The next item is a debate on the Climate Change, Environment and Rural Affairs Committee annual report: 'The Welsh Government's progress on climate change mitigation'. I call on the committee Chair to move the motion. Mike Hedges.

Motion NDM6795 Mike Hedges

To propose that the National Assembly for Wales:

Notes the report of the Climate Change, Environment and Rural Affairs Committee, 'The Welsh Government's progress on climate change mitigation: Annual Report of the Climate Change, Environment and Rural Affairs Committee', laid in Table Office on 25 May 2018.

Motion moved.

Diolch, Deputy Presiding Officer.

At the start of this Assembly, the Climate Change, Environment and Rural Affairs Committee agreed that one of its priorities should be to scrutinise the Welsh Government’s progress on climate change mitigation because of its importance to the people of Wales. It was also agreed that the committee would produce an annual report on the Welsh Government’s progress and hold an annual debate on its content.

I am delighted to open this debate on the committee’s first annual report on the Welsh Government’s progress on climate change mitigation, and I would like to thank the current and previous members of the committee who have contributed to this work. Our scrutiny has been supported by a group of experts from academia, local government and business and conservation groups. The group’s views are reflected in our conclusions and recommendations. I want to place on record my thanks to the members of that group.

Today, I want to focus on two aspects of the committee’s report: our assessment of the Welsh Government’s progress on climate change so far; and our view on the Welsh Government’s future plans and actions.

First, the committee has assessed the Welsh Government’s progress on climate change. The Welsh Government published its climate change strategy back in 2010. This committed to a reduction in total greenhouse gas emissions to a level 40 per cent below 1990 or 1995 levels, depending on the gas, by 2020. Those were very ambitious targets. The stark fact is that the Welsh Government will not meet those targets. More recently, the Assembly passed the Environment (Wales) Act 2016, which requires the Welsh Government to ensure that net emissions for 2050 are at least 80 per cent lower than the 1990 or 1995 baselines. I think everybody can now see the importance of an annual report.

The independent UK Committee on Climate Change has been asked by the Welsh Government to provide it with targets up to 2050. Its analysis shows that we are behind the rest of the UK in achieving our targets. The latest statistics show Welsh emissions have reduced to 19 per cent below 1990 levels, whilst across the UK over the same period emissions fell by 27 per cent.

Emissions from industry have been broadly flat since 2008. The reduction of 31 per cent on 1990 levels is way below the 48 per cent achieved by the UK as a whole. Emissions from the power station sector are heading in the wrong direction. They have increased by 17 per cent since 1990, which is why I am very disappointed with the lack of support from Westminster for the tidal lagoon.

I feel a bit bad about this, actually, because I’m blaming the Welsh Government for the increase in these levels, but we could be reducing them if the Government at Westminster had supported the tidal lagoon, which would have produced energy that would not be costing so much in terms of emissions. So, I’m holding you responsible for the Westminster Government not having done what they should have done, which does seem a tad unfair, but I think it is important that we do hold to account the only people we can hold to account. I wish we had Michael Gove in here and the representatives of the Westminster Government to hold to account, but unfortunately, Minister, it’s you.

As a result, the UK Committee on Climate Change has suggested targets that are less ambitious than those contained in the Welsh Government’s climate change strategy of 2010. This is a pragmatic and necessary approach given the lack of progress. It is, however, regrettable. Our concern is that this does not become a pattern, with the Welsh Government setting ambitious, aspirational long-term targets that have to be revised downwards when reality starts to bite, even if some of these are due to actions beyond their control.

We need a clear action plan, to ensure we have cross-Government measures that can deliver incremental but sustained improvement. This brings me to an innovation produced by the Environment (Wales) Act: the carbon budgeting process. Under that Act, for each five-year budgetary period, the Welsh Government must set a maximum total amount for net emissions, described as a 'carbon budget'. The first two of these carbon budgets, covering 2016-2020 and 2021-2025, must be set by the end of this year. The carbon budgets will include interim targets in regulations and Welsh Ministers must, by law, ensure that the carbon budgets are not exceeded. These carbon budgets will be the main driver for emissions reduction in Wales. The Act also requires the Welsh Government to produce a report detailing the policies and proposals that will deliver each carbon budget.

Scrutiny of these carbon budgets and the associated action plans will be a priority for this committee. There is still some further thought needed about how this new process will work in practice, but it is undoubtedly a useful mechanism to hold the Welsh Government to account. Carbon budgets will, by their very nature, deliver a cross-Government approach. Climate change poses a significant challenge and it is vital for there to be engagement across the Cabinet and across portfolios on this agenda. This is not just the role of the Cabinet Member who covers this area; it's the role of every Cabinet Member. And can I just say, on a personal level, that I'm disappointed that the only Cabinet Member who is actually present at this stage is the Cabinet Member who is going to be responding? Perhaps this has been lacking in the past, but I’m pleased to say that this appears to be improving, particularly with the introduction of carbon budgets. I’d like to commend the Cabinet Secretary on her progress and encourage her to keep up her good work.

