The next item is a statement by the Deputy Minister for Health and Social Services on the Children (Abolition of Defence of Reasonable Punishment) (Wales) Bill, and I call on the Deputy Minister to make the statement—Julie Morgan.

Thank you, Llywydd. It’s a huge pleasure for me to introduce this Bill to the National Assembly for Wales.

It gives me great pleasure to introduce the Children (Abolition of Defence of Reasonable Punishment) (Wales) Bill to the National Assembly today. This Bill has been long awaited and long campaigned for, including by myself. And, in fact, Christine Chapman, the former Assembly Member for Cynon Valley, who I believe is in the gallery today, led a debate in the Assembly Chamber in January 2002 entitled, 'Hitting People is Wrong, and Children are People Too'. So, we have a long history in this Assembly.

Its introduction today marks an important milestone in our commitment to improve and enshrine children’s rights in Wales, and in our commitment to the people of Wales to keep the promises we made on the doorstep. We promised we would bring forward legislation to remove the defence of reasonable punishment when we asked the public to vote for us in 2016. And I’m proud that we can honour that pledge today.

Before I turn to the Bill itself, I would like to pay tribute to the work of two of my immediate predecessors who have played such a fundamental role in getting us to this point today. So, I'd like to thank Huw Irranca-Davies, who introduced the Bill with the consultation exercise so enthusiastically, and, of course, Carl Sargeant.

It's fitting that we are introducing this legislation this year, the year that the international community celebrates the thirtieth anniversary of the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child. The overarching aim of the Bill is to help protect children's rights.

I want to be clear from the outset what this Bill will not do—it will not create a new criminal offence. Our intention is to support parents as they raise their children and provide them with extra help and support, if they need it, while making sure that children have the same levels of protection against physical punishment in the law as adults do.

If the Bill is enacted, the defence of reasonable punishment will no longer be available within Wales to parents, or those acting in loco parentis, as a defence to a charge of common assault or battery. It will be removed under both criminal and civil law. While corporal punishment has long been banned in schools, children's homes, local authority foster care and childcare provision, adults acting in loco parentis in non-educational settings, including the home, are able to use the defence of reasonable punishment. So, this Bill removes this loophole.

The Deputy Presiding Officer (Ann Jones) took the Chair.

This legislation will not only remove the defence but it will support a wider cultural change in Wales and make it absolutely clear to everyone—to children, parents and professionals—that the physical punishment of children is unacceptable in all circumstances. The Welsh Government is not advocating letting children do whatever they like. Every child needs some discipline and to have sensible boundaries as they grow up. But physical punishment is not a part of disciplining children or setting those boundaries. This Bill does not stop adults caring for children. This Bill will not interfere with parents' ability to physically intervene to keep a child safe from harm—to stop them from running out onto the road, to help them with day-to-day activities, such as dressing, or with hygiene and cleanliness. It will not prevent them from using alternatives to physical punishment to maintain discipline and address poor behaviour.

And I am sure that, as this Bill progresses through its scrutiny stages, there will be healthy debate about the evidence around whether physical punishment is harmful to children and on parental attitudes. However, I believe that we cannot condone the use of physical punishment, however mild, as a form of discipline or for any other reason. But, already, attitudes towards the physical punishment of children are changing in Wales. It is becoming steadily less acceptable. Children are the most vulnerable members of our society and there is nothing more important than their safety and well-being. While the primary responsibility for raising children lies with parents, the Welsh Government has a very specific role in creating the kind of society in which children can grow up in a safe, happy and nurturing environment.

In developing this legislation, we've carefully considered all the responses to the consultation we carried out last year and the range of international research into this subject. This includes the Wales Centre for Public Policy review, which concluded

'the majority of researchers in the field make the judgment that the balance of evidence is sufficient to support the claim that all physical punishment under all conditions is potentially harmful to child development.'

Rather than improving children’s behaviour, it found that the way physical punishment is typically used by parents is linked with anti-social behaviour and other undesirable behaviours in children. 

The potential criminalisation of parents is something that has been discussed at length and has been raised with me on numerous occasions. I want to be clear: removing the defence does not in and of itself criminalise a parent or any other individual; it is their actions in relation to the law that matter. And our intention is not to draw more people into the criminal justice system. But, by removing the defence, some parents who physically punish their children and are subsequently reported to the police or social services may be charged with a criminal offence in circumstances where that would not happen now because there is a defence they can call on.

This Government understands the importance of providing parents with information, support and advice on a range of topics, including positive alternatives to physical punishment. We do this through a number of ways, including our 'Parenting. Give it Time' campaign, health visitors, other professionals and our family support programmes, Flying Start and Families First. And we will build on this as part of a programme of support alongside the legislation, because, to be really effective, this Bill must be accompanied by a well-planned information campaign.

If the Bill is enacted, if it passes through this Assembly, we must ensure that people know that the law is changing. We will therefore make sure there is sufficient time between Royal Assent and the commencement of the legislation for a public campaign to be carried out.  

Another issue that has been raised with me has been the potential impact on the police, social services and others, and I think we have to—and we have looked carefully at what happened when similar legislation was introduced in New Zealand. There may be an increase in social services referrals and police calls as a result, but predicting the impact is difficult because there's no precedent in the UK for removing the defence and current reporting and recording practices make it difficult to gain an accurate baseline of current activity. We will continue to work closely with the police, Crown Prosecution Service and social services, and we're working with local authorities to collect data to monitor the impact of the Bill. 

Deputy Presiding Officer, I'm proud to be able to introduce this Bill to the Assembly today. I look forward very much to working with Members and with the scrutiny committee over the coming months as the Bill progresses. I hope we will have the support of Members across the Chamber in protecting children and in protecting children’s rights in Wales. Thank you.

Diolch, Deputy Presiding Officer. I have to start at the onset by saying that I really do respect the Member in question bringing this Bill forward for the work that you've done and you continue to do in safeguarding our children across Wales, and I share in your hopes, your aims and your ambitions on much of the work that we seek to work together on, but, I think, on this one, I would like to reference the fact that you say that there's been a desire to have this since 2002—I still don't believe that we're there yet when it comes to the evidence that makes this Bill actually right to be bringing forward at this time. Because, as you've rightly pointed out in your own statement, Deputy Minister—you do make the point that you're currently collating the impact this Bill will have. There isn't the data out there that tells us how big the problem is in Wales and, so, for me, I like to see legislation passed by this institution that actually is going to make a difference and this currently is so subjective an issue I think all constituency AMs will already have started receiving correspondence, and the scales of balance at the moment in my own constituency are such that the concerns that are coming forward already on this actually tell me that there's more work to be done before this is introduced as a piece of legislation.

