The following amendment has been selected: amendment 1 in the name of Lesley Griffiths.

We'll move on now to item 9.

Item 9 is the debate on an independent review of children's social care, and I call on Gareth Davies to move the motion.

Motion NDM8160 Darren Millar

To propose that the Senedd:

1. Calls on the Welsh Government to establish an independent review of children’s social care in Wales.

Motion moved.

Diolch yn fawr iawn, Llywydd, and I move this motion today, tabled in the name of my colleague Darren Millar. I'd like to start my contribution today by putting again on the record my extended thoughts and condolences to Logan Mwangi's father Ben, his family, friends, school and social network in Bridgend. There's nothing we can say or do that can take away the pain and sadness they must be feeling at this difficult time and in the future, and nothing can deflect away from the pure evil and brutality of the disgusting individuals who carried out this sustained period of abuse to Logan, ending up in his murder. I'm pleased that the correct level of justice was applied to the three perpetrators and that they are serving at His Majesty's pleasure. 

The death of a child, especially in the circumstances of Logan Mwangi, is a tragedy that we must never forget. Equally, such a tragedy requires the efforts of the Welsh Government to ensure that it can never happen again. We owe it to Logan, his family and to every child in Wales to hold a nationwide review of children's social services in Wales and ensure that our children are not let down because they live in Wales.

Wales has the UK's highest rate of looked-after children, so it's imperative that this Government shows leadership. After months of the First Minister blocking a review, the Welsh Conservatives are once again calling for him to use the tools available to him to put children first in Wales. Reviews such as these do work, and help to ensure that never again means never again. They will not stop the tragic murder of children, unfortunately, but they do ensure that lessons are learned and preventative measures can be taken earlier on to safeguard children.

In England, the review into the murders of Arthur Labinjo-Hughes and Star Hobson prioritised what went wrong, why it happened, and what can be done to prevent a repeat of such events. Eight recommendations were put forward, so the UK Government has a clear guide on where to improve. In Scotland, periodic reviews by the Care Inspectorate have been the central guide for case reviews, and regularly provide recommendations to the Scottish Government. Equally, in February, Northern Ireland launched a review of children's social care services. So, why are Welsh children being left out when every other UK administration is taking responsibility? This is vital, because the death of Logan Mwangi proved that concerns about dangers of dependency on agency workers was putting children's safety at risk, and the command structure in the NHS that leaves junior staff unable to challenge senior colleagues, and that proves to be a threat.

If this review does not go ahead, the people of Wales will want to know why, once again, the Labour Government blocks scrutiny into their management of the NHS. Power over health should mean the Government takes responsibility, but, as we have seen recently, this is not the case, and this leads me to ask: is the Government worried about what the review will find? So, finally, I urge all Members of the Senedd to support our motion without amendment today. Thank you.  

I have selected the amendment to the motion, and I call on the Deputy Minister for Social Services to move formally that amendment. 

Amendment 1—Lesley Griffiths

Delete all and replace with:

To propose that the Senedd:

Supports the Welsh Government’s plans for the reform of children’s social care without the need for an independent review that would draw in valuable resources and be a distraction to the excellent work carried out by those providing services to vulnerable children, their parents and carers.

Amendment 1 moved.

Formally. 

Thank you. The amendment is moved. Heledd Fychan. 

Thank you, Llywydd, and thank you to the Conservatives for bringing this debate forward today. 

A key commitment within the programme for government is to explore radical reform of current services for looked-after children and care leavers. I believe it's absolutely essential that there is a review of children's social care in Wales, and I'm supporting this without agreeing to the amendment today. I think it is crucial. We've rehearsed the reasons why, tragically, as was highlighted by Gareth Davies, after reflecting on the content of the report and the tragic death of Logan Mwangi, but crucially, for us, this is not about party politics. It is about listening to those that have the experience of listening to social workers, that had in their manifesto for 2021 election that this was something that they believed needed to happen.

Also, I do not accept the point that any kind of review would delay changes coming into action. It is about looking at the system as a whole, and this is absolutely essential, because we know that the facts and figures do speak for themselves. And it was extremely concerning to hear the Children's Commissioner for Wales in her response saying we've seen these kinds of recommendations before. So, what reassurances are we able to give? We know that there's a huge strain on social services staff and all those agencies involved as well, and that things are only likely to worsen. We know how affected local authorities are already by austerity, and how they will be as a result of the cost-of-living crisis and the impact on local authority budgets. 

