Group 19 is the next group of amendments and it relates to support for volunteers and staff of the citizen voice body. Amendment 44 is the lead and only amendment and I call on Angela Burns to move and speak to the amendment.

Amendment 44 (Angela Burns, supported by Caroline Jones) moved.

Diolch. Amendment 44, the duty to provide information, advice and training to volunteers, is my only amendment in this group. It's because, during our evidence session with community health councils, it was quite clear that community health councils currently undertake training with their members, as do their equivalents in England, namely Healthwatch, and we want this to continue. You might think, 'Oh, well, why do you need an amendment for that? Why do you need to put it into the Bill?' As I outlined at Stage 2, taken with amendment 45, on the right of entry to premises, a duty to provide information, advice and training to volunteers and staff is critical. I want to quote the chair of the North Wales Community Health Council, Geoff Ryall-Harvey, who said that

'local Healthwatch organisations get lots of support and training from Healthwatch England, and the volunteer members of Healthwatch would need to go on a training course' before they started visiting hospitals. 

So, for us, we want to make sure that this is on the face of the Bill to ensure that there's not just a continuation, but a reinforcing and an underpinning of the importance of advising and training our volunteers and staff. There's been much play during the course of this Bill that we want to have more volunteers involved and that we want to really enable them to go out there and act throughout the health services and, of course, now the social care services, and really promote and ensure that what they're doing is absolutely right. 

But this is more than just simply training volunteers. It's actually about the independence of the new citizen voice body. It's about the openness of having different types of volunteers—volunteers who are not necessarily already connected with public bodies in Wales. If we want to attract and open access and encourage lots of different types of people from very different walks of life to come and act in their community, to come and act on behalf of their local citizen voice body, then we absolutely need to make the citizen voice body as outward facing as possible, and that involves training. The current CHCs have outlined many times some of the existing challenges that CHCs have found relating to recruitment requirements, and they believe very firmly that this new body, in whatever form it finally takes, must develop its arrangements in a way that encourages that access and enables people from all backgrounds. 

At Stage 2, Minister, I appreciate that you attempted to reassure me that there were resources put aside for training within the Bill's RIA, which is why I withdrew it. But, despite having £92,500 set aside annually for training, I haven't received an absolute commitment from you to commit to include training within the statutory guidance and, again, I do want to hear that real training will be undertaken and that support for volunteers and staff will be a key part of moving the new citizen voice body forward. I'd just like to remind you that you did admit that in your RIA it was difficult to estimate how many volunteer members the body will require as it will be dependent on numerous factors, such as location, the skill set of volunteers and the time commitment offered. And, although you're working on the basis of the current 276 CHC volunteers, this potentially huge number of volunteers, the RIA provides for just one working time-equivalent secondee to develop all of the induction training resources for staff and volunteers during transition. I pity that poor person; I don't see how they can do it. 

So, I will end my contribution on this amendment with something so ably put by the board of the community health councils. They said that this is much more than having knowledge of the NHS and social sectors—this must be about developing and ensuring

'competence and understanding of the principles and practices of effective engagement and representation'.

We would agree entirely with this assertion, Minister, and therefore we urge Members to support this amendment. 

We will be supporting this amendment. This amendment is common sense, but it’s also an opportunity for me to thank those who have been volunteering over the years within the community health councils. I’ve had the pleasure and privilege of meeting and having discussions with very many of them over the past years, and have witnessed the commitment that exists to ensuring that they as individual members within the body representing patients do everything they can to ensure that the voice of the most vulnerable is heard. Therefore, I’m pleased to put that on the record here this evening. And, yes, we will be supporting this amendment. So that those volunteers who have decided to give of their time can contribute as much as they possibly can, we need to ensure that they get the support and training they require, and that always leads to the need for resources.

