been carefully examined to understand its intent and application so it can be restated without altering its effect. Unlike most legislation that comes before this Chamber, this is not a reform Bill; it does not change policy. So, its success must be evaluated by reference to the extent to which it improves the structure and clarity of the existing law, while preserving its legal effect.

The examination of the existing law highlighted some minor problems and, to address them, changes have been made in line with what is permitted by the Senedd's Standing Order on consolidation Bills. This work has been summarised in the drafter's notes. Tables of origins and destinations have also been produced, primarily to help Members understand where the new law has come from and, conversely, where the existing law has gone to. If the Bill becomes law, these will remain a resource for the future on the UK's free-to-access legislation website, legislation.gov.uk. 

I should thank the Law Commission for England and Wales for their positive engagement with the legislative process in Wales. The commission's report, 'Planning Law in Wales', which is shaping the current planning consolidation, has also been taken into account in the Historic Environment (Wales) Bill. We are also grateful that, at the Welsh Government's request, the Law Commission made four recommendations for changes to this Bill that it considered appropriate in a consolidation Bill. This is again consistent with what is allowed under the Standing Order.

I also draw your attention to the first section of the Bill, which states that it forms part of a code of law relating to the historic environment of Wales. Alongside consolidation, codification provides a tool to create and maintain order in the Welsh law book. If passed by the Senedd, this legislation, together with the associated subordinate legislation, will form a code of Welsh law on the historic environment. This means that the law will all be published together as a code and, in future, any desire to move away from the organisational structure created would have to be justified by the Member in charge. Since this is the first consolidation Bill to come before the Senedd, I know that the Welsh Government and the Senedd will take careful note of its progress and will learn from this process to benefit future consolidation Bills.

So, to close, I present to you the Historic Environment (Wales) Bill and encourage you to support a Bill that will give Wales modern, accessible and bilingual law for the protection and management of our unique and precious historic environment. Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd.

Diolch yn fawr. Thank you very much for your statement. Of course, we welcome measures to introduce, in the terminology used, modern, accessible and bilingual law for the purpose stated. But, of course, often, the devil is in the detail. So, in your written statement yesterday on the introduction of the Historic Environment (Wales) Bill to this Senedd, you stated that you've 

'identified Wales’ historic environment law as a suitable subject for the first project in an ambitious programme of legislative consolidation.'

Can you therefore confirm for the record—and you partially did so, but not wholly, in your introduction—that this is only a consolidation Bill and that the law itself, not just policy, will not be changed or amended to accommodate this? If it will be changed or amended—the law, specifically—in any way, I'd be grateful if you could specify how.

As I noted here last September, when responding to your statement on the accessibility of Welsh law:

'The Legislation (Wales) Act was all about gathering law into different subject filing cabinets, with a headline statute and everything else made with reference to that statute—a huge undertaking designed to help the public find and use law themselves.'

So, to what extent will this consolidation Bill complement or succeed this and what capacity do you and your department have to administer the potentially significant undertaking involved?

In your statement yesterday, you noted that:

'Our current historic environment legislation has become a confusing jumble of repeatedly amended provisions.' 

And, of course, our current history itself has become a confusing jumble of facts, truths, myths and misconceptions. Last September, you quoted from the Book of Iorwerth, a text of the Gwynedd or Venedotian code of medieval Welsh law, where the kingdom of Gwynedd, or Venedotia, was a Roman empire successor state that emerged in sub-Roman Britain in the fifth century. Of course, other texts remind us that the goal of the Brythonic people, or Britons, in the west, then and over succeeding centuries, was also to reclaim the lost lands in the east and reunite with their British brethren across our island. Later texts remind us of how Norman invaders brutalised Britons across our island and established new codes of law. How will you, therefore, ensure that, in consolidating Wales's historic environment legislation, this often confused, complex and vital historic record is retained and clarified?

When we were taking evidence on the Historic Environment (Wales) Bill—now Act—in the Communities, Equality and Local Government Committee in 2015, one of my questions to the then Deputy Minister for Culture, Sport and Tourism referred to concerns raised with us that the proposals had, quote,

'enormous implications for capacity and resources’, adding that this replicated

'concerns raised on other legislation...where, whatever the intent of the legislation, the cost identified...is far higher than that indicated in the explanatory memorandum.'