So, it is a serious situation, because, as is evident, it is children and young people at the end of the day that will suffer, and it is essential that we do everything within our power to ensure that those who need support are able to be supported, and that we don't have tragic headlines again, and are yet again here in the Senedd expressing our concern and support for recommendations. Reviews are positive, in my view. They are not things to be feared, and it is crucial that we actually do take the opportunity to learn lessons as a whole. As I said, we are working together to look at areas of reform, but a review will give us that consistency in terms of that overall picture. 

The First Minister, Mark Drakeford, has identified reducing care rates in Wales as a priority of the Welsh Government, and rightly so. We know that the outcomes for children and young people in care is a particular concern, and the fact that the rate of children looked after in Wales is now higher than at any time since the 1980s is something that should be hugely concerning. Therefore, we believe in Plaid Cymru that an independent review into children's social care will provide us the opportunity to fill the gaps in children's social care currently, gaps that we know exist and will only worsen if Welsh Government do not act promptly. We need to lay the foundation to ensure every child is safe from harm, and, to do this, child protection must be made a priority, and we also support the National Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Children Wales's calls in this area, and thank again the Conservatives for tabling this motion. 

I'd like to thank my colleague Gareth Davies for bringing forward this hugely important, timely debate. As an MS whose region covers the Bridgend county borough, these discussions are doubly important to my constituents, constituents who are deeply troubled by the events leading up to and surrounding the tragic murder of Logan Mwangi. Gareth has already outlined the terrible timeline of Logan's death. However, it is important to note that the failings of Bridgend social services predated this case. Long before Logan's murder, there were concerns about children's services in Bridgend County Borough Council. In 2017, a Western Mail investigation uncovered a shocking number of children missing from care. Bridgend social services did not know where these vulnerable children were. The department recorded 385 missing incidents, relating to 60 individual children. But, worst of all, they said their data only covered the period since July 2015, as the authority did not begin capturing information on missing children in a consistent way until then. It is little wonder that, in the years that followed, Care Inspectorate Wales have issued a number of critical reports into Bridgend social services. At various times, CIW have found that workforce pressures have led to episodes of children going missing and children at risk of exploitation in the Bridgend area; that a lack of appropriate action had been taken in a timely way to mitigate risk to children; that the inspectorate could not be confident that children on the child protection register, or in the care system, were visited by social workers frequently enough.

I want to make it clear that I am not criticising the front-line workforce; they're doing an incredible job under extreme pressure. But they're being let down by the leadership at all levels from within the department, the council and the Welsh Government—a failure of leadership that left children's services understaffed and overstretched—[Interruption.] Sorry. Yes.

My apologies. I hadn't intended to speak in this debate, but I've read the report in great detail, and there are definitely criticisms of Bridgend social services. There's also observation, from the care inspectorate, that measures have been taken already to respond to those. What there is also criticism of is many other agencies, including the inability of nursing staff in Cwm Taf Morgannwg University Health Board to challenge authority above that. I listened to the previous debate on this as well, and found that was not being raised, so can we comprehensively look at the contributory factors? Because I think Ben Mwangi, in Logan's memory, deserves the whole picture of this, not just focusing on one stakeholder within this. Criticism as there was, there was a wide range of failures.

Thank you very much. Thanks.

—the tragic result of which allowed a young boy to be murdered by the very people supposed to look after and nurture him. The Deputy Minister has said that lessons will be learned from this tragedy, but I'm not convinced that they will, or that the same thing is not going to happen in other local authorities in my region or across Wales. The only way we can truly learn from this tragedy and ensure nothing like it ever happens again is to hold a root-and-branch inquiry into social services. Only then can people in Bridgend and across this nation be confident that children's social care is fit for purpose. Thank you very much.

Many of you know that I've worked in child protection for around 25 years, and I did work during the COVID period. And I would like to be clear that, in terms of my reading of the report on Logan Mwangi, I cannot see any reason that the COVID restrictions at the time would not have had—in terms of potentially saving his life. I think it's really important I put that on record, because it is easy to hold that responsible. But, in my experience, it was far, far more than the COVID period.

