The following amendments have been selected: amendments 1 and 3 in the name of Caroline Jones, and amendments 4 and 5 in the name of Darren Millar. Amendment 2 was not selected.

The next debate is the Plaid Cymru debate on rape and sexual abuse. I call on Leanne Wood to move the motion—Leanne Wood.

Motion NDM7229 Rhun ap Iorwerth

To propose that the National Assembly for Wales:

1. Notes the increase in reports of rape in England and Wales.

2. Expresses sympathy and solidarity with survivors of rape and sexual abuse.

3. Regrets the continued failure of many criminal justice systems across the world to offer support to survivors, and regrets that it remains the case that too often survivors are not believed and are forced to relive horrific experiences through insensitive court processes, and cultures within police forces that don’t believe victims.

4. Notes that prosecutions for rape and convictions in England and Wales are at their lowest levels in a decade, and that improving conviction rates is a crucial part of a rape prevention strategy.

5. Notes that the Thomas Commission has argued that only full legislative devolution combined with executive powers will overcome the obstacles of the current devolution settlement when it comes to addressing the lack of justice and accountability of the status quo.

6. Calls for sexual assault support and services to be available and well-funded, and for courts to be adapted so that victims feel protected, not intimidated when giving evidence.

7. Calls for the devolution of justice so that we can address these low convictions rates through adopting international best practice on increasing conviction rates and prevention of abuse and rape.

Motion moved.

Diolch, Llywydd. We are all, I'm sure, aware of a number of high-profile cases recently that justify the need for this debate. One was particularly harrowing: the British teenager who was convicted of lying about being gang-raped and sentenced to a four-month suspended sentence and fined €140. This followed the retraction of her statement to police after an eight-hour unrecorded interrogation session without access to legal representation. The multiple injuries on her body were, according to one expert, said to be consistent with a violent assault. I and many others are of the view that an atrocity has been committed against this young women and that it is potentially a miscarriage of justice. In short, I believe her, and plenty of others do, too. And it's all very well for people to be pointing the finger at the flawed justice system in Cyprus. I would argue that there isn't a country in the world where it is safe for women to live without the fear of rape or sexual assault.

Let's just take a look at the statistics. In the year ending March 2019, there were 58,657 allegations of rape, yet there were only 1,925 convictions for rape. Since 2016, the number of cases prosecuted by the CPS has fallen by 52 per cent. This is despite the fact that there has been a 43 per cent increase in the number of rape allegations made to the police. Prosecutions for rape in England and Wales are at their lowest levels in a decade; and that is for adults. For children, we still do not know the full extent of childhood sexual abuse. Though, according to the Children's Society, analysis from the ONS found that children in England and Wales are over-represented in sexual offence numbers, with rape victims more likely to be aged between 15 and 19 years old, and account for nearly a quarter, that's 23 per cent, of all rape offences recorded by the police, even though that age group only makes up 6 per cent of the population. Around 85 per cent of those reported offences do not result in any action against the perpetrator.

None of this is happening in a vacuum. To address and tackle and turn around these shocking statistics, all arms of Government must take action and responsibility. A poisonous culture that results in victim blaming, the persecution of survivors and the presumption of innocence towards perpetrators has resulted in rape and sexual assault almost having become decriminalised. What is the point of reporting rape or sexual assault when you know the kind of treatment that you can expect? How many people have an appetite to relive the trauma whilst not being believed only to get no result at the end of it all? Why would you bother? So, I salute all of those people who report; you are incredibly brave. 

But I want to touch on the political context under which this is all happening. I don't believe that it is an accident that the former Secretary of State for Wales has not been held to account for what he did or didn't know about the actions of his friend and political colleague Ross England, who was responsible for collapsing a rape trial, forcing a rape survivor not only to have to relive her ordeal once but twice, and her name was trashed in the process. Most women I know—I have to say that most women I know and who I've spoken to about this have some unwanted sexual experience in their history. This stuff is all too common. Most women I know have been horrified that a man who collapsed a rape trial can be promoted politically after he did that, while the survivor's care has been neglected— 

Would you give way, Leanne? 

—or, to be more accurate, she's been further harmed by all of this. 

Would you give way? 

No. 

I have pursued the case of Alun Cairns, and I'm pretty sure there are other senior members of the Welsh Conservatives who knew more than they were letting on, because I believe having men like this who have such scant regard for rape and rape victims in positions of power contributes to the appalling rape statistics that I referred to earlier, and to the reasons why women and men don't report. And I will continue to pursue it, and all of you are invited to sign the open letter that I've written to the Prime Minister on this matter, which can be found on my website and my Facebook page. 

I want to conclude this afternoon with an outline of what we can do about all of this. Yes, we need to challenge and change rape culture—this has to start in school with questions like respect and consent—but we also have to change this political culture, too. A public information campaign making clear where the boundaries are with consent and rape would also be helpful. We have to change so much about the way we as a society deal with rape, and in order to do that we have to have control over the policy levers. The status quo is failing rape survivors as things stand, and we can change that with devolution.

Devolution of the criminal justice system would also enable us to ensure that well-trialled perpetrator programmes were fully available within prisons and probation teams to try to reduce the risk of sexual offences being repeated. I would also like to see changes to the practices within the police, the Crown Prosecution Service and the courts system to address these low conviction rates. We could make sure debrief interviews are statutory when a child returns from a missing incident; this happens elsewhere with good results, helping police to build up patterns and pictures, and helps to improve safeguarding.

The Thomas commission gives us opportunities to improve the overall situation. Thomas concluded that only full legislative devolution combined with executive powers will overcome the failings of the current system. It would give us the opportunity to look at what works in other countries, like the specialist courts in South Africa and the social movements and information campaigns on consent and coercion that we see in Sweden. We can build a new system that works from scratch, free from the patriarchal and misogynistic binds that exist within the current system. Why would we not do that?     

