We now move on to item 9 on our agenda, which is a debate on Stage 4 of the Land Transaction Tax and Anti-avoidance of Devolved Taxes (Wales) Bill. I call on the Cabinet Secretary for Finance and Local Government to move the motion. Mark Drakeford.

Motion NDM6291 Mark Drakeford

To propose that the National Assembly for Wales in accordance with Standing Order 26.47:

Approves the Land Transaction Tax and Anti-avoidance of Devolved Taxes (Wales) Bill.

Motion moved.

Thank you very much, Deputy Presiding Officer. It’s my pleasure today to introduce the Land Transaction Tax and Anti-avoidance of Devolved Taxes (Wales) Bill, to present it before the National Assembly for Wales to be approved. Some of the Members who are here today were also present to approve the first piece of devolved tax legislation in 2016, which was the Tax Collection and Management (Wales) Act, which established the Welsh Revenue Authority. This Bill does move us forward to the next stage in terms of tax devolution. It establishes a new tax on land transactions in Wales, instead of stamp duty land tax from April 2018 onwards. I want to thank again Members across the Chamber for their scrutiny work on the Bill and my officials and Commission staff for their support in this process.

Dirprwy Lywydd, mae sefydlu’r dreth trafodiadau tir i Gymru wedi bod yn fenter hynod dechnegol a hynod fanwl. Rwy'n ddyledus iawn i grŵp o swyddogion polisi a chyfraith gwirioneddol hyddysg sydd wedi ffurfio tîm prosiect penodedig. Mae eu gwaith nhw wedi bod yn fwyaf amlwg yng nghyfarfodydd y Pwyllgor Cyllid, yn y sesiynau briffio technegol a hefyd wrth helpu i ymateb yn gyflym ac yn gadarnhaol i gasgliadau'r pwyllgor. Roedd gwaith y pwyllgor hwnnw wedi ei gymhlethu ymhellach gan y newid yn natur treth tir y dreth stamp wrth i’r Bil fynd gerbron y Pwyllgor Cyllid. A gaf i ddiolch unwaith eto i Gadeirydd y pwyllgor, Simon Thomas, yn benodol, am y modd y cynhaliodd y broses graffu ac i holl aelodau'r pwyllgor am eu dull gofalus ac adeiladol o sicrhau bod y Bil y gorau a all fod? Rwyf hefyd yn ddiolchgar wrth gwrs i Gadeirydd ac aelodau'r Pwyllgor Materion Cyfansoddiadol a Deddfwriaethol am eu craffu manwl a'r adroddiadau a ddeilliodd o hynny.

Dirprwy Lywydd, mae datblygiadau wrth ddatganoli trethi yn mynd rhagddynt. Roeddwn yn falch o gyhoeddi yn ddiweddar mai Kathryn Bishop fydd cadeirydd cyntaf Awdurdod Cyllid Cymru, gydag aelodau eraill anweithredol o’r bwrdd i’w penodi yn yr haf. Yma yn y Cynulliad, mae treth gwarediadau tirlenwi yn parhau i wneud cynnydd drwy ein gweithdrefnau craffu, i'w dilyn ym mis Ebrill 2019 gyda chyflwyniad cyfraddau Cymru ar gyfer y dreth incwm. Mae pob un o'r trethi newydd hyn yn gam pellach ar daith datganoli, er ei fod yn un sydd wedi cymryd 800 mlynedd i’w wireddu. Gyda hynny mewn golwg, gofynnaf i'r Aelodau am eu cefnogaeth wrth roi’r Bil hwn ar y llyfr statud y prynhawn yma.

I’m very pleased to say that Plaid Cymru will support this Bill today, and I would like to extend my own thanks to the Commission team, particularly the legislative team, for their assistance in scrutinising this Bill in committee and in drafting amendments to it.

Very briefly, I would like to applaud the Cabinet Secretary for introducing the draft Bill prior to the summer, which gave Members and stakeholders a chance to acquaint themselves with its contents, and for his willingness to consult with stakeholders. There was discussion during the debate on the general principles that the Bill is a lengthy one and that there are some complex sections to it. Without doubt, having a draft Bill was of great assistance to our scrutiny work as Members, particularly committee members.

The Finance Committee heard from stakeholders about the requirement for a smooth transfer from the old stamp duty system to the new system. I’m pleased that an amendment to ensure that guidance on the implementation of cross-border transactions was accepted—an amendment that will provide greater clarity for those selling and purchasing properties that are partly in Wales and partly in England.

I’m also pleased that the Bill includes a section that will see an independent review of the implementation of the tax after six years. On such an important issue as taxation—it’s the first time we’ve had such legislation for many centuries—it’s only right that we evaluate the implementation of any new arrangements that we put in place.

To conclude, I believe that the approach taken by the Cabinet Secretary in taking the Bill through the process sets an example for future Bills. I welcome this historic Bill and I very much hope that the Assembly will approve it this afternoon.

The Welsh Conservatives will also be supporting Stage 4 of this Bill. Can I also thank the Chair of the Finance Committee for his work in overseeing the scrutiny of the Bill at the earlier stage? It’s been uncharted territory for an Assembly committee because, of course, it has been uncharted territory for the Welsh Government as well, and the Cabinet Secretary and his officials. Can I also pay tribute to the Cabinet Secretary Mark Drakeford for the way that he’s handled this Bill? As we’ve heard so many times, it’s the first Welsh tax Bill in 700 or 800 years. We’ve heard that phrase many times now. Can I also thank you for the way that you’ve consulted with opposition Members and opposition parties, and allowed your officers to consult with us as well when we had all manner of questions?