I do welcome and thank the Conservatives for this debate, and I know that we have the same views across three political parties here in the Siambr. I do also welcome the Minister's commitment to childcare and child protection, and that there have been many innovations from the Welsh Government. But this is about getting the basics right, and the basics for me are making sure that our children across Wales have the best chance to be safe and protected. I want to make it clear: we can never, ever eliminate children being hurt or dying, sadly, but we can make them safer, and that's what this review is calling for. There is a real, clear issue here in terms of language. For me, it's not an investigation; it's a review. It's a review where we can learn, where we can understand the issues. 

Let me tell you, I've been involved in these over the time I've been a social worker, a service manager and a senior leader in child protection. Nobody likes them. Nobody wants them. But we do them because we think it's best for our children, and we do them in order to learn. They can be very positive. As you've heard, they can be opportunities for us to share good practice, and, for the children of Wales, surely that's what we want.

As Senedd Members in this Siambr, I'll tell you, I have no idea how our children's services across Wales are performing in child protection. I'll give you some concrete examples. Care Inspectorate Wales, who are responsible for inspecting services, recent reports from Wrexham and Denbighshire, actually, are very, very hard to interpret how they're performing in child protection. But if you look at Ofsted in England, the latest one from Kent says straight away how they are performing in child protection. Now, I think we should have that here as members of our communities, but also as Senedd Members. We should know how our children are being protected across Wales.

My final point is that this is a proposal for a review. This is about listening to people, listening to those working at the front line across all of the services. I do take Huw Irranca-Davies's point there: it is about working and listening to all of those professionals, because there were issues in Logan's situation. My question to you, Deputy Minister, is: if now isn't the time for a national review, following the really tragic death of Logan Mwangi, with growing numbers of children in care, with the care system at breaking point, huge vacancies in parts of our country, when is the time? Thank you. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

The Deputy Minister for Social Services. Julie Morgan.

Diolch. I'll start by thanking the Welsh Conservatives for bringing forward this motion today, and also by thanking the Members for their contributions to the debate. I mean, this is such an important topic, and I know this is something where the concern is shared across the whole of the Chamber.

Welsh Ministers are committed to protecting and supporting the health and well-being of all children and young people in Wales, and the murder of Logan has quite rightly prompted discussion and focus on child protection in Wales. That's why I delivered an oral statement in Plenary last week, following the publication of the child practice review, arising from what is a very shocking event.

As part of my oral statement, I reiterated that I was convinced that now is not the time for an independent review of children's services in Wales, and I do remain of this view. And whilst Members have continued to call for a review, the argument to conduct such a review has simply not been made, in the Government's view. I know that Members have referred to the fact that other parts of the UK have done so, but I think there's no reason for us to do it just because other parts of the UK have had reviews. Services and structures in England and Scotland are different—

Will you take an intervention?

—and the need for a review elsewhere doesn't amount to the case for a review here.

Just on that one, Minister, you say, 'Why should we do it because everybody else is doing it?', well, that's the reason we should be doing it, in fact, because if Scotland, England and Northern Ireland are conducting their own, they obviously see the need and the value of actually having those reviews in order to see which local authorities are actually going wrong. And, across Wales, we could actually have the chance to see the 22 local authorities across Wales and see where the pitfalls would be and make sure nobody slips through the net again. So, can you see the value in that, Minister?

I mean, we're obviously looking very closely at the reviews, and we've looked at the review carried out by Josh MacAlister in England, and many of the conclusions that he comes to are things that we are already doing here. So, we're certainly looking at what other reviews are doing, and that's causing part of our thinking. But, just to reiterate, our approach in Wales is rights based, unlike elsewhere in the UK, from the appointment of the Children's Commissioner for Wales, first established under the Care Standards Act 2000, to the Rights of Children and Young Persons (Wales) Measure 2011, which sets out our commitment in Wales to children's rights and the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child, and more recently to the Children (Abolition of Defence of Reasonable Punishment) (Wales) Act 2020 and the removal of the defence of reasonable punishment. Wales has taken a distinctive, progressive and highly successful approach to promoting the welfare and well-being of our children and young people.

Similarly, the Social Services and Well-being (Wales) Act 2014 provides us with mechanisms to support safeguarding arrangements that are not replicated elsewhere. For example, the Act established the national independent safeguarding board, which is now in its second term. The legislation enabled the creation of the whole-Wales safeguarding procedures, implemented in 2019. So, our approach has been strategic for a number of years, and, of course, we have kept our services under constant review. And we do have the evidence to take us forward. As I said last week, I gave you all examples of all the reports and things that we have done to look into this type of situation.

Will the Minister take an intervention?

Yes, certainly.

