The next item is the Plaid Cymru debate on rolling stock strategy, and I call on Rhun ap Iorwerth to move the motion.

Motion NDM7195 Rhun ap Iorwerth

To propose that the National Assembly for Wales:

1. Notes the recommendation of the Enterprise and Business Committee of the Fourth Assembly in 2013 that the Welsh Government should 'develop and publish a rolling stock strategy as a matter of urgency, not only to ensure pressing decisions on rolling stock compatibility for electrification and accessibility legislation are taken in good time to avoid the increased cost and disruption associated with delay, but also to enhance the future capacity and quality of trains for the long-term'.

2. Regrets the Welsh Government's failure:

a) to take appropriate action to address the issues highlighted as long ago as 2013 in relation to rolling stock;

b) to meet the persons with reduced mobility (PRM) compliance deadline in relation to its rolling stock;

c) to make a timely request to the UK Government's Department for Transport for the requisite dispensation to keep non-PRM compliant trains in service from January 2020.

3. Expresses concern at the ongoing disruption experienced by many Transport for Wales rail passengers on a daily basis.

4. Calls on the Welsh Government to give assurance that it has contingency plans in place to mitigate the potential loss of a large proportion of its fleet.

Motion moved.

Thank you very much, Llywydd. I'm pleased to have the opportunity to move this motion today, which relates directly to the everyday lives of thousands of people. How we travel for work or for leisure has a major impact on our standard of living. It has an impact on our economic opportunities as individuals and as communities. The quality, availability and choices in terms of transport can influence our health, and also affects the environment. That's why, in the context of rail, the last franchise period was so painful for us here in Wales. I felt for those working for Arriva very often, because the very grave failings of that franchise were largely based on the way in which it was created by the UK Government back in the early years of devolution.

That's why I have been very willing to give guarded support to the new model that we have, giving more accountability, allowing us to move to a period of growth in terms of rail in Wales, and allowing us to be more ambitious through the Transport for Wales model. Perhaps because of that hope, people have been so disappointed to see some of the intense problems that have cast a shadow over the first few months of Transport for Wales Rail. When we see trains being cancelled, trains being overcrowded, and delivery of new trains being postponed time and time again, that's the exact thing that we needed not to see as Welsh Government tried to regain the confidence of the people of Wales in their train services.

One of those problems is the future of the Pacer trains, which are trains that are used by thousands of people. There are genuine concerns that the slowness of the Government in terms of forward planning in terms of rolling stock is leading us now into a very uncertain period for passengers. What we're trying to do through this motion today is look for that assurance that we haven't had so far, although we've raised this issue several times—myself and several Members on these benches in this Senedd.

I've learnt a lot about trains since being elected as AM. I used to do what most people do—just get on a train. It would, hopefully, get me to where I would want to go, roughly on time, hopefully, and that was it, really. But I've learned that making that happen is a pretty complex matter.

One of the things I learnt early on as a member of the Enterprise and Business Committee in the last Assembly is that just getting a train is problematic in itself. Trains are hard to come by, quite often—a problem that has been particularly acute in Wales, much of that, again, down to the abysmal specification of the last franchise. 'Cascading' sounds almost romantic—the idea of cascading trains from one user to another. It means passing on your old stock to another user, possibly doing it up a bit on the way, passing it on to another one, passing it on to another one—I should say 'cascading' it on to another one. Wales, more often than not, was at the bottom of the cascade, with second, third, fourth hand, decades-old trains in many instances.

It is exciting that there is a programme of delivering new rolling stock in years to come, although it is way, way overdue, of course. The rolling stock companies, by the way, the ROSCOs, were set up by the Tories to take over the previously publicly owned rolling stock. It was discovered that they could make much more money, not by renewing rolling stock, but by overcharging for ageing, cascaded stock. So, we've suffered the blunt edge of that here in Wales.