Now I will turn to our views on the Welsh Government’s future plans and actions. Our report covers four key policy areas. The first is the European Union emissions trading scheme. In 2016, the industrial sector produced 57 per cent of all emissions in Wales, so there is much to be gained from tackling such emissions. We are part of the European Union trading scheme, a scheme that allows big emitters to trade emissions allowances as necessary to avoid incurring punitive fines. However, emissions from this sector have actually increased by 12 per cent between 2010 and 2016. After we leave the European Union, there will be opportunities to develop a successor scheme, and I hope that we will have a successor scheme. The Cabinet Secretary has expressed her frustration at the lack of progress on this and I share that frustration. I would be grateful if the Cabinet Secretary could set out the latest position on discussions with the UK Government about a possible successor scheme.

The second policy area we looked at was land management. In 2014, agriculture and land use accounted for 12 per cent of total emissions in Wales. We recommended a much more ambitious approach to increasing tree planting and we raised this under our report on trees. Unfortunately, over recent years, tree planting has fallen well short of targets. The recently revised woodland strategy for Wales has a commitment to increase woodland cover in Wales by at least 2,000 hectares a year from 2020 until 2030 and beyond. We are pleased that the Welsh Government has not abandoned its target, but we are concerned that this is just more of the same. There is no indication that this strategy will reach the targets that the old one failed to deliver. I'm fairly certain that the committee will want to give an annual report on tree targets as well, because I think that giving an annual report does hold the Government to account.

We also made recommendations on agriculture and planning. I’m afraid I don’t have enough time to go into these in detail, but I am pleased that the Government is taking forward one of the recommendations in this committee’s first report, which talked about ensuring that future funding for land management is based on contributions to targets for climate change mitigation.

Thirdly, we looked at housing and buildings. We know from our recent inquiry into low-carbon housing that Wales has some of the oldest and coldest housing stock in Europe, and it's not just in terms of energy, it's in terms of life chances for children and life expectancy for adults, which come from living in cold houses. As part of that inquiry, we recommended an extensive programme of retrofit for houses in fuel poverty in Wales. I hope we can debate that report in due course.

I was encouraged to see some of our recommendations reflected in the Government’s consultation, 'Achieving our low-carbon pathway to 2030', for instance, proposals for higher energy efficiency building standards and a long-term retrofit programme. I would also like to welcome the work of the new advisory group on the decarbonisation of homes in Wales.

Finally, we considered transport policy. In 2014, transport accounted for 12.77 per cent of total Welsh emissions. This is an area that has delivered very few improvements in terms of emissions reductions, that is, transport. There has been virtually no improvement since 2007, but as the amount of cars on the roads has increased since then, the emissions per car have almost certainly gone down.

Members will have heard last week’s debate on the Economy, Infrastructure and Skills Committee’s report on the Active Travel (Wales) Act 2013. This committee also looked at the implementation of that Act. I endorse our colleagues’ conclusions that the Act has clearly not delivered on its aims. We expect improvements in this policy area and will keep it under review.

We also considered the M4 relief road and electric and hydrogen vehicles. In particular, our expert group questioned what impact the M4 relief road will have on emission reduction. The Cabinet Secretary told us that total annual user carbon emissions on the south Wales highway network will reduce as a result. This is something we will keep under review.

So, in conclusion, what is this committee’s assessment of where we are? My three key messages would be: progress since the publication of the 2010 climate change report has been disappointing, but there has been progress; future targets must be challenging and stretching, but they must also be realistic and deliverable, and when we come back and report on an annual basis, which we seem to be moving towards, we expect to see progress; and there are exciting opportunities as we see innovations from the environment Act, such as carbon budgeting, coming on stream.

This is our first annual report on the delivery of climate change mitigation. It has highlighted the scale of the challenge ahead. We will continue to keep this subject under review and report back to the Assembly on progress. 

I thank the Chair for his opening remarks on this committee report. Obviously, I'm new to the committee and played no part in formulating the report. I do commend the previous committee members—David Melding to my right and other committee members who have subsequently left the committee—on putting forward such a comprehensive report, and in particular the Chair's opening remarks about annual reporting. 

One thing that does strike me, and I'm sure other people who read this report, is the length of time that the targets are set over. You're talking 20, 30, 40 years to make those big impact changes that we're talking about here and, actually, keeping a constant monitoring exercise on progress—or not, as the case may be—surely is a critical role of any committee in this Assembly, and I think that's a welcome initiative although there is a danger that it could overtake the rest of the committee's work if it constantly annually reports on all sorts of things. 