Now, I note that this is technically—. I mean, we have a bilingual Bill coming before us, but it is literally on one side of an A4, and, for me, I'll just reiterate why I'm concerned: this is a Bill that will remove physical punishment as a reasonable defence and prohibit smacking as an acceptable mode of punishment. Firstly, as evidenced by my own role on the Children, Young People and Education Committee, I want to make it clear right here and now that I too believe that I'm an advocate also for standing up for our children's rights and those who are particularly vulnerable. Now, child:

'States Parties shall take all appropriate legislative, administrative, social and educational measures to protect the child from all forms of physical or mental violence'.

Now, I'm confident that all of us here will agree that child abuse is intolerable and violates the Children Act 2004 and the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child. No child should be subjected to abuse, whether that be physical, emotional or coercive control, yet this Bill does not encapsulate the full breadth of abuse that some children can be exposed to and merely proposes to remove smacking and physical punishment as a reasonable defence.

Now, the Member stated also in her statement that this kind of behaviour is associated with antisocial behaviour, and the other issues that I've raised—. I believe that emotional abuse and coercive control and behaviour over children is equally as damaging as actual physical—. Now, I feel this Bill de-contextualises smacking from the broader issue of abuse—and that's what we're really talking about here—that is chronic, systematic and intentional. As we are all well-aware, physical, emotional and coercive abuse often go hand in hand, and, according to article 19 of the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child:

'States Parties shall take all appropriate legislative' actions

'to protect the child from all forms of physical or mental violence'.

This Bill does not do it. Crucially, this proposed Bill lacks the necessary detail and clarity. First, it isn't clear how much this Bill would cost, how this Bill would be successfully implemented by health visitors, and how this Bill would be enforced at the ground level. Now, when we talk about cost, we're talking now about social service departments across Wales that are already seriously underfunded, and it may well be a situation, should this Bill be passed, that a report is made, a family is visited, and then the resources—of the police, the health visitor, the local authority, the social service department—I do think we need to be very clear about the associated cost. Furthermore, it is unclear what definition of smacking this Bill is premised on. When we met, there was a difference of opinion, if you like, on what constitutes an actual smack; there was disparity between your own definition and interpretation of that, and even compared to your private secretary's. There's this issue around literal and technical interpretation.

For public behaviour to change, and for this Bill to work in practice, this clarity is essential, as it would determine the literature and parental guidance that will be available for parents, and of course the very enforcement of the law. The enforcement of this law—you know, how are we going to police our homes? Are you not worried that this may actually drive families apart, when accusations are made, when families, for whatever reason—the pressure on our families now, the pressure on relationships, inter-relationships with new families. I really do think more work has to be done on this. Now, despite the Minister's comments that public support of non-physical discipline has increased, from 71 per cent in 2015 to 81 per cent in 2018, it is absolutely unclear how the public will receive this Bill, and whether such a measure will be deemed an interference to parental judgment and families' private lives.

I certainly don't believe that this institution, or the Welsh Government, should seek to criminalise our families, or our parents. And I would urge the Deputy Minister to perhaps go back to the drawing board, and bring forward a Bill that encompasses far more—something that we can all work with, cross party, to ensure that our children are protected from all forms of abuse. Thank you.

Thank you, Janet Finch-Saunders, for your contribution to the debate. You raised a lot of points in what you said; I'll just make a few comments in response. First of all, I think it's important to remember that we are not the first country to be doing this, that, I think, 54 countries have now introduced the legislation to remove the defence of reasonable punishment. We have actually got Ireland very close to us, who have removed it; Scotland are in the process of removing it. So it's not something we're doing that is unique, or odd, or strange. It is a natural progression from the legislation that has already taken place to stop hitting in schools—physical punishment in schools—to stop foster parents, and this is a gradual progression. So, I don't think it is such an unusual thing as you suggest that we're doing.

You talked about the issues that we'll be facing—health visitors and social workers, and people at the grass roots who are dealing with all these issues. This legislation is strongly supported by health visitors, overwhelmingly supported by social workers, and they want to see it enacted. Because they know that there is a clear message then, when they are working with parents, to help them with the very difficult job of parenting. Because I think we all have to acknowledge that it is very hard to be a parent. I've been a parent, I'm a grandparent now, and I know how difficult it is to bring up children. And it is important for the health visitors and social workers, and everyone who's working with children, that they're quite clear in where they stand. And having this defence, it makes it difficult for them, because they want to encourage positive parenting—as I know we all do—but it is difficult when you have that defence there, which does give the implication that physical punishment is acceptable. And so all those people who are working at the grass roots are very, very supportive of this legislation, and, in fact, have lobbied us to do this legislation. So I think it's very important that we remember that.

What we are actually doing is bringing the law of physical punishment, that is the definition—a physical punishment, which is more than smacking or hitting. It is a lot of other things as well. It's the physical punishment. But I accept what she says that there are other things that are damaging to children. I look forward to working with her on the committee, when I'm sure we can discuss all these other issues, because to me it's very important in this Committee Stage that we do discuss the issues that are concerning people and the issues that will be brought up, I've no doubt, in the Committee Stage from the public and which have already started as a result of the publicity of the Bill. But I have been very pleased at the amount of support there is for the Bill so far. 

Unlike the Tories, you’ll be pleased to hear that Plaid Cymru is very pleased to see this Bill begin its journey. I have to add one caveat to that, and that is: 'at last'. That is to say it has taken us some time to get to this point today, although one does appreciate that we have got here, and I do believe that the Assembly passed in principle the need for a Bill of this kind back in 2001. You mentioned 2002, so it’s been at least 17 years since the discussion was initiated, and that is far too long, I understand that there are various attitudes towards this, and we’ve heard some of them expressed today, but it’s the responsibility of Government to lead behavioural change, so I’m very pleased that we are beginning this journey. And my party has been at the heart of the effort to deliver this, with former Members such as Jocelyn Davies, Lindsay Whittle and others playing a key role in the attempt to abolish the defence of reasonable punishment, and we included a pledge in our manifesto for the 2016 election to introduce legislation to that end. Passing this Bill would mean that children in Wales would have the same defence against corporal punishment as adults.

