[R] signifies the Member has declared an interest. [W] signifies that the question was tabled in Welsh.

I have accepted an urgent question under Standing Order 12.66, and I call on David Rees to ask the urgent question.

What discussions has the Cabinet Secretary held with the UK Government regarding the decision to build a prison in Port Talbot? EAQ(5)0124(CC)

I thank the Member for his question. I have had direct discussions with the UK prisons Minister regarding the proposed site for the development of the new prison at Port Talbot. This proposal has the potential to offer south Wales a modern, fit-for-purpose facility that concentrates on rehabilitation, making our communities safer.

I thank the Cabinet Secretary for that answer. This decision was taken by the Westminster Government before any public consultation had taken place and I deeply regret that they have not taken the opportunities available to them, although I do recognise that the planning process will allow opportunities, perhaps, for that wider public consultation.

They don’t seem to be identifying specific sites, although it has come to my attention that perhaps it’s on Welsh Government land, on Baglan industrial estate, off Moor Road. Can you confirm that? Can you also identify what impact assessments have been undertaken of local services—health, whether physical or mental health, education, particularly for the inmates who will be going to the prison, and perhaps on transport issues, because, clearly, who will be paying those costs as well? What support services are being identified for those inmates who will be released from prison and where will they be located?

We can use HMP Berwyn as an example, perhaps, as an assessment to be made of the local benefits, but have you been given any indication as to how many jobs are being created as a consequence of this decision, particularly in light of the Cardiff University data that have been released today, identifying the fact that, if Port Talbot is an additional prison, then there’s going to be an overcapacity for the number of Welsh prisoners who will need to be housed. Does that imply that Cardiff and Swansea are under review and possibly fit for closure, which means that jobs will not be created, but be transferred instead, which, therefore, has a different impact upon the site? I recognise that some of those aspects may be for the Ministry of Justice to answer, but have you asked those questions and have you had answers to those questions?

I thank the Member for his question and his interest on that, representing his constituents. Of course, many of the questions he has rightly raised require Ministry of Justice responses, but they are at very early stages. The statement that was issued by the Ministry of Justice was about the indication to consider building a prison in Neath Port Talbot, and those fundamental questions about the indirect consequences that the Member raises are things that will happen through both consultation and also the proper planning processes by the Ministry of Justice.

My team will be engaging with the Ministry of Justice around these issues and, of course, I did visit HMP Berwyn in Wrexham. I think the nervousness of new institutions like this is one that galvanises communities, but I can assure the Member and I would urge him to go and have a look at HMP Berwyn to allay some of his fears. But some of the questions he raises with me today are right and proper, and he does deserve answers to them.

My first reaction is to say that we do not wish to turn Wales into a vast prison. In principle, we do not support superjail expansion. We are not the USA. Do you not agree with me that we need facilities that suit the needs of Welsh prisoners and that we need to devolve justice to Wales and ensure that we do not fall into the trap of building new prisons without discussing prison reform and ways of stopping people offending in the first instance? Do you agree with me that it is unwise to welcome jobs for the sake of welcoming jobs, without seeing all of the detail? So far, we don’t know what this means for the construction sector itself, and we don’t know whether these will be long-term jobs in the public or the private sector. For example, are these going to be zero-hours contracts, short-term contracts, or are they going to be long-term jobs for the community?

The Deputy Presiding Officer (Ann Jones) took the Chair.

We don’t know much of the detail as yet. I’ve been in contact with councillors from my party in Rhondda Cynon Taf County Borough Council, and they’ve told me that it was up to councils and/or the Welsh Government to put forward criteria to call on the Ministry of Justice to apply for those positions. So, I want to understand whether Neath Port Talbot council or you as Welsh Government have actually given them criteria to say that the land in Baglan is okay for them to use, and that you’ve given them that level of permission, so to speak, so that you have indicated that there is a way forward for Neath Port Talbot. I’ve been told that it was a voluntary process and that there was no need for either the council or Welsh Government to put forward an application in that regard.

Is this prison going to facilitate the closure of Swansea and Cardiff prisons? Even if this is the case, why a superprison? Figures from the Wales Governance Centre, as we’ve heard, show that if this prison is built, it would leave Wales with 2,400 surplus places and 600 if Cardiff were to close. Is the UK Government turning Wales into a penal colony while they ship our own prisoners, including women, elsewhere? What are you doing in discussions with the UK Government to repatriate the over 50 per cent of the male population of Welsh prisoners who are not currently situated here in Wales to bring them back, so that their families can support them here in this country?