The Chair's opening remarks identified, obviously, the one glaring anomaly that jumps out at you straight away of the first figure, which is a 40 per cent reduction in carbon emissions to 1999 levels by the year 2040, and, obviously, we have gone backwards—by 2020, sorry, for that figure to come in—and we have gone backwards here in Wales in not keeping up with the rest of the UK in the way that they've progressed to the same target. So, I hope that in the comments that the Cabinet Secretary will engage with in this debate, she will highlight how she will get the lorry back on the road, the car back on the road, as it were, to hit those targets—in a sustainable way, I might add.

Because, obviously, a key part of this report does look at how we revolutionise our transport system and how the Government is working across all the departments so that they install electric charging points, and in particular its modelling around road schemes that very often are held up as examples of increasing our carbon footprint. But, the Government’s assertion is that, actually, if you do end up building some of these road improvements, they could introduce a significant reduction in some of the carbon outputs by getting traffic moving more efficiently and that stop-start that we see in many places on our road network at the moment, that contributes to air pollution in communities the length and breadth of Wales, could be alleviated. I do hope that—I’ve read the ministerial response to the committee—but I do hope that the Cabinet Secretary will engage more fully today with some of those observations around the M4 relief road, for example, because we heard from the Cabinet Secretary in ministerial questions that the public inquiry is now with him, it has been delivered to him, and an assertion of the Government is, actually, if you do build that road, you will help to contribute to the reduction of carbon emissions here in Wales. I think the committee wanted to see more evidence of that and I think that's still to be proven in some people’s minds.

Also, it is a very valid point for the committee Chair to point out. I can remember in the third Assembly, when I sat on the predecessor committee, a particular Cabinet Minister at that time coming before us who didn’t realise that there was an environmental obligation on his department as part of the overall Government initiative—I won’t name and shame—and all of a sudden his official did tug his arm and say, 'Well, actually, there is this obligation on you as a Minister to report annually to the First Minister about what progress your department is doing.' And it is important that Government collectively work to meet this agenda.

We heard it today in scrutiny of the future generations commissioner's department how she does have confidence that there is greater collaborative working across Government, in fairness, but it does depend on the individuals and the buy-in of the individuals because they're accountable for their departments. So, again, in her response today, I do hope that the Cabinet Secretary will be able to give us confidence that those collaborative working arrangements that she, in fairness to her, has put in place are robust, are durable and will not just shift on with the personalities should Cabinet reshuffles happen, they will endure in the Cabinet and the Government structures that we have here in Wales.

From my farming background, obviously, land is a really important part of the things that I have an interest in, and it is troubling to see the lack of forestry and forestry development work that has gone on. The Government, to its credit, had a very ambitious target of 100,000 hectares to be planted, and it hasn’t even scratched the surface of hitting that target at the moment. I think there are still 96,000 hectares to be met if that target is to be delivered in the time frame that the Government initially set itself. And although it’s hanging on for dear life to that target, I do think maybe a more realistic goal should now be put in place because it’s not about admitting defeat on this; it’s about being realistic about what the Government can deliver, rather than just hanging on to a target that was pencilled in and, clearly, cannot be delivered, because in the time frame that has been had since this target was put in for the last three or four years, only 2,500 hectares have actually been planted here in Wales. With the best will in the world over the next 14-odd years, you are not going to plant 7,000 hectares of woodland every year to meet the 100,000 that you’ve set. So, let’s be realistic: let’s give the forestry industry, let’s give the land industry a realistic target to hit.

And, also, I’d like to touch on planning, but I appreciate I'm running out of time, as the Deputy Presiding Officer is indicating, but this is an agenda item that does focus much attention from the voters who elect us to come to this institution. I do look forward to my work on the committee and, in particular, holding the Government to account, but, more importantly, seeing progress in this very important policy area that, ultimately, we can look on and say, 'We did make a difference.' Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer.

I’m very pleased to be taking part in this important debate on the report of our climate change committee. Thank you to the Chair, Mike Hedges, for his introduction of the annual report of the Climate Change, Environment and Rural Affairs Committee on Welsh Government’s progress with regard to mitigating the effects of climate change. There are several recommendations, and, of course, whilst the Government has accepted the majority of them, they also don’t accept a number of others. We’ll go through those now, briefly.

Clearly, the Welsh Government won’t succeed in reaching its target of reducing emissions by 40 per cent by 2020. That’s obvious. The latest emissions statistics in 2015 show that Wales’s emissions are only 19 per cent below the 1990 levels, whereas emissions in the rest of the UK fell 27 per cent below 1990 levels. Clearly, establishing less challenging targets now could be seen as rewarding failure in this context. As others have said, progress on tackling climate change and the public health crisis resulting from poor air quality won’t happen until all members of the Cabinet take responsibility for cuts in emissions in their portfolios.