Sorry. Thank you so much. Is it not the case though that there has not been a review in Wales of child protection services? I do hear there have been reviews of looked-after children and of care-experienced children, but what we're talking about here is a review of child protection services. So, can you tell me when there was a review of child protection services—maybe I've missed it—because I think that's so important? Thank you. Diolch.

I think I did respond to you when you raised a similar question in the oral statement last week, that we have already agreed that there will four joint reviews between the different inspection bodies of child protection procedures over the next two years. So, I think I did tell you that when I responded before.

But we have done a lot of reviews, and I will repeat them: the thematic reports of the Wales Centre for Public Policy concerning looked-after children; the work during the last Senedd term of the improving outcomes for children ministerial advisory group; the Public Law Working Group's report and recommendations to safely divert children away from becoming subjects of public law proceedings; the 'Care Crisis Review'; and the Nuffield Foundation's 'Born into Care'. And this research, in addition to the findings of reviews carried out elsewhere—the ones that Gareth Davies referred to—have informed our priorities, and we already have a clear plan for radical reform of children's services in Wales that builds on almost 25 years of experience since devolution, and we do know that the challenges must be addressed.

This is what we're already doing: preventive interventions for families with children on the edge of care, including parental advocacy services; family group conferencing; family justice reform; and a national practice framework. The establishment of a national care framework for social care and a national office provides the vehicle for transformation with nationally commissioned services, and the development of a single, unified, safeguarding review will be a means to conduct one single review following serious incidents, enabling reviews to be conducted more quickly, avoiding duplication of multiple reviews, and enabling the identification and implementation of learning on a pan-Wales basis.

Also, I did say in my oral statement last week that the additional actions are being taken forward. CIW have agreed to undertake a rapid review of structures and processes in place to inform decisions about how a child is added to or removed from a child protection register. It's been agreed that a task and finish group will be established under the Wales safeguarding procedures project board to consider the existing legislation, guidance and procedures to ensure that these provide the right information required to fulfil their duties.

We're certainly not uninformed, and we are not complacent, and we will always be responsive to new evidence. So, all those things are going on, and we have accepted the five national recommendations, which will include considerable input from the Welsh Government in taking forward those five national recommendations, and the health board has already set about commissioning an independent review of the way that they conduct safeguarding procedures. But we know that this a very, very important issue, and that's why I've made it clear that I expect action to be taken quickly by all relevant agencies to address the learning themes and recommendations identified from the child practice review arising from Logan's death.

I am under no illusion regarding the challenges we are facing in ensuring that these priorities identified to improve our children's services are taken forward, but I haven't yet heard anything to persuade me that a national wide-ranging review would surface anything substantive or substantial of which we are unaware. If I thought there would be a benefit in having one of these reviews, of course I would want to do it. The interests of the children in Wales are at the absolute top of my agenda and the Government's agenda. But to conduct a review of this nature would draw in the time and resources of the very people who are needed right now to do the job in hand.

I am sure Members are aware of the extensive efforts that have to be put into a review in order for it to be carried out properly, and those are the people from our services who have to deliver the services, who have to improve things for children in Wales, and that is my real concern. When there is nothing very substantive that you can see by having a review, I cannot see it being justified by diverting people from the work that they're already doing.

Now is the time to support our front-line staff, rather than create more uncertainty for them, and now is the time to get behind the reforms. It's for this reason that I've requested that a summit for practitioners is arranged. We want to talk to and hear directly from the front line, to shape and improve how we transform children's services, while recognising the great work they do, but to share existing good practice.

This follows the first ever summit for care-experienced children and young people, which we held last Saturday in the museum in Cardiff, which was a very successful event. We had 40 care-experienced young people from over Wales. We had five Ministers who came, and we sat there all day and we listened to what those care-experienced young people said. And we've got a list as long as anything that we've got to go about, and we've got to do, and we are committed to the children in Wales to make those things happen.

But we can't do that if we've got to divert to a review on children's services in Wales. The point was made very forcibly by Huw in his contribution that this isn't just children's services. We've had some confusion in the debate about asking for a child protection review, about children's services, but it's a wide-ranging review that we'd have to have—[Interruption.] I don't—. I think—

I don't think you have time. I've been very generous with your time, Minister, and I'll equally be generous to the closer of the debate.

Yes, I know. I'll be very quick. I'll finish now.

