Item 5 on the agenda this afternoon is the statement by the Minister for Economy and Transport on concessionary travel, and I call on the Minister for Economy and Transport, Ken Skates.

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd, and thank you for this opportunity to update Members about our plans for concessionary bus travel in Wales. Now, as Members will know, I issued a written statement before the summer recess providing an update on our plans for bus reform in Wales and a transport-related Bill. The proposed legislation contains several elements, all of which are being created to improve bus travel in Wales. It will put in place provisions that will provide a suite of tools for local authorities to consider using when planning and delivering bus services, including improved partnership working arrangements, franchising and local authority-run bus services.

It will put in place new information management and sharing arrangements so that information to the public will be more accessible and reliable, and local authorities will be in a better position to make arrangements to address changes in service provision. It will also amend the eligibility age for the mandatory and discretionary concessionary fares schemes, which I would like to take the opportunity to talk about to you in more detail today.

The mandatory concessionary fares scheme has been a huge success. It was introduced in 2002, when Wales became the first country in the UK to introduce free bus travel for retired people here in the United Kingdom, and we remain committed to the principles that have underpinned the scheme in Wales for all of that time, providing older people and disabled people, which includes some of the most seriously-injured service veterans and service personnel, universal access to free bus travel anywhere in Wales on local scheduled bus services.

The number of mandatory concessionary passengers has increased since the introduction of the scheme in 2002. Currently, pass holders represent around 47 per cent of total bus journeys, and there are nearly three quarters of a million passes in circulation.

The Llywydd took the Chair.

Inevitably, the success of the scheme has resulted in the costs of the scheme rising. With changes to our population demographic since the introduction of the scheme, our real challenge now is to make sure that the scheme is sustainable and fit for purpose for the future. Projections indicate that the number of people eligible for free travel under the current scheme will be 880,000 by 2021 and over a million by 2030. This rise potentially puts the viability of the scheme at risk in future.

The age profile of our population is rising. Those over 60 are increasingly active, both physically and economically. That is why we've been looking at options for managing rising costs without affecting the eligibility of those persons currently entitled to a concessionary fare pass, in a way that ensures a fair scheme that achieves our policy intentions in the long term. We remain committed to retaining entitlement for free travel at any time and we recognise its importance to the independence of pass holders, but we must also give consideration to making changes to the eligibility criteria for new applicants to keep the scheme sustainable.

Therefore, we are proposing to gradually increase the age of entitlement to a concessionary pass over a number of years so as to eventually align it with the state pension age. Incremental increases in the age of entitlement will mean that there will not be a sudden change. Those persons approaching 60 when the changes come into effect who expect to receive their pass at 60 will not have to wait until they reach the state pension age to get one. With a gradual increase in the age of eligibility, those people will receive a pass before attaining the state pension age. We are also proposing to make similar amendments to eligibility for discretionary concessionary schemes operated by local authorities. In making these amendments to the mandatory scheme, we'll be able to continue to offer a scheme that is more generous than in England, where pass holders can catch any bus at any time in Wales with no charge.

Now, I appreciate that there will be concerns about these proposals, including what they mean for current pass holders. However, I would like to make it absolutely clear that any person who holds a concessionary pass at the time the changes to the law are made will not lose their entitlement to that pass in any circumstances.

The Bill also makes changes to the residency requirements for the schemes in Wales. Eligibility will be restricted to an older or disabled person whose sole or principal residence is in the authority’s area. Currently, those aged 60 and over are entitled to apply for a permit if they have a residence in a Welsh local authority area. Once the new changes come into effect, only those people whose sole or principal residence is in Wales will be eligible for a permit. Again, any person who currently holds a permit whose sole or principal residence is not in Wales will retain their pass until it expires. The changes brought about by this piece of legislation will not come into force before April 2022. Therefore, anyone who reaches the age of 60 before this date will not be affected by these changes.

Research undertaken for Welsh Government showed that free travel in and of itself is not sufficient for travellers to make a modal shift from the car to public transport. Amongst other things, improved bus reliability, better integration and accessible information are also key factors that can help us achieve this shift. Our wider suite of bus reform measures, both legislative and non-legislative, and our multi-modal metro ambitions are aimed at addressing these concerns. So, whilst there is a temptation to look at the concessionary fares scheme for older and disabled persons in isolation, it is absolutely vital to consider it in a much wider context of securing the long-term viability of bus services in Wales.