Now, turning to some of the recommendations briefly:

'Recommendation 5. The Welsh Government should: provide the Committee with details of what it believes should be the requirements of a replacement for the EU ETS'.

One of the reasons that the Cabinet Secretary has stated for the failure of the Welsh Government to reach its target of a 40 per cent reduction in emissions by 2020 is because of the role of the EU ETS. As she says,

'these emissions account for greater than 50 per cent of our total emissions, it then impacts on our ability to deliver the 40 per cent target.'

The scheme that will follow the ETS will play a key role therefore in how the Welsh Government will reach its target for reducing emissions. It's a matter of disappointment, therefore, that the Welsh Government has accepted recommendation 5 only in principle—that old trick of accepting things in principle, rather than just accepting them and going for it.

Now, the EU ETS is one of the 24 devolved areas that fall under discussions on common frameworks under the inter-governmental agreement between the Welsh Government and the UK Government. The Cabinet Secretary feels frustrated—her words—about the lack of progress on this matter, but this is a natural result when we've had to accept the freezing of our powers as a result of the vote in this place on the EU withdrawal Bill. The United Kingdom Government know they can drive the agenda when things affect Wales without having to take any notice of what we say.

Now, turning to recommendation 8, and the Welsh Government committing

'to a national target of 20% urban tree canopy cover', we've heard a great deal about these targets on trees. I won't rehearse the same figures, but trees can reduce carbon and air pollution. The Welsh Government is falling far behind in terms of planting more trees, and it's a cause of disappointment that the Welsh Government has rejected recommendation 8 to pursue this target of planting more trees. It should be a natural requirement of Government to take action and accept recommendation 8, particularly remembering the requirements of the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015.

Turning to recommendation 13 in this paper—

'The Cabinet Secretary for Economy and Transport should review the Active Travel (Wales) Act 2013'— clearly, as others have said, transport is an area where a significant decrease could be made in carbon emissions and it could help to reduce air pollution as well. Now, in debates and questions before today in this Chamber, we’ve heard some talking about how insufficient the Welsh Government response has been to taking action on the Active Travel (Wales) Act 2013. It’s of course a disappointment, therefore, that this recommendation, recommendation 13, that the Cabinet Secretary for the Economy and Transport—the Cabinet Secretary will have to tell her colleague about this—should 

'report back to the Committee within 6 months' on how the review of implementation of the Active Travel (Wales) Act is coming along. This recommendation again has only been accepted in principle; it's not been accepted that we need a review—it's only been accepted in principle. After everything, that's a matter of disappointment. Almost five years have elapsed since this Act was passed. The rates of active travel are the same, and fewer children are cycling and walking to school.

To conclude, the Welsh Government provides £60 million over three years under this Act—about £10 per head per year—which is significantly less than the recommendation of the economy committee of £17 to £20 per head per year. Compare that with a cost of £1.4 billion for the M4 black route. These are the significant challenges. Thank you.

I'm very pleased to speak in this annual report of the Climate Change, Environment and Rural Affairs Committee on the Welsh Government's progress on climate change mitigation. I'm not a member of the committee, but obviously climate change is something that affects every one of us in this Chamber and does affect every department. As the Chair said in his opening remarks, this isn't something that we can pinpoint to one particular committee. And, of course, we've all experienced first hand recently the results of climate change: the beast from the east and the hottest summer on record for over 40 years. So, I think climate change is obviously one of those huge issues that is very important to us all, and we simply cannot deny that our climate is changing. So, it's therefore absolutely imperative that we do what we can to ensure it doesn't get any worse, and I think this report highlights some of the ways in which we in Wales can do our bit, and certainly highlights the fact that we can do a lot more than we are able to do.

I was particularly interested in the section of the report regarding the energy standards of housing and buildings and how they can be improved across Wales, and I was pleased to see that the Warm Homes programme will address energy efficiency in 25,000 homes in this term and that the Welsh Government will build 1,000 new types of homes across Wales through the innovative housing programme. In my role as chair of the Wales programme monitoring committee, I've been lucky enough to visit several European-funded projects that are committed to tackling climate change and improving energy efficiency. As most of you know, SPECIFIC, based in Swansea University, is funded by the European regional development fund and aims to turn buildings into power stations. Buildings as power stations generate, store and release their own solar energy, both heat and electricity. This means that buildings are, in effect, active rather than passive structures, and it means that carbon emissions in buildings are eliminated and dramatically reduces reliance on fossil fuels and gas.