My final point is that I think the community, so far, has been disrespected by the UK Government. We’ve got a new superschool in Baglan, a new Welsh language school set to be built there, traffic problems are in abundance in that area, and local people need to be part of this conversation, and not be told what is coming to their community by the UK Government.

I thank the Member for her observations. There are many issues. She raises again, as the local Member Dai Rees raised, the issue with regard to Ministry of Justice responses. Can I just say from my experience of HMP Berwyn that around 60 per cent of the employment in the development and construction was of local area personnel, so it was a big industrial boost for that particular area?

In terms of prison reform, there is a Bill going through the Houses of Parliament. It’s not for me to defend the UK administration, but I can say that modern prisons, where they are required under the reform agenda, are much better than our old antiquated prisons that we have scattered around the country. This is a much better way of minimising risk to our communities, also developing family liaison support for Welsh prisoners too, and making sure that we don’t reoffend and end back up with the incarcerating element.

On the issue around women’s prisons, I absolutely agree that we should have a women’s secure unit here for women in Wales. If that is the last point, of course, for incarceration, then I believe it is right and proper that we have facilities in Wales to deliver that.

As both Members have alluded to, there are many questions that remain unanswered by the MOJ. It’s very early stages. I would expect the MOJ, the local authority and the involvement of the Welsh Government to have a full engagement programme with the community. It is only right and proper that that happens.

On your final point on land and land development, the land proposed is currently owned by Welsh Government, but that is not unique to any developer, in terms of private or public sector, where there is a look at the land base across Wales to see where developments may take place. This just happens to be a prison and it happens to be Welsh Government land. While this is a statement being made by the MOJ, it will have to go through the full planning process in order to gain momentum, if momentum at all.

I share some of the concerns of Bethan Jenkins that we might be moving towards a US situation where they actually spend more money on incarcerating people than they do on their education system, and what an indictment that is of the society. But I understand completely what the Cabinet Secretary was saying about the need to house people in conditions that support their rehabilitation, rather than in Victorian conditions that do not do that. But, as part of this announcement yesterday, it was revealed that the UK Government is reviewing certain prisons with a view, I think, to selling them off, and that includes Cardiff prison.

Now, my concerns are twofold. One is that it is very important that, as part of their rehabilitation, people are able to maintain contact with their families. It’s well proven that that is the case. The other is the efficiency of the prison service. It needs to include the proximity of the prisons to the court service, which, obviously, is what is provided at Cardiff at the moment. So, I hope that that will be taken into consideration in the discussions that you’ll be having with the UK Government on how we approach prisons overall. Personally, I absolutely do not support the institution of a women’s prison in Wales, because that is completely contrary to the recommendations of the 2007 report on the way in which we deal with women offenders, because the effects on their families are absolutely devastating. There are very exceptional cases of women who need to be in prison, but they are absolutely exceptions.

The Member raises some very important issues, but can I say that these are very modern facilities? The issue of education and rehabilitation is an important one. Wrexham prison and Bridgend, actually, have got some very good processes where reintegration into the community is an important one. If you lock people up and treat them like wild animals in cages, they will come back out as wild animals out of cages. That’s why we’ve got to have a different offer, and the old facilities that we have lend themselves quite nicely to that scenario. We have to have a new, modern approach to incarceration if that’s the last port of call.

I accept the Member’s point on women’s prisons. It troubles me dearly the fact that we’ve got anybody incarcerated—young people, men or women. But there are some times when this has to happen, and I think if it does have to happen, then it has to happen close to home, where we can still have integration with family connections that lead to better outcomes for people. So, I accept the Member’s very valid point about women’s prisons in general, but where we do need them, we have to make sure that we manage them properly.

These types of facilities—cutting edge in prison terms—are a whole new ball game. The one in Wrexham, a brand new facility, has the Coleg Cambria institution on there, helping people to learn new skills and training, an apprentice process for young people to go through as well, and a healthcare facility that is not only used for inmates, but for the public as well. So, the facilities they have there are in addition to the national health service. There are obviously concerns about the placement of this prison and what it looks like for the future, but let’s not jump to conclusions about what it may look like, because actually it might provide better outcomes for the people of all our communities that we all represent.