But, as we move towards the end of this year, the trains that we have now, the old, cascaded stock, a lot of it, have to go because of PRM-compliance issues, the need for accessibility on all our trains. Now, we've known this was coming for some time, and we've also known that we have a problem with procuring rolling stock. We, as a committee in the last Assembly, warned Welsh Government, 'Even though there are years to go until the end of that franchise, you have to be planning for new rolling stock to take us into the next franchise.' Now, with the PRM compliance issue in particular, we now know that Welsh Government did not act quickly enough to seek a dispensation to continue using non-compliant trains after the end of this year, when it became clear that new trains wouldn't be available on time.

There are serious consequences to not getting that dispensation. The removal of non-compliant Pacers from service would result in a loss of nearly half the rolling stock used for Valleys lines. There are also several other trains that are non-PRM compliant that would be grounded, along with the Pacers, should the necessary dispensation not be in place by 1 January 2020, including—it's not just Valleys trains—some trains currently used for the Holyhead service. Services could be axed on other parts of the network—for example, Fishguard, Wrexham, Holyhead—in order to maximise the rolling stock available for use on the Valleys lines, those busy, busy commuter lines.

Now, at a recent drop-in session in the Assembly, Transport for Wales said that they would be using a two-car Pacer train coupled to a PRM-compliant Sprinter to ensure the trains are compliant, even if parts of the train are non-compliant, and I think Transport for Wales have been saying that on Twitter too. A recent press release, though, stating that they'll be using the Pacers predominantly as four-car sets on the Rhymney line, seems to contradict the information coming from other Transport for Wales sources. But the fleet data would suggest that there aren't enough compliant sets, there aren't enough Sprinters, in order to enable even that plan, and that Transport for Wales would have to run some trains as Pacer only.

Now, it's not only Wales that has been unable to get new trains on time. Northern Rail were also in a similar position, but they got the dispensation, and our concern here is that Welsh Government, even though, as our motion states, they were warned years ago about the need to plan for changes in rolling stock, to plan for a future in that context where we know rolling stock is hard to come by, but where there are serious procurement issues. Welsh Government did not act until it was too late, and I have not yet heard from Welsh Government an assurance other than that they are in active discussions with the Department for Transport and the UK Government, and that these discussions are ongoing.

You mentioned the Rhymney line. I've raised these concerns myself directly with Transport for Wales, and the contact I've had with Transport for Wales has said that we expect DfT to provide us with what we need in plenty of time. That is what they've said to me.

Okay. Have you had that assurance?

I've had the assurance from Transport for Wales.

'Expecting it to happen', but I haven't yet heard what passengers using these trains from day to day need to hear, which is that this will happen, because having an assurance that talks are ongoing, that they hope things will be okay, that they trust that people can get together to resolve the issue, isn't good enough, because if you add the general election into the mix, the Christmas recess coming up, there's a concern that, even if dispensation is granted now, and even if they can come to some agreement, there may not be sufficient time left before 31 December to complete all necessary paperwork.

They expect them by the end of November.

Well, wonderful, but we need to see that now, and it does not take away from the issue that this has already been resolved. In other areas, Northern Rail in particular, where they took that action on time, they managed to get the dispensation. Now, whether Welsh Government was chancing that there wouldn't be a UK election, that there wouldn't be other distractions for civil servants, I'm not sure, but we need that announcement from Welsh Government here today that this is happening and not that talks are ongoing, otherwise commuters, rail users using these trains, dependent on these trains for their well-being, for their work, will be hugely concerned as we head towards the last day of 2019.

I have selected the two amendments to the motion, and I call on the Minister for Economy and Transport to formally move amendment 1, tabled in the name of Rebecca Evans. 

Amendment 1—Rebecca Evans

Delete all after 'National Assembly for Wales' and replace with:

1. Welcomes the £5bn investment being made in the Welsh rail network over the next 15 years including more than £800m in rolling stock.

2. Notes the UK-wide challenges facing the rail industry in relation to PRM compliance, impacting franchises across the UK.

3. Recognises one of the main reasons for rolling stock shortages is the UK Government’s short-sighted decision to truncate its electrification programme, including to Swansea, leading to delays in the availability of rolling stock.

4. Calls on the UK Government to ensure the general election does not interfere with requests for PRM derogations to allow additional capacity to run on the network for a short period into 2020.