It is an absurd situation at the moment. Why on earth are children now treated differently to adults? Why on earth do we not need a defence against reasonable punishment for one individual using physical force against another individual, but that there is a defence of using physical punishment against a child? One of the clearest signs of a civilised society is the way in which we treat vulnerable groups within our society, and passing this Bill would support children’s rights and would ensure that Wales complies fully with article 19 of the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child, which of course requires that the state takes all necessary and appropriate steps to safeguard children.

I would like to pursue two issues—two questions, if you like—this afternoon. There are over 50 nations worldwide who have abolished the reasonable punishment defence, so my first question is: what lessons can Wales learn from the experiences of those nations—not only Sweden, Ireland, Germany, Finland, New Zealand, but a whole host of other nations too? Positive lessons that we could benefit from, but also lessons in terms of how we can introduce this legislation in a more effective way.

My second question relates to positive parenting. There’s increasing evidence available that demonstrates that physical punishment is not effective and that it does damage children both physically and emotionally. And there are more and more parents who recognise that now, and attitudes towards bringing up children are changing. But it’s not always easy to know which techniques are best used in order to teach children that there are boundaries that should not be crossed. And I have to say, from my own experience as a single parent to four young children with only six years separating them, separating the youngest and the oldest, I know that parenting requires all sorts of skills and skills that, often, need to be learnt. Being a parent is one of the best jobs in the world, being a parent is one of the most important roles in the world, but being a parent can also be very challenging indeed. So, I believe, along with introducing this new legislation that we warmly welcome on these benches, we do need positive parenting programmes in place across Wales.

So, my second question is: will there be sufficient resources allocated in order to provide programmes of that kind? I don’t believe that it’s enough to extend the current provision, which is provided through Flying Start and so on. I’ve seen some of those in operation, and they can work superbly well, but they don’t reach everyone, and we do need to reach everyone. So, are there sufficient resources to do that? I look forward to the scrutiny work on this Bill, as a member of the children and young people’s committee over the next few weeks. Thank you.

Thank you very much, Siân, and I really do appreciate the support you're giving to this legislation, because I know that your party has been very supportive—and Jocelyn and Lindsay were tremendous—and I believe Helen Mary Jones was very supportive in the previous Assembly. And I think we are united in wanting to improve the lives of children. So, thank you very much for your support.

Of the two questions that you ask, as you say, over 50 nations—I think 54 nations—have now abolished the defence and more are thinking about doing it, so I do think it is something that, eventually, will be everywhere. I think that there are lessons to be learned. One of the things that I think is very important is that from the introduction of the legislation, when it receives Royal Assent, there should be sufficient time for us to allow it to bed in. So, we are thinking of a considerable period of time, up to two years, and the Ministers will be able to introduce it when they feel the time is right. Because I think it's very important that everybody is aware of the change, and in order to do that, we'll have a big public awareness campaign, which is very important, and then, it's very important as well that the front-line staff, the universal people who go to everybody—. Because every mother will have a midwife and a health visitor, and it's really important that we're able to get the message through them about what the change of the law is so that people know what the change of the law is. So, I think that's very, very important and I think we have learnt that.

The other thing that we have learnt, which links into your second question, is that changing a law by itself doesn't mean a lot. It's got to be accompanied by the information, but it's also got to be accompanied by support for parents. And that, I think, is absolutely crucial. So, we see ourselves increasing the support for parents. As you say, Flying Start and Families First are huge measures of support, but they don't necessarily go to every family who are in need. So, the health visitors and the midwives are absolutely essential—that they are able to take the message. And, of course, there is the Welsh Government programme, 'Parenting. Give it time.', which is something that is being widely used, and we do intend to increase the amount of support that's given.

What we have learned from other countries is that there often has been a lot of concern, trepidation and just reasonable anxieties when this sort of legislation comes in, but that, quite often, very swiftly after the legislation happens, the mood moves on and people wonder what all the fuss was about, really. I am pretty sure that that's what'll happen here, that we will be able to move on after, I hope, the legislation is passed. And I think that's what we have learned from other countries, that there wasn't much anxiety after the change had taken place, and not one country, even with a change of government, has tried to reverse the legislation. So, I think we've certainly learned that, once it comes in, I think that will be when the change of legislation will really influence the mood in the country. So, again, thank you for your support.

I'd very much like to congratulate Julie Morgan and, indeed, Chris Chapman, for their really resilient work in keeping going on what was a very unpopular issue, and some of the scars on your back are from Members of our own party as well as from wider members of society. It's wonderful to see you introducing this legislation here today.

Becoming a parent doesn't come with instructions and it's our job to promote society's responsibilities towards all our children, whether we are parents or not. Of course, that starts with the UK Government, whose deplorable reduction in the value of child benefit and child related tax credits and benefits over the last nine years has plunged even more children into poverty. But this is another way in which we can support those children who are most in need of society's help.

One of the most vocal opponents of this piece of legislation is my constituent. I can find no reason to suppose that she isn't a completely excellent and caring mother, but I am simply not persuaded by her arguments that she needs to be able to smack her children in order to keep them safe. I've explained that I cannot find any evidence that smacking is anything other than harmful to a child. We have to remember that the child is defenceless, unable to assert their rights and entirely dependent on adults for their well-being, and the younger they are, the more that holds true. So, I really commend this initiative and I'm sure it will make for a better Wales for children.  

I just wanted to pick up on one point in the statement you made, Minister, which is the research done by the Wales Centre for Public Policy. You indicated that, rather than improving a child's behaviour, they found that the way physical punishment is typically used by parents is linked with anti-social behaviour and other undesirable behaviours in children, and I wondered if you could say a little bit more about that, because it seems to me that that is very, very important evidence.

Well, I thank Jenny Rathbone very much for her support and the support she has given to this as well in the past. I certainly agree that becoming a parent doesn't come easily and you're not given something that tells you how you should be a parent. Obviously, there are many stresses on parents, and she refers to the changes in welfare benefits, which, of course, does bring additional stress.