This is huge progress, and I know we have spoken in this Chamber about these developments before, but it is amazing, I think, that you're actually able to build houses that are active, that can actually generate energy, and it just seems to me that there has to be a huge push to make sure that we get new houses that are built to those standards. And that's where, I think, we are not actually doing as much as we could do. If all future houses were built in this way, then we'd see an absolutely dramatic decrease in the use of fossil fuels, and homes would be powered by renewable and clean energy. So, we've got that. That technology has been developed here in Wales, in Swansea, and it is being—. Small-scale developments are using it. But, in Cardiff, we have thousands of new homes being built, because of the population that is rising in Cardiff, many of them in my constituency in Cardiff North, and, talking to the private house developers, none of them will be putting any of these active houses into the developments. So, I think that is very, very regrettable, and I know that there is, I believe, a review of building regulations going on, so I hope that the building regulations will come up with something that will enable builders to go forward in this way. [Interruption.] Yes, certainly.

Thank you, Julie, for taking the intervention. I couldn't agree more with you that the planning system should be used to force developers to put more energy efficient mechanisms in place and eco-friendly homes, and in particular in rural areas. Do you not agree with me that maybe the Welsh Government should be far more proactive in giving guidance to planning authorities to allow permissions, in areas that maybe wouldn't get that permission, if the house meets those eco-friendly credentials? 

In what I was saying here, I wasn't really referring to the planning conditions. I was thinking more of the building regulations for the large-scale developments that are happening. Certainly, I think, in rural areas, it is very important that we do have the highest standards, which you've referred to. But, in terms of sensitive areas, any development there I think has got to be considered on the individual situation. But I just feel that meeting the developers for—you know, thousands of homes are being built and we're not actually taking up this new way of working.

Cardiff council is actually having some passive housing small developments built in, fortunately, their new council housing developments that they're able to take forward. But I suppose I'd just really end on that we need a huge impact in this area, which can really make a real difference to tackling climate change. And I have to say—I will end by saying—that I was very encouraged by what I heard from the Labour conference in Liverpool, and about the great move from there for green energy.

It's a pleasure to take part in this debate, opened by the Chair of the committee in his usual robust and constructively critical way. It's good to see that these committees, which operate by consensus, can nevertheless be robust in their conclusions. I draw a slightly different conclusion from some of his criticisms about the Government failing to meet its targets. I couldn't be more delighted that it has failed to meet its targets for carbon emission reductions, because those can only be achieved at the most ruinous cost to the taxpayer and the electricity consumer. The economic dislocation that this policy has created over recent decades can't be underestimated. We used to export manufactured goods from many industries—now we have exported those industries themselves to other parts of the world in order to avoid the high costs of production that this policy has imposed.

I can welcome certain parts of the report, although it's about climate change mitigation, on other grounds. The proposals to plant more trees have my enthusiastic approval. I planted 36 trees myself last week in my own garden. I think everybody, insofar as they could, should do the same. And I certainly wholly approve of the conclusions of the report in relation to improvement of the housing stock. That's vitally important, and I take the points that Julie Morgan has just made in her very interesting speech.

But I do take issue with Julie in one thing that she said, when she referred to the beast from the east and the hot summer that we just enjoyed as being a reflection of climate change. Well, of course, climate is always changing to an extent, but whether we can draw conclusions that it is changing in the way that she inferred—implied, rather—in her speech is another thing altogether. I remember very well the summer of 1976, although I missed it because I spent most of it in California, and I have been waiting for another one like that for 42 years. So, these things do occur from time to time. There isn't any firm evidence that extreme weather events are any more frequent today than they've been at any time in our lifetimes. I'm often called a climate change denier, but I'm not a climate change denier at all because I recognise that climate change is constant. Climate change is indifferent and unpredictable, and certainly unpredicted in ways, and often in different ways in different parts of the world. It always has done and it always will. The issue is whether that is a cause for alarm. Certainly, the kind of alarm that the more extreme advocates of these climate change policies are putting forward is wholly unjustified by any observable research that I know of.

It's a belief system really and needs to be evaluated as—[Interruption.] I give way.   

What I don't understand, when you say you are not a climate change denier, is that we know there's twice as much carbon in the atmosphere now as there was before pre-industrial levels, and you've got to go back many millions of years before there was enough volcanic activity, presumably, to have reached a similar level of carbon. We know that. Nearly all that additional carbon is man made, and, unless it's mitigated, presumably the temperatures will continue to increase. I mean, that's the big picture, and I just don't understand how you can undermine that. 

Well, there is no linear connection between increases in carbon dioxide levels in the air and temperature records. There are oscillations, and even if you look at the linear regression line in the graphs on the temperature data that we've got, which is itself incomplete in many ways, then you still can't, I think, prove the assertion that you've just made.