I would like turn to the separate but related subject of the concessionary travel cards renewal programme, which began on 11 September, and which Transport for Wales is undertaking on behalf of the 22 local authorities in Wales. Since the launch of the renewal programme, Transport for Wales has received now over 210,000 online applications, which is about 95 per cent of all applications received to date. Due to the huge surge in demand on the first couple of days, the website was taken offline and, during this time, significantly more capacity was built and extensive capacity testing took place, in partnership with Age Cymru and the Older People’s Commissioner for Wales. Paper applications were available to download from the Transport for Wales website, by post on request via the helpline, and also, of course, available via local authorities.

Local authorities have been involved at all stages of the design and build over the past nine months. Regular bulletins have been circulated to local authorities and partners to keep them updated throughout the programme to provide as much as support as possible. Transport for Wales has been responding to queries from thousands of members of the public, the Welsh media and elected colleagues to reassure them that there’s plenty of time to apply and the current bus passes are valid until 31 December this year. I've been pleased with the level of engagement with Assembly Members, showing openness and transparency and a connected approach, which I very much welcome.

The programme has been widely shared on social media, which has generated a high volume of applications and queries from applicants and those applying on people’s behalf. The Transport for Wales team is committed to continuing to support local authorities and colleagues, and will attend relevant community events and locations as the programme continues through this autumn. I'd urge colleagues to get in touch with Transport for Wales if there are local events and gatherings taking place to allow them to have an opportunity to further promote the changes across communities, on a face-to-face basis.

I thank the Minister for his statement this afternoon on two aspects with regard to concessionary travel. I wonder, Minister, if you can say a bit more about how you have considered some of the concerns that have been expressed to avoid the unintended consequences for pass holders such as carers and older people with health issues or disabilities. I'd also be grateful for further details of how you have considered the potential negative impacts on the viability of bus services if it results in lower bus use and the potential impact on the environment if we see a modal shift of people over 60 who then may go back to driving cars rather than using public transport. I notice this is something that the WLGA and others have pointed out as a potential consequence, so if you could say a little bit more about the research that you referred to in your statement that suggests that this won't be the case.

I'm pleased to hear that the issues about the concessionary fares website have been resolved. It's my understanding that there would be comprehensive support available through social services and libraries, alongside online applications. Now, as I understand it, many councils did not receive paper copies of the application forms for distribution to their libraries and community hubs until the week commencing 23 September, or even later in some cases. I wonder have you any information on why that was the case. It would be useful to know what the Welsh Government and Transport for Wales are doing to advertise the change. Will Transport for Wales be contacting people directly when they have not received an application and they know that people are eligible through their own database and information? As a result of the website failure, has any consideration been given to extending the period by which people can apply and, in any case, will there be a grace period after 1 January? If so, for how long will that grace period last?

I'd also like to ask you, Minister, to state how you are looking to ensure that the proposals don't exacerbate the cross-border difficulties experienced by those concessionary pass holders who have specific travel requirements that require cross-border travel. This is, of course, a particular concern for constituencies on borders—like myself and like yourself. I'm particularly thinking of healthcare, for example. Many of my constituents go across the border to access healthcare, into England. Finally, and as I said previously, young people tend to have the lowest wages, the highest car insurance and travel costs are a significant barrier to get to jobs and training opportunities. Will the Welsh Government consider at some point the idea of introducing a scheme, such as the one I've promoted myself in the past, to provide the same travel concessions to young people aged between 16 and 24?

Can I thank Russell George for his very constructive contribution, and his questions? I'll take each one in turn, as briefly as I possibly can, Llywydd. First of all, with regard to the consultations that have taken place—and there have been multiple consultations over the past few years—we've attempted to address all of the concerns that individuals and representative organisations of passengers have come forward with. Russell George raises the important point about certain individuals with protected characteristics or carers requiring additional support. I would imagine that, under the discretionary scheme, the same application process and the same considerations would be taken forward, so people should not be left in a position where they're not able to assist the people that they care for, or where they are deprived of the opportunity to travel on local bus services. The criteria should remain the same; it's the eligibility age that's going to be changing.

