Item 7 this afternoon is a debate on the Children, Young People and Education Committee's report, 'Bacc to the Future: The status of the Welsh Baccalaureate qualification'. I call on the Chair of the committee, Lynne Neagle, to move the motion.

Motion NDM7112 Lynne Neagle

To propose that the National Assembly for Wales:

Notes the Children, Young People and Education Committee Report—'Bacc to the Future: The status of the Welsh Baccalaureate qualification', which was laid in the Table Office on 3 April 2019.

Motion moved.

Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. I'm very pleased to open this debate today on the Children, Young People and Education Committee's report into the status of the Welsh baccalaureate qualification.

Concerns about the Welsh bac have, over a number of years and all too often, been appearing in the news and in our constituency and committee inboxes alike—concerns about universities choosing not to accept the qualification, about its impact on learner choice and success in other subject areas, concerns about teachers feeling ill-prepared to deliver the qualification. As a parent of a young person who is going through the Welsh bac, I get told first hand and very regularly about some of the difficulties being faced by our young people. The weight of concerns being raised set alarm bells ringing for us as a committee. We therefore wanted to undertake this inquiry and hear directly from those on the front line—pupils, parents, teachers, employers and universities—about their experiences of the Welsh bac to establish how widespread the challenges being raised with us are.

The committee's report makes 10 recommendations. I don't intend to go through each of those recommendations today. I will instead outline some of the main concerns raised throughout the inquiry. The committee very much welcomes the response from the Minister, which accepts all bar one of the recommendations that we have made for the Government, with one recommendation accepted in principle. We also welcome the response from Qualifications Wales, which was very positive about the work the committee has undertaken and provides a clear commitment to evolving the Welsh bac so that it secures the best possible benefit to our young people. Our inquiry showed there are clear concerns about the Welsh baccalaureate. However, it is worth outlining that, despite initial doubts held by the committee, the evidence we gathered showed clear merit to studying the Welsh bac.

This was particularly so in terms of the breadth of skills developed for future learning, employment and life. However, the way in which the qualification is currently being delivered and publicised is having a detrimental effect on its actual and perceived value. Many of the negative views we heard also related both to a lack of understanding of the qualification’s purpose and content, and the inconsistency in its delivery across Wales.

Although we found that understanding of the Welsh bac is growing in some areas, employers and universities remain underinformed about the qualification. Centres of learning remain worryingly inconsistent in their approach to its teaching. Duplication of effort and unmanageable assessment requirements are also leaving teachers and learners understandably fatigued. For the Welsh bac's potential to be fully realised, these issues need to be addressed as a matter of priority. It is essential that the Welsh Government makes a clearer statement about its vision for the Welsh bac that is underpinned by guidance that provides detail on its expectations in relation to the qualification’s delivery. So I very much welcome the Minister’s confirmation that the Welsh Government is currently reviewing the guidance available on the Welsh bac and its delivery, and that it will be publishing clearer guidance in due course.

We also believe that Welsh Government and Qualifications Wales should work together to deliver a focused awareness-raising campaign especially aimed at business and higher education institutions. If the skills developed under the Welsh bac are better understood by those sectors, it will help secure their engagement and buy-in. We recognise the work that Qualifications Wales has already undertaken in this respect and are pleased that the Minister’s response indicated that Welsh Government are now working closely with Qualifications Wales and WJEC to develop a joint communications plan to help ensure that universities and employers understand the skills that learners develop while undertaking this qualification. 

The committee found that there is a lack of clarity about the meaning and implementation of the Welsh Government’s policy of universal adoption for the Welsh bac. While some centres of learning adopt a mandatory approach to its study, others do not. In many cases this variability has led to a sense of unfairness and to some learners moving from one institution to another simply to avoid the Welsh bac. It has also led to a perception that the requirement to take the Welsh bac might be compromising young people’s future options and, as a result, might impact on their rights. Our recommendation called on the Welsh Government, as a matter of priority, to issue strengthened and more detailed guidance on its policy for universal adoption. We believe that guidance should set out clearly the circumstances in which learners may be exempt from studying the skills challenge certificate.

We were pleased to see that the Welsh Government is developing updated guidance on the Welsh bac and that the policy of universal adoption of the Welsh bac will be included in that guidance. However, the committee hopes and expects that guidance to include the detail that we called for, and we will monitor the development of the guidance very closely. It is also essential that, in developing that guidance, a rigorous and comprehensive child rights impact assessment is undertaken.

We have heard that the introduction of the Welsh bac, along with wider education reforms in recent years, has led to timetables being stretched. As a consequence, options and choices for learners are perceived to have narrowed. While it cannot be denied that the introduction of the skills challenge certificate and wider education reforms leave less capacity in the timetable for other learning, if designed and implemented effectively, we believe the Welsh bac has the potential to widen learners' skills and experiences.