5. Notes the rolling stock system across the UK is broken and calls for the UK Government to work with the devolved administrations to develop a new model.

Amendment 1 moved.

I move.

I now call on Russell George to move amendment 2, tabled in the name of Darren Millar. Russell George. 

Amendment 2—Darren Millar

Add as new point at end of motion:

Notes that responsibility for provision of rolling stock capacity for Welsh services and Wales-only services under the railway franchise that was operated by Arriva Trains Wales was a matter for the Welsh Government since 2006.

Amendment 2 moved.

Diolch, Presiding Officer. I formally move amendment 2 in the name of my colleague Darren Millar. Can I congratulate Plaid on a very well crafted motion and indicate our full support today? The Government's amendment today was not well crafted, as it does fail to recognise the responsibility for provision of capacity for Welsh services and Wales-only services under the railway franchise that was operated by Arriva Trains Wales. That was a matter for the Welsh Government and has been since 2006, and this is the basis of my amendment today in the name of Darren Millar and to the point to which I want to speak about in my contribution.

The Government amendment points to investment in rolling stock over the next 15 years. That's very welcome, but what on earth, I would say, has happened for the last 13 years, which is the point that we need to debate today? This is the subject of the debate today. The Welsh Government have been peddling a myth. It's a myth that the rolling stock has been a matter for the UK Government. That is not true. It is a matter for the Welsh Government and it has been for the past decade and more. The truth is that responsibilities were passed from the Department for Transport to the Welsh Assembly Government, as it was then, in a joint parties agreements that came into operation on 1 April 2006. Therefore, the Plaid Cymru motion is entirely correct, stating that the Welsh Government has failed to take responsibility or take appropriate action to address the issues with capacity on Wales-only rail services not just since 2013, as it happens, but as far back as 2006.

The Government amendment also requests that the UK Government should work with devolved administrations to develop a different model for the rolling stock system, but it has to be remembered that the Welsh Government has had full discretion under the devolution arrangements since the joint parties agreement was agreed, and that funding attributed to Wales-only and Welsh services has been transferred to the Welsh Government under a separate agreement since April 2006, and that has been part of the baseline block grant from the Treasury since April 2008. But, of course, the Government do know this, because the Government are aware of this and the Government made its own funding available for additional carriages back in 2007.

And, as Rhun mentioned, the Welsh Government was warned in 2013 by the Enterprise and Business Committee that it must address rolling stock issues as a matter of urgency, and it failed to heed those warnings. I think the Minister was a member of that committee for some time. I'm not sure if he was a member when those recommendations were made and which the Government then sadly rejected. We have words bandied around from the Government in regard to the previous franchise holder, of 'handing over appalling trains', and suggestions that Transport for Wales have inherited rolling stock akin to a 30-year-old Ford Escort with the clutch out of order and brakes not working, and it's been said that some equipment passed over was infected with dead rats. But the reality is that the buck stops with the Welsh Government in relation to the state of trains in Wales and planning for rolling stock. The Welsh Government did not act when they should have back in 2013, if not earlier.

The current service, as well, as has been pointed out in the opening contribution, is still completely unacceptable. Over recent months, we continue to see cancelled trains, delayed trains, lack of staff, signalling problems, capacity problems, lack of quality information to passengers, and overcrowding, and this is unacceptable by anyone's standards and hardly the immediate transformation that was promised by the Government.

The Plaid motion today, I think, has hit the nail on the head in terms of the present situation and, disappointingly, the Government has done a more or less 'delete all' to the motion put forward today. So, I look forward to further contributions to this debate this afternoon, Presiding Officer.

There's no doubt that people are frustrated by the state of the rail network and, in many cases, as frustrated as they were under Arriva. But there's also no doubting the fact that the Government is going to deliver a radically reformed transport service in the next three years. I don’t think there's any dispute about that, and that's clearly what the Minister intends and what will be delivered. However, I would recognise, in the last six weeks alone, I've been contacted on three separate occasions about cancellations, overcrowding and the associated health and safety issues, about more overcrowding, leaking carriages, and the price of season tickets, and about more cancellations and delays. So, there has been an array of complaints that have taken place over the past six weeks that have been unacceptable to rail users, and I think that's absolutely the case.