I have selected four amendments to the motion, and in accordance with Standing Order 12.23(iii), I have not selected amendment 2. I therefore call on Mandy Jones to move amendments 1 and 3, tabled in the name of Caroline Jones. Mandy Jones. 

Amendment 1—Caroline Jones

Delete points 5 and 7.

Amendment 3—Caroline Jones

Add as new point at end of motion:

Notes the Thomas Commission's report and thanks the Commission for their work on the possible devolution of justice while looking forward to the promised debate in government time on the Commission’s findings and any impact these will have on increasing conviction rates as well as preventing abuse and rape.

Amendments 1 and 3 moved.

Diolch, Llywydd. I formally move the amendments in Caroline Jones's name. I thank Plaid Cymru for tabling this debate today. It raises important issues that go to the core of what sort of country we are and what we want to be.

I was horrified to read the reports of the case in Cyprus that hit the headlines last week, and horrified again today to see the reports of an effective cover-up of yet more industrial grooming and rapes of children in the care system, this time in Greater Manchester. When did we start blaming victims? When did we acquire an underclass of victims where some stories are more credible than others? And in the case last week, when did young men start to think it's totally acceptable or that it's a rite of passage for a group of 10 or more to have sex with one woman? So, while this debate is about the criminal justice system, there are also broader considerations about education, parenting and the availability of porn and so on.

I turn now to our amendments. I don't accept that powers being devolved to this place will, in itself, lead to the desired outcomes. Indeed, every week, we debate and scrutinise the powers we already have and what the Government has done with them here. When the health service is as challenged as it is; when an improvement that keeps us at the bottom of the Programme for International Student Assessment results for the UK is seen as a success, I have no confidence that this Assembly or this Government would be any better at criminal justice than the UK Government, to be quite honest. But I do look forward to full discussion in this Chamber on the full report in due course, especially with regard to how conviction rates will be improved. While I've expressed my appreciation for the bringing of this debate, and I fully express my group's support for victims—male, female, child and adult—I do feel that we get mixed messages, particularly from Plaid Cymru and Welsh Labour. How does giving a vote to rapists and sexual abusers, as you propose, show support for the victims? How do you reconcile your vocal calls for a reduction in those going to prison with the victims' right to justice? I do believe that the cuts to public services over the last 10 years have had a disproportionate effect on access to justice, and certainly, the Crown Prosecution Service. The latter, to my mind, is definitely not fit for purpose, and changes do need to be made and confidence restored.

I'd like to turn now to sentencing. Those convicted of these crimes must have meaningful sentences that seek to rehabilitate, and yes, punish. In a case uncomfortably close to home, a judge deemed a loss of good character and a fall from grace as enough punishment in a child porn case, where children are sexually abused and raped to create these images online. This sentence added insult to very grave injury—[Interruption.] Yes.

A note of caution in this quest for justice: lives are ruined by false allegations of rape and sexual abuse, and those making those false allegations also make it harder for genuine victims. So, a balance needs to be struck. I'm not sure how that happens, but I think we can all agree that the current processes are just not working and they have actually been going backwards and haven't worked for a long time. This is not right and something needs to be done as soon as possible. Thank you. 

I call on Mark Isherwood to move amendments 4 and 5, tabled in the name of Darren Millar. Mark Isherwood. 

Amendment 4—Darren Millar

Add as new point at end of motion:

Notes that the HM Crown Prosecution Service Inspectorate Rape Inspection 2019 report found that both the number of cases referred to the CPS for a decision by the Police and the number of cases prosecuted by the CPS fell, despite reports of rape to the police nearly doubling.

Amendment 5—Darren Millar

Add as new point at end of motion:

Notes the UK Government’s statement that the findings are 'deeply concerning' and that 'they were committed to restoring confidence in the justice system and providing better support for victims'.

Amendments 4 and 5 moved.

Diolch, Llywydd. As last month's HM Crown Prosecution Service Inspectorate's '2019 Rape Inspection' report for England and Wales said, there has been a substantial increase in the number of allegations of rape, and yet, the number of rape prosecutions has fallen significantly. As it also said, rape is a crime that is committed primarily by men against women. However, it's also perpetrated against men and boys, so in this report, they refer to the complainant. Responding to this report, the new UK Government said that these findings are deeply concerning and that victims deserve to know that they will be supported, and the Prime Minister has been clear that more has to be done to bring perpetrators of violent and sexual crimes to justice. To put this right, they're conducting a full review of the criminal justice citizens response, recruiting 20,000 more police, giving £85 million to the Crown Prosecution Service or CPS, creating extra prison places and making sure that violent and sexual offenders spend longer behind bars. Clearly, this said, there is more to do, but the UK Government is committed to restoring confidence in the justice system, and critically, providing better support for victims. I move amendment 5 accordingly. 

As our amendment 4 notes, this report found that both the number of cases referred to the CPS for a decision by the police and the number of cases prosecuted by the CPS fell, despite reports of rape to the police nearly doubling. It was reported that HM Chief Inspector, Kevin McGinty said that, since 2016, there's been a substantial increase in rape allegations, while the number of rape prosecutions has fallen significantly, which indicates that there is a serious problem. The CPS, he said, has been accused of only choosing easy cases to prosecute, but we found no evidence of that in our report. He said that, while the CPS needs to improve the way it works with the police, the CPS is only a small part of a large systemic problem in the criminal justice process in dealing with complex cases. More work is needed, he said, to investigate the discrepancy between the number of cases reported and the number of cases prosecuted by the CPS. 

