Item 8, debate on the Climate Change, Environment, and Infrastructure Committee report, 'Report on operation of the interim environmental protection measures'. I call on the Chair of the committee to move the motion. Llyr Gruffydd.

Motion NDM8158 Llyr Gruffydd

To propose that the Senedd:

Notes the Climate Change, Environment and Infrastructure Committee report: ‘Report on operation of the interim environmental protection measures', laid on 28 September 2022.

Motion moved.

Diolch yn fawr, Dirprwy Lywydd. At the start of the sixth Senedd, the committee agreed to scrutinise the ongoing operation of the interim environmental protection measures that we have here in Wales. Members will recall, I'm sure, that these measures were put in place to address widespread concern about the impending environmental governance gap in Wales following the UK's departure from the European Union. The measures provide a mechanism for the public to submit complaints to an independent interim environmental protection assessor about the functioning of environmental law. Having considered any such complaints, the interim assessor then can can recommend the Minister takes action, with a view to making improvements to the law. Our report covers the first full year of the operation of the interim measures and was informed by evidence from key environmental stakeholders and from Dr Nerys Llewelyn Jones, the interim assessor, who appeared before us in June of this year.

As a committee, we made eight recommendations, two to the interim assessor and six to the Welsh Government. They were all accepted in full, so we'd like to thank the Minister and the interim assessor for their positive responses. Although it's still early days for the interim assessor service, we are, and we were indeed, encouraged by how much it has achieved in its first year, and with limited capacity and limited resources as well, actually. While the service has experienced some teething problems, by and large it's managed to overcome these. But there's still room for improvement, of course, as is reflected in our report.

The interim measures fulfil an important function and could, potentially, help improve the working of environmental law. But, of course, they're a far cry from the EU's environmental governance system. This is in no way a criticism of the interim assessor’s performance or the work of the service to date. It is, however, a criticism of the Welsh Government for failing to prioritise legislation in order to establish a fully functioning, well-resourced oversight body for Wales.

As we wait with growing impatience for legislation to be brought forward, all other UK nations now have statutory oversight bodies up and running. Although they might not be perfect, these bodies provide key governance functions of compliance and enforcement, and uphold citizens' rights to access environmental justice. So, Minister, do Wales's citizens not deserve the same? I'm sure they do, and I'm sure you will agree, and I'm sure you will elaborate when you respond. But we cannot have Wales's reputation downgraded from a nation that puts the environment and sustainable development at its heart to one with the weakest environmental governance structures in western Europe.

Now, the Minister has confirmed that the interim assessor's appointment has been extended for a year, up until February 2024. It would be unthinkable for a statutory oversight body not to be in place before then. But, with just over a year to go, and with no evidence of any real progress towards the development of legislative proposals, the feeling is that it isn't looking promising. So, the interim measures seemingly will be in place longer than expected, and, for many, longer than is acceptable. That said, it's important to make the very best out of what we have, and our recommendations in our report were made with this, of course, in mind.

So, briefly then, recommendations 2 and 3 aim to improve public awareness of the service and increase transparency in its work. And we're pleased to hear that the interim assessor has already made progress in taking these forward.

Turning to our recommendations for the Welsh Government, recommendation 5 calls for an urgent review of the resources available to the interim assessor, reflecting on the high demand for the service and the need to deliver timely outputs in the form of reports. The Minister has accepted this recommendation, which is very much a good start. As made clear in our report, the review must be completed sooner rather than later. Hopefully, Minister, you can give us an indication of how this work is progressing as you respond to this debate.

Moving on to the process of dealing with reports by the interim assessor, we’re concerned that this lacks clarity. While we acknowledge the Welsh Government is under no obligation to formally respond to the assessor’s reports and recommendations, it really must commit to doing this. We consider a clearly defined process is essential to ensure transparency, to strengthen accountability and to build public confidence, of course, in the interim measures. Recommendations 6 and 7 in our report address this issue.

Finally, we asked the Welsh Government to explain how it’s monitoring the effectiveness of the interim measures, including their impact on environmental outcomes. The short answer is that it’s not. So, Minister, how will you know what success looks like unless suitable monitoring arrangements are in place to measure it?

Members will see that our recommendations are very much about fine tuning the interim measures to ensure they are the best they can be. But we are clear that no matter how effective these measures may be, they are no substitute for a permanent environmental oversight body. We'll continue, of course, to press the Welsh Government on this issue throughout the remainder of this Senedd term. Diolch.