I think the point that she makes about the child being defenceless is a very strong point, because I think that's what really got me involved in this in the beginning—the thought of a big person using physical punishment against a little person. I mean, it just does not seem right that that should happen. That's really what made me feel very strongly right from the beginning that this is something that we should legislate about. So, I certainly support her in the fact that children are so defenceless. And, it does seem to me, why is it necessary to think that you do need to be able to use physical punishment in order to bring up your child? So, I am hoping that when we have the opportunity to discuss these issues widely—and I think during the passage of this Bill, we will have that opportunity to discuss all aspects of parenting, which I think will be a help to families and children—people who are very concerned about it perhaps will be able to change their views. And I'm thinking of her constituent, who, I concur, I'm sure is a very good parent, but obviously feels the need to be able to use physical punishment against her child. 

In terms of the research, I think I did say when I was responding to the research that the majority of researchers in the field make the judgment that all physical punishment under all conditions is potentially harmful to children and there is no need to take this risk when there are non-physical approaches to discipline available. Obviously, there is a variety of views; researchers do present a variety of views, but that is the overall conclusion. But, there has been more recent research that has come out, which is quite wide research, bringing in different pieces of research, which does say that anti-social behaviour, particularly among young teenagers, can be associated with using physical punishment at an early age—that they are more likely to get involved in fights. So, that is a fairly recent bit of research. But, once again, I thank Jenny Rathbone for her support and her contribution. 

Thanks, Minister, for your statement today. I do appreciate that for many Members of the Chamber, and several past Members who have been mentioned, this has been a long campaign. It is an emotive issue, so I am mindful of what I say, but I think we do need to look carefully at any proposed legislation in this area.

Minister, you say that this proposed legislation merely closes a loophole and that it doesn't create a new criminal offence. I agree that, technically, that's the case, but Crown Prosecution Service guidelines are quite clear on where the law lies on this currently. Currently, the defence for smacking a child only covers reasonable chastisement. So, logically, people who are unreasonably punishing a child in a physical manner are open to prosecution as it stands. So, there is an argument that we don't actually need this legislation, that this could confuse the issue, and that, logically, people will be open to prosecution for reasonable chastisement, which seems to me an unreasonable application of the law. So, how can we ensure that parents are not punished for legitimately disciplining their children who may be misbehaving? What safeguards are there going to be against needless prosecutions in these instances?

There are potential problems of the police, the CPS and social services dealing with a large increase in complaints. Now, I appreciate what you just said, which I think was very sensible, when you said that you were looking at two years to bed in any change in legislation, and that there would be a public awareness campaign. I think that if we are going to go down this road, that is going to be a very important element. Siân Gwenllian was also raising the issue that, in harness with your legislation, we may need more support for parents. You mentioned that health visitors and midwives could potentially be used, I think, in an educational way, in encouraging parenting that doesn't involve physical chastisement and, of course, we need to avoid that as far as we possibly can. So, I agree with all that. The bit that Siân asked you that you didn't perhaps answer was about any increase in resources to fund such a campaign and to increase that public awareness, and also whether there will be any resource implications regarding the police, the CPS and social services, particularly when the legislation first kicks in.

Finally, New Zealand, you've mentioned. You're going to look at—or you are looking at, rather—the example of New Zealand and, indeed, the 53 other countries that have introduced this legislation. I appreciate that you are doing that. If we could have more detailed responses to how they have dealt with this, either today or at a later date in the proceedings. Thank you.

Thank you, Gareth Bennett, for your contribution. You mentioned closing the loophole. It's not just closing the loophole in terms of physical punishment in the home; it's closing the loophole about physical punishment in Sunday schools, in leisure facilities, in quite a wide range of non-educational settings. Anybody who is looking after a child in those settings, at the moment, is able to use the defence of reasonable punishment, which I think is quite a surprise to many people. So, that is a loophole that is being closed, as well as the issue of parents in the home.

In terms of the work involving the CPS, the police and social services, I have met with all those bodies. I met with the police and crime commissioners, the chief police constables, the CPS and the social services, and they are all in support of what we are doing. We will be setting up an implementation group. We will be setting that up fairly soon, and, obviously, if the legislation is passed by the Assembly, that will continue to operate during the period until the final implementation. On that implementation group, we plan for these different groups to work together very closely in order to look at any implications in a very detailed way, so we will be involving all those organisations that he mentioned. Of course, all of them have said that it may need more resource in order to make this happen.

It’s very difficult to actually determine how much extra resource is needed, because, obviously, we haven't got rid of the defence of reasonable punishment before, so it’s very difficult to say how much is needed. We've made an estimate of £4 million over five years, which would cover an awareness-raising programme—a very big public awareness-raising programme—and looking at increased support for parents.

There is more information about what’s happened in New Zealand. It’s very difficult to find out from all the countries that have done this something that you can actually link and use for what’s happening here, but what they did find in New Zealand was that the number of parents who actually ended up in the justice system was very small and, calculating on the New Zealand evidence, it’s been estimated—although this is just an estimate—that, in Wales, it would be under 10 in any year.

I'm really pleased to be able to speak on this item today, Deputy Minister. As far as I'm concerned, this Bill proposes a long-overdue change to the law to remove an outdated Victorian concept. I have to disagree with the Assembly Member for Aberconwy, because most people I speak to in my constituency are actually of the opinion that children already have the same legal protection from physical assault as adults, and I see overwhelming support for this Bill in my constituency. I feel it really is time to bring the law into line with society and I'm also delighted, of course, because it is a manifesto commitment for Welsh Labour from the 2016 elections that we will be delivering on.

I'd like to praise you, Deputy Minister, for your long-term campaigning on this issue and welcome your warm words about your predecessors as children’s Ministers, too. But I’d like to beg the indulgence of the Dirprwy Lywydd also to say a few words in tribute to Christine Chapman, my predecessor as Assembly Member for Cynon Valley, who campaigned so fervently and so diligently on this issue for such a long time. I remember, as a young member of the Labour Party, hearing Christine come in to speak to us regularly at our party members about this issue and her strong feelings on it, and the evidence that she collated over many years from around the world as to the benefits that a Bill like this could bring to young people in Wales.