I therefore repeat my questions to you when I responded to your statement on accessibility of Welsh law last September: what is the total financial cost of this programme of legislative consolidation, and what assurance can you provide that this is not just something that will benefit the legal sector at great cost to the public purse? And finally, what consultation have you had with the historic environment sector itself regarding this Bill?

Can I thank you for those questions? I also welcome the journey through our history, which is always of considerable interest. 

The legislation, this consolidation Bill—. Just, firstly, to deal with the issue of reform, you're absolutely right, this particular Bill is not there to change the law, to reform the law. What it does mean, of course, is, though, that, once legislation is consolidated, it makes the whole process of reform a lot easier, because it has all the law, all the relevant laws, in one particular place, and therefore amendments and changes that might be made by way of reform that might come at a later stage, have a far easier job themselves. So, it is far easier to reform and change a law in the future, but that builds on the process of consolidation itself. And, of course, it leads, as you say, as you quite rightly identified, to a better organisation of the law, because this is a long-term process that will carry on for many years, where we seek to codify the law, to bring the law from various areas—instead of it being scattered in a whole variety of different areas—into one place in a codified manner. And that again not only means that accessibility is better, it makes the law simpler and easier to understand, but it also means that when reform is required, it can take place in a far more, I believe, constructive and simpler way.

The consolidation brings in a number of pieces of legislation that go back well before devolution, but as you'll see from section 1 of the Bill, which provides an overview, it sets out, really, what the legislation contains, but also what the objective and what the purpose of the consolidation is and how that will operate. So, the Standing Orders that we work to allow us to restate the law; they allow us to clarify the law; to remove those obsolete pieces of legislation, bits of legislation that really have no relevance; it can make minor changes where they're necessary—I mean, sometimes in terms of the gendered nature of some of the older legislation; and, of course, making some changes recommended by the Law Commission that are appropriate for consolidation. It can also effectively exclude obsolete, spent or bits of past legislation that have no practical purpose—some pieces that have never ever been implemented.

So, it brings together the Historic Buildings and Ancient Monuments Act 1953. It doesn't quite go back as far as the areas that you covered in your speech—I think that's completely understandable. It brings together Parts I and III of the Ancient Monuments and Archaeological Areas Act 1979. It brings together bits of the Planning (Listed Buildings and Conservation Areas) Act 1990 and Part 4 of the Historic Environment (Wales) Act 2016, and it restates certain bits of legislation that are relevant to this area in respect of town and country planning, planning and compulsory purchase.

And, in presenting the Bill, of course, as well as the explanatory memorandum, there are tables that basically set out and identify where the various bits of legislation have come from. But, as I say, this is not about reforming or changing the law; it's about bringing the existing law into a single place, and that will be the challenge. This is a test and, as has been identified already by the First Minister, this is the first of these pieces of consolidation legislation. It shouldn't impact in terms of any issues in terms of the historic record, because all it is doing is bringing forward those parts of legislation that are already in existence.

And in terms of the concerns that have been raised previously with regard to whether there are complex implications in terms of resources and capacity and so on, I think the exact opposite is the effect. I think this actually simplifies matters. Certainly, we wouldn't want to bring a consolidation Bill that actually made things more complex or incurred additional cost, and in actual fact, this should be something that actually reduces costs. It makes it easier for lawyers to understand, it makes it easier for those who practise within the area, or who engage with the area of historic environment, to operate more efficiently, more simply and with less cost.

And with regard to, I suppose, the point you're making about those organisations, such as Cadw, for example—the historic environment organisations—of course this consolidation Bill is not appropriate for a consultation in the same way as reforming legislation, because what you're doing is really just talking about bringing the existing legislation into one place, but there was a working party that was brought together of relevant bodies to really look at the legislation and to be satisfied with the overall direction of that. Certainly, all the indications I have are that that is something that is very much supported, that this consolidation Bill is very much welcomed by those in the historic environment arena, that they are in the process themselves of making changes to actually put on their websites the legislation and the changes that take place. So, I hope that has answered all the key points that you've raised.

Rhys ab Owen. Rhys, you're not unmuted yet, hang on.