I take my hat off to our Chairman, Llyr Gruffydd, for saying what needed to be said—that the interim assessor does not fulfil the role at all of the kind of environmental governance that we need here in Wales. 

I'm pleased that the Welsh Government has chosen to accept all eight recommendations contained within the report—I guess I'd have been surprised if you hadn't. I do note that the interim assessor has promised that in relation to recommendation 3, she will publish updates on the service's rolling work programme on a quarterly basis. I also note that recommendations 6 and 7 state that the Welsh Government should commit to publishing responses to interim assessor reports no later than six weeks following receipt and that the Senedd should be notified by a written statement. I for one certainly look forward to that timetable being upheld. 

Certainly, during the evidence session, in my recollection—I can remember it distinctly—it became very clear to me that this role doesn't fulfil at all the level of environmental governance that is required. There needs to be this prioritisation of legislation. To be fair to the interim assessor, in her own words, she felt it wasn't her role to deal with complaints. She felt that there were certain things that she shouldn't get involved with—resource issues. I just feel that, really, the role of the interim assessor has been more of a tick-box exercise for the Welsh Government.

We need a permanent framework here in Wales, especially on a subject that's so important to Wales. Dr Llewelyn Jones reported that demand on the service had been greater than anticipated during the first year, with 21 submissions received, covering a wide range of different environmental issues. According to the annual report 2021-22, this clearly demonstrates that there is a high degree of public engagement with the subject of environmental protection and that there's an appetite in Wales to ensure that the law protects the environment here. 

RSPB Cymru commented that the number of submissions indicates that there is a significant concern in Wales regarding the implementation of environmental law. There have also been issues with the website. Members of the environmental sector wrote to the First Minister on this with representatives criticising the interim assessor's website, even, as not easily navigable or even easy to find. RSPB Cymru said that finding the relevant Welsh Government webpage depends on people knowing what to look for online. So, Minister, could you give us some reassurances today that those matters have been addressed and that anybody wanting to seek out the interim assessor can do so? Representatives of the environmental sector also expressed frustration regarding the lack of progress towards developing the new arrangements.

So far, I'm not alone in seeing this as a failing by the Welsh Government to establish strong and lasting arrangements. It even lacks a clear timeline to institute a permanent body. Stakeholders also identified a governance gap due to the narrow nature of the current measures, with the existing measures being described as a long way from what Wales needs. Again, RSPB Cymru said:

'our chief concern is that the work to develop permanent, statutory measures has stalled and there is a risk that the interim measures will be in place longer than the two years originally envisaged by the Welsh Government'.

We're aware of the extension, but I suppose I'm looking for some reassurance here that you are going to move forward with something far stronger than this. They added:

'we are extremely concerned that in Wales there is still no clear timeline' for legislation to establish a permanent oversight body. And despite continuous calls from the committee for the Welsh Government to prioritise legislation to establish a statutory oversight body, there will be no Bill in year 2 of the legislative programme. As our committee makes clear,

'The First Minister’s vague assurance that “the Bill is on its way” does nothing to address our concern...that the statutory oversight body, promised by the Welsh Government in the Fifth Senedd, is still years away.'

This is simply not good enough to meet our environmental commitments, and it does put us behind every other UK nation in failing to have implemented a statutory oversight body. Nineteen months on from the establishment of an interim assessor, it simply doesn't appear that this time has been put to as good a use as it could have been in developing a more lasting framework. 

I won't mention all of the committee's eight recommendations, but I would like to highlight some of them and actions that I wish to see. Firstly, that the Welsh Government should clarify—I suppose I'm asking you, now, Minister, to do this—whether it intends to reappoint the interim—. Oh, well, we've done that. If this is the plan, we need concrete steps to ensure a permanent framework will be in place by then. And also on what merits or criteria did you decide to extend this? The interim assessor should work towards improving the public awareness of the service; the Welsh Government should undertake an urgent review of the resources available to the assessor, and in doing so, it must satisfy itself that the interim assessor is sufficiently resourced, has the right powers to carry out their role and responsibilities effectively—

Janet, you've used your time now. 

In summary, this Welsh Government still has a long way to go in providing reassurance to the environmental sector with the leadership, the direction and certainty that they need. For the sake of future generations, we urgently need a proper framework in place. Diolch.