I'd like to ask a few questions today. Firstly, of course, we have recently seen the establishment of a Welsh Youth Parliament here at the Senedd, and I wonder if you've had any discussions with our newly elected Welsh Youth Parliament representatives on their thoughts about this Bill and the best way that it could actually be discussed and portrayed to families across Wales.

Secondly, I welcome your commitment to promoting positive parenting and the answers that you've already given to Members who have asked you questions around that. I note there is a private Member’s Bill in the Scottish Parliament that seeks to put a duty on Scottish Ministers to promote public awareness and understanding of the Bill that they're proposing there. I wonder whether you've considered building something similar into our Bill here in Wales.

Also, in relation to the positive parenting campaign that Welsh Government will be undertaking, have you given any thought to how this can be tailored to reach more marginalised groups in society, for example, individuals who are reluctant to engage with statutory services or have specific cultural, linguistic, communication or other needs?

Finally, Deputy Minister, would you be able to give any further information on the timescale of this Bill moving forward, and particularly on when the law itself would take effect?

I thank Vikki for her contribution and also for her mention of Christine Chapman and all the work that she did. I would agree with her that many parents do actually think that you're not legally able to use physical punishment against your child now, because lots of people have said to me, 'Oh, I didn't think we could do that'—they have already thought—. So, there is this mood, a change of mood. I think things are changing in relation to children and what may have been something that did seem very unique or strange that we were proposing some years ago I think is now coming much more into the mainstream.

The Welsh Youth Parliament—I haven't had a discussion with them yet, but I hope to do so, and I'm sure that the committee, the Children, Young People and Education Committee, when it does look at this, will be thinking of speaking to the Welsh Youth Parliament, and also Children in Wales—I think they would be a good group to speak to as well.

As part of the consultation, Unicef talked to over 1,000 children, and 72 per cent of the children who attended primary schools were in support of our legislation, and 56 per cent of children in secondary schools were in support of the legislation. So, children I think generally are in support of the legislation, and there have been some studies done with children to ask how they felt about physical punishment, and it's been very interesting, I think, to hear what young people do feel about how they feel humiliated and how they feel powerless, and the effect that it has had on them. I think it's very important for us, when we bring in this legislation, that we must remember what young people do actually feel. So, I think during the course of this period of time we will use every opportunity. I know that the officials working on the Bill are planning focus groups with young people during the passage of the Bill so that they can talk about what this means to them, and any help that they can give us. So, I think the issue about that is very important.

It is a very simple Bill. It's just one sheet, removing the defence, and I would really prefer to keep it as simple as possible, just to remove the defence. But our intention is to promote public awareness, and, then, reaching groups that may be marginalised is obviously a crucial part of the exercise, and we are planning to make particular efforts to reach different groups of people who have, maybe, issues, who feel marginalised and who don't readily come to meetings. But I think that, as I've said before, we do have a universal service that reaches everybody—the health visitors and the midwives. I've worked a lot with the Gypsy and Traveller community, and I know you have to make a specific effort to reach different communities so that you can explain what you're doing. So, I think you're absolutely right—we will need to make particular efforts.

Then, on the timescale, we would hope, if all goes well going through the Assembly, that we would get Royal Assent early next year, and then, as I say, we are thinking of up to two years before we actually finally implement the legislation.

Can I thank the Minister for her statement? I know that she's very sincere in her beliefs about the need for this particular ban, and she will understand that I have been opposing the smacking ban that the Government is proposing. I'm very concerned, obviously, about the potential criminalisation of many tens of thousands of decent, loving parents across Wales who use the occasional smack to discipline their children, and I do believe that the overwhelming majority of parents know where to draw the line between reasonable chastisement and child abuse. We've got comprehensive legislation that is already in place to deal with the abuse of children, and people quite rightly are prosecuted using the existing legislation, and they should face the consequences of the law in that regard. But I am concerned about the potential impact of this on parents, particularly given that your own explanatory memorandum draws out some of those potential impacts, in terms of them having a criminal record, this appearing on their Disclosure and Barring Service disclosure, and the impact that that then has on their employment—prohibiting them from certain roles and jobs, and the restrictions that it might place on them being able to travel overseas to certain countries. And I know that you've said that it's not your intention to criminalise parents—I understand that that's not your intention—your intention is to promote positive patenting. But the reality is that that is what will actually happen—that anybody who smacks a child after this law is changed will be regarded as a criminal. So, I am very concerned about that and I wonder what you're going to do to ensure that the application of this law, should it become law, is absolutely proportionate and supportive of parents, and not something that is going to be malicious as far as they are concerned, in terms of hunting them down, as it were.

I am also a little bit concerned about how this will be enforced. You've already referred to, in some of the other questions, how the law will apply across Wales. Obviously, it's important that we have a promotion campaign about any change in the law, should a change come, within Wales, but we obviously have a lot of visitors, from England in particular—day-trippers et cetera—and I wonder how we're going to communicate with them about a change in the law so that they're not unwittingly breaking the law when they arrive and cross the border into Wales if they give their child a smack as a form of discipline.

I heard what you said about the promotional activity that you're going to do, and it clearly states that you've set a budget aside for that promotional activity, in terms of educating people about a change in the law, in the explanatory memorandum that was published yesterday. But there's no additional finance available in accordance with that memorandum for more positive parenting courses in order to increase the capacity of those courses. That concerns me, because I would expect there to be a significant increase in demand from parents who may well want to have the opportunity to learn other parenting techniques. But unless you're actually prepared to put some money on the table to expand the provision that we currently have in Wales, which the overwhelming majority of parents don't participate in at present, I think we're never going to achieve the sort of change that you and I want to see in terms of the availability of the promotion of positive parenting. I'm absolutely with you on the need to promote alternative parenting styles, but unless you increase the resource, unless you increase the capacity of those people who are already putting on these sorts of services, we're never actually going to fulfil the sort of ambition that you want to see in terms of a change in behaviour across Wales.