The Office for National Statistics has also said that the increase in sexual offences reported to the police is,

'most likely a result of both better recording practices on the part of many police forces, which had previously been found inadequate by Her Majesty's Inspectorate of Constabulary...and increased willingness of victims and survivors of these offences to report.'

But as Welsh Women's Aid states, survivors are often placed on waiting lists whilst capacity for support becomes available. Of course, this is not an England or Wales issue, but a cross-border and no-border one. We therefore support amendment 1, which replicates our withdrawn amendment 2. 

Although, south Wales saw a 179 per cent increase in recorded rates between 2014-19, Dyfed Powys, a 167 per cent increase, Gwent, a 147 per cent increase and north Wales, 126 per cent increase—a total of 2,218 recorded cases—all four police forces saw big decreases in the number of cases referred to the CPS, the numbers charged and the numbers resulting in a conviction. However, I can only find one reference in the Thomas commission report on justice in Wales to any cross-border criminality, and that's only in the context of county lines along the M4 corridor and north Wales. And the solution it proposes is joint working across the four Welsh forces in collaboration with other agencies, without reference to partners across the border. In reality, for example, North Wales Police report increased collaboration with Merseyside and Cheshire forces and share their regional organised crime unit with neighbouring English forces.

I've said this before, but it's true: Wales has an east-west axis of crime and justice, and calls for the devolution of criminal justice to Wales fail to recognise that criminal activity does not recognise national or regional boundaries, and that 48 per cent people in Wales live within 25 miles of the border with England and 90 per cent within 15 miles of the border. Crime is not national by identity. 

In contrast, only 5 per cent of the combined population of Scotland and England live within 15 miles of their border. It's therefore regrettable that the Commission on Justice in Wales report focuses, to a large extent, on the transitory policies of Governments and parties each side of the border, which come and go, rather than whether the constitutional principle of the devolution of criminal justice would create a fairer, more just system for everybody.

Will you take an intervention?

Well, it depends on time; I've only got a few seconds left.

It's up to you to take the intervention. I'll allow more time for interventions.

Okay.

You've just put forward an argument for a European criminal justice system.

Well, no, my concluding paragraph will actually address that. When I raised this last time in the Chamber, I actually discussed with the First Minister, more of a US system, because, if instead, we're going to evolve into a more effective system that recognises the increasingly federalised and the federalising nature of the UK, we will need to look to more of a network system rather than simply trying to draw lines between systems according to where national borders lie. That's how to deal with perpetrators, but that's also how to support the victims.

I just wanted to pick up on something that Leanne said earlier as to how all women have had some sort of assault on them. I was just reflecting on it, because when I was 18 years old, I gave a lift to a young man from a party. I'd never met him before, I knew nothing about him, but he just happened to live close to where I did. And, when I dropped him off at his house, and I refused to go in, he started beating me around the head, from nowhere. I was perfectly okay—I ran off and left my car, and then went back for it later—but the fact is, I never reported it to anybody; I never spoke to my parents about it and I never spoke to my friends about it. How deeply disturbed was this individual, who I'd never met before and never have met since, that he thought that he had a right to beat me over the head simply because I refused to go along with his advances? All of us must have had a similar experience. How many other people did that man do that sort of thing to, and how many of them succumbed to it? If we don't speak up, then people who are seriously disturbed will go on doing this sort of thing.

So, I'd like to congratulate Leanne on the timing of this debate, because, obviously it coincides with the disgraceful situation that occurred in Cyprus. It seems to me that the message is loud and clear that nobody should go on holiday to Cyprus, because the criminal justice system in Cyprus simply won't keep you safe. The failure by the Cypriot police to follow the most basic procedural safeguards when interviewing this young woman is something I hope we will never see again in this country. And I'm assuming that, eventually, it will lead to a reversal of the decision that was handed down in the courts. I'm sure it has been counterproductive—their attempt to protect the image of Cyprus as a tourist destination has actually had the reverse outcome. 

I just wanted to talk a little bit about the conviction rates. I'm pleased that south Wales is actually doing a lot better than the other three police forces, because 55 in 100 domestic abuse crimes they deal with do lead to prosecution, compared with 27 or 28 out of 100 in other policing areas. And this is better, but, obviously, it's not sufficient, because we have to remember that, on top of the ones that are recorded as domestic violence crimes, there are many other incidents that the police deal with that are not recorded as a crime. And then, of course, there are all the others that never go anywhere near the police.

Last week, I was fascinated to listen to Sally Challen and her son David talk about their situation, and congratulations to Bethan Sayed for organising that. For those who are not familiar with this, here's a woman in her sixties who, after years and years of marriage, suddenly decided that she had to kill this man. And, of course, it was after years of coercive control that was in plan sight to her friends, not so much her family, but her friends, her neighbours, and in some instances, the police. So, what could anybody have done to prevent that level of coercion leading to the unfortunate death of somebody who was, obviously, a very unpleasant guy? And nobody spoke up in his favour. All the people at the trial were supportive of this woman—all the friends of the family, the relatives, including her two sons. It does tell us, as Sally said, that there are all too many people who face this sort of situation. What she said in an interview was,

'A lot of the problem is that women don't know they're in a relationship of coercive control. It’s family, friends and relatives who do see it. Somehow they have to speak to that person and convince them to leave. They don't seem to be able to break that tie. It’s a very strong tie and the women are very vulnerable'.

And, obviously, she's speaking about herself, but there are many other people in Sally Challen's situation. So, I think, finally, I just want to say it's so important that we've got our relationship and sexuality curriculum coming up because this is where we will get good relationships built into our young people and that emotional resilience that goes with that.