I won't repeat points that have been made by other Members, but I just want to thank the Chair and colleagues on the committee for the session that they held with the interim assessor, and also to thank the interim assessor as well for coming in front of us and for the evidence that she gave. There's only one significant point of difference that I take with Janet on this, because we did hear in evidence that this isn't a useless role, that there is actually value in it. In fact, Annie Smith of RSPB Cymru said:

'It's not an invalid or invaluable role—it's just completely different, and it is not anything equivalent to having access to environmental justice.'

That goes to the heart of Llyr's comment and also Janet's as well. It may be an interim measure, but it's not unvaluable—it genuinely isn't. And in fact, our report pointed at that and some of the achievements in the period of the interim assessor's role. But I do want to turn to that issue of the governance gap and how we're going to fill it, without repeating in detail some of the points that have been made already. 

The governance gap was a key issue for many of the people who gave evidence to the committee. In welcoming the fact that the Government has actually accepted all of the recommendations, our recommendations were based very much on the interim assessor's current role, et cetera, et cetera, and we kept looking, as did all our stakeholders who gave evidence to us, 'Yes, but what comes next and when does it actually arrive?' That's really what I want to focus my attention on.

There is an assumption that we've made on the committee, which is pulled out actually in our conclusions. It doesn't turn to the recommendations, because the recommendations are very much focused on the current interim assessor role. But in our conclusions, we point very clearly to an assumption that you will have to reappoint the interim assessor, because it's running out of time, and we don't have a new body to come forward to actually give us that environmental justice, citizens' justice role there. So, it would be good to get that clarity today, but then to also get that clarity that during that period, if you are going to reappoint for an extension, we will see the proposals brought forward.

Minister, I don't share the scepticism—that perhaps has been a little bit expressed by other colleagues—that you don't want to do this. I know you do want to do this; I know that there is legislative pressure—we get that as well—but the fact is, in our observation as a committee, we've got an assessor that was set up for two years on an interim basis; we're going to have to extend it. Are we going to see the proposal for the new governance structure on environmental law brought forward in that timescale? If not, are we going to reappoint again?

I think the impatience that's reflected in the report is around just getting that clarity. And it's not just clarity that we're asking for, Minister; I know all the environmental groups out there are asking for the same. They have confidence you want to deliver this; they just want certainty of when it is going to happen. Diolch.

This subject, at first, if someone sees it just written on a piece of paper what we're going to be talking about, may seem dry and technical, but in fact, all of the richness of our natural world is contained in it. Without robust and proper environmental protection, all of us will be impoverished in ways probably that we can't even begin to imagine.

The context of this has been well rehearsed already by other Members of the committee. I would, of course, add my thanks to the committee Chair and to the fantastic committee team and to the interim assessor. I know that it's going to be difficult for the interim assessor maybe hearing some of this, but I would just add to the point that's already been made: this is in no way a criticism of anyone who's actually fulfilling this function at present, it's about the situation that's got us to where we're at, and real problems and our unhappiness about how that's been handled.

Wales's loss of rights relating to EU environmental law, that old framework that allowed us to hold corporations and Governments to account for damaging the natural world, has been because of Brexit. Brexit has many casualties; we have lost so much. The same robustness that we had under that old framework has to be a bare minimum—it has to be replicated in Welsh law. I'm afraid that because of the inaction of the Welsh Government on this since the transition period, we are in a really damaging situation.

As has been rehearsed already, this is a devolved area. The Environment (Wales) Act 2016 and the well-being of future generations Act provide the legal framework for environmental protection. The measures that we have at the moment were meant as a stopgap. Concerns were raised even at the time about how the threshold for seriousness would be met in terms of what infringements should be escalated when they were reported. Concerns were raised again at the time about the non-statutory basis of the arrangements, and this was even the case before the role had been diluted. But we're in 2022 now; that stopgap arrangement is ongoing, and it's also been downgraded. The interim assessor can only oversee the functioning of environmental law, so they can see what the issues are, but they have very limited ability to do anything about it. Our committee—as has been said already—has considered many of these difficulties, and the fact that at the moment, there doesn't seem to be any end in sight to this interim period. I really would urge the Government to prioritise this area as much as possible, because of the uncertainty that it is creating.