That is the key question here, of course: how far increased atmospheric carbon dioxide can be expected to warm the Earth. And this is a very uncertain area of science, not least because clouds have an important role to play, and we don't really fully understand the science of clouds. Indeed, until recently, the majority opinion amongst climate scientists was that clouds greatly amplify the basic greenhouse effect, but there is now a significant minority, including some of the most eminent climate scientists, who strongly dispute that conclusion.

Over millennia, the temperature of the Earth has varied a great deal, long before the arrival of fossil fuels. We had a mediaeval warm period, when temperatures are thought to have been at least as warm, if not warmer, than they are today, and 300 to 400 years ago we had a so-called little ice age, when the River Thames used to freeze over and frost fairs were held upon it. And in the interim period since the 1700s, the Earth has undoubtedly been warming.

I'll just finish on this one reflection. In my statistics paper at Aberystwyth for my first degree, there was a question that said, 'A trend is a trend is a trend. But the question is, will it bend? Will it alter its course through some unforeseen force and come to a premature end? Discuss.' And we are still discussing it today, but now in the context of climate change. So, I congratulate the Government on missing all its targets in such a comprehensive way, and I hope that they'll carry on doing so.

I'd like to thank the Climate Change, Environment and Rural Affairs Committee for their report. Climate change is the biggest threat facing our planet, and those who deny its impact or our role in creating it have thankfully been relegated to the fringe, along with the other crackpot conspiracy theorists, such as the flat-earthers or those who believe that lunar landings were fake. Climate change is real. It is a clear and present danger, and we must do all we can to mitigate its impact on humanity.

Just under three years ago, 195 members of the United Nations Framework Convention on Climate Change agreed to limit the temperature increase to 1.5 degrees above pre-industrial levels. This week, we learned it was already too late for many cities in Europe and that that threshold has already been breached. In fact, every major city in Europe is getting warmer. Closer to home, we learned that the A487 in Newgale is under threat and could disappear in 20 years because of climate change. Pembrokeshire council are having to look at alternative routes.

The Welsh Government set ambitious targets for climate change mitigation by reducing greenhouse gas emissions, but sadly it appears these targets won't be met. I would like to thank the committee for highlighting that the Government's reasons for missing the targets should have been factored into the policies from the outset, and welcome their fourth recommendation, which will ensure that future policies are not as shortsighted. The committee rightly highlight the role that forestry and woodland play in mitigating climate change, and are right to question the Welsh Government's planting targets. If we leave the EU, there may be an opportunity to reshape our forestry and agriculture policies to take account of climate change. The common agricultural policy could then, for the future, focus on land management that encourages carbon sinks and flood management. 

On transport, the committee have highlighted the lack of progress being made on modal shift. There is little evidence that the Welsh Government is committed to the shift to electric vehicles. Caerphilly council have just unveiled plans to ensure that all public transport in the county is electric powered and are looking to introduce greater numbers of electric vehicle charging points. This is the sort of activity that the Welsh Government should be promoting and ensuring it is replicated across Wales. In Aberdeen, excess energy from wind and solar is being used to create hydrogen, which is used to run a fleet of buses. The Welsh Government need now to set an example and highlight alternatives to petrol and diesel.

I would like to thank the committee once again for their report and hope the Welsh Government will adopt their recommendations. Diolch yn fawr.

Thank you. Can I now call the Cabinet Secretary for Energy, Planning and Rural Affairs, Lesley Griffiths?

Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. I very much welcome the committee's report, which recognises the importance of reducing greenhouse gas emissions, and thank all Members under the chairmanship of Mike Hedges. I am able to accept all but one of the committee's recommendations. As Dai Lloyd pointed out, one of them was accepted in principle. But I'm very pleased to say that we're already making progress on most of them.

Earlier this month I attended a global climate action summit in San Francisco, which brought leaders and people together from around the world to address this international problem, and to take ambition to the next level. Through our targets, carbon budgets and policy we are setting out Wales's part of the solution. It was very obvious, the signs in relation to our weather while I was at the summit. Julie Morgan mentioned the very long, wet, cold winter we had this year, followed by the heatwave, and it showed the volatility of our weather. The Greek delegation were unable to come because of the flooding that they were experiencing in that country. Whilst we were in San Francisco, the east coast of America was being hit by storms that they haven't seen for many a decade, and talking to Canadian counterparts, they too had had very similar winters to us, but on a larger level over the past few years.

Regardless of what Neil Hamilton spouts, the scientific evidence is absolutely clear: climate change is happening, and it's likely that greenhouse gas emissions are the most dominant cause. The Environment (Wales) Act 2016 positions Wales as a low-carbon economy ready to adapt to the impacts of climate change. It sets out a clear decarbonisation pathway for Wales within the context of existing UK and international obligations. It includes an ambitious target to reduce emissions by at least 80 per cent by 2050 irrespective of Brexit and any other external influences. We are currently developing the supporting regulations as required under the environment Act.