In order to ensure the citizen voice body is an effective replacement for the community health councils, we must ensure it has effectively trained staff. As you're only as good as your training, it is vitally important that we place a duty upon the new body to fully equip and train all its staff and volunteers to prepare them for the conduct of duties. If we are to have strong advocates, we must ensure we provide them with the necessary skills to step into the role before them, to represent the most vulnerable often in society. 

I do understand the sentiment behind the amendment, but I still don't believe it's necessary and so won't be supporting it. I certainly don't disagree that any public body or, indeed, any responsible employer, would provide information, advice and training to its staff and any volunteers that perform functions on its behalf. That's an inherent part of being able to deliver on its functions effectively. I've made clear throughout scrutiny our commitment to support the citizen voice body to provide information, advice and training to its staff and volunteers, and that is illustrated by inclusion in the regulatory impact assessment of projected costs for the training of staff and volunteers.

However, I am of the view that including a provision such as this on the face of the Bill is unnecessary. I think it is unusual to assume that a public body will not support its staff and volunteers properly when they are so crucial to its mission. In fact, what we see drafted in the amendment is what you might normally expect to see in a staff or volunteer handbook, as opposed to written into legislation.

The package of support that we have outlined in the RIA demonstrates that the CVB will have the resources it needs to provide training, advice and information to both its staff and members, and it can choose to move that resource around according to its view on its needs. This recognises the importance that we place on the role of staff and volunteers to delivering the ambition that we have for the new citizen voice body.

Angela Burns to reply.

Thank you very much, Llywydd. Actually, Minister, you're quite right in some ways: you would expect that you wouldn't have to put on the Bill a protection about training. But unfortunately, we've done it because during the course of our negotiations, during Stages 1 and 2, and all our other meetings, which you've honestly and openly held with opposition spokespeople, you've watered down the role of the citizen voice body so much from where it was and you've changed the essence of the CHCs in ways that the people who work in the CHCs and the public that the CHCs represent really see and feel.

There's a real concern that we now have a CHC that could be based anywhere and nowhere, and definitely not in your area; that we have a CHC that doesn't necessarily have the right of access to go into certain places to find out what the citizen wants, to spot problems, to make changes; that we're out there trying to recruit a whole load of volunteers who won't necessarily have the protection from litigious other parties who might take great exception; that we're going have a body that may not have the strength to speak truth to the powerful NHS and the powerful social services organisations.

And that's why something as simple and as mundane as the training was put on the face of the Bill, because there are a great many of us in this Chamber who have been trying to fight a rearguard action to try to preserve some of that integrity, that independence and that strength for the CHCs, for the new citizen voice body. Because whatever we think about the citizen voice body, and whatever political objectives there may or may not be about it, it is ultimately the voice of the citizen. I think that, in this particular aspect of the Bill, at the end of this last amendment, which I'm asking the Chamber to support, Llywydd, you and your Government and your backbenchers have watered down the voice of the citizen.

The question is that amendment 44 be agreed to. Does any Member object? [Objection.] I therefore proceed to a vote on amendment 44. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 20, no abstentions, 27 against. Therefore, the amendment is not agreed.

Amendment 44: For: 20, Against: 27, Abstain: 0

Amendment has been rejected

Amendment 45, Angela Burns.

Amendment 45 (Angela Burns, supported by Caroline Jones) moved.

Formally, Llywydd.

The question is that amendment 45 be agreed to. Does any Member object? [Objection.] I therefore proceed to a vote on amendment 45. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 20, no abstentions, 27 against. Therefore, the amendment is not agreed.

Amendment 45: For: 20, Against: 27, Abstain: 0

Amendment has been rejected

Amendment 46.

Amendment 46 (Angela Burns, supported by Caroline Jones) moved.

Formally, Llywydd.

The question is that amendment 46 be agreed to. Does any Member object? [Objection.] I therefore proceed to a vote on amendment 46, in the name of Angela Burns. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 19, no abstentions, 27 against. Therefore, the amendment is not agreed.

Amendment 46: For: 19, Against: 27, Abstain: 0

Amendment has been rejected