We don't need to look at this particularly carefully to understand why our justice system isn't working for victims. Between 2010 and 2016, a third of the Ministry of Justice budget was cut. This was the department hit second worst after the Department for Work and Pensions. The budgets of courts were cut; the number of courts were cut from 330 to 150. Now, the impact of that, of course, is bound to have worked its way through the whole justice system, from the CPS and the way that they deal with cases, to delays in courts, to litigants being forced to represent themselves. The support and services available to victims and survivors is also eroded. If you're a victim of sexual violence seeking counselling then you are likely to be told, in making that request, that the waiting list in your sexual violence crisis centre will have closed because of a lack of funding. As a result, mental and emotional health is sure to decline.

Now, the rape crisis centre in north Wales is the only rape crisis service across the six north Wales services providing specialist counselling for all victims, and this what their director, Jane Ruth, said:

'It's extremely challenging to run a service when funding is so uncertain. I have really serious worries about what will happen to all the people who seek support if we aren't able to meet their needs'.

We know that most people in our society see this as being unacceptable. A YouGov poll recently for the End Violence Against Women Coalition showed that a majority of people saw access to counselling as being more important than access to the police or the courts service for survivors of sexual violence. The vast majority of people—82 per cent—acknowledged that sexual violence does have impact on mental health. And significantly too, as happens so often, 60 per cent of people believe that access to counselling is available free of charge already for survivors of sexual violence, when we know that that isn't the case on the ground because of a lack of capacity, driven by a lack of funding.

In March 2018, there were 6,355 survivors on rape crisis waiting lists—over 6,000 people at one point waiting on those waiting lists—and it's expected that the figures will be even higher today, with the increasing demand for support services. I wonder whether the young woman found guilty of lying, having been gang-raped in Cyprus, will have access to professional counselling services, or is she going to have to wait on a waiting list, which will be lengthy at best, or non-existent at worst?

Now, I have no doubt that the failings of the UK Government are at the heart of the problem that we are currently facing. This is what Sarah Green, the joint director of the End Violence Against Women Coalition, said:

'No part of government has ever stepped up and made the guaranteed funding of community-based rape counselling services their responsibility. This is an appalling abandonment of survivors. The current government has seen fit to leave the decision about whether to fund vital and life-saving rape counselling services to a mix of local commissioners including cash-strapped local councils, PCCs and health boards.'

Why can't Wales do things differently? Why not take responsibility in Wales for doing things differently? The devolution of justice could create a more integrated system and that will bring benefits through merging our health and social services with our justice policy.

We have seen much good practice here already in Wales on the ground, thanks to the work of our police and crime commissioners. The recent Thomas report also points to Welsh Government legislation, the Violence against Women, Domestic Abuse and Sexual Violence (Wales) Act 2015, as an example of how we can be innovative, with an emphasis on prevention. Wales has the ability. Wales has the skills to provide a far better service. We must now push to have those powers.

Rape is second only to murder in the catalogues of crime, and it is rightly condemned and rightly severely punished when perpetrators are convicted. But the one thing that this motion neglects is, on the other hand, if rape is so serious a crime, accusing somebody falsely of rape is a very serious matter as well. Everybody knows the stigma that attaches to allegations of that kind. And I do have some difficulty in accepting the terms of the motion where it said

'too often survivors are not believed'.

Well, that may well be true, but also, as we know from the Carl Beech case, and many others, the opposite is also true—that there are many so-called victims who make false allegations and therefore subject the victims to trauma of an unimaginable kind.

So, what worries me about the way in which this motion is couched is that it doesn't seem to pay any regard at all to one of the most fundamental tenets of British justice, which is the presumption of innocence—something that is enshrined within the European Convention on Human Rights, in article 6(2). It seems that to accuse is to convict. We talk about

'international best practice on increasing conviction rates'.

Well, if we assume that we've got to have a quota of convictions, then that seems to undermine the very basis of the justice system itself. It may well be that there are not enough convictions because the evidence doesn't stand up, and, very often, as we know, people get wrongly convicted, and, on the other hand, there are people who get away with crimes because they've not been able to find in court enough evidence to convince a jury.

I'm, I think, the only Member of this Assembly who has had the miserable experience of being falsely accused of rape, along with my wife, back in 2001. I was very publicly arrested before the entire world's media, and a pretty grim experience that is. On the same day, six police officers were sent up to Cheshire, where we were then living, for our house to be raided and searched. And my wife had the appalling experience of having to ring her then 88-year-old mother and asking her to go and open up the house to receive this delegation, because we were actually incarcerated, under arrest, in a police station in London on false charges of sexual abuse. This was all orchestrated, of course, by Max Clifford. He brokered the deal for our false accuser with the News of the World, so that she could pocket £50,000. She ultimately went to prison for three years for perjury and attempting to pervert the course of justice.

I was amazed, 10 years later, when, out of the blue, somebody contacted me to ask if the person who had accused her son falsely of rape was the same person who had accused my wife and me. And lo and behold, so it proved to be: Nadine Milroy-Sloan. She went to prison a second time—for four years on this occasion. And we know from Operation Midland that, very often, the most absurd, it seems—when you read in retrospect what the police had believed—allegations have led to the complete wreckage of people's lives. We know, in the Operation Midland case, people like Field Marshal Lord Bramall were accused of abuse of boys, and the head of MI5, the head of MI6, Prime Minister Edward Heath, the former Home Secretary, Uncle Tom Cobbley and all. And, in the course of tearful interviews with the police, Carl Beech even accused his late stepfather, an army major, of raping him, and said that he had been passed on to generals to be tortured at military bases and sadistically sexually abused by other establishment figures in the 1970s and 1980s. We cannot deny that this is a serious problem as well. So, I wish that this motion had been drawn in a more balanced way to refer to the other victims of this sorry saga as well, which are those who are falsely accused. My old friend Harvey Proctor has been on the television much in recent months as another victim of Operation Midland, and the trauma—I'm sure that anybody who has seen him on television would see—has been etched in the lines on his face.