Of course, no-one likes being taxed, but this Bill was absolutely vital to fill the gap when the UK stamp duty is turned off very soon, in April next year. Ultimately, Cabinet Secretary, we all want the same thing: we want Welsh taxes that are transparent, efficient and that work. A former Welsh Secretary once said that devolution is a process and not an event. Well, tax devolution is also a process and not an event. We are at the start—the early stages—of that process. I hope, and the Welsh Conservatives hope, that it’s a process that will ultimately lead to a more responsible, more understandable and more accountable way of doing devolution. I think we’ve begun that process and I look forward to scrutinising and reviewing the taxes as they’re developed and as they come into effect.

May I also add my support for the Bill at this stage and say, although the Cabinet Secretary is technically right that this is the second finance Bill, for the public, this is the first taxation Bill because this is the first Bill that sets tax rates and changes the way that we collect taxes in Wales? I do think that that will be, if not welcomed, then certainly it will change the way that we do politics in moving forward in this place.

I would also like to thank other members of the Finance Committee for their detailed scrutiny work on this Bill. I’d also like to thank the Cabinet Secretary for his willing assistance and his officials’ willing assistance, but also for the way in which he responded to the Finance Committee and the recommendations made by the committee by various parties, tailoring the Bill where possible to do so, and in a way that was consensual and good natured, too.

I think that there is one issue where we couldn’t come to complete agreement, and that was the issue of whether land transaction rates should be on the face of the Bill or part of an alternative process. At this time, of course, we have agreed that it should be part of another process, but this question will arise again in this Assembly, and, as we develop our taxation policies, and as we have more tax devolution, it will become an issue for the whole Assembly to decide on tax rates in Wales.

Felly, yr adeg hon y flwyddyn nesaf, Dirprwy Lywydd, byddwn wedi penderfynu ar gyfraddau newydd y dreth trafodiadau tir yng Nghymru. Efallai’n wir y bydd gennym dreth tirlenwi y byddwn wedi penderfynu arni, ac ymhen dwy flynedd byddwn wedi pleidleisio a phenderfynu ar gyfraddau treth incwm yng Nghymru. Dyna pa mor gyflym y mae’r broses hon yn mynd rhagddi. Mewn dwy flynedd byddwn wedi symud o fod heb un geiniog wedi’i chodi yng Nghymru i’w gwario yng Nghymru yn uniongyrchol yn adnoddau’r Cynulliad hwn, i fod â bron 25 y cant o'n hadnoddau wedi eu codi a’u gwario yng Nghymru—biliynau o bunnoedd. Y cyfan a ddywedaf ar hyn o bryd yw: nid wyf yn credu bod ein hetholwyr yn gwybod llawer am hyn. Fe fyddant yn gwybod cyn bo hir, ac yn sicr, diolch i'r ffordd y mae’r Bil hwn wedi mynd trwyddo, mae’r arbenigwyr yn gwybod am hyn, ac mae'r cyfreithwyr treth yn gwybod am hyn, ac mae'r trawsgludwyr yn gwybod amdano a bydd yr asiantau tai yn gwybod amdano. Ond rwy’n credu bod gwaith i'w wneud, a fydd nawr yn swyddogaeth yr Awdurdod Cyllid Cymru newydd, dan gadeiryddiaeth newydd, i godi ymwybyddiaeth am bwerau codi trethi yng Nghymru.

Y pwynt olaf yr wyf am ei wneud yw hyn. Er na chawsom gytundeb ar a ddylai cyfraddau treth fod ar wyneb y Bil neu mewn proses arall, dros gyfnod o amser, mae gen i ddiddordeb, ac mae gan y Pwyllgor Cyllid yn sicr ddiddordeb, edrych i weld a ddylem gael dull ariannol deddfwriaethol, Bil cyllidol, Bil cyllid, sy’n dod ger ein bron yn flynyddol ac y pleidleisir arno. Oherwydd rwyf yn dymuno i chi i gyd rannu’r llawenydd a gafwyd yn y Pwyllgor Cyllid ar ddeddfwriaeth treth.

Thank you. I call on the Cabinet Secretary for Finance and Local Government to reply to the debate. Mark Drakeford.

Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. Could I thank everyone who has contributed to the debate this afternoon, and for all the support that they’ve provided to the process when the Bill has been before the committee, and here before the full Assembly as well?

Dirprwy Lywydd, credaf fod y Bil hwn yn dangos cadernid y prosesau sydd gennym yma yn y Cynulliad. Mae'n well Bil na'r Bil a gyflwynwyd gyntaf, ac mae'r broses graffu wedi ei grymuso. Dywedodd Simon Thomas nad yw aelodau'r cyhoedd wedi clywed am y Bil hyd yn hyn. Os na chawsom hwyl arni gyda’r Bil, ac os bydd yn mynd o chwith, yna byddent yn sicr o glywed am y peth wedyn. Felly mae’n ddyletswydd ar bob un ohonom, ac rwy'n credu bod ymdeimlad gwirioneddol o ddyletswydd ymhlith aelodau'r pwyllgor ac eraill i wneud popeth o fewn ein gallu i sicrhau bod y Bil cystal ag y gallai fod.

Rydym mewn cyfnod sy'n symud yn gyflym iawn o ran ysgwyddo’r cyfrifoldebau hyn yng Nghymru. Bydd hyn yn ein tywys i edrych ar y prosesau sydd gennym er mwyn gwneud yn siŵr eu bod yn addas ar gyfer ein cyfrifoldebau yn y dyfodol. Am heddiw, gofynnaf eto i'r Aelodau gefnogi'r Bil hwn ar y llyfr statud fel y gall wneud y gwaith pwysig iawn yr ydym wedi gofyn iddo ei gyflawni.

Thank you very much. The proposal is to agree the motion. Does any Member object? No. Therefore, in accordance with Standing Order 12.36, the motion is agreed.

Motion agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.