Citizens at present don't have a clear or accessible way of holding Government or polluters to account. I take the point that the Government has said that judicial review mechanisms are an interim means of escalating infringements of environmental law, but judicial review is outside the means of most ordinary people, and it also goes against the principle, again, which is set out in EU law, that all citizens should have equal and available access to environmental justice. It's not clear how environmental protections can therefore be enforced. As Wales Environment Link have said, and I'm quoting their words, 

'It is clear that the interim arrangements do not constitute a route to environmental justice nor do they provide a substitute for the oversight and enforcement role required to replace that provided by EU institutions'.

That's the end of the quotation. It still remains unclear as to when legislation, when any permanent solution is going to be put forward. Dirprwy Lywydd, I think that what we're seeing as a result is an environmental injustice at a time when we are living through a nature emergency, a time that requires vigilance instead of complacency.

When the Minister responds to the debate, I'd be grateful to hear how much longer the Government anticipates that these interim arrangements will be required as well as when the Welsh Government will introduce legislation to provide more of a permanent solution. Again, obviously, I believe that the Minister wants to get this right, of course I believe that, but having this certainty, having this permanency wouldn't just be for the sake of assuaging people's concerns, it would be to correct that real environmental injustice that is happening in this really messy interim period. It would be useful to know whether the Government has conducted a risk assessment of the implications of Wales's lack of legally binding environmental governance arrangements. Has that happened, I wonder? And how many infringements of environmental law have been reported to the interim assessor since February 2021? Again, when the Minister responds, I'd be grateful to hear her thoughts on those points. But, again—

Thank you to the Chair, to all committee members and the interim assessor—I can't remember what the Welsh term for that is, I'm sorry.

I don't want to, and I won't, reiterate any of the points that my colleagues have already made, but it's important, at this stage, to thank the clerks, the Chair and the clerking team for assisting us in our work. I think there is an issue here beyond governance, and it's an issue of capacity. The report of the interim assessor highlights that demand on the service was greater than that which was anticipated. Of course, that's to be welcomed, because it does show that the Welsh public are engaged and concerned about the protection of our natural heritage and environment. And going forward, that is a good thing.

I remember when I was first elected to this Chamber, I was involved in the case of the Burry inlet that I know the Minister is familiar with, and where the European Court of Justice ultimately ruled that the UK breached laws over sewage and waste water. It was complicated, it was contested and it was a drawn-out affair, and it did, indeed, demonstrate the need for an independent body to rule on these matters.

What I ask is that, while the structure is being built, it might be worth considering beefing up the interim measures that the Welsh Government has currently in place. It wouldn't, of course, confer the legal powers that an environmental governance body must have, but it would ensure a stronger voice and a wider reach for their interim assessor's office to respond to the public concerns about how we protect our forests, waterways, hedgerows and anything else that needs protecting. So, I just ask, Minister, if you would consider those areas. Thank you.

The Llywydd took the Chair.

The Minister for Climate Change, Julie James.

Diolch, Llywydd. I too would like to begin by thanking the committee and Chair for their work and for the recent report on the interim environmental governance arrangements. I think the committee's report is well considered and balanced, and I'm very pleased to confirm that the Government accepts all of its recommendations.

I would also like to take this opportunity to express my gratitude to Dr Nerys Llewelyn Jones for the valuable work that she has done as the interim environmental protection assessor for Wales over the last 20 months. I am particularly pleased with how she has reached out to a broad range of stakeholders to facilitate important conversations about the functioning of environmental law in Wales. One of the most important aspects of the interim assessor role is being a champion of robust environmental protection measures—an element of her role where Dr Llewelyn Jones, I think everyone would agree, has absolutely excelled.

Over the past months, the interim assessor has hosted a number of stakeholder events aimed at gathering evidence on important environmental issues in Wales. These include hosting a panel discussion on the legal protection of hedgerows and a recent stakeholder round-table on the protected sites legislation in Wales. I very much look forward to seeing the recommendations resulting from these conversations, and just to confirm, Llyr, that we absolutely will be responding to them in the normal way.

So, in light of the important work that she has been undertaking, I am pleased to confirm that the Welsh Government will be extending Dr Llewelyn Jones's contract for a further year, and I'm particularly pleased that it is Dr Llewelyn Jones. We're not just extending the role, but we're extending her role in it, and I think that's a very important point to make. 

The committee's report made a number of recommendations to the Welsh Government, and there is indeed a lot of work to do to ensure that we deliver on them. In particular, we will be looking to undertake a review of the interim measures. The aims of the review will be to evaluate the effectiveness of the arrangements, to ascertain whether current levels of resourcing are sufficient and to inform the development of a permanent environmental governance body. We will bring forward the details of that review in due course. I'm sure that Llyr will invite me to a committee session to grill me on it, and I'm very happy to keep the Senedd informed by statement as well, Llywydd.