Now, in drawing attention to people who have suffered this experience, it is not meant in any way to diminish the trauma and injustice that is done to the real victims of rape. Many people are targeted in the circumstances I've described just because they are well known; it is possible to make money out of this if you are sufficiently determined and unscrupulous. But the real victims of false allegations are not so much people like me—in the long term, we've survived and recovered and prospered—the real victims of false allegations are those who have been raped in reality, but whose credibility is reduced in front of a jury by the high-profile false allegations that prove to be absolutely absurd.

What do we mean when we use the word 'justice'? I've looked it up and the Oxford English Dictionary offers two principal meanings: the first being 'just and reasonable behaviour or the quality of being fair', and the second meaning is 'the administration of the law'. Now, as anyone who has known someone who's been raped or who has campaigned to improve the system will know, these two meanings are not always the same; the administration of the law in England is not providing survivors of rape with just and reasonable treatment in too many cases. The statistics do show this in part. In the year ending March 2019, as we've heard, less than 4 per cent of cases reported to the police resulted in a prosecution. But Llywydd, the statistics only tell us part of the story. What about the survivors who don't even feel able to report what's happened to them? The statistics are blighted by the stories they don't tell—the women and men who don't report what's happened to them out of stigma, shame, terror at how they might be blamed or not believed by the people and systems that are meant to provide them with just treatment.

And what of the survivors who do take that seemingly impossibly brave step to report a rape to the police? At every stage of a survivor's uphill struggle to get justice, the odds are stacked against them. Police culture—though improved and though there is positive work being undertaken by the police and crime commissioners, it's still patchy. There'll be questions about what the survivor was wearing, how much they'd had to drink, whether they'd slept with the perpetrator before, how many people they've slept with in general at any time, whether they've been in contact with the perpetrator since. There will be invasive medical examinations that may or may not get the evidence that they need to prove what's happened to them. And then, even if the police are satisfied with the veracity of their story and even if they went to report it before showering or doing the instinctive thing of washing what's happened away, they may still—they are overwhelmingly likely to be told that the Crown Prosecution Service doesn't think there's enough chance of success and that they won't be pursuing the case.

The End Violence Against Women Coalition cites a case dropped by the CPS because WhatsApp messages could be misinterpreted and another where rape within marriage wasn't prosecuted because of a CPS assumption that a jury wouldn't understand the dynamics of a coercive and controlling relationship. But Llywydd, is it any wonder that so few women and men choose to report when they've been raped? Our justice system requires phenomenal bravery from survivors; it requires them to put aside the trauma and to go to a cold examination room and talk to strangers about the worst thing that's ever happened to them. One of the main reasons I believe that justice should be devolved to Wales is that criminal cases like this don't happen in a vacuum. A survivor of rape will likely come into contact with a plethora of services—a GP, a triage nurse in A&E, a sexual health clinic, a support group, a Citizens Advice centre—before or instead of going to the police.

Would you give way?

I'll give way.

Thank you. Just a question, really. If there's a person who has alleged rape in south Wales and is unhappy with the way they've been treated by the South Wales Police and then they maybe go and see an AM, for example, do you think the AM should help them? What do you think the AM should do? And what do you think should happen to that AM if they ignore the person who has presented as a victim?

I can only assume that there is something that I'm genuinely not aware of that you're talking about and I can't answer something that I don't know what the specifics are. I'm disappointed that you've used an opportunity in a debate like this to make that point, genuinely.

It's the principle. What's disgusting is not helping people.

I really do think that this debate will help people.

The fact that we are not fully able to integrate policing into the referral pathways that I referred to and the support networks has a hugely detrimental impact on the survivor, any survivor, of a hideous crime like rape. If policing and justice were devolved, we'd be able to look at less traumatic ways of reporting that involve health practitioners, support groups—all these other services that are already working together—and avoid that cold examination room where things so often go wrong.

Just to be clear: rape is a hideous crime. It's not just a physical act. It is designed to eat away at someone psychologically, to rob them of their agency, to take control in the basest, most degrading way possible. Rape isn't about sexual desire or intimacy. It is about asserting power and taking someone's power away. 

We need a system of justice that gives survivors confidence to regain some of that power; a system that supports them alongside other services; a system that is closer to that principal meaning of justice—providing just and reasonable treatment, a recourse to what is fair. Now, there's no fairness in rape. It cannot be undone. But we as a society, an entire society, owe it to survivors to give them a system that shores them up, that begins the path to make things bearable again, that reminds them that there are people and structures in place to support them. Because the justice system we have now is just not good enough.

I want to thank Plaid Cymru for putting this debate forward, and particularly Leanne Wood, because it's hugely important and it's pleasing to hear that it's being supported, in the main, across the Chamber. Because it is clear that the system isn't working in the way that it ought to be for the victims.

I notice that Darren Millar's amendment asks us to note that the UK Government finds the widening gap between reports of rape and prosecutions deeply concerning and they're committed to restoring confidence in the justice system. I would suggest to the Tories that the first way that they could perhaps restore some of that equality within the justice system would be to restore some of the finances that have been taken out of the system that denies women or any victim legal aid, that denies people access to solicitors, and that also denies people access to the court system because they've closed down. I think that would be a very good place to start, rather than just expressing some words, because they won't change anything at all. In my own region, more than half the courts have closed down since 2012 and the legal aid cuts have created advice deserts. So, people not only can't access justice, they can't even access the information they need to seek that justice. So, we've got some fairly critical things going on there.