In terms of concerns that are being expressed regarding the consequences of raising the age of eligibility, well, it is true that price is a major incentive in getting people out of their cars and onto buses. We found that clearly from the pilot scheme that took place on the TrawsCymru network. However, it's just part of the mix. My vision for bus services in Wales, which will only come about as a result of prioritising resources in the right way, and also carrying out the reforms that are necessary to local bus services, is to develop better infrastructure, to ensure that bus journeys are reliable and shorter than journeys by private car, and secondly, to ensure that there is a fair fare scheme in place for anybody and everybody who doesn’t have either a reduced ticket—i.e. young people—or people who benefit under the concessionary fare regime. My view is that a flat, fair fare of a minimal amount, for example £1 per journey anytime anywhere across Wales, would incentivise people sufficiently to leave their cars at home, if they know that they're going to get from A to B quicker than they would in a car.

So, prioritising resource to improve the infrastructure whilst also ensuring that you have a very transparent and affordable way to travel will lead to that modal shift. But it will also require the prioritising of resource for bus services, and that's why we're taking responsible action now concerning the eligibility of the concessionary fares scheme. Because if we don't, it will only go up. It will only rise, quite significantly, and that in turn would deprive us of the opportunity to introduce those much lower affordable flat fares once reforms have gone through. It would deprive us of the opportunity to introduce dedicated bus lanes and other infrastructure that makes it more attractive for people to travel by bus. So, what we are doing is the responsible thing within a much broader vision to how we're going to get more people out of cars and onto buses across Wales.

The application process for the renewal of the cards has been something that we've worked very closely with local authorities over. Indeed, Transport for Wales has taken on the responsibility from all 22 local authorities, recognising that councils simply don't have the capacity and resource to undertake such a huge effort. I and Councillor Andrew Morgan recently wrote to every local authority reminding them of their duties and responsibilities to assist people in applying for the concessionary fare passes, and that includes ensuring that they have readily available paper forms and application forms that individuals are able to use, and that they have support within, for example, libraries. Now, I recognise that some local authorities have been less efficient in providing information and support and disseminating information to libraries and other services than others, but I hope that between the action that I've taken and Councillor Andrew Morgan has taken, we will see all councils step up to the plate and offer the support that's needed to people in applying for these passes.  

Rhun ap—

Sorry. I'm pleased to—. I apologise—just three more questions that the Member raised.

In terms of a grace period, I can tell Members today that it is my intention to have a short grace period of up to a month. I’m confident that, based on 210,000 applications already being made, we will see the vast majority of applications processed by the end of November. In terms of cross-border services, yes, I’m acutely aware of the need to ensure that we have a system in place that enables people to cross to and from Wales and England. The key thing is that we need the English system to be more generous, and it’s something that I have raised in the past with the Secretary of State. It’s something that I will raise again in the coming months. And in terms of benefits and entitlements for younger people, I’m pleased that we’ve been able to extend entitlements for younger people from the original MyTravelPass scheme. But, as I said earlier, the broader vision for bus services in Wales would see fairer, more affordable fares, and flat rates if possible, introduced across the country that would enable younger people to travel by bus and not have to choose the car in any community.

The concessionary pass, of course, is something that everyone appreciates and treasures. People look forward, I think, to reaching 60 years of age—[Interruption.] There's a problem. No, it’s okay. Is it working? It should be working. We’re okay. So, I was just saying that the concessionary pass on the bus is something that people treasure, and people very much look forward to reaching 60 years of age and receiving that pass. I’m still young, but I’m already looking forward to the way that I see many people benefitting from using these passes. So, it’s not something to be taken lightly, of course, with regards to increasing the age of eligibility.

I recognise that this isn’t something that will happen in one go—it will happen over a period of time. But, despite that, there are questions that are important to ask with regard to the effect of this. We’ve heard reference to some of these already, and I’d like to have an assurance from the Minister with regard to the kinds of measurements that will be taken to try to forecast the costs that could arise as a result of raising the age of eligibility. The costs could be environmental if people choose not to use the bus and use their own cars. That’s something that has been of great benefit in having these concessionary passes, that more people have chosen to use mass transport systems. I’d like to also hear about the kinds of measures that are going to be taken of the social costs as well of people choosing not to go out from their homes. I was speaking last night, as it happens, with one person who was vulnerable—very vulnerable—who was returning to their home after a day on the bus around Anglesey, and they’d had great pleasure in doing that. So, I’d like an assurance on those particular points as well.