The Welsh Government does recognise the pressure that the interim assessor has faced since her appointment, due to the high demand for the service. We will need to consider very carefully whether the interim assessor has the resources needed to carry out the intended functions effectively, and what we will need to do to ensure that she does have those resources. In the meantime, the interim assessor's secretariat team has been working with her to identify the best way to do this, and this includes commissioning external support from academics and legal professionals for her reports. We hope this will result in fewer demands being made on the interim assessor's own time, allowing her to devote it to finalising her reports.

It is worth noting as well, as pretty much everyone who's contributed has done, that there were a high number of cases received last year and very much an unexpected spike during November and December. But, since then, demand for the service has actually gone back to where the predicted demand levels were, with only four submissions being received since 1 March 2022. We just need to ensure that the resources are tailored to be able to cope with spikes, but also not sitting around twiddling their thumbs if the level is back. So, there's a little bit of work to do there.

In the committee's report, there were a number of recommendations for the assessor, as Llyr and others have noted, and they were related to raising awareness of the service and transparency around her work. And, as stated in our response to the report, we are providing the interim assessor with the support that she requires to deliver on those recommendations. We're very keen for her to be able to do so. And that includes taking steps to ensure that the webpages are much more accessible and exploring how better use can be made of social media channels to publicise the work, both of which I'm sure the committee will be pleased about. I'm also aware that the interim assessor has been taking steps to publish quarterly updates on her webpages to highlight how her work is progressing. This is a really positive development, and I am glad to see the action being taken so quickly in response to the committee's recommendations.

But, of course, despite all of this, and as the Chair of the committee highlighted, that's looking at the work of the assessor; it's not looking at what the gap is. We absolutely do recognise that the arrangements don't fully fill the environmental governance gaps left by Brexit. So, we have committed to legislation to bring forward a permanent environmental governance body during this Senedd term. We have got a number of important pieces of legislation in the same space over the coming year aimed at creating a greener Wales. I'm sure that Members all remember that only yesterday, we passed a Bill to ban and restrict the sale of some of the most commonly littered single-use plastics in Wales. I was very delighted to be able to do that. Congratulations, everyone, for taking part in that. We have a clean air Bill, an agricultural Bill to reform the way our farming communities are supported in the future, and a Bill on coal tip safety forthcoming.

We are developing the work programme for delivering on our commitment to establish a permanent environmental governance body, taking into account the need to ensure that there are measures in place to mitigate the existing governance gaps. This is part of the co-operation agreement that we'll be taking forward with Siân Gwenllian, the designated Member. I will be writing to the committee with further details on this work plan in due course. In taking forward the work, we will be able to draw on the experience that the interim assessor has gained to date and learn from counterparts in the other nations of the United Kingdom for where they've got so far. And, as I have repeatedly said to Delyth—I'm sure that she can almost repeat it back to me herself—one of the big things that I want to be able to achieve from this is to set the biodiversity targets in the 30x30 process.

I'm about to go out to COP, despite sounding like this—I'm sure everybody else on the plane will be delighted to be sitting next to somebody who sounds like this—and I will be working really hard with the coalition of what are called sub-national Governments and regions across the world to make sure that we play our part in making sure that those targets are meaningful and will actually bring back the biodiversity on which we all absolutely rely. I really mean this. We want those targets to be vigorous and stretching. We want them to mean something. We want them to make sure that we do, actually, protect and reverse and halt the decline in biodiversity. I want this governance body to be part of ensuring that that happens. I'm sorry that there's a gap, and, obviously, we don't want to be last—

Will the Minister give way?

Sorry, go on, Huw.

I thank the Minister for giving way. Whilst we hate delay, one of the advantages is that we can look not only at Conference of the Parties 15 now, but also at what has happened elsewhere in the UK. Janet made the point that, yes, there are other governance structures that have been put in place in the UK, but they haven't been without criticism. So, if you can also give us the guarantee that you'll have a look at those, and when you come in front of the committee, we'll ask you questions about how you've learnt from them as well. 

Absolutely, Huw, I was coming on to say exactly that. We want those targets to be meaningful and stretching. We want them to be achievable, though. There's no point in having targets and everybody goes, 'Oh well, you'll never do that'. We need them to be realistic and achievable targets, where we can protect 30 per cent of our land, freshwater and seas by 2030. That's not very far away, so we need to get these targets right and we need to get them to be meaningful.