But one of the areas that I do want to focus on is the digital processing notices that have been rolled across England and Wales, which require sexual assault complainants to sign consent forms effectively allowing police to download and rifle through their mobile phones and all their other electronic devices. I would like anybody here to just consider for a moment how much of your personal life is stored on your phone. I think it's a massively invasive digital strip search, and I think that, whilst it has been just suggested that that could be used in cases, just because—. There was a case where they used that and somebody was found innocent of the crime. Like all things, there's been a knee-jerk reaction now and women—it is mostly women; we know that—now won't even go beyond their complaint status, because they refuse absolutely to give over their mobile phones and any other electronic devices. So, the number of false allegations, whilst I accept they are deeply damaging for those individuals, are just over 0.5 per cent of all allegations, and yet the complainants are increasingly being told that, if they don't comply with that data request, the police will drop that case. I think that that is absolutely outrageous.

The other thing that I want to move on and talk about is the Children's Society report that when children go missing, whether from home or from care, there should be a debriefing available to those children to seek and find out some answers as to what has happened when they've gone missing and perhaps to get underneath what has happened to them in the meantime.

But I think the biggest change that has to happen is the cultural change—the language that is used when you're reporting a rape case, the language that is used in the court room. And we've seen some really bad cases of that, where the woman or the victim is actually made out to be an individual who has asked to be raped. I don't know of any person anywhere who has asked to be raped. It isn't the case, because you wear a short skirt or a tight-fitting dress or high heels, that you've asked to be raped. I've yet to come across that person.

I equally believe that we need to think about the culture from within, and I absolutely agree with what Leanne has said about Alun Cairns, but I think we need to think about it here too. I do think that sexual abuse is now moving into individuals' homes through their computers, through devices, and I do think that when we have sexualised images of work colleagues put on there and put out there for the world to see, and we have a standards commissioner who says that is okay—. I would argue that it is definitely not okay, and it isn't okay, either, that it is the person who has been abused who has to take that case against and query it, but gets no information at all about how that is proceeding, but everybody knows that the perpetrator was kept fully informed. I think we need to look at our own systems as well, and imaging is important.

I'd like to thank Plaid for bringing this motion and I do agree with much of what Plaid have said today and what other Members have said. I think it's entirely right for people in this place to call out the abysmal conviction rates for rape and sexual abuse. The difficulties faced by victims of rape and sexual abuse are well known, and it appears the situation is worse now than it was 10 years ago. It's just as bad if not worse than it was when I was at university 20 years ago.

Many victims of rape and sexual abuse must feel utterly abandoned by the very people who are supposed to be there to protect them. How must those victims feel when they see the rape and sexual abuse of vulnerable girls in Rotherham and elsewhere go unpunished for years, or the perpetrators set a paltry sentence? How can they feel confident that justice will be done for them when they've seen other victims so appallingly let down?

I agree with much of Plaid's motion, and I agree with them that increasing conviction rates is important in preventing rape and sexual abuse. Only a proportion of rape and sexual abuse are reported. Of those, only a fraction result in a conviction. This is a perennial problem that academics and lawyers on both sides of the border and various women's groups and all sorts of different people have been wrestling with the decades. So, I do wish Plaid had, as part of their motion, proposed some actual policies and changes in the law to improve prosecution and conviction rates that we could examine. I know that you've come out with some suggestions during the debate, but, I'm sorry, that just isn't good enough, and the failure to include them in the motion just makes those proposals look like a bit of an afterthought. The meat and potatoes of your motion is about devolution. It seems that Plaid are more concerned about pushing their own political agenda. Their motion makes two references to increasing the Assembly's powers; it doesn't contain a single tangible suggestion that would improve detection and conviction rates for rape.

The issue of rape and sexual abuse is an extremely emotive one, which is why I suspect Plaid have chosen this subject to hang their campaign for future devolution upon. Plaid could have cited any number of crimes, but they chose the most emotive crime they could, without any regard to the victims and survivors across Wales. This motion is basically sending out a message to rape survivors that they're more likely to see justice served on their attacker if Wales had more independence. That argument is as tasteless and crass as it is unfounded. Tasteless and crass because rape victims are being used without their consent in a political argument that is essentially nothing to do with furthering justice for them, and unfounded because history shows us that, when a matter is devolved to this Government, far from improving, it gets worse. Both education and the NHS have been devolved to Wales for years, and every year are shown to be worse for the people of Wales than education and the NHS is for every other UK nation.

A while ago, I asked the First Minister if he agreed with me that the family court should never give fathers of children born from rape rights to see those children. For some reason, he refused to back my request—a refusal that I think any decent, functional family in Wales will find impossible to understand. Today Plaid has a chance to show that they're actually committed to helping rape victims in a tangible way, and that you use any additional powers that this place may have in the future to stop rapists having contact and influence on a child conceived through rape.

If, today, Plaid fail to explicitly support such a ban in their response to this debate, it will be clear to everyone that, as I suspect, this motion is more about furthering their desire for independence than it is about doing the right thing for victims of one of the cruellest crimes there are. So, Plaid, if this place were given the power, would you support a ban on fathers of children born from rape gaining access to those children? And in the meantime, will you join my call for such a ban to be introduced? A simple 'yes' or 'no' will suffice. Thank you.

I now call on the Deputy Minister to contribute to the debate—Jane Hutt.

Diolch yn fawr, Llywydd. I do welcome this debate and I support the motion. Leanne Wood, you gave such a powerful opening speech—you laid out not only the statistics, the figures, but also highlighted high-profile cases.

Let's just look at those statistics again. Since 2016, there's been a 43 per cent rise in the number of rape allegations to the police, but the number of cases prosecuted by the CPS has fallen by 52 per cent. There's been a 23 per cent fall in the number of cases referred to the CPS for a decision by the police, and this reduction means that, while reports of rape to the police have nearly doubled, a significant number of these cases have not been referred to the CPS. So, I do look forward to seeing HM Crown Prosecution Service Inspectorate's review of what lies behind these figures.