On the issue of providing the new passes, the difficulties with the online system did cause a great deal of concern to many of my constituents. It’s important to look forward and not back, but what kind of stress test was made with the system, considering how many people were being asked to renew their passes? We heard one Minister—the finance Minister, I believe—saying a few weeks back, ‘Oh, they have plenty of time; they have until the end of December’. That’s not how people work. I’ve come across I don’t know how many people in my office who want to sort this out today, because they’re concerned that they’re going to lose their passes, and I’ve seen the pain in their eyes. That’s why I’ve been in my office with my staff providing a service to people, making the application on their behalf, and there are scores of people who’ve been coming into my office, and it’s been great to be able to assist them.

So, I would want certainty that everything is being done to engage with people as soon as possible to ensure that they can renew their passes, and also certainty that when the final day of December nears, the work increases to ensure that people have received the new passes. Because I know about the concern in local authorities. Your figures from the statement say that 47 per cent of every bus journey is now made by people with a concessionary pass. In losing those journeys, that’s a loss of income to local government at a time when they can't afford to lose that income. So, I would like certainty that things will intensify in terms of the efforts to ensure that everyone receives their new pass as the final day of December approaches.

Can I just be clear, and thank Rhun ap Iorwerth for his questions, that local government is not making money from the concessionary fare scheme? In fact, local government is contributing towards it. The key is in ensuring that the 80-plus bus operators across Wales that currently get reimbursed for the concessionary scheme operate on business models that are sustainable for the future. And the problem that we've got right now is, because 47 per cent of journeys are related to the concessionary fare schemes, i.e. free and based on a reimbursement, there is insufficient growth in the fare box—people who are actually paying for their journeys. And that's what's leading to those tiny margins and a lack of sustainability within the market.

In turn, that's why we need to drive up the number of people who pay to use buses, and that's why we're looking at a broad vision of improving the attractiveness of travelling by bus. We're looking at fare systems that currently operate in different parts of the world, which I think are very interesting, in order to make bus travel more affordable to the individual, but to drive up patronage to such a degree so that bus services and bus companies are sustainable and raising enough from the fare box to survive.

I think Rhun ap Iorwerth is absolutely right: people treasure their bus passes and not a single person who has one now will be deprived of it by the end of the year. There still is plenty of time to apply for the concessionary fare pass, but I do accept that people do want to get that piece of work out of their lives as soon as they can and apply and get it done with. That led to, on 11 September, a huge amount of traffic to the website, and unfortunately, with the bandwidth that was applied to it, it suffered from failure. Over the following days, the bandwidth was increased substantially and further stress tests were undertaken. I'm pleased that there have been no issues since, and we've now seen around 210,000 applications on the website in a very, very short space of time—we're talking about just a small number of weeks—and that's why I'm confident that, by the end of the year, we will have been able to process all of those applications.

In terms of moving from the car to bus services and the risk of vice versa happening, people deciding not to pay for bus services and moving back into their cars, the problem that we have at the moment is that, even with free bus travel, for many people who are over 60 but are still in work, bus services are not attractive because they're not as reliable as something they would require in order to get to work on time, or because they don't serve them in the community that they live. The system is simply not operating correctly. That's why we're introducing the reforms through the buses Bill. And in time, we will be able to deliver a network that is far more integrated, where we can apply higher quality standards, where we can apply a fairer fare regime. And it's my belief that, as a result of that, with the investment in bus infrastructure and bus rapid transport and bus routes, we'll be able to entice far more people out of their cars and onto buses.

In terms of the cost of raising the eligibility, well, actually, the cost is going to be incurred if we don't raise the age of eligibility. We know at the moment that there are around about 750,000 passes in circulation. Based on the percentage increase in population over 60 between now and 2030, it would amount to, if we did nothing, an additional contribution of something in the order of £17.5 million potentially between Welsh Government and local authorities. Certainly, as a minimum, we would expect to see an increased cost of around £10.5 million, but that's also, in turn, based on the fact that only 420,000 of those 0.75 million passes are actually in active use. If everybody started using their passes more regularly, then the cost would balloon even more and the system, in turn, would become even less sustainable. And we do have finite resources. I would invite any Member in the Chamber to identify how we would secure an additional £17.5 million or more, per year, in order to maintain the scheme as it is, as people work longer and are more physically active for longer in their lives.