I do know that there's a mapping exercise, as I understand it, which is under way by the Welsh Government, looking at the different places where positive parenting is being done, and I wonder whether you could give us some information about when you expect that mapping exercise to be completed. You've referred to the fact that positive parenting courses at the moment are universal in terms of the offer, but I don't think they're universally being promoted amongst patents. People expect to go to an antenatal class, for example, if they're having their first child, but they don't seem to be offered in the same way access to a positive parenting course. And I do think that we ought to get smart about offering these sorts of things in the future in order that we can equip people with everything they need.

And finally, because you are the second speaker, and you've had five minutes.

I appreciate that. Can I just ask you about parental attitudes and the attitudes of society at large as well? The memorandum refers to some of the survey work that the Welsh Government has done, but it doesn't refer to other pieces of work that have been undertaken with the public at large. So, there's a ComRes survey, for example, back in 2017, where it made it absolutely clear that over three quarters of parents did not believe that parental smacking of a child should be a criminal offence, 68 per cent of those surveyed in those ComRes surveys said that it's sometimes necessary to smack a naughty child, and they also said that 77 per cent of the respondents said that it should be for parents to decide whether or not to smack their children. That seems to be significantly at odds with the findings of your survey, and I wonder why you haven't referred to the ComRes survey, given that it's the only significant piece of work that has been done with the public at large in your memorandum. It doesn't seem right that that has been overlooked or ignored. And just finally—

No, I'm sorry, you've had six minutes and you're the second speaker. 

I appreciate that, but there's—

No, no, I'm sorry, I've got five more speakers after you and some of them are not going to get called. Deputy Minister.

Thank you very much, Darren Millar, for those comments. Obviously, most of those issues that you have raised are things that we have been considering very carefully. In terms of the reasons why we may reach the stage where parents would come into the justice system, there are quite clear lines that have to be taken into consideration, and the police and the Crown Prosecution Service have to have enough evidence—you have to take into account the public interest and you have to take account of the interests of the child. And as things stand at the moment, there is a proportionate response from the authorities that are involved in the system. That happens already and I thoroughly expect that to continue, and so there is certainly no question of people seeking out parents or pursuing parents. What we're going to do is to provide as much evidence and support as we possibly can and as much information as we possibly can. And I think that this will result in a change of behaviour.

I know that Darren Millar says that many parents don't know about some of the support that is available, but that is linked to what we are intending to do. And this 'Parenting: Give it Time' has actually been very well used and does address all the difficult issues that parents need to address, and will be even more important as we bring in this legislation. For example, it looks at tantrums, it looks at mealtimes, it looks at potty training—all these sorts of triggers that cause great anxiety for parents. So, any response will be proportionate, as it is now. In terms of the change, what we're saying is that no physical punishment is acceptable, and that is what we want to legislate about and that's what we think is the right thing to do.

Just quickly, on why we didn't— . The ComRes survey is obviously a general survey. What I've quoted is what we have commissioned ourselves. There has been quite a shift in opinion, and the opinion has been actually amongst parents, not the public as a whole. So, it is parents. For example, there's been a shift in that, in 2018, 81 per cent of parents disagreed with the statement that it is sometimes necessary to smack a naughty child—81 per cent of those parents didn't think that was right. Two years previously, it had been 71 per cent, and it was the same questions, the same group doing it. So, there had been quite a move. And in looking at parents of children under six, I think the most recent survey has shown that only 5 per cent felt happy about using physical punishment against a child, and the actual number who were still using physical punishment was 11 per cent, but only 5 per cent of those felt that they had done the right thing. I think one of the things that has come out quite strongly in what we've heard is, when parents do actually use physical punishment against their children, how many of them bitterly regret it afterwards and it haunts them. And we have a lot of examples of that. 

Can I just say how delighted I am to be in this Chamber today to see this piece of legislation brought forward? As Siân Gwenllian has said, it has been a long time coming, but that is no reason not to welcome it very warmly today. I'd like to associate myself with everything the Deputy Minister has said about her predecessors, but I also feel that I need to say that I can think of no more fit person on her benches to be the Member in charge of this piece of legislation today and I hugely, hugely look forward to working with her as the legislation is brought forward.

I very much welcome—as I know do the groups and organisations, some of which the Deputy Minister has referred to—the fact that this will be a simple Bill, that it will be a simple question of repeal. I have, of course, heard what other Members have said about there being many issues that we need to do to support children and ensure that they're not abused, but this piece of legislation is not the place for that. A simple repeal is very much what's required, and I'm delighted to be able to support that today as, as Siân Gwenllian says, all of my fellow Plaid Cymru Members will be doing. 

I won't, Deputy Presiding Officer, reiterate the discussion points that have already been raised, but I do want to refer to something that the Deputy Minister has already mentioned about the way that children and young people feel when they are physically punished. We know that the best research now shows that little ones are upset and confused, because mummy and daddy tell them all the time big people must not hit little people—'Do not hit your little brother, that's not kind'. And if, then, in the next breath, daddy is smacking you for having hit your little brother, that's a very, very confusing thing if you're four or five years old. We know that the reaction of older children if they are physically punished, if they are hit—because that's what we're talking about—is that they feel humiliated and powerless, and that there is a direct link then between that and those children then going on to behave worse. That's the link that Members have mentioned—between physical punishment, between adults hitting children, and those children then going on to commit acts of anti-social behaviour. 

I know and I really understand the concerns that other Members have raised here, and I believe those concerns are absolutely genuine. And I hope that, through the passage of the Bill, we will all be able—particularly the committee members, but we will all be able to look again at the best, most current evidence, and be reassured that nowhere where this legislation has been introduced have we had hundreds and hundreds of perfectly good parents being criminalised. What, of course, this legislation will do is to make it very clear to families what is and isn't acceptable. Certainly, from my constituency postbag, there are a lot of people who very warmly welcome that. 

I just want to ask a couple of specific questions. Vikki Howells has already raised the point about children and young people being consulted in the process. I would like to put to the Deputy Minister that it's very important that that includes younger children, and not only teenagers. There are some excellent projects that I know the Deputy Minister is aware of, like the Little Voices project based in Swansea University, where really small children, six and seven-year-olds, have been able to have a voice in policy, and in terms of what they think is going to work for them—I think not so much in terms of the legislation, because they're not going to care about that, but about how they feel that they learn best, we can usefully listen to them. 