Cabinet Secretary, I welcome the news that south Wales is possibly to get a new prison. As someone who has worked in the prison service for many years, I know only too well the problems with overcrowding, which make for an unsafe environment for both prisoners and staff. Having additional prisons in south Wales will allow more prisoners to be housed closer to their homes. This is a massive benefit to rehabilitation efforts. As it stands, a prisoner is housed wherever there is a free space, whether that’s in a Welsh prison, in an English prison or vice versa.

Aside from the obvious benefits to the prison population and prison staff, the construction and operation of the prison itself will deliver huge benefits to my region. Housing 1,600 prisoners will bring much needed jobs to the local economy. It’s not just prison officers who work in a prison; they employ health workers, social workers, education staff, maintenance staff, and a whole host of auxiliary staff. May I say, having worked in a prison, the prisoners were not locked up for 23 hours a day where I worked? They were out for 10 to 14 hours in order to rehabilitate. Okay?

We also play host to thousands of visitors each year who will spend their money in the local economy. However, we have to also have the support of our community. Cabinet Secretary, what role will the Welsh Government play in addressing the concerns of local residents and promoting the benefits also of a new prison, with the emphasis being on rehabilitation?

I think there are important points raised by all Members today. The issue of the application is one for the Ministry of Justice, and they will take that forward. We do have a role in terms of the indirect consequences of building such an institution in Wales, in terms of educational pressures and other local pressures, but it does provide opportunities as well for employment and the procurement of support for the prison site.

Prisons should be the last port of call for any country. The fact that we are incarcerating people is an indictment of those individuals, but also of communities as well, and we have to get upstream of this. Actually, the last place I want to put somebody is in a prison, and that’s why our programme here is tackling issues well upstream of that, working with David Melding around looked-after children and looking after the educational issues around adverse childhood experiences. Because many of the people who are incarcerated, if you look at the profile of them, have experienced childhood experiences that none of us would have wanted to have stacked up in the past. We’ve got to change that. That’s why this is the end bit. Let’s hope that we can have a prison that’s only half full, because I’m okay with that. The fact of the matter is that we do need modern-day facilities with rehabilitation centres that can deliver a better outcome for people. I think we have to give confidence to communities such as the ones Members have raised in the Chamber today that what is potentially being built by the MOJ is a fit-and-proper building for their community.

Can I thank the Cabinet Secretary for his answers so far? I’m still a bit unclear on a couple of points. The first fundamental issue is: how did we get here? I wake up this morning to breakfast television news: ‘Prison in Baglan’. Okay, as a lowly Member of the opposition, I wouldn’t expect to be involved in any consultation with UK Government, but I expect somebody to have been involved with consultation with the UK Government, so can you exactly delineate what consultations have been happening over the last few days, weeks, months, also involving the local authority, so that we can have a clear idea of how we got to where we are today? That’s my first issue.

In terms of the second issue, obviously it’s about my worry about reoffending rates, and the revolving doors of people always going into prison, out of prison, and back into prison. One of the fundamentals of stopping that reoffending issue is actually the back-up locally of the health service, social care, housing provision, education, substance misuse, drug and alcohol services—all of those are devolved to Wales, devolved to this National Assembly for Wales. Remarkably, still, policing and criminal justice are not. That’s one of the issues, presumably, whereby we wake up this morning to find a superprison foisted upon us, because it is not devolved to Wales, as opposed to being the result of delicate discussions going on for several months.

But, there’s a fundamental disconnect. If we’re going to have hundreds of prisoners—1,600 of them—in Port Talbot, and we expect them to be rehabilitated in the community, in a community under strain, where the health service is under strain—I won’t go after it, but we know they’re under strain: education services, social care, housing, substance misuse. All of these devolved services are under strain, and now we’re having hundreds of people in, in addition, trying to engage with those services to stop them reoffending.

Can I ask what analysis has been undertaken to try and encompass what effect this new load of human beings in Port Talbot will have on our local, devolved services? Because I’ve got to say, Cabinet Secretary, I haven’t detected a clamour locally to have a prison by means of job creation, which seems to be one of the arguments. I’ve detected a clamour for a tidal lagoon by means of job creation. I’ve detected a clamour to make sure we still have a steelworks, to make sure we still have jobs, and I’ve detected a clamour to electrify our railways. Singularly, uniquely, I have failed to detect a clamour to have a new prison.