It is vital that people feel that they can report an attack. We want the police to properly record these offences so the right action can be taken. It's clear and extremely concerning that the gap between reported rapes and prosecutions and convictions for rape has widened.

Llywydd, as long as rape and sexual violence remain taboo subjects it's much harder, as has been said today, for victims to report. And, when they do, they must be confident that they will be believed, that action will be taken, that their attackers will be held to account. And that's why this debate is so important. Those that commit these crimes must know that they won't get away with it, they will be prosecuted and they will be convicted. But the Director of Public Prosecutions has commissioned a review into the prosecution and conviction of sexual violence offences, and I've written to the DPP strongly welcoming the review, and I'll share my letter with Members, placing it in the Library.

Rape and sexual violence are about power and control, and our communications campaign on coercive control has driven an increase in calls to our Live Fear Free helpline. We've also seen a rise in the number of reports of coercive control across the Welsh police forces since the campaign was launched, and the next phase of the campaign will focus on control and sexual violence. I do thank Jenny Rathbone for speaking up about her experience and for drawing attention to the Q&A session organised by Bethan last week with Sally and David Challen; I hope some of you saw that publicity. As Jenny said, Sally was subjected to coercive control and she spoke up about the need to address this in schools. So, that's why we fund Hafan Cymru to teach about healthy relationships in school, and of course, as has been said, sexuality and relationships will be a cross-cutting area for the new curriculum.

Justice and policing aren't devolved to Wales. However, with crime and justice within my portfolio, I do work with the Welsh police forces on all aspects of crime that affect Welsh citizens, and the policing partnership board I chair brings together police and crime commissioners and chief constables from each of the four forces in Wales on a quarterly basis, and I will be raising concerns from this debate at our next meeting.

I'm glad the motion includes reference to sexual assault support services, and Rhun, you raised this, as indeed did Delyth. I just want to report on progress on this. The NHS is leading a multi-agency review of sexual assault referral centres provision, in collaboration with the police and crime commissioners, police forces and third sector, helping the police take an integrated approach to developing and monitoring service specifications for the procuring of forensic services until a forensic medical examination service can be established. Of course, counselling, as you've said, is critical for victims. It is available from organisations such as New Pathways and Ynys Saff, and directly through health board mental health services. Of course, Delyth Jewell drew attention to the trauma that victims go through, as did Joyce, and I think the issues that Joyce Watson has raised are very important, in terms of access to mobile phones. I was just going to say that I am aware that the CPS has issued guidance that only reasonable lines of inquiry should be followed, to avoid intrusion into witnesses' personal lives. But we know that that hasn't been the case, and we need to see that implemented.

Also, picking up on Joyce's point about children going missing in Wales, certainly the work that the Deputy Minister for Health and Social Services is doing on this issue is crucial, and Cardiff University is likely to be working on a 'Keeping Safe?' research report that was published last year. The report of the Commission on Justice in Wales does highlight the fact that some victims of crime feel let down by the criminal justice system. They often lack confidence in the system. They fear the perpetrators. The commission work on this is very important, and we don't want their experiences, obviously, to become public knowledge that means that crimes are under-reported.

Also, the report does refer to our work, the Welsh Government's work, to develop and implement policies to tackle crime, working with both devolved and UK bodies, so, of course, the work we're doing on our Violence Against Women, Domestic Abuse and Sexual Violence (Wales) Act 2015 is crucial to that in terms of measuring increasing levels of reporting on abuse and ensuring that we have early interventions, evidence-based intervention, and increasing victim confidence and access to justice.

But the commission is right when it says that more needs to be done to support all victims of crime, and it's telling that the commission's unanimous conclusion, set out in the very first paragraph of its landmark report, is that the people of Wales are being let down by their justice system, and over the last 10 years—and Joyce referred to this—there have been significant cuts to funding across the justice system, including in policing and the Crown Prosecution Service, having a severe impact here in Wales. So, justice should be at the heart of Government and aligned with other policies, particularly those that are devolved to Wales. 

So, once again and finally, I welcome this debate and we will be supporting amendments 4 and 5 as well. The new Cabinet sub-committee on justice, established and chaired by the First Minister, on which I sit, together with the Counsel General and Brexit Minister, will provide strengthened leadership within Welsh Government on justice matters and in discussions with the UK Government. As yet, criminal justice is not devolved. I've highlighted some of the work we're doing in Wales with current powers and responsibilities, but, in line with your motion, I express my sympathy and solidarity with the survivors of rape and sexual assault, and this Government is committed to tackling these appalling crimes and to support victims. Diolch. 

Helen Mary Jones to reply to the debate. 

Diolch yn fawr, Llywydd, and I'd like to thank Members for taking part in this important debate. Rape is, of course, as some Members have already said, a particularly horrible crime. It is also true that most women will have had some experience that we didn't want, and all of us in this room will know somebody who's been raped. You may not know that you know somebody who's been raped, but you do, because sexual violence, particularly against women, is so pervasive in our culture.

There have been so many really good contributions that I'm not going to be able to respond to them all, but I will get through as many as I can. As the Deputy Minister has said, Leanne Wood set out the context, set out the facts, and they are chilling. Several Members mentioned the importance of the culture around these issues, and when we have children and young people growing up in a world that is poisoned by particularly horrible pornography, where boys and girls grow up thinking that things are normal when they are not—. A very clear message when Sally and David Challen came to our Assembly last week: when Sally was asked what could people have done, she said that part of her problem was she didn't realise that what was happening to her wasn't normal, and she said that what we need to do is two things, as has been pointed out—that all we need to take responsibility for not being bystanders and to ask questions when we see patterns of behaviour that we know are wrong. But we also need to start that very, very early so that our children don't grow up thinking that men coercing women and sometimes boys—other men and boys—into sexual acts is in any way normal. 