Appropriate levels of training, development and resources for those charged with delivery of the Welsh bac was also a clear concern for many of those who gave evidence. Such concerns are not limited to this particular qualification and the committee has heard similar views in relation to other education reforms. We believe that the Welsh Government can help improve the delivery of the Welsh bac by ensuring that initial teacher education and continuing professional development are fit for purpose for its delivery. Again, we very much welcome that the Welsh Government has accepted our recommendations in this respect.

The education sector is facing a period of reform on an unprecedented scale. With so much change on the horizon, it is essential that we all work together to help ensure that our learners receive the quality education that they deserve. As a committee, we will be monitoring that reform agenda closely, and the teaching of the Welsh bac going forward will play a big part in that.

The committee is positive about the Welsh baccalaureate qualification, and if the changes outlined in our report are delivered, we believe that the future of the Welsh bac, and its learners, is bright. Thank you very much. 

Thank you for, Lynne, for chairing what I thought was one of the most enjoyable inquiries we've had with the Children, Young People and Education Committee—in the time I've been there, anyway—not least because it gave us the chance to collect evidence directly from young people with experience, past and present, of course the bac has been around for a while in different versions, and its component parts as well. 

Members, of course, will know that on the basis of the evidence presented to the committee, the Welsh Conservatives have announced their policy of dropping the bac, but the report, of course, itself does not recommend that. On the basis that the Government will be in power for a year or two yet, I still expect them to take action—urgent action in some cases—on the back of the committee's live recommendations.

Every other element of the qualification should surely already be mainstreamed into the existing curriculum and qualifications by now, but I did have great hopes, actually, with the skills challenge certificate in its most recent iteration, particularly the community challenge side of this. The skills challenge aims to develop literacy, numeracy and digital skills, but also critical thinking, problem solving, planning and organisation skills, creativity and innovation, and personal effectiveness. And actually, who's not going to want that for our young people? I'd say these skills are essential for personal empowerment, resilient communities, effective leadership in work and public life, and any hope for the Welsh economy as well, if I can add that. But they're also pretty much the same aims as for the new curriculum and that's why we as Welsh Conservatives don't think we need both. And I draw Members' attention in particular to recommendation 10, which says, in essence, learn from the mistakes of the bac and get the new curriculum right. 

A quick look at the recommendations gives a flavour of the ongoing problems—we've heard some from Lynne already: the need for a statement of Welsh Government vision for the bac; guidance about expectation on delivering resources—I'm pleased to see movement on that; an awareness-raising campaign to increase understanding; clarity on whether it's compulsory; clarity on whether post-16 students are choosing to study where the bac's not compulsory; better understanding of the impact of the workload on learners' mental health and well-being; and better understanding of the effect of the bac on other options on the curriculum. This is a qualification that has been around for a while now, so that is a lot of concerns still to be raising about it. 

Only last week, I met students at Ysgol Gyfun Gymraeg Llangynwyd who really valued the skills challenge. This is a school that is wholly committed to it and the ethos, actually, of the new curriculum is already being felt and implemented throughout that school. But it wasn't a consistent experience across Wales. We took compelling evidence from learners across Wales—now, we accept that parents' attitudes may inevitably colour their children's views—but these were actually tested separately in work that we did as well. When young people were surveyed, over half of those studying the foundation level skills challenge thought it was less useful than other qualifications in preparing them for work and life. This is the purpose of the skills challenge. Two thirds of them thought it was more time consuming, even though the majority thought it was no more or less difficult than traditional study. 

The same is true of the national-level skills challenge certificate, although in this case, 70 per cent of students thought it was too time consuming. That post-16 students felt the same was enough to convince me, especially as a third of them said that they thought that it was less difficult than A-levels, despite it being more time consuming—two thirds of them thought that. And that should concern us, I think, because the bac is sold to universities as an A-level equivalent, but if it's being used by some universities as a reason to lower other entry grades, alongside other schemes offering candidates lower grades if they prioritise that particular university for their UCAS applications, we need to have a think about that, because lowering entry requirements is a bad sign for the higher education sector more generally. And citing the bac as a driver of that does actually worry me, rather than give me confidence in its robustness— 

Will you give way?

Okay, then—if you'll be generous.

I will.

Thank you very much. I'll be really quick. I'm just wondering, from the visit to Ysgol Gyfun Gymraeg Llangynwyd—and I'm visiting there shortly because I know they are really very strong behind the Welsh bac—what is it that you learnt that I might learn when I go there about what they are doing really well with it that we can transfer to other schools?

This might take a while. You've got teachers there who have actually really bought into the principle. They've done their continuous professional development in order to make sure that they're in a position to develop and deliver a bac in a way that relates to the pupils as well, and they've looked at the community in which they work to see how they can use the freedom of how to populate the bac to get this right. This is exactly what the new curriculum could look like, but, as we heard, we had evidence from students in other schools, who were basically being told what to study: 'Just do a little bit extra than what you did at post 16, add bits of work you've already done.' That is not how the bac should work.