So, I’m wondering how we can resolve these sorts of issues, because we are talking, as has been outlined by Bethan Jenkins, 2,400 surplus places. We’ve got a superprison in Wrexham, a superprison in Port Talbot. Labour in Westminster opposes superprisons, presumably, in England—in favour of superprisons, plainly, in Wales. Two thousand four hundred surplus places with these, down to 1,600 if you close Cardiff, but that’s still 1,600 surplus places that our services in health, education, housing, under tremendous strain already—. Tell me: how are we going to cope?

Well, I thank Dr Lloyd for his questions—very animated he was too. I think—a couple of points, if we break them down. He starts to present the argument of being opposed to this on a constitutional issue. I think that’s unfortunate, because, actually, this is about making sure that our prisoners, our Welsh people who live in Wales, have a facility that can help them with the issue of—[Interruption.] If the Member wants a question, that’s a matter for the Presiding Officer. But the issue, if I may, stems from the—. The argument he presents is that this is something new. The issue around health and social care and other elements that we deliver in our services to prevent reoffending isn’t new to Wales. We deliver that in Cardiff, we deliver that in Bridgend, we deliver that in Swansea already. So, this is not a new anathema; this is about something that we are experienced about and the MOJ pay for those processes, too. But it is something that we have to make sure that we are fully appraised of, and have the funding that follows those procedures alongside.

I also accept that the Member is concerned, on a political basis, about having a prison in any particular area. They, generally, when you apply for a prison in whatever area, aren’t popular, but the Member wishes or seeks to exploit that on a political basis—I think it’s quite unfortunate. Let me tell the Member about the process he started with, about how did this all start—[Interruption.] Llywydd, I’m more than happy to have further questions, but—

No, there’s one more person to ask a question.

The issue here, Llywydd, is my team—it’s not unusual to engage with any prospective developer on an area that is owned by Welsh Government, with the private or public sector, which I said to Bethan Jenkins before. My team have been engaged with the MOJ on the basis of this facility potentially coming forward. Today’s announcement was about that potential coming to light. Now, it doesn’t mean that it’s going to go ahead; there will be a full consultation process, run by the MOJ, not Welsh Government. The only stake we have in this is that happens to be our land, not our project. But the issues that Members raise here today are important ones to make sure, if a facility does come to Wales, it’s the right facility, in the right place, with the right actions to prevent more reoffending in our communities.

Thank you. Finally, Mark Isherwood.

Diolch, Lywydd. As somebody who, like me, has visited prisons over the years, will you confirm that although we all seek that Welsh prisoners should be located as close to home as possible, the categorisation of prisoners sometimes makes that impossible? Secondly, as with HMP Berwyn, can you confirm whether the new proposed prison in Port Talbot will be made up of separate smaller units so that people in the community aren’t living in a superprison environment, but in a smaller, more house or large college environment? In terms of rehabilitation, will you confirm that you’ve sought or have obtained assurances that the rehabilitation programmes guiding HMP Berwyn will be developed in Port Talbot and how your experience of developing devolved, alongside non-devolved, services, in Berwyn will advise your way forward here? Will you confirm that, actually, there will be local jobs? I know, recently, I met the husband of one of my daughter’s friends who has just completed his training to work in at HMP Berwyn, who lives in the Wrexham area. And, finally, how will you build the Prison Advice and Care Trust and Sova’s Visiting Mum project for mothers in prison into Families First programmes in Wales?

Really good questions by the Member, but I hope that his visits to the prison were the same as mine, through the visitors’ entrance, so he could exit. But an important process. I haven’t got that detail, and I had a conversation with Sam Gyimah MP yesterday that was light on detail, because these things still have to be worked out, but what I would suggest is that the model, while controversial at first in the Wrexham area for HMP Berwyn, has proved to be a very positive one in terms of the interaction with communities. There’s lots of volunteer work going on there, education facilities, rehabilitation with third sector organisations. I would suggest that model is well-developed. It will be a sort of learning opportunity as well. But, also, the point of a superprison—Berwyn is the largest prison in the UK, but it is made up of several houses, which are, in effect, smaller prisons in an area, and I know the Member will have visited also. So, the questions the Member asked, and many Members have asked today, are matters for the MOJ in their application to the local authority, as and when that comes forward, but, without doubt, they are serious considerations that must be for the beneficial opportunities, for making sure that we can get rehabilitation with ex-offenders and offenders as we move forward.

Thank you very much, Cabinet Secretary.