There is a cost to others in society if we don't make these changes. For example, we know that people aged 60 to 64 have a higher average income than people aged 35 or less. They also have lower levels of material deprivation. Now, I'm not trying to play off one group of people against another, but I do think it's important to recognise that younger people right now are struggling incredibly and, in some parts of Wales, 20 per cent of young people can't afford or can't get access to public transport even to get to a job interview. That is simply not right and the reforms that we are going to be making over the coming months will address that injustice.

As usual, Minister, your comprehensive answers to many of the questions before leaves very little room for me to bring any unique angle to the debate, but I have to say that we must all realise that the ageing population means all aspects of public service will come under increasing strain over the coming years and therefore free bus passes must be affected by these changes.

I believe the course of action outlined in your statement is a fair and sensible measure, but can I express a note of caution, which you have indicated yourself that you understand? It is imperative that the general public and, in particular, those of the older generation who will be affected by the changes are fully informed of its implementation. In particular, that those now in receipt of a bus pass will, without exception, retain their passes.

You referred in the second part of your statement to the recent problems regarding the necessity to register with Transport for Wales for existing bus pass holders. Quite apart from the inability to register for technical reasons, there was widespread concern as to whether people would lose their passes entirely, and that was expressed to me on many occasions by people coming to my office. So, would the Minister confirm to us that there will be a suitable and comprehensive exercise in informing existing pass holders and those about to join the scheme exactly what the procedures and the timeline will be?

Well, can I thank David Rowlands for his qualified support for what we are seeking to achieve? I think he makes a very important point that we have to act responsibly in order to prepare the public purse for an ageing society and also for an increasingly active ageing society as well.

Let me be absolutely crystal clear that, if you have a bus pass now, you will keep your bus pass in the future. There is no doubt at all. If you reach the age of 60 before 2022, you will have a concessionary fare pass at the age of 60. I'm going to provide Members, following this statement, with a table that demonstrates at what point in the next 19 to 20 years people will become eligible for the free bus pass, because we're not going to be introducing this in a very short period of time, we're going to stagger this over a significant period of time so that people aren't adversely affected in the way that some fear they will be. 

I have to say, if there was more money now, there would be very difficult decisions for people to make about how to spend it on bus services. Would you maintain the system as it is today, with increasing costs year on year; would you extend concessionary travel to others, such as young people, as Russell George has said; would you increase the bus services support grant, which essentially pays for bus services that are not commercially viable; would you introduce lower fares, possibly a flat-fare scheme, as I've talked about; or would you invest in the infrastructure that makes bus travel more desirable and attractive? Personally, I think the latter four are probably the most effective means of driving modal shift and achieving an equitable, fair bus system in Wales.

Concessionary travel brings significant benefits to individuals, their communities, local economies and the environment. Any proposal to increase the age for receiving a bus pass is likely to increase the risk of loneliness and isolation; increase costs on health and care services; hit the incomes of thousands of older people; and undermine the response to the climate emergency. As everybody knows, I live in Swansea. The number of my constituents who have got free bus passes who, in the summer, travel down to Mumbles because they've got a free buss pass and who wouldn't do it if they had to pay is substantial.

I know that the Minister and I have different people that we talk to and the different lifestyles that we live because I had a bus pass in July and I have used public transport more since then than I did in the previous three years. I think that that's what I find from the people I know: once they get their bus pass, they start using buses. It's because, basically, it doesn't cost you anything and you have to pay to park. That really is the position of many people, and we've got people who drive down to the bus stop to catch the free bus.

We know that bus companies are under pressure. Many communities that I represent are not well served by buses now, and this change would only create more communities without buses. I mean, you take demand out, don't you? When people come to use a bus pass, it puts demand into the system. You take those bus passes away, and demand, in my opinion, will decrease.

Reducing it to £1 or reducing it to whatever level you are talking about—. Can I say: reducing it to £1 would mean that the 53 percent who are paying for buses in Swansea would actually have their costs reduced by three-quarters, which is a huge reduction, but I'm not convinced that it will increase patronage. There's only one way to find out. Why didn't we have a test of this? Why didn't we have an area where you reduced the bus charges down to £1 for everybody in one council area? You could have done it in Merthyr, for example. [Interruption.] Pardon? 

It's been done in Liverpool.

Sorry, I—

Wait your turn, Minister; you'll get your turn too.

Sorry, I've got a problem with geography now because I always thought that Liverpool was in England, but, yes. Also, Liverpool is a city and cities are different. Cardiff is different to Swansea, and Swansea is different to the south Wales Valleys, as I'm sure people will say later.