So, if you'll bear with me, Dirprwy Lywydd, we've heard some of this: not enough time, duplicating work done in earlier years, reducing time for other studies, marking seems not commensurate with effort needed—this is the voice of pupils and students. And it's not that they don't value the skills, but it's that the process of achieving them can be inefficient, disproportionate, inconsistent and unappreciated by employers and, in some cases, further education and higher education.

I just want to finish, if I may, Dirprwy Lywydd, on the Government's ambivalence on whether the bac should be compulsory. The committee sought clarity, but perhaps you can confirm, Minister, that you agree that you cannot make this compulsory post 16. I see now that colleges are getting more money to deliver it—teachers tell me it's more expensive to deliver than A-levels—so that's good. But that leaves colleges whose students don't want to take this at something of a financial disadvantage now, doesn't it? At least for the two years where students have just embarked on a programme where they haven't chosen the bac.

I want to make this final point. If money is being used as an incentive for students to take this as an additional, rather than an alternative qualification, this may call into question the prioritisation of students' mental well-being, and, as you know, Minister, our committee's had plenty to say about that.

I think the Chair of the committee, Lynne Neagle, encapsulated perfectly the views of the committee on some of the key issues that we raised, and there was a very strong degree of specificity on the issues that we felt were pertinent to this. Therefore, I won't go back over those things but will just pick up some recommendations. But I would say, as a child of the 1980s, 'Bacc to the Future' has got to be one of the best committee reports that we've ever had. [Laughter.]

The Minister notes in her introduction to her response to the report that the content of the specification presents schools with a choice of delivery models, so a creative approach to curriculum requirements can be undertaken. That's what she says, and I think that fits very much with the approach of the new curriculum and the development of the new curriculum and how that will be implemented too, so there's a parallel there. And I think Suzy Davies touched on that in some of the things that she was saying about how it develops.

But that also raises that question—. I don't want to echo too much of what Suzy said, but to what degree do we balance the autonomy of individual schools, colleges and lecturers against the need for consistency throughout the qualification? That's a clear challenge that the different approaches can also lead to a lack of consistency in the approaches taken to the Welsh bac, and can therefore lead to the undermining of the delivery. Recommendations 8 and 10 touch on that, in that they call for—and it's been accepted by the Government—that continual evaluation of and learning about the impact of the Welsh baccalaureate on other education reforms and the wider change that is going through the curriculum at the moment. The Minister will know that I've raised with her experiences that schools have had on those wider issues. It's encouraging that the Minister has accepted both those recommendations, 8 and 10.

I had a meeting with ColegauCymru during the inquiry and afterwards to discuss some of the concerns that they may have that would be raised in the report but also more broadly. They noted recommendation 7 about the concerns about the mental health and well-being of learners. ColegauCymru also said that they're aware of learners who potentially struggle to juggle the demands of the Welsh bac, their main chosen qualifications and also resits in either English, Welsh or maths GCSE particularly. And it's a lot to take on and could have a detrimental impact on the learners' well-being as well as their ability to achieve both the advanced Welsh baccalaureate as opposed to the skills challenge certificate, and the Minister has accepted that recommendation and makes reference to the joint ministerial task and finish group, and I think this is the one that the Chair of the committee is a member of. I think it would be helpful to have a little bit more detail on precisely what will be done with regard to the Welsh bac via that committee.

And finally, ColegauCymru also raised the issue of changes to the way the Welsh bac is funded in the next academic year. They said that if FE colleges don't register learners for the qualification, they stand to lose several hundred pounds per learner, while this situation doesn't apply to schools. This is what they told me. And, ultimately, funding drives behaviour in choices, so you could end up seeing a differential between the ways FE and schools approach the Welsh bac. It wasn't directly covered by the report itself, but I think it would be helpful to have a response from the Minister on that as well.

I was on the committee at the beginning when it was decided to do this report and some of the initial scoping was thought through and picked up on what the Chair described as some of the concerns that motivated the committee to do this, but I haven't had the benefit of sitting through the evidence, which, at least for some members of the committee, seems to have mitigated at least some of the concerns expressed. However, at the same time, the Conservatives have switched their policy to clearly doing away with the Welsh bac. And I've read this report closely, for our group, but we're still considering what we want our policy on this to be going forward.

I just wonder whether one of the key challenges about this is explaining what the Welsh bac is, and Hefin referred to the beginning of the title, 'Bacc to the Future', which I was going to compliment the committee on, but it's then the bit that comes after that, 'The status of the Welsh Baccalaureate qualification', and I think that implies at least a degree of uncertainty as to what it is, and I'm not sure as to the degree to which this report clears this up, although I think there have been one or two helpful statements by the Minister in response.