I think Mandy Jones's question about when did we start blaming the victims is a really valid one. Having been involved in active campaigns around these issues since the 1980s, Llywydd, I did believe that things were getting better, and I'm sadly convinced that now they are not and in some ways we are going backwards. I can't honestly say that, if my friend or my daughter came to me today having been raped and asked if she should report it—I cannot put my hand on my heart and say that I could safely encourage her to do that with the system as it is. And it pains me dreadfully to say that because, as Jenny has said, these experiences are so common, if you don't make a report, you're left wondering how many other women or other victims will suffer at the hands of this individual. But I cannot honestly say that I would say to my best friend, 'Go to the police', because of some of the experiences that we've heard.

I'd particularly like to pick up on some parts of Joyce Watson's contribution, because I think the way that we react to people making allegations of sexual violence, particularly women and girls, is so different from the way we react to other allegations of violent crime. I cannot imagine that a man who has come forward with an allegation of grievous bodily harm against another man would have his telephone confiscated, and would be expected to share all his private information. And I know, because I've had those conversations, as Joyce has, that that does deter young women and girls. We all have probably on our social media profiles things that may be complicated, things that we may want to keep private. Why would we ask a woman to share that? Why is that relevant, when we don't do that for any of the victims of other violent crimes?  

I want to respond to some of the points that have been made about false allegations. Obviously, any false allegation of any offence is completely unacceptable and it should be prosecuted, but we work in a culture where people assume that it is more likely that people who are making allegations of sexual violence are lying, and that is just not true. If we look at all the statistics and all the research that's ever been done, it shows that the level of false allegations about sexual offences is just a little bit lower than the levels of false allegations about all sorts of other things—about on a par in some studies, lower in others.

So, it's really important that we don't say or do anything that feeds into this culture that assumes that when women make these allegations they are lying, because, as Delyth and others have said, that is the underlying assumption. We do not make those assumptions about other victims of other violent crimes. And I'm afraid that this reflects a misogynistic culture. Unless we believe that women are more likely—and most victims are women, though some, of course, are men—to lie than men, then we cannot accept what's going on. And I won't reiterate the statistics that have already been put forward, but I think 3.2 per cent successful prosecutions is the latest figure, and this is only of those cases where allegations are made, and we've heard from many contributors to this debate how difficult it is to make those allegations, how difficult it is to come forward. 

Mark Isherwood in his contribution did, as he always does, make some very good points, but I'm afraid that I find I can't believe what the UK Government is saying now, when, since 2010, as Rhun ap Iorwerth pointed out, the Ministry of Justice budget has been cut by a third. Now, you cannot successfully prosecute, and we don't know—.The Minister's mentioned the review; others have mentioned the review; Mark did himself. And that is very welcome, because there will be complex factors around why the conviction level has dropped, but part of the conviction level dropping will be because the Crown Prosecution Service don't have the resources to go after the more difficult cases. So, if they are picking off the low-hanging fruit, some of the reason for that, I'm sure, will be because resources are so tight. So, until we see more resource into the system, I'm afraid I'm not really very interested in what the central Government is saying. 

I want to touch on Delyth's contribution, because what she said about the shame, the stigma, the fear that people have around reporting is so important, and we do need to change that. And we do need to ensure that our response does not happen in a vacuum, and this is the reason why we support the devolution of criminal justice, so that we can have a consistent approach. I think it was Mark who said that crime is no respecter of borders. Well, no, it isn't, but the way in which we deal with crime is a respecter of borders; it is a political matter—with a small 'p', not a party political matter. And I believe—and I'm glad that the Government is supporting our motion—that we have to have a consistent approach across public services, which we can only have if all those public services are openly and democratically answerable in the same direction. 

I'm very sorry if anybody thinks that bringing this forward is a party political or politically-motivated matter. All I can say is that I and, I know, my colleagues have been contacted today by dozens of survivors, some who've spoken out. One particular survivor contacted me after she heard me and Leanne Wood comment on these issues publicly. And they have thanked us for bringing this forward. And I'm not really concerned if there are some people in this Chamber who are cynical about our motives, because what those survivors think matters to me a great deal more than that. 

There is so much more that I would like to say; I know I don't have time. I just want to comment briefly on the Deputy Minister's contribution—absolutely know her personal convictions on these matters, and I meant also to pay tribute to Joyce Watson for her years of campaigning on these issues, similarly to my Plaid Cymru colleagues. But what I would say to the Minister is that we must ensure—. We don't have the levers yet. Powers are not yet devolved, and we will need to have those debates and ensure that they are. But there are things that we can do now, and one of the things that the Welsh Government could do now is to really invest, picking up on Rhun ap Iorwerth's contribution about the lack of access to counselling. This is something that the Welsh Government could do now, needs to do now. We have seen too many services—local, survivor-led services—losing their funding to bigger organisations who will not understand the victims in the way that they do. 

And I will end this contribution, Llywydd, and thank you for your indulgence, by simply saying that we must all do what we can. It is not good enough for us to sit around and wait for the criminal justice services to be devolved. And we, whose job it is to hold the Government to account, must scrutinise you on how you use your powers now. And I just want to end by saying, to the women, to the victims: I believe you, and I think most of the people in this room do too.

The proposal is to agree the motion without amendment. Does any Member object? [Objection.] I will defer voting under this item until voting time. 

Voting deferred until voting time.

And we will now have voting time; unless three Members wish for the bell to be rung, I will start the vote.