If costs have to be cut, and we know that the Welsh Government have got a 2.3 per cent real-terms increase coming—. But, if they do, then other things can be cut: free Traws Cymru weekend travel; the Cardiff to Anglesey subsidised plane. These could be looked at, far more than taking away free bus travel from those who are expecting it. Yes, that will upset some people, I have no doubt about that, but you are upsetting tens of thousands of people with this one decision.

On the renewal of bus passes—and I'm sure we're not going to agree on this either—why could people not have been asked to inform Transport for Wales of a change to their address by December? All passes could then have been automatically produced and distributed using any changes of address that had taken place. That would have done it much quicker, much easier and, dare I say it, much cheaper. I'm sure that Transport for Wales have got lots of reasons. They told me that it was because of GDPR. I always know when people are trying to get around something because they either say it is for legal reasons or data protection reasons.

Mike Hedges, you're sounding very, very suspicious and cynical about Transport for Wales's protection of data, but it is for that very reason. It is also because the manufacturing process that's involved in the new cards is such that we have to ensure that the cards can be used anywhere in the UK, in the event that such an equitable system of applying the concessionary fare scheme is introduced, so that we could use it on a cross-border basis.

Can I first of all say that I did enjoy helping Mike to apply for his concessionary bus pass last week? It gave me a personal experience of how simple a process it is. That's why I am confident, in many respects, that all people who wish to secure the replacement bus pass will be able to do so in good time.

My question would be this: when you say that you have used buses more now than ever before because they are free, are you saying that you would not use buses in the future if you had to pay for them, recognising that we in this Chamber are all paid a pretty good salary? Or is it the case, now that you've experienced how good bus services are, that you would wish to retain that sort of service? My view is it's the latter. Once you start using a bus service, if it's good, if it gets you from A to B on time, if you're not stuck in traffic, if you can guarantee it's going to turn up on time, you will use it. You'll use it, and you particularly will use it if you lower the fares by as much as three quarters, as could happen under the vision that I've just outlined.

And insofar as testing this sort of approach goes, well, the ArrivaClick system in south Liverpool has a fare structure that is incredibly affordable and that's shown that over 50 per cent of users of that new innovative service are people who haven't used buses in the past, but, equally, that service is reliable and operates on the basis of offering shorter journey times than private vehicles. So, you have to take all of these factors and put them in the mix in order to drive modal shift.

The Deputy Presiding Officer took the Chair.

Now, I firmly believe that as a consequence of people working for more years of their lives, they're actually going to be more active for more years and they're going to be better connected to other human beings because they're in work for longer in their lives, and therefore the likelihood of this increasing loneliness and isolation is not a real threat, in my view. Indeed, the current average age of exit from the labour market has now risen to 65 for men and 63 for women. So, progressively, people are remaining in work longer, remaining in touch with other citizens and, so I believe that people will be just as well connected as they are now, even with the increase in eligibility.

I think there are fears out there that this proposal will lead to the loss of bus passes. It will not. There will be no losses in concessionary bus passes in Wales as a result of the changes that I've been able to detail today.

Okay, thank you. Janet Finch-Saunders.

Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. I have to be honest, I was actually quite cynical in the early days when you were bringing the free bus passes in. I thought, 'They'll never afford it.' And do you know what? I have to take my hat off to the Welsh Government because I think it's one of the best policies you've brought forward. [Interruption.] But it's actually been a victim of its own success. But I have to look at my own constituency, and we do have an older demographic there.

Now, last Wednesday, Dr Dai Lloyd AM, myself, and Julie, our Deputy Minister, and Helena Herklots were present for a hustings on the state of the nation report, the Older People’s Commissioner for Wales report, which included an awful lot of data that her and her team had collected from across Wales, and she herself has actually put out quite robust opposition to you moving the age from 60 to 65. And just some of the reasons—. I think Mike Hedges had actually read this before he read it out, but, basically, that it will have significant impact on our older people, it does run the risk of increasing loneliness and isolation, and also every pound spent on concessionary fares returns at least £2.87 in benefits for older people, their communities and local economies. So, it says here over 150,000—[Interruption.]—older people in Wales either will not travel or will choose other travel modes. I suppose, for me, what concerns me is that you've worked out the figures of what it's going to save the Government, but I've—[Interruption.] Right, okay, well, you've worked out the figures, then, as to why you're going to extend the age limit higher—

Are you coming to a question, please?