I thought it was a good report in general, but there was just one bit where, at least, to me, on my reading, it fell short—I thought one area was just describing the context of the Welsh bac, I don't think it clearly set out the difference between the foundation and the national level. It refers to the difference of the grading of the SCC, but not the need to have the five GCSEs on the appropriate criteria at C level plus for the national. But then for the foundation level, it's only getting the GCSEs at all, so G—[Inaudible.] Whereas you look at what then is called the English baccalaureate and I think that gives us a challenge still further of explaining the Welsh baccalaureate, and the fact that they set that as a five GCSEs at C or above or now five or above in England, and that has to include English and maths and is a little more specific in terms of, at least, the other three—I worry that that gives the impression to some, perhaps, who don't look at it in quite the level of detail that we're able to debate today, that the Welsh baccalaureate may not be as high a standard as the English baccalaureate because we have this lower foundation level that only requires the level G rather than the C or equivalent.

I also think that we aren't successful in explaining or marketing the SCC—skills challenge certificate—component, and, at least in principle, this strikes me as a good idea. I think when people look at the Welsh baccalaureate, and even in some of our conversations today, when we say, 'the bac' or 'the Welsh bac', actually, that's a multiple of things, and part of it's an umbrella that's describing a minimal level of other qualifications, and then you have this SCC that is unique to the Welsh bac, and I think the 50 per cent extended project and what that's trying to do in allowing the student a greater range of options of what they do in that, and something that's a really substantive and extended project to develop their skills, in principle strikes me as something that could work well. And I also think it's something that learners can talk to about in interviews with universities and use to their benefit in that personal statement. But I don't think it's sufficiently well understood by universities and employers and, to a degree, parents, that that SCC is something additional we're doing in Wales that's potentially a real thing they can sell, and it's not clear how that relates to the umbrella that then gives the Welsh bac that that's within, particularly when people, at least to a degree, have a perception of what the English bac is or isn't as well. And I think that's a real challenge for us to sell and explain that. And some of the areas that Suzy highlighted in terms of what learners are saying about it I think adds to that difficulty. I'm not quite ready to say, 'This is wrong', but I really do have concerns about it.

On one area, I think the Minister's response is really helpful when she says that

'The Welsh Baccalaureate is not a statutory subject in the national curriculum, and is therefore not compulsory for all pupils', irrespective of what guidance she may be revising or putting out there. That is on the record—a very clear statement.

The Minister will recall one particular constituency case that I had and in which she and her senior team were really very helpful, and it was a learner doing A-levels, applying to Cambridge, already doing four A-levels, trying to do sixth term examination paper levels for Cambridge as well, and was really struggling to fit in the Welsh bac—I mean the advanced SCC element—and his school was telling him, 'Well, actually, this is compulsory, or at least this is required, and this is because of what Welsh Government is saying.' And it wasn't easy for him to agree that at a school level, and thanks to the Minister's intervention, we had a successful outcome for that particular individual who is now at Cambridge, and congratulations to him.

But I think we have a more helpful statement here, but I just wish we could do better at selling this skills certificate and that component of it. And I worry that the A to G possibility of getting the Welsh bac but not the English bac gives the perception to some people that people who do get the national or the advanced level unfairly suffer, by comparison, if people have a perception that the Welsh bac may be easier or not at the quality of qualification as the English one is, and that English bac itself is pretty much the same performance indicator that the Minister's just decided she is no longer going to hold schools to account for.

Reading the report and the Government's responses, you could be forgiven for thinking the problem the Government faces with the Welsh bac is that colleges don't properly understand what it is. However, looking at some of the information in the full report, it's clear that the actual problem the Welsh Government faces is that universities and educational professionals do understand the Welsh bac but don't like it very much.

Durham University examined the Welsh bac closely in 2016 after it had been changed a year earlier, and concluded it was not equivalent to an A-level and that they would not consider it as part of a potential student's application. Where colleges are prepared to accept it, they often nuance that by saying that they would not accept it as a qualification for entry on to the higher-end courses such as medicine.

Even the chief executive of Qualifications Wales, Philip Blaker, says that three A-levels alongside the SCC element of the Welsh bac is probably the best solution for learners, but that effectively renders much of the bac pointless. Most universities—[Interruption.] No. I don't have much time, Hefin.

Most universities make offers based on three A-levels, and those courses that require more are likely to be the high-end ones that colleges have said they won't accept the Welsh bac for. So, Welsh bac supporters can say until they're blue in the face that the qualification is equivalent to an A-level, but the fact is that most universities seem to disagree. And they disagree not because of a lack of understanding of it, but because they do understand it.