Again, in terms of who will get access to parenting services, I hear what's been said about the need for additional resources, and I of course would associate myself with what Vikki Howells has said about the importance of reaching out to what we call hard-to-reach communities. I sometimes think it's a question of communities where we just haven't tried hard enough, to be honest. But I would also want us to be very careful that we don't give the impression that problematic parenting is something that only happens amongst people who are economically poor. As a middle-class single mother myself, there were times when I would desperately, for example, would have liked to have my mum next door, and she wasn't there. So, I think we have to make sure in this debate that we're not giving any impression that we think people living in those communities are any more likely to behave inappropriately to their children than middle-class parents. I think we also mustn't be under any impression that middle-class parents don't need help either.

So, I'd like the Deputy Minister to give some consideration as to how we can—. I would argue that those middle-class parents struggling behind closed doors are potentially one of the hardest-to-reach groups in this discussion, because there may be a question of humiliation in terms of saying, 'I can't manage'. So, perhaps to give some consideration—and I hear what the Deputy Minister has said about health visiting services, maternity services for very young parents, but also whether there are things that we can do through schools to raise awareness and give access to more middle-class families, who might find it more difficult to access perhaps more traditional routes. 

And, finally, in relation to the timescales, I appreciate what the Deputy Minister has said about the need for things to bed in. I would argue that the very fact that we've been having these debates in this place over a number of years has contributed to the shift that the Deputy Minister has already referred to in public opinion. People know what we've been talking about. We now know that 80 per cent of parents of young children in Wales don't believe that physical punishment is acceptable, and they don't want to use it.

So, I think we've been talking about this for quite a long time. It's good to see Christine Chapman here today. I wonder if I can ask the Deputy Minister to keep that two-year implementation period under review. I think that children in Wales have been waiting a very long time to receive the equal protection that most of us here feel that they deserve. I appreciate what the Deputy Minister says about needing to be clear that everybody understands about a change in the law, but I just think that two years, once the law is passed, seems like a very, very long time to me. So, I'd ask the Deputy Minister to keep that under review, if she'd be so kind. 

Thank you. I thank Helen Mary Jones for her contribution, and for her support for this over many years. So, thank you for that. Yes, I think it's very important that younger children are consulted. As I said in the speech, UNICEF has already consulted in secondary schools and primary schools, and we saw the clear view in primary schools that they wanted this law to take place. So, yes, we are planning to consult with older and younger children because the way that this affects them is obviously—that's the key issue. So, we will be doing that. And this is for everybody—every section of society. But we do know with some groups it is easier to reach. It is more difficult to reach some groups because we aren't going out of our way to reach them. That is something that I think we are learning in every aspect of policy and work. But it does affect everybody. And, as you mentioned, mothers or parents who may be more affluent may have exactly the same issues, so this is for everybody. So, I absolutely reiterate that.

And I think working through schools is very important. This legislation has been welcomed by the teaching unions, because, of course, it's been against the law to use physical punishment in schools for a long time, where of course you are in loco parentis—the teachers are—although of course we do consider the whole of the workforce, the teaching workforce. So, that's very welcome.

We can actually implement the legislation after it's received Royal Assent at any point, but we're thinking of two years to make it absolutely as safe as we can that everybody knows about it, and taking into account concerns that have been legitimately expressed. We do feel very strongly that we want to take as many people with us as we possibly can. Thank you.

I have had many e-mails and letters on this matter, and not one has been in support of it, as we already have law in this place. A smack is this. This proposed ban will criminalise the mother, the father or the carer who is seeking to protect their child from danger and trying to draw boundaries. So, a parent administering a small tap will now be treated as a child abuser. Do you think this is reasonable? I do not advocate physical chastisement, but I do advocate staying out of people's living rooms and their lives. I feel it's relevant to tell you my own story—[Interruption.] Can you be quiet, please? I didn't interrupt when you were speaking.

You carry on and I'll control the Chamber when I think it's necessary, thank you.

Thank you. I'll go on with my own story. I was adopted as a baby and throughout my childhood and as a young adult I was both physically and emotionally abused by my adoptive mother. My adoptive father did not take part but he did allow it to happen. Nobody noticed. The punches were in places where bruises are not visible, and my very long hair grew back after it was yanked out when I was pulled out of bed, downstairs for my nightly beatings. I was informed that if I told anyone I would get worse than I'd had already. This, though, was my normality at that time, and, from my own real-life experience I know there is a night-and-day difference between abuse and a smack. It is abusers like my parents who need to feel the full weight of the law, not loving parents. I will not repeat here all of the obvious practical issues with the implementation and policing of this policy as other Members have stated them. I would much prefer that precious police time, social services' and court resources are spent tackling child abuse and not chasing after parents who have administered a tap on the legs.

We hear every week in this Chamber just how stretched our services are, how austerity has impacted, and yet Welsh Labour now want to add to those pressures with this madness. The Welsh public do not want members of the Welsh Government to sit on their sofa, help themselves to their biscuits and use the last of their hot water. Get out of their lives and focus on creating a culture of mutual respect, personal choice and personal responsibility. This is no more than a nanny state invasion of privacy and the biggest single act of virtue signalling I have ever seen in my whole life.

I thank Mandy Jones for her contribution, and I thank her for sharing her experiences with us. I think I can only really reiterate that those people who are working closest with parents—the midwives, the health visitors, the social workers, the NSPCC, Barnardos—all those who work in a professional way closest to parents, they all want this law. They are desperate for us to bring in this law, because they see things first hand and they feel that there's no place for any form of physical punishment. I think—you know, you talk about parents who may tap their child and will they end up being criminalised. They will have plenty of opportunity in the long time we're going to take to let everybody know what this law is to know that that will not be acceptable and they can desist from doing it, and so I think they will have every opportunity, and, if they need help, we will offer help. So, I really feel that it's—. As I say, I appreciate very much your sharing what your experience was, but all those people who are involved and who are involved with cases of abuse say that they want this law to come in, that that will make their job easier, it'll make it clearer and it'll be better for them and for the children that they look after, and it is—. This Government is absolutely committed to trying to make children in Wales have the best possible start in life and I'm very proud, really, if we can make sure that there is no physical punishment in their lives.