Thank you very much, Dirprwy Lywydd. Counsel General, could I begin by echoing the comments of Lord Justice Green, the chair of the Law Commission, and congratulate the Welsh Government on this important step in making Welsh law more accessible? Now, maybe this is not of interest to everyone, but I'm very excited about this important step. This is a step that's going to transform the law in Wales. And responding to the point made by Mark Isherwood, of course, effective consolidation obviously has clear benefits for the legal profession and it also has clear benefits for us as parliamentarians and for you, Counsel General, as a Government, but also, more importantly, obvious benefits for the citizens of Wales.

As the first consolidation Bill in Welsh law, it's very important that we ensure that we get it right, and I look forward, Counsel General, to working with you and to scrutinising the Bill as a member of the legislation committee. I think that as a young legislature, we have a great opportunity in Wales to ensure that our law is as accessible as possible. We're not like Westminster, which goes back to the twelfth century; Welsh law is young, so we have an opportunity to consolidate and to codify in a way that's almost impossible in Westminster. This also shows that Welsh law is maturing, that we have a living system of law for the first time since the Acts of Union.

The Legislation (Wales) Act 2019 places a legal duty on the Welsh Government to make the law accessible and clear, and to provide for codification. In that regard, Counsel General, you are part of a very worthy lineage. It was nice, as Mark Isherwood said, to see a quote in the explanatory memorandum from the introduction to the Book of Iorwerth in 1240, which mentioned the law of Hywel Dda from the tenth century. But it was even nicer, perhaps, Counsel General, to see that that quote had been modernised into the understandable, modern Welsh language of our time.

'And by the common counsel and agreement...they examined the old laws, and some of them they allowed to continue, others they amended, others they wholly deleted, and others they laid down anew.'

Excellent. I think it's important that we remind ourselves time and time again of the rich legal tradition that we have here in Wales, and be inspired by our history to ensure that Welsh law is fit for the modern age.

Today's announcement, as I said, is an important step forward in codifying the law. I've seen all kinds of talk about timetables for codification. One quote said that it was going to be the work of an entire generation. Do you have any timetable in mind, Counsel General, for how long the codification process will take and what's the timetable for the other consolidation Bills?

And to finish, Dirprwy Lywydd, following an obvious reduction in legal aid, we need law that is drafted in an understandable way and is organised in such a way that the relevant law is all in one place, and people don't have to look in different places. This is a huge task, as you said. This Bill and the explanatory memorandum in both languages are more than 500 pages long. I congratulate you again, Counsel General, in the hope that this is going to be the first of many, many such Bills to appear before us as a Senedd. Thank you very much.

I thank the Member for those comments, and I look forward to working with all Members, and particularly with the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee who will be scrutinising this particular piece of legislation. Of course, it will not have gone unnoticed that this is not a piece of legislation that is sort of amended in the normal way. That is, the main work will be for the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee basically to be going through the Bill, to be assessing the Bill, the drafting of the Bill, to be looking at the drafter's notes, and to be satisfied that this is doing what it says on the packet—that it is consolidating, and not reforming. And, of course, the amendments, I would expect—I would hope—are minimal, but may really be of technical nature, but, of course, there is the option of a further amending stage.

The other, I think, point that you started to mention was, of course, that this is innovative, that this process of accessibility is to some extent unique within the United Kingdom, within the four nations. There have been examples of attempted consolidation in the past in areas of law, but what has tended to happen is that that then has been subsequently undermined by a series of legislation that then doesn't amend the consolidated legislation and so on—education, probably, is an example, particularly in England. And, of course, 'codification' means by putting law into categories it will be within that code that the law is amended rather than the creation of a new piece of legislation. So, that requires discipline from this Senedd and a commitment to and understanding of the concept of consolidation. We will, in fact, be the first nation in the UK to actually introduce legislation in this area, and perhaps it's very appropriate that it is in the whole area of the historic environment, which is so important to all of us and to all our communities. 

You mentioned the point of language and specific attention has gone during the drafting of this to using simple language, to using language that is modern and understandable, and that undoubtedly is something that will be scrutinised during the process. And, again, as others have done, I have to commend the lawyers and all the officials that have been involved in this process because this is—. In some ways, when we started looking at this, it was, 'Well, what is a quick win for consolidation?' Well, when you get to 200 pages, you suddenly realise that no legislation is ever really that simple, particularly when you're going back over such a long period of time and looking for explanatory memoranda for legislation that never had explanatory memoranda, where there was never any clear background documentation as to what certain parts of the legislation were actually intended to achieve or what they actually meant.