Worryingly, research from Cardiff University shows that students who have the Welsh bac often perform less well at university than other students, and that makes me wonder if the qualification—[Interruption.] If you doubt it, ask Cardiff University. It makes me wonder if the qualification gives students an easier ride than an A-level and is leaving them underprepared for the rigours of undergraduate courses. [Interruption.] It would certainly be one of the explanations behind university admissions—[Interruption.]—officers being reluctant to treat it as a full A-level equivalent. I'm not giving way, I'm sorry. So, it's not surprising that we are finding the Welsh bac the hard sell to students when all the evidence is that it is counterproductive. To be able to open all the doors of learners from England, a Welsh pupil would have to study three A-levels and the Welsh bac. [Interruption.] Do I have to get any louder?

Would you like to take an intervention to save you getting louder?

And they're not get onto the top courses. It is clear that, at the moment, it will also always be better for a learner to do an A-level instead of the Welsh bac. [Interruption.] Shut up, Huw.

No, no. I'm sorry. You must withdraw that. It is a debate. [Interruption.] No, I'm sorry, you either withdraw that or consider it—

[Inaudible.]—shouting and heckling at me since the moment I opened my mouth.

Yes, and that's part of a debate. I'm surprised you wouldn't have—[Interruption.] I will not have—

I couldn't even hear myself think.

I'm sorry, I will not have you shout across the Chamber what you've just shouted. Just reflect on it and carry on.

Well, I'm sorry that I had to tell Huw to shut up.

I'm not having that, I'm sorry. Either you just carry on with the rest of your speech and ignore the side noises, or you can sit down and we'll move on.

Fine, I will do. I'll ignore them.

The report itself makes some valid proposals as far as selling the Welsh bac is concerned, but it would appear to be trying to sell a product for which there is no demand. The Confederation of British Industry and the Federation of Small Businesses were asked for an input but refused to do so, as did Universities Wales. All of these organisations have a huge interest in the qualification of young people, and the deliberate disengagement from the discussion speaks volumes about their opinion of the Welsh bac.

I would therefore be very concerned if I thought that steps had been taken to make the Welsh bac a compulsory part of our young people's education. All the available evidence shows that there are serious problems with the qualification that are nothing to do with a lack of awareness of it, but, in fact, the contrary. That's not to say that it couldn't be a useful qualification in the future, especially if the Government went to Russell Group universities and asked for their help in putting it together, but it isn't there yet, and as such should not be sold to pupils as an equivalent to an A-level and certainly not forced upon them. We should be in the business of achieving the best for our learners so that as many doors open for them as possible. Pushing the Welsh bac on them or exaggerating its merits just to increase the uptake of it seems to be aimed at pursuing a different agenda than that of giving our learners the best future we can. It's effectively selling them a pig in a poke. Having said that, I do think that credit should be given to the Minister for accepting and taking up the recommendations of the committee. Thank you.

Well done, Michelle, for actually continuing.

Thank you.

Participating in this inquiry into the revised Welsh baccalaureate qualification has certainly been eye-opening for me, and some of the findings of the report were very fundamental. A number of examples of poor perceptions of the Welsh bac have been highlighted, for example 66 per cent believing that the Welsh bac is not valuable to future careers; understanding of the qualification by universities decreasing beyond the Welsh border; and there is major variability in the delivery of the qualification at schools and colleges, with some treating it as a filler, and there being a complete lack of consistency in timetabling across Wales.

It will come as no surprise, therefore, that we as a committee did note that a key issue is a lack of understanding of the qualification amongst parents, employers and educational professionals. Four years down the line, the Welsh Government still needs to explain in simpler terms exactly what the qualification is.

Will you take an intervention?

No, I'm sorry, Hefin. Oh, go on, I'll take an intervention—go on. [Laughter.]

I'm not looking to attack anybody at all. I just feel that the tenor of the debate is becoming wholly negative about the Welsh bac, when, in fact, the evidence we took was more nuanced than that. I think what Michelle said was wholly on the side of negativity, whereas, in fact, we saw a lot more positive views as well.

Okay. Well, with all due respect, I've taken the intervention and so it's not about what Michelle has said, it's what I'm saying. And with all due respect, this is what I found taking evidence. We met pupils, we met teachers, we met headteachers, we met parents—we met everybody, and, to be honest, the feedback really surprised me, because I thought it was going to be a lot more positive than it, in fact, turn out to be.

So, four years down the line, the Welsh Government do need to explain in simpler terms what the—I've said all of that [Laughter.]. However, this far in, it must be asked whether it is reasonable to be throwing more money at a qualification that is—and to be fair, it has to be said—strongly disliked by many. Indeed, despite the campaign, I doubt whether there will ever be enough understanding and consistency to make the Welsh bac a success. There's a lot of work to be done here if it continues. For example, you have accepted recommendation 1 and the need for a clearer statement to be underpinned by guidance that details expectations in relation to consistency of delivery, and accepted recommendation 5, but yet you still expect headteachers to use their professional judgment to determine the right learning programme for their learners. 