Thank you for your statement, Deputy Minister. I'd like to begin by saying that for many years I looked after children who were not biologically mine and they were never smacked or tapped and, likewise, as a schoolteacher many years ago, the same applied. However, the changes you propose to the law have caused alarm to many, many loving and law-abiding parents. Indeed, I have received many e-mails to this effect. Deputy Minister, can you confirm that the majority of parents who responded to your TalkParenting online engagement were opposed to a ban on smacking? How do we encourage change? Is giving a loving parent a criminal record positive to the family unit? Perhaps they will lose their employment and the family may be plunged into poverty.

A former children's Minister told the Assembly that the changes would be not only to criminalise smacking but also any other touching of a child in Wales by a parent for the purpose of administering discipline. For example, a parent who forcibly lifts a misbehaving child would be guilty of battery. Deputy Minister, a large number of parents believe that your proposals will lead to criminalisation of loving parents, and I ask how you answer that and give these parents your response.

Deputy Minister, it's not just parents who are concerned about the changes your Bill will introduce. Dr Ashley Frawley, a senior lecturer in public health policy and social science at Swansea University believes that your Bill will overload already overstretched social services. So, Deputy Minister, can you respond to Dr Frawley's concerns? Dr Frawley also maintains that changing the law will do nothing to prevent child abuse. Deputy Minister, do you believe that changing the law will have any impact on tackling the physical abuse of children? And, finally, Deputy Minister, should your law pass, NHS bodies will treat allegations of smacking as abuse. What provisions are the Welsh Government making to ensure that NHS bodies have sufficient resources and adequate numbers of properly trained staff to fully and fairly investigate such allegations? Thank you.

Well, I thank Caroline Jones for her contribution, and I'd just like to make it absolutely plain that the business of normal parenting will continue as it is now. There will be absolutely no reason why parents can't deal with a struggling child, that they can protect them from danger, that they may have to make sure that they go in a car seat and you've got to struggle with them to do it—just the nature of being a parent, none of that is affected. So, please, I want Caroline Jones to be absolutely sure—and everybody in this Chamber to understand—that nothing like that is going to be affected by this law. What is being affected by this law is physical punishment. It is using a physical means to punish a child, and there are many, many other ways that you can punish a child, and, in fact, children themselves have said things that may be more effective, such as withdrawing privileges or stopping you watching the television or having your phone taken from you, which seems to be the worst thing of all. So, there are lots of things that you can actually do, and that's what children themselves, from the feedback, have said we can do. 'Parenting. Give it Time.', which I think you referred to, is a way of helping parents, though we don't have any statistics from there, but all the research that we've commissioned and the Government has commissioned have shown that a large majority of actual parents are in support, basically, of this legislation.

I think the academic who you referred to is an isolated academic. We have a whole group of academics for protection of children who regularly make statements about how supportive they are of moving towards this legislation, and have actually campaigned for years with many of the other bodies that have campaigned for years.

And then, finally, a change in the law, by itself, I absolutely agree, will not achieve everything we want to achieve. It's got to be done with the support and with the information, but a change in the law does signal to the whole of society here in Wales that we don't accept physical punishment. We don't want that to be the sort of way that we operate in Wales, and I'm really proud that we're able to bring this legislation forward. We're with the tide. Scotland is doing it at the same time; Ireland has done it. I have no doubt that England will do it soon.

Finally, and briefly, Huw Irranca-Davies.

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd, and could I just join others in saying how delighted I am that you're taking this forward? When we were both MPs together, you were an ardent campaigner against the tide at that time on this issue, and there is a sweet synchronicity in actually you standing there now and taking this forward, and I'm absolutely delighted. I think you're in good hands, as well, with your team of officials.

Some of the concerns that have been mentioned today can be addressed, and perhaps I could suggest a couple of ways that could be taken forward. One is, we already have in place some very good leading-edge examples of multi-agency work, where our front-line professionals are bringing together people who work in family support, in teams around the family, in social services. And also, community safety and police work very closely together to identify very early on signs of where families need support, where interventions are needed, and not all criminal interventions, by the way, but where interventions can be more joined up around that family. And that's one way forward I hope she'd agree with.

Secondly, it's what we do with the extension of our early years work, beyond where we are with Flying Start at the moment, how we can join up more of what's done on the ground with team around the family, Families First and other models to make sure that that support is everywhere when we see that families need it.

And finally, in the awareness campaign that has been mentioned, that we use the extensive reach of those organisations out there who are already in place to actually drive this message home. And it is, I'd say in closing—because I've thrown most of my remarks away, Dirprwy Lywydd, under your instructions to keep it short—we do note that in support of this, as we take it forward, are the NSPCC Cymru, Children in Wales, Tros Gynnal Plant, royal colleges, professional associations representing paediatricians, prominent individuals, psychiatrists, nurses, social workers, and also, I have to say, cross-party Members as well. So, I wish you very well in taking this forward; I think the wind is now very much in your sails. And for the country that was the first to actually include violence against children in the definition of domestic violence, the first country to appoint a children's commissioner, the first country to embed the convention on the rights of the child in law and policy making, it's good, and another measure of us being a progressive nation that we're stepping forward on this.

I'd like to thank Huw Irranca-Davies for his comments and also, once again, to thank him for the enthusiastic and supportive way that, when he was in this role, he introduced the consultation. And I do remember being in Westminster, and I do remember trying to move an amendment, and I do remember I had the support of the Welsh Assembly and the support of the children's Minister, Jane Hutt, who came up to support us. So, it has been a long session to actually reach this point, but I do think the mood has changed, and basically, I endorse all the points that you've made, because I think those are all bodies and areas where we can reach out to families and to children. I also echo his final point that there have been some really great contributions here to this debate today. I particularly welcome the contributions of those who have expressed their misgivings and concern, and I do hope that, during the passage of this Bill, we will be able to perhaps allay some of those concerns. So, thank you very much.

The Llywydd took the Chair.

Thank you, Deputy Minister.

Item 4 is the Regulated Adoption Services (Service Providers and Responsible Individuals) (Wales) Regulations 2019. Item 5 is the Regulation and Inspection of Social Care (Wales) Act 2016 (Consequential Amendments) Regulations 2019. And item 6 is the Regulated Services (Service Providers and Responsible Individuals) (Wales) (Amendment) Regulations 2019. Unless any Member objects, I propose that we take the three motions together for debate, unless any Member objects.