Yes, yes, yes. 

Not 'Yes, yes, yes'. Are you coming to a question, please?

Everybody else has had a preamble, so I—

Excuse me, you're the second speaker in your party's group and the first speaker has spoken as spokesperson and it's the rule that I used in the last statement, and that is actually within the Standing Orders. So, a brief preamble and a question, please.

Right. Over a third of older people do not make personal use of the internet. So, one of the concerns I have with the renewing of the bus passes—this was also raised last Tuesday with the older people's commissioner—so what is your Government doing to actually help those who haven't managed to renew their new bus pass? What are you doing to actually help them if they're not actually connected in any way to the internet? Going into libraries isn't working in my constituency. People actually want to be able to do it in a more traditional method.

Question No. 2: the importance of—

No, no. It's one question for subsequent speakers because your spokesperson has asked a number of questions, and we are running out of time as well. So, I'll let you do the second question, seeing as you've prepared it this time, but quickly, please.

Okay. Here we go. Question 2: the fact that 92 per cent of people asked agreed that having a bus pass allows them to be independent and that 81 per cent believe that their quality of life would suffer without one. In your statement, you confirmed there is plenty of time to apply for the new card. Given the time loss, will you actually extend the length of time? You said a month; I actually believe that you ought to extend this perhaps until April. Would you consider doing that?

We are constantly—. Can I thank Janet Finch-Saunders for her questions? We are constantly monitoring the number of applications that are being processed on a daily basis, and that's why we were able to update since the statement was translated. The figure concerning the number of applications that have been dealt with is now over 210,000. When this was translated, I think it was 150,000. It shows huge numbers of applications that are being processed every single day.

About 10,000 applications have been made by paper. In many circumstances, people have been able to print off the application form and then send it into Transport for Wales. In other circumstances, individuals have sought help at libraries. I take the point that the Member raises about libraries in her constituency, and I can assure the Member that a letter has been sent to the local authority with further information and further reminders of the obligations that local authorities have in assisting people in securing the replacement card.

I have to stress that the proposals that we're outlining will not lead us to save a penny. It's about ensuring that we don't leave the programme in a position where it's unsustainable, where it cannot be afforded. And the Member is right, you know, a lot of people were very cynical at the start, thinking that it could never be afforded. Well, we've made it affordable to date, and if we are to continue it into the future, we have to ensure that we can afford it, and that is why we are making the changes that I've outlined today.

Thank you. I have got three more speakers, so, again, can I just reiterate perhaps a very short preamble and a question from each three of you? And I will extend this by five minutes, okay? Rhianon Passmore.

Diolch, Deputy Llywydd. I'm grateful to the Minister for economy for his clarification that any person who holds a concessionary pass at this time, at the time the changes to the law are made, will not lose their entitlement to that pass in any circumstance. This will offer reassurance to any of my constituents who, in Islwyn, are in any doubt as to their eligibility. I'm also grateful for the Minister's repeated assertion that anyone who reaches the age of 60 before April 2022 will not be affected by these changes. Minister, you state that:

'Research undertaken for Welsh Government showed that free travel in and of itself is not sufficient for travellers to make a modal shift from the car to public transport.'

So, can you expand on the Welsh Government's measures to improve bus reliability, better integrations and accessible information to help achieve and develop a cleaner, greener modal shift?

The Member is absolutely right: nobody will lose their pass as a result of the renewal programme—nobody at all. Can I thank Rhianon Passmore for also raising a very important point that I've made, that free travel, in and of its own, does not entice people to shift from the private vehicle onto a bus? However, with other reforms that we have contained within the buses Bill, we are confident that we'll be able to deliver a significant modal shift. We'll do that through prioritising resource into infrastructure that leads to reliable and shorter journey times into green buses—and the Member makes a very important point about the contribution that travelling by bus can have in terms of reducing carbon emissions. We're going to be investing in fleets of zero-carbon buses, removing dirty diesel engines from our roads, from the bus fleet. And also, we'll be introducing quality partnerships that will drive up the standards of vehicles that people can expect to use.