Clearly, there could continue to be a lack of consistency and clarity, especially with regard to universal adoption.

Will the Member give way?

Oh, go on then.

Could I just clarify that, when she's making generally negative conclusions around the Welsh bac, is she referring specifically to the skills challenge certificate, or is she referring to the umbrella, because all these other qualifications for the umbrella are being studied anyhow, so in what sense would you want to get rid of them?

When we interviewed the pupils themselves, some hadn't taken it because they'd been off-put by their friends who said the skills challenge certificate was one of the main considerations why they either didn't want to take the bac or found it challenging and difficult when they did. That was the very point that they made, but there are many other reasons with the Welsh bac: its recognition, teachers that weren't trained in delivering the Welsh bac—and teachers actually said to us during workshops that they would like to see the back of it. So, there was some pretty strong evidence that came from that. So, it's a multitude of reasons—it's not just one.

There is no reason why it cannot be achieved through the use of surveys, so I do wonder whether the Welsh Government’s hesitation is an indication as to some nervousness as to what the results will probably show.

In addition to evidence of dislike of the qualification by pupils, our work has seen that it's having an impact on teachers. Training seems to be inadequate; some teachers lack confidence in delivering it. Whilst you have accepted recommendation 9, it is interesting to note your observation that the skills and ped—I can't say this word, but pedag—[Assembly Members: 'Pedagogy.']—yes, that one, that's the one; I've heard Kirsty Williams saying it before [Laughter.]—of teaching the new curriculum are closely aligned and that they can be transferred to teaching the Welsh bac qualification. What this means is that we have teachers in secondary schools across Wales now worried about the delivery of the Welsh bac and the new curriculum. This is now being seen as yet another pressure on our teachers.

I really do think it is time to consider reducing the pressure, and for the Welsh Government to seriously consider the calls previously made by my colleague Suzy Davies AM to have a look again at the Welsh baccalaureate to see whether it really is suitable, going forward, for our Welsh students. Thank you.   

Can I now call on the Minister for Education, Kirsty Williams?

Thank you very much, Deputy Presiding Officer, and thank you for the opportunity to discuss the committee's report on the status of the Welsh baccalaureate. I was pleased that the evidence gathered by the committee showed clear merit in young people studying the Welsh bac. I was glad as the Minister for Education in Wales, and, like Lynne, I'm glad as a parent who has two children currently studying two different levels of the bac as we speak.

It is a wide-ranging framework qualification that embraces the teaching of fundamental skills, and it enables pupils to become more independent, more critical in their thinking and more flexible in the way they work. It also provides learners with the opportunity to develop their knowledge and understanding of society, the community in which they live and an awareness of global issues, events and perspectives, helping them to become ethical, informed citizens of Wales and the world. Indeed, the Welsh baccalaureate provides the foundations for our learners to develop the wider skills and knowledge that align perfectly with the four purposes of the new curriculum and gives them, actually, a certificate and an accreditation for those skills.

Let me be clear: my aim is for all learners to be able to benefit from the Welsh bac and to gain the skills challenge certificate. I am, of course, aware of the differing opinions here in the Chamber about the values and the benefits of the Welsh bac, and, in its relatively short lifetime, it has been the subject of numerous reviews and changes. Let's be clear: the current Welsh bac and skills challenge certificate are still young and will continue to develop over time. At this point, there have only been two sets of results since its implementation in September 2015, although I have to say those two sets of results have been hugely encouraging.

But I appreciate that there are still aspects of delivery that can be done better. The way in which we communicate the value and the benefits can be made clearer, the universities' understanding of the qualification can be improved, and we must learn lessons from implementing the Welsh bac as we move forward to deliver the curriculum for Wales 2022.

The committee's report reinforced my view of these challenges. Therefore, I was very happy to accept the recommendations either in full or in principle. Work is already being taken forward to improve the guidance available, which will outline my vision for the future of the Welsh bac as well as the Government's policy on universal adoption, and that will be ready in the autumn. Qualifications Wales, the WJEC and us as a Government are working together to improve awareness of the Welsh bac through a joint communications plan, ensuring that clear messages are sent out on both the purpose but also the benefits of learners undertaking the bac.

Now, one of the questions that I'm often asked is whether universities will accept the skills challenge certificate. The fact of the matter is that the skills challenge certificate carries the same UCAS tariff points and is equivalent to any other A-level. More and more universities across the United Kingdom are recognising the skills challenge certificate in their offers, including 15 of the Russell Group universities. And, what's more, universities tell me and our seven network co-ordinators that the advanced bac gives Welsh students a competitive advantage in being able to demonstrate clear, independent research and academic skills, which actually lead them to be excellent undergraduates.