Responding to the threat and reality of climate change, however, must not only be seen as an environmental imperative. It's an opportunity to reposition our economy, supporting more economic opportunities for people and businesses in Wales, supporting the delivery of better, more efficient and healthier housing and transport solutions. In July, Cabinet agreed to make decarbonisation a priority area in 'Prosperity for All', because we acknowledge its great potential contribution to long-term prosperity and well-being. Andrew R.T. Davies mentioned the fact that I established a decarbonisation ministerial task and finish group to provide the governance framework that we need to maximise collaborative working. I thought that was really important to show that we were working collaboratively across Government. You asked whether it will survive a Cabinet reshuffle. Well, the fact it was put in 'Prosperity for All'—collective responsibility—I think that does show that it is very robust.

Mike Hedges referred to this group as well. Clearly, I don’t have all the levers, and Welsh Government doesn't have all the levers. You referred to the UK Government holding some of those levers, but I think it's absolutely vital that we use all the levers that we do have. I also think it's very important that officials see that, as Ministers, we are very happy to work collaboratively across Government. So, I think the establishment of that ministerial task and finish group has enabled us to move in a much more rapid way than was happening before.

Cabinet considered all the evidence, including advice from our independent statutory advisers, the UK Committee on Climate Change. We've agreed our interim emissions reduction targets and our first two carbon budgets. Whilst I've heard reference to the fact that we have missed targets, I must say we have met our 3 per cent annual target consistently, year on year. Members will be asked to approve the figures in relation to our interim emissions reduction targets and our carbon budgets through regulations towards the end of this term. I've also launched a consultation to explore the actions we need to take right across Government if we are to meet our 2030 target, and my officials have hosted events to bring together stakeholders from different sectors and improve the collaboration and innovation we will need if we are to be successful. I notice recommendations 1 to 3, I think quite rightly, emphasise the importance of stakeholder engagement across Government working to achieve that success, and we've put that stakeholder engagement, review and independent scrutiny at the forefront of our work.

In the meantime, we're not standing still. We do continue to progress our policies to decarbonise homes, for instance. We've established an advisory group on the decarbonisation of homes in Wales to advise Ministers on a programme of action to retrofit all residential properties by 2050 to meet the requirements of the environment Act, and we'll have that report next year. I thought Julie Morgan spoke very eloquently about using building regulations to take this forward, and Andrew R.T. Davies also mentioned planning. As I say, we have to use every lever that we have, and I'm certainly happy to do that.

We continue to work together and make progress in aligning the carbon and financial budgeting cycles. We're tackling public sector decarbonisation, and we are investing in charging infrastructure for electric vehicles. We have to reduce emissions—[Interruption.] Nick. 

Thank you. I agree with many of the points that Caroline Jones made about the need to move to electric vehicles, but would you agree with me that that electricity has to be made somewhere, and if we simply move away from diesel and petrol to electric charging, that charging is coming from fossil fuels and, actually, that can in the long run be less efficient than modern petrol engines? So, we need to ensure that there's local renewable electricity generation that isn't being lost along an inefficient national grid. 

It's very important that we have that, and I referred to Andrew R.T. Davies mentioning planning, for instance. It concerns me that so many of our policies fight against each other, if you like. It's really important that we look to make sure that all of those policies are working to that aim, and that's one area where I've certainly highlighted issues and we are looking to address those. 

We have to reduce emissions, but also prepare for the effects of climate change on our communities, our farmers and businesses, such as the impact of drought, flooding and harsh winters, and I will be shortly consulting on a new climate adaptation plan. I do recognise large strides forward are needed to be taken to decarbonise our agricultural sector without stifling growth, particularly in these uncertain times ahead of Brexit. It cannot be stressed enough that the correct management of the land and its natural resources is critical to safeguarding the environment and achieving our emission reduction targets. Members will be aware that in July I launched the 'Brexit and our land' consultation, and I would urge all Members to respond. But I just want to reassure Caroline Jones that we won't have CAP in future; we'll have a specific Welsh agricultural policy.

The committee's report also makes positive recommendations about tree planting, and I remember David Melding taking me to task—I think it was my very first appearance before the committee after I came into portfolio. I held my hands up, and I think it's really important that we have a very pragmatic and realistic woodland strategy, and I know that's something my colleague Hannah Blythyn, the Minister for Environment, is taking forward.

I think recommendation 8, which is the recommendation we've rejected—I think that single target is unlikely to be helpful in taking forward our policies or achieving our woodland creation goals, but I do want to reassure Members that it's something we take very seriously; I know it's a top priority for the Minister for Environment. The refreshed forest strategy was launched on 26 June—'Woodlands for Wales'—and it does detail how we propose to achieve its aims over the next 50 years.