I thank the Minister for his statement, and I'll be very brief because much around this issue has already been said, Deputy Presiding Officer. In your statement, you talked about the changes to the state age being incrementally raised, but we're not having a sort of plan as to when those will be, only the fact that April 2022 will be a starting point, but we don't actually have an indication as to when those incremental changes will take place. So, it would be very helpful for Members to see exactly when the changes will be and what age will be—[Inaudible.]—points, so that we can see the incremental changes. I appreciate very much that anyone who has got it is not going to lose it—crucial.

The other thing is, to actually use it, you need buses, and very many communities in my area in particular are seeing bus routes diminished, not actually increased. So, if we want to actually see a change of attitude towards bus transportation, we need to have the buses for them to actually use. So, you might well be changing this concession, but if there are no buses, no-one's going to use it and no-one's going to apply for bus passes, because they haven't got a bus to use. So, could you also give us assurances that you'll be investing in the services so that as people are able to get their bus passes as they get older—and I will say that there'll be some who'll not be retiring at 67, they'll be retiring earlier than that—can we make sure that there are buses for them to use?

Can I thank Dai Rees for his questions? He's absolutely right that people need to know when they are likely to be eligible for the concessionary bus pass under the new regime. I will circulate the table that I have right in front of me that shows every age from 50 to 60 on 1 April 2022 and when people will then become entitled to their concessionary card. I'll do that, if possible, Dirprwy Lywydd, today.

The changes that we are bringing in will mean that the scheme is consistent with eligibility in England, although the actual benefits that you have will be greater in Wales because travel will be unrestricted. I think Dai Rees makes a very, very important point that there's no point in having any form of concessionary scheme if you don't actually have buses that you can use, and the big challenge for the industry, across, indeed, it has to be said, the whole of the UK, has been in a lack of a fare box and that the number of passengers who pay the full fare has been falling, and bus services have not been particularly attractive for would-be passengers, and so people have gone back to their cars, and as a consequence, the number of fare-paying journeys within Wales has decreased. We need to get that number rising again to really ramp up the number of people who are using buses and who are paying for them, albeit, I would wish, at a vastly reduced rate.

In the short term, once we get to that point, the bus services support grant will be absolutely vital in maintaining non-commercially viable services. We've maintained that, the £25 million, for several years now, and from next year, we'll be linking the entitlement of the BSSG to the contribution that local authorities make, recognising that bus services are vitally important for communities, and particularly more rural and isolated communities.

Thank you. And, finally, Jenny Rathbone.

Thank you. Firstly, Transport for Wales messed up on this one, because they should've provided us with a briefing in advance and also to people who work in public services in our libraries, so that we knew that this change was coming, rather than having members of the public telling us what was going to happen, which certainly happened to me on 10 September.

Secondly, you're absolutely right that if we are going to have increased bus services to enable people to use these passes, then we need to drive more people to use the bus who need to be using the bus. So, exactly how are we going to make the bus journey faster than the car journey in our built-up areas, like in Cardiff, where we have disgraceful levels of air pollution? Because, at the moment, we are cross-subsidising the cost of people using their cars to come into work when they should be using the bus. So, exactly how are we going to make people leave the car at home for coming into the city centre, commuting?

Can I thank Jenny Rathbone for her questions? Clearly, the huge demand for access to the Transport for Wales website and particularly the page concerning the replacement of the card, posed difficulties. Transport for Wales have been offering drop-in sessions here in the National Assembly for Wales, and I can assure the Member that I wrote to all Assembly Members on 5 June of this year, pointing them to the fact that we would be embarking on a replacement scheme in the autumn, and it detailed the criteria would be remaining the same for all renewals and that people who may find it difficult to go through the online process would be able to get help from their local authorities and, in particular, from libraries.

I think Jenny Rathbone really hits the nail on the head in that, if you're not offering an enticing means of travelling over a shorter period by bus than you are by car, then you're not going to switch. You're just simply not going to choose to go by bus. So, in order to reduce journey times by bus, what we are doing at the moment is investing through the local transport fund and through other means in bus lanes; we're looking at the development of bus rapid transport as well, as a particular metro solution in some communities; we're looking at enforcement as well—better enforcement where irresponsible motorists park in bus lanes. This is something that my colleague Lee Waters is looking at with regard to pavement parking as well, which can disrupt bus journeys, where people park irresponsibly on pavements where they shouldn't and block roadways. So, there are multiple interventions that we are making to make bus journeys shorter in their time and also more reliable.

Thank you very much, Minister.