I've already made it clear in this debate that I don't share the wholly negative view that's been expressed by some in the Chamber, but, nonetheless, it was the case that universities did seem reluctant to give evidence to committee and express those opinions. Why would that be the case? If the picture is so good, why have they been so reluctant to speak to us?

As I often say in this Chamber, universities are autonomous institutions, and that is a matter for them, and not a matter for me. But, as I said, the Welsh bac gives students a competitive advantage in being able to clearly demonstrate these skills, and I know that this point will be reinforced at the joint Seren-Oxford event that will be held at the Norwegian church this evening.

Now, just today, Deputy Presiding Officer, I have been provided with a list of selected offers from universities that the WJEC has received that included the skills challenge certificate. There are over 650 courses here, whether that's medicine at Cardiff, physics at Exeter, computer science at Edinburgh, law at Birmingham, and, just to refute the points that Michelle Brown made, which said that it is not accepted in offers for medicine, within that list there are students holding offers that include their skills challenge certificate to read medicine at Exeter, at Cardiff, at Leicester, at Manchester, at Nottingham and at Plymouth. Now, I am more than happy for my officials to brief Michelle Brown, and perhaps, when she is considering the way in which she spoke to our colleague Huw Irranca-Davies, she could reflect on her comments about the nature of the qualifications and the efforts that teachers and students have put into achieving them.

Now, moving forward, the Welsh Government, Qualifications Wales and the WJEC will continue to work with UCAS and other stakeholders to ensure that information about how universities treat the bac in their offers is systematically collated and updated, and, crucially, is made available to learners, to their parents, to their guardians, and to schools and colleges. It's important to note that the committee's review of the Welsh bac started only a few months after Qualifications Wales published its own review of the skills challenge certificate in April 2018. Now, one of the main findings of the independent review was that the design of the certificate is more complex than it needs to be. Consequently, Qualifications Wales has established a design group and practitioner group to take forward the recommendations of the review, including the manageability of the qualification and the potential impact on learners' mental health and well-being.

We will also continue to work with Qualifications Wales, the WJEC, regional consortia for schools and our FE colleges whilst the work to revise the certificate moves forward, ensuring that we are providing the support for any emerging resources, training or implications that could arise from any further changes.

Would you take a—? Thank you very much for that. I'm just wondering if you can tell me whether the work of that group—and it was good to hear that it's looking at simplifying this in some way—is taking into account the new curriculum and the qualifications for that in due course, and what additional the skills challenge certificate will be bringing to students, say 10 years from now?

What's really important, Deputy Presiding Officer, is to recognise the group is a group of the independent organisation that is Qualifications Wales, and the Member will be more than aware that Qualifications Wales will will start its national conversation with regard to the impact of the new curriculum on qualifications in September. 

Can I take this opportunity to thank members of the committee for the report? We must now allow time for the recommendations to be implemented, and move forward with confidence that the bac works for learners, it works for employers, colleges and universities, and not just here in Wales but across the UK and internationally.

Thank you. Can I now call on Lynne Neagle to reply to the debate?

Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. If I can just start by just saying that I made a joke or light-hearted comment in my initial speech about the grief that I get at home from my son on the Welsh bac, which—I'm not sure the joke actually landed terribly well in the Chamber. [Laughter.] But that was very much how I approached the inquiry, from a position actually of being very concerned about the Welsh bac and feeling quite negative about it as a parent. But I do have to say that the evidence we took did not bear that out, really.

One of the most powerful things for me was when we did go out to the schools and talked to the young people directly. I went to Crickhowell High—other Members went to other places—and what I was very struck with at Crickhowell High was that none of those young people said that they wanted the bac to be scrapped, they all had helpful and meaningful things to say—and I will acknowledge that obviously there were different views elsewhere, but I think that what was clear in Crickhowell High was that there is excellent leadership of the Welsh bac in Crickhowell High. There is a dedicated member of staff who is clearly passionately enthusiastic about the qualification and you could see the benefits that that brought for the pupils. But the problem is that we don't have that everywhere. And that is what the report is about—trying to deliver some consistency. So, I think that is a really key message of the report. We accept that there is benefit to this qualification but there is more work that needs to be done in how that is effectively delivered across Wales and I'm pleased that the Government has accepted the recommendations in the way that the Minister has. 

If I can just pick up on some individual contributions, Suzy Davies talked about hearing directly from the young people and, indeed, as she said, there were varied views, and I hope that in the report that we've produced we've tried to pick up on recommendations that address the various concerns that were raised by young people around consistency, around things like the compulsory nature of the Welsh baccalaureate. Hefin David, when you spoke you talked about the tension that exists between giving that freedom to education professionals and ensuring that there is consistent delivery. That is undoubtedly a challenge across the whole curriculum going forward, but I hope that the recommendations we have made around improving ITE, continuing professional development in relation to the Welsh bac, and generally the guidance, setting out more clearly what is expected, will help in delivering that. 