In terms of the codification timetable, well, to some extent, it's almost a generational thing, isn't it, because we have to deal with an enormous legislative programme in its own right, but as you will know from the statement I made last year, we're looking at three pieces of consolidation. We will be looking to move on beyond that into the next session of the next Senedd with further consolidation. So, this is a process that will go on for quite a number of years. What is important is that we have a consistent commitment from Senedd to Senedd that this is the way we want to restructure the law, to make the law accessible over generations. So, this is not a short-term, over-a-couple-of-years process; this is a generational approach to doing law better, to making it more accessible. And the points you made about accessibility, they're ones we've discussed many times, and I fully agree with them.

Finally, Chair of the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee, Huw Irranca-Davies.

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. We thank the Counsel General for his introductory statement and also for adding to our committee's busy scrutiny programme by bringing forward this historic—in more ways than title alone—first consolidation Bill in Wales. Now, the arrival of this first Welsh consolidation Bill has by some been eagerly anticipated, and, in fact, as we've just heard, if there's one word that's been used most by my committee colleagues Rhys, James and Alun in respect of this ambitious agenda, it is this: excitement. Now, this may be a reflection on us as individual legislators, but I would say that it does reflect on us in a very good way. We take this very seriously. As a committee, we understand that there may be more such consolidation Bills under consideration, so the Counsel General will understand that we really want to get the scrutiny of this first one absolutely right.

The Legislation (Wales) Act 2019, scrutinised by our predecessor committee, passed by the fifth Senedd, placed a duty on the Counsel General to keep the accessibility of Welsh law under review. Then, Standing Order 26C for consolidation Acts of the Senedd was subsequently agreed by the fifth Senedd in March 2021, and it established new scrutiny processes in this Senedd. So, here we are with a landmark first consolidation Bill, and it is a large one at that. We truly appreciate the immense amount of work and time that the Welsh Government will have put into preparing this Bill, which has, of course, followed substantial work undertaken by the Law Commission for England and Wales.

In any field, the consolidation of Welsh law is a daunting task, but it is important. It may seem dry, but having an accessible statute book is vitally important to improving access to justice for our citizens. Our committee is regularly faced with matters that highlight the complexities of our statute book. There are many reasons for complexity. The departure of the UK from the European Union is one such event. It has triggered more law being made at a fast and furious pace—law that has often not been neatly or simply drawn. And, more recently, the increasing occurrences of UK Government and UK Parliament making law in devolved areas is adding another layer of complexity onto an already inaccessible statute book.

This is the first time that the Senedd will play a formal, deliberate role in the consolidation of Welsh law, and, as the responsible committee, we are really looking forward to playing our part. We recognise the importance attached to the consolidation of law as it applies in Wales and, equally, we attach great importance to scrutinising this first consolidation Bill diligently and effectively, and in accordance with Standing Order requirements. This is, Counsel General, truly exciting, to use that word again, just to show that our committee does have its moments. It is an exciting step for legislation in Wales, and if we get this right together, Counsel General, we will set an example of good practice for other Parliaments across the UK and further afield. So, we look forward to our scrutiny of the Historic Environment (Wales) Bill, engaging with stakeholders, and with the Counsel General. Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd.

Can I thank the Member for those very supportive comments? I certainly agree with all those comments about the excitement. In fact, I could see the excitement rippling through the Chamber as I stood up to speak and Members exited the room. It's in the very nature of some of these legislative processes that they in themselves do not create a natural excitement, but what they do is create a real excitement about the importance of the way in which we can do law better, clearer, simpler and more accessibly. I think, in terms of our responsibilities to the people of Wales and to this Senedd, to this Parliament, that is of, obviously, considerable importance. The first session I have with the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee, which I look forward to, I believe is on 11 July. I look forward to working with you over what is something that is going to be an important learning experience when we move on to other areas, such as, for example, planning. So, I look forward to that, and thank you for those comments.

I thank the Counsel General.