I know that there are enormous challenges here in Wales, but we know what they are and we are acting on them. A review now would delay us in taking forward our plans, would divert resources, and I think would be of dubious practical value. As I said before, if I thought we would gain something, we would do it. So, it would be helpful to me, to the children of Wales, if all of us in the Chamber got behind our reforms, and got behind our front-line staff and our plans to transform children's services in Wales. Now is the time to act, not further reflect.

Mark Isherwood to respond to the debate.

Diolch, Llywydd. Well, Gareth Davies, our colleague, obviously, opened this debate by extending his thoughts and condolences—and I know every Member here shares this—to Logan Mwangi's family and friends and community. Such a tragedy, he said, highlights the need for the Welsh Government to ensure this never happens again, with an independent review to ensure that 'never again means never again.' He said that whereas reviews in England prioritise what went wrong, with clear recommendations to the UK Government to go forward, and there are current reviews in Scotland and Northern Ireland, why is only Wales being left out when children's safety is being put at risk? If reviews don't go ahead, he said, the people of Wales will want to know why the Welsh Government appears to be avoiding accountability once again.

Heledd Fychan quite rightly said it's absolutely essential that we have an independent review of children's social care in Wales, because it's not a party political matter. It's about looking at the system as a whole, where facts and figures speak for themselves. As she said,

'Reviews are positive...not things to be feared...to learn lessons as a whole.'

Altaf Hussain pointed out that the failings with Bridgend social services long predated this individual case, with a number of critical reports showing children going missing or being put at risk of exploitation. 

Jane Dodds, speaking with a career in child protection, said she can't see any reason why COVID prevented interventions to save Logan's life. She referred to Care Inspectorate Wales reports—I think she said in Wrexham and Denbighshire—being very hard to interpret, in contrast to equivalent reports from the sister body across the border in England. 

The Minister, our Deputy Minister for Social Services, Julie Morgan, despite all of that said that she remains of the view that now is not the time for an independent review, regardless of the overwhelming weight of evidence in support of an independent review. Her statement that you shouldn't just do something because other parts of the UK have had reviews, to which Gareth responded, despite all other Governments across the UK recognising the need for these reviews, often recurrently, perhaps exposes an underlying mindset that is creating barriers to delivery within the Welsh Government on points that should have nothing to do with party politics. 

The pandemic has only exacerbated an existing situation, and the safeguarding review into Logan Mwangi's case outlined a number of recommendations aimed at Welsh Government, including that they consider commissioning a pan-Wales review of approaches to undertaking child protection conferences to identify—. They made a series of recommendations I haven't got time to read out. However, the Deputy Minister for social care, Julie Morgan, refused in 2019 to commission a review on the rise in looked-after children in Wales, and her mission to reduce high numbers through setting local authority targets without sound measures underpinning these targets has sadly come to fruition, because we haven't had an independent review to establish the root causes. 

Of course, this isn't just about Bridgend or about a local authority failing to intervene. For example, I have casework involving neurodiverse parents in Flintshire, who wrote to every county councillor with evidence that wasn't included in the documents presented to a judge in family proceedings regarding their children by the council, in consequence of which their children were taken into care and remain undiagnosed, untreated and unsupported for apparent autism, pathalogical demand avoidance and HDE. And none of the councillors responded because they were told not to or asked not to by the council's legal team, despite the vital role they're supposed to play in challenging council officers and holding them to account when presented with such evidence. 

The tragic case of Logan Mwangi, who was let down by so many agencies in Bridgend, should be a tipping point for children's services in Wales. One legacy of this bright, bubbly boy must be that his horrendous murder should never be repeated. Although the Deputy Minister has pledged to accept the findings of the review into Logan's death, this won't sufficiently investigate recurring failures and provide clear solutions to support Welsh children in the future. An independent review of children's social care will achieve this, and the children of Wales deserve our collective support. So, let us vote in favour of a full and frank independent review into children's care and social care in Wales. Diolch yn fawr. 

The proposal is to agree the motion without amendment. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Yes, there is objection. Therefore, I will defer voting under this item until voting time. 

Voting deferred until voting time.

The next item—[Interruption.]

I almost want to make a point of order to Alun Davies. I think the Member may want to reflect on something I said prior to the debate. I think I noticed you walking in after I'd said it, and it was a reflection on some of the points that had been raised last week during Plenary. I think one of them may well have been a point of order by you at that time. It's remarkable, sometimes, the influence you can have on the Llywydd.

Okay, we'll move on to the next debate.