Can I thank Mark Reckless for his very thoughtful contribution to this debate? As you say, you started out with the committee when we launched this inquiry. We didn't actually specifically take evidence on the direct comparator with England, so I won't specifically comment on that, but I would thank you for your recognition about the skills challenge certificate, because that was a theme that came out in the evidence of the young people that I spoke to, that they felt it was a useful thing to undertake and also felt that universities were quite attracted by that mode of study, really, as a more independent way of learning.

I do accept, of course, that there is more that needs to be done in terms of explaining the qualification. It wasn't our role really as a committee to try and set that out in detail in the report; we were focused on trying to make recommendations to improve the implementation, and, as you know, we made key recommendations about improving the understanding of everyone, really—parents, pupils and professionals involved in delivering the qualification, but also, very importantly, universities and businesses. And I thank you as well for highlighting the fact that the Minister has clarified, again, that the Welsh bac is not compulsory at post-16. That is very helpful, because as a committee, we felt very clearly that the individual best interests of the young person should be paramount. 

If I can turn now to Michelle Brown's contribution—[Interruption.] Well, yes. It was quite negative, really, and I have to say—and I repeat—that I came to this inquiry feeling very sceptical—. It would be nice if you listened, Michelle, to the response, having spoken in the debate. Having come to the inquiry feeling very negative about the Welsh bac, the evidence that we took did not bear that out, and this is work in progress. I also didn't recognise what Michelle Brown said about there being no demand for the qualification, because that is clear from talking to young people, some of whom told us that they only got into universities because they had the Welsh bac, because they perhaps weren't as well suited to doing three A-levels, so they were doing two A-levels and the Welsh bac. So I think that we need to build on the positives in the inquiry. 

Janet, again, you were very concerned about the Welsh baccalaureate and, of course, both Welsh Conservative Members signed up to this report when we published the report, and it was an evidence-based report, so from that point of view, I am a little bit disappointed, really, that you've come to the conclusion that you have, having signed up. 

Would you take an answer to that?

By all means.

I hope I explained that in my opening remarks, which is that the Government's going to be in place for another two years or so, and of course we expect to see the Government act on those recommendations, but that doesn't mean to say that they're going to succeed. 

Of course, and we will have to monitor closely the implementation of the recommendations, but it was clearly the view of the committee that there is value in this qualification, but just that we want to see it being improved. 

I just wanted to pick up on one specific point that Janet Finch-Saunders made about relieving the pressure on teachers. Undoubtedly, workload is a continuing concern for teachers but, again, I think the pressure on teachers comes from how the bac is actually implemented in a school. In a school where you've got good leadership of the Welsh bac, where the staff are being given the appropriate amount of time to deliver it—. The pressure comes when schools aren't implementing it properly, when it's an add-on, something that has been shoved in between things. So, again, I hope that our recommendations about ensuring consistent implementation on this will be helpful. 

Can I thank the Minister for her further response today? It was helpful to have the information about the universities set out in the Chamber. As has already been highlighted, we did, despite our very best efforts, find it difficult to take formal oral evidence from the universities because they weren't keen to come in and give that formal oral evidence, which would have been very useful. And it's great to see that things are moving in the right direction. Of course, this is work in progress, really, and that was what the report also recommended: that we need to do more to ensure that all our universities have a really good understanding of the Welsh bac and recognise it fully. 

I'll just conclude by thanking the rest of the committee and saying that, as with all our inquiries, we will be doing our utmost to follow up on our recommendations and to ensure that they are delivered at pace. Diolch yn fawr. 

Thank you. The proposal is to note the committee's report. Does any Member object? No. Therefore, in accordance with Standing Order 12.36, the motion is agreed. 

Motion agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

We now move on to the Welsh Conservative debate on sight loss—

Can I raise a point of order?

A point of order under what Standing Order?

Standing Order 13.10.

Go on then. 

Under Standing Order 13.10, 

'A Member must comply with any directions given by the Presiding Officer',  and you required Michelle Brown to withdraw a statement she made, and she didn't do that. 

Well, she did. 

But on a wider issue, the concerns on this side of the Chamber were to do with the fact that the things that she was saying didn't reflect what was in the report, and when Lynne Neagle, as Chair of the committee, was making the statement, Michelle Brown wasn't listening to what Lynne Neagle was saying. So, with the greatest respect, there's no wonder that erroneous statements are going to be made in the Chamber. 

I take the point of order. You've raised it, it's on the record. Can I just say that Members have a right in a debate to use that time allocated to them to help further that debate? It's entirely up to them how they do it. I did ask for an apology. That apology was there. It might not have been as clear in the way—but it was there. And certainly, there are a lot of people who do several other things in this Chamber other than actually pay total attention. So, I think if I was to start to say that people should be listening totally, I think quite a few of you would be outwith any of the Standing Orders. The points you've made are on the record.