I think, perhaps, the problem we've got is that when Transport for Wales took over the rail service, some of the language used by the Minister perhaps was a little bit overselling what was likely to happen immediately. So, for example, when the Minister was questioned in the Chamber, he talked about unwrapping the presents, and he made much of the fact that the committee report said that the Minister had heroic ambition. And I think he does have heroic ambition, and I think he will deliver it, but I think what we didn’t do and what the Government didn't do was explain that the transformation would not be overnight, and I think there was a degree of expectation that was a little high with what could be delivered. I think that's a fair analysis of what's happened.

What I don’t think is a fair analysis of what has happened is some of the things that both Rhun ap Iorwerth and Russell George have said, particularly as the information that I've had from Transport for Wales today—and this is quoting Transport for Wales—says,

'We expect to have the written approval regarding the derogation before the end of November.'

This is what I've been told directly by Transport for Wales. If that's the case, then it entirely undermines the spirit of the motion.

Will you take an intervention?

I will.

Would you also agree that the Pacers were meant to have gone by the end of 2019, and that was a promise too? Promises get broken.

Yes, and there's an issue with rolling stock across the United Kingdom, and I think it would be foolhardy to remove Pacers when people want a seat on the train. It would be foolhardy to remove Pacers when there is nothing to replace them with. As a committee member, I've been to the Canton depot three times and I've seen the heroic work that is going on there to keep the rolling stock together. There is simply no other rolling stock available in this country to put directly on the line to replace the Pacers immediately. [Interruption.]  I'm not going to take another intervention, because I won't have much time.

The other thing I'd say is Russell George knows very well, because he was Chair of the committee that took the evidence when the Welsh Government told us—the Minister told us—that the Welsh Government went to the UK Government in 2011 to request support to bring in diesel capacity to the Welsh lines, and the UK Government said to the Welsh Government, 'Under no circumstances must you have any more diesel stock on that line because diesel will be obsolete very soon because we're going to electrify the lines.' That never happened, that diesel stock was never allowed to be bought. And the Chair of committee—who I like, I like Russell George very much as Chair of committee; I like him less in his position as a spokesperson for the Conservative Party—knows very well that that's exactly what was said. 

The point I would make is—and you said you disagreed with some of my points, but I'm not quite sure which points you were disagreeing with—that I stand by what I said, Hefin. The Department for Transport wrote back to the committee, actually, clarifying the position that I outlined today, that the rolling stock has been the responsibility of the Welsh Government since the agreement reached in 2006. That was the point I was making.

And the UK Government gave the Welsh Government absolutely no support and it actively prevented them from bringing new diesel stock onto the lines. That was prevented. I'm sure the Minister can elaborate further on that, as I'm absolutely sure he didn't mislead our committee.

I also want to pay tribute to Transport for Wales, who've been very open. When I was elected in 2016, I met with Ian Bullock, who was then chief executive of Arriva Trains Wales, and I met with Tom Joyner, and as a result, leading into the era of James Price at Transport for Wales, we have had extra rolling stock delivered on the Rhymney line. I have seen, for example, Transport for Wales introducing the popular class 37 loco-hauled stock on the Rhymney line. I'm worried, when that's going to go, people won't be happy. From 15 December, the Valleys lines will see more four-carriage trains on peak services, 6,500 extra seats. We are seeing improvement. And what I've seen personally as Assembly Member for Caerphilly are extra seats at peak times, morning and evening, on the Rhymney to Cardiff line. These have been delivered directly as a result of the pressure that I've put on Arriva and Transport for Wales, and working with them and their—let's use the word—heroic staff to deliver these extra seats. The stock is not up to standard, but the staff are and they're delivering that quality service. I am confident that we're going to see a transformed service in the three years, but, in the meantime, what we've got are heroic Transport for Wales staff keeping that stock on the line. 