We have got positive collaborative working relationships already with the Office for Environmental Protection and Environmental Standards Scotland, as well as counterparts in the UK and Scottish Governments. We absolutely will be learning the lessons from what they have already done as we develop permanent environmental governance arrangements that reflect our policies and our legislative context here in Wales.

So, I will say this to all of the Members who've contributed to this and to the members of the committee: I am sorry to be last. I didn't want there to be a gap; would that we could prevent that from having happened. But, there are some merits in it as well. We will be able to set these targets, we will be able to ensure that they are meaningful, we will able to do the learning from what's happened elsewhere in the UK and we will get the interim assessor's seriously good input into how we construct this. I'm sure that the committee will help us construct the very best legislation that we can. I assure you that we will be bringing it forward; I am absolutely determined to do so. I just want to conclude by thanking the committee and Chair once again for their very valuable work and their continued positive engagement with this issue. Diolch.

The committee Chair to reply—Llyr Gruffydd.

Thank you very much, Llywydd, and thank you to everyone who's contributed to the debate. A particular thanks to the Minister for her positive response in responding to the debate, which was also reflected in the fact that the recommendations have been accepted in full, and we appreciate that. 

I'm going to say this in a positive way—please don't think I'm trying to make a broader point—but having a Brexiteer bemoan the loss of EU environmental governance and EU environmental protections should be seen as a positive thing, Minister, because we are where we are—you know, we're not revisiting that—but it shows that there's political unanimity behind you in moving on this. Maybe Government should have been awake to that earlier on and maybe had more confidence in moving sooner, because, of course, we've known for many, many years that this would need to be done. It isn't just now that we're coming to the conclusion that we need a permanent body; we've known for three, four or five years.

Yes, there have been circumstances that have militated against the actions that many of us—yourself included, I'm sure, Minister—would have liked to have seen, and I accept, a well, the point made about, 'Actually, let's make that work, then, in our favour; let's learn the lessons and use the opportunity to incorporate other things that, maybe, we would have been oblivious to at that point'. So, I appreciate that the question isn't whether the Government, or any of us, want to move on this, it's 'When are we going to do it?' When are we finally going to get going on this and get it over the line?

Would the Chair give way?

Yes, I will, of course.

I simply rise to join him in his acclamation of our committee colleague, Janet, because having that unanimity genuinely is a significant moment—it really is. If we're all agreed, across the Senedd Chamber, on the highest possible environmental governance and regulations to protect us, putting aside Brexit or whatever, my goodness, that's a good place to go forward behind the Minister. So, well done, Janet, as well as the Chair. 

Yes, there we are. Well done. And that'll be on the record forever. 

And you'll have to stick at it.

Yes. Thank you very much for that. [Laughter.] I think the point made by Huw, actually—interim, yes; invaluable, no. We do want to say a hearty 'thank you' to the interim assessor for the work that she is doing. It is very much appreciated.

It's an important point: we're not criticising the assessor here—to the contrary, in light of the capacity and the resources available to her, she is doing as much as we could expect and more, so we thank her for that.

But I just want to conclude by saying that of course we as a committee will continue to scrutinise and be dissatisfied until we see legislation coming forward, and, of course, as part of that process,we will play a full part in ensuring that what we have at the end of the process will be as robust and muscular and effective and efficient as it can possibly be.

I also want to echo my thanks to the assessor, but also to committee members for their work, to the stakeholders who contributed to the work, and also to our clerking team, who have been very supportive and a great support to us in undertaking this work. My thanks will be even greater to the Minister when we finally see legislation brought forward to this place. Thank you.

The proposal is to note the committee's report. Does any Member object? No. The motion is therefore agreed. 

Motion agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Before we move to the next two debates, I want to reiterate comments that I made last week and remind Members that, where opposition groups use the time allocated to them to table two motions for 30-minute debates, guidance states that contributions during the debate should be limited to three minutes. I know Members can become frustrated by that fact. I'm going to ask the Business Committee, therefore, to revisit speaking times relative to the length of a debate and whether the use of 30-minute debates provides the Senedd with sufficient time to consider what are often significant topics. [Members of the Senedd: 'Hear, hear.'] We'll review this as a Business Committee early in the new year, and I've noted all your cheers on that basis, and I'll remember that.

So, thank you, therefore.