Climate change is one of the greatest threats we face, and we will not jeopardise the well-being of future generations by ignoring the challenge. The Welsh Government is committed to tackling this important issue and transforming Wales into a thriving country in a low-carbon world. Diolch.   

Thank you. Can I now call Mike Hedges to respond to the debate?  

Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. Can I thank Andrew Davies, Dai Lloyd, Julie Morgan, Caroline Jones, Neil Hamilton and the Cabinet Secretary for taking part in this debate? I think what I found most—how can I explain it—most beneficial was that it was not just a debate of the committee; it wasn't the committee having a debate in public when they normally have it in a committee meeting. We engaged with a lot of other people who aren't on the committee. I think that was incredibly beneficial.

Andrew Davies stated his support for annual reporting and support for constant monitoring, and highlighted something we do not talk about enough: we are here to make a difference. We are here to make a positive difference, and when we attend committee meetings that's what we're there to do. Dai Lloyd highlighted trees—they use up carbon dioxide—20 per cent urban tree canopy cover—. The climate change committee is made up of enthusiasts for having more trees planted, as we proved in a recent report.

Julie Morgan highlighted climate change. Ask anyone over 50 and they will tell you how weather has changed from when they were children. For instance, just to talk about rain, I was used to that steady drizzle that went on from September through to April or May. We had a steady drizzle; now we have huge downpours. I always wore a coat but I never got wet. Now I wear a coat and I get wet. We're seeing a change in the climate. Julie Morgan talked about Warm Homes, and it's really important from a climate change perspective but it's equally important, or perhaps even more important, from a poverty perspective. Far too many of my constituents, far too many people on limited incomes, are living in cold, damp homes. If we can improve the warmth of those homes, then, yes, we'd reduce climate change, but we would also improve the lives of very many people.

Buildings as power stations is the direction that we're moving in, and I think it's one that is beneficial for us to move in, and passive housing—that is something again that is hugely beneficial. What we need to see is greater improvement in battery technology. I still see them for storage and batteries using car batteries. There's got to be a better way of doing it, and we surely must be looking for improved battery technology, which will take us on to the next to the stage.

Neil Hamilton also does a lot of tree planting. I congratulate you on planting 36 trees in your garden. My garden isn't big enough for 36 trees. [Laughter.] But we know carbon oxidizes to form carbon dioxide, and we know that carbon dioxide is a greenhouse gas. We know those two things, so I'm not sure how we can deny climate change when those are two things that are not something anybody wishes to argue about, and I believe a least squares regression analysis will show a rise in temperature over the last 50 years.

Caroline Jones, welcome to joining the climate change—with people who are concerned with climate change. And you're right, the A487 in Newgale is in danger. Other roads are going to be in danger. We also know about those parts of north Wales that are under serious threat. And, again, you talked about the importance of woodland. There's one thing that we perhaps can all agree on: we need more trees.

Thanks, Cabinet Secretary, for welcoming the report. I think one of the weaknesses of people like me getting up is that we don't actually highlight the progress that is being made. I had exactly the same problem as a teacher. Somebody would hand something in to me, and instead of saying, 'That's all very good', I'd say, 'Well, that's wrong and that's wrong.' I think there is a tendency for us and for committees to do exactly the same thing. There's a lot that is very good, but it is, 'Well, I'd like to complain about these things.' 

I think that Government is moving in the right direction, yet we're going to have to reposition the economy. I would like to see more being done on energy in Wales. I know the tidal lagoon is a pet project of those living in the Swansea area, but lots of other things can be done in order to generate green energy. What worries me is that, if we don't do that, then we're going to have more use of gas to generate electricity. We'll then be complaining to the Cabinet Secretary, who's got no control over this, about why she isn't dealing with it.

The 3 per cent annual target's been met. A point that Nick Ramsay raised I think is a really important one that, if we just use electricity that we generate from gas generators, all we are going to do is use up more emissions but not to the point at which you're charging your car. What we need, if we're going to have electric vehicles, is renewable electricity to do it. Otherwise, we are going to be not only no better off but probably worse off because cars are probably more efficient—in fact, cars are more efficient at using petrol than power stations are at using gas to generate electricity and then moving that electricity across the grid. So, I think it is important that we realise that it's in the simple things—. 'Oh yes, we'll have electric cars, we'll have all these gas generators and everything will be wonderful', but it won't. 

But I think we are making very good progress, and I thank the Cabinet Secretary for her response and I thank everybody who took part in the debate, which I thought was very good.

Thank you. 

The proposal is to note the committee's report. Does any Member object? The motion is therefore agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Motion agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.