The Valleys lines face serious problems on a daily basis, as do lines throughout the south-east of Wales. I know this from my own experience and from the complaints I see from constituents. Just this morning, a two-carriage train was used at peak time between Ebbw Vale and Cardiff, with people complaining on social media of being packed in like sardines and feeling unsafe. My own train in this morning from Abercynon was packed before it arrived at our station so people were standing the whole way down. People weren't able to get on and we arrived in Queen Street nearly 15 minutes late. It's something that happens day after day, and it's true on the Merthyr, Aberdare and Rhymney lines. Morning after morning of being late, only to face the same problems travelling home after work. We're told when we complain that all the carriages available are in use. In other words, Transport for Wales has insufficient rolling stock available to provide an acceptable level of service on too many days.

The Government has committed, as has been said, to introduce four trains per hour on the Rhymney line in 2022. Well, these added trains are needed now, so I'm particularly concerned to learn that this deadline doesn't seem to be reflected in TfW's annual report, which instead says 2023. And they've actually indicated to us that they're looking at December 2023, which means passengers won't feel the benefit for nearly four years. So, I'd appreciate if the Minister can confirm when he expects we'll have those four trains per hour on the Rhymney line. It's worth pointing out as well that we used to have four services per hour on this line past Bargoed when TfW took over the service last year. So, it currently looks like it's going to take five years just to bring us back to square one.

I'm also concerned about the proposed drop in capacity on these trains when the 769s are replaced by new trains in 2023. We expect, I understand, a reduction in overall capacity of 24 per cent during peak times, and a reduction of 35 per cent in seated capacity between Caerphilly and Bargoed. These figures have been confirmed by TfW in a freedom of information request. Given that lines are overcrowded now, it defies comprehension that we're actually looking at a reduction in capacity in the future. I look to the Minister for assurance that he will look into this matter and take action to prevent this drop in capacity from happening. 

Now, looking further east in my region, train passengers face their own problems because of a lack of trains. Work to dual the line between Ebbw Vale and Cardiff was halted until the Welsh Government published a new feasibility study. Now, this was supposed to be published by the summer, but I'm not aware of this having happened, so I'd be grateful for an update on these plans. As I understand it, unless this work is done, it won't be possible to increase the number of trains per hour between Newport and Ebbw Vale from one to two, and there is huge demand for this to happen. 

Staying in this part of my region, I'd also like to ask what's going on with plans to reopen stations at Crumlin and Magor. There are dedicated campaigners in my region who are passionate about reopening these stations, and I'd welcome a meeting with the Minister to discuss their case. The 2017 national transport finance plan makes reference to reopening Crumlin station as part of phase 3 of work surrounding the metro, but this commitment isn't in the equivalent report for 2018. And in terms of Magor, it's referenced in the metro document, but absent from the national transport finance plan since 2015. So, I'd welcome some clarity from the Minister about his plans for these stations. 

Finally, something that all train commuters will be unhappy about is the increasing cost of travelling by train at the precise time of climate emergency when we should be looking to incentivise public transport. People feel they're paying more for an inadequate service. I'd like to query whether the fare reduction that was promised by the First Minister on 12 November will be implemented in January, as he indicated. The Transport for Wales website currently shows no such reduction in fares in January, so I'd be grateful for some clarity on that point.

If the Llywydd will allow me, I think the time will just quickly allow me to raise one final point. The safety of passengers has to be paramount. We've heard reference, and I agree totally, in terms of the heroic staff that we have in Transport for Wales, but I was on a train recently that stopped in Treforest because a passenger had a knife and was behaving threateningly. The staff and the police acted quickly and very efficiently in that case, but it does illustrate how important it is that we have sufficient numbers of conductors on the trains, especially late at night, when people have been drinking and there are concerns about safety. So I'd welcome anything the Minister could say to reassure us on that point.

Whilst there are a number of elements in the Plaid Cymru debate we are able to support, we also acknowledge and support a number of the Labour amendments. Under item 1 and 2(a), Plaid are right to point out that, as long ago as 2013, the then Enterprise and Business Committee proposed that the Welsh Government develop a strategy with regard to rolling stock, but we have to acknowledge that this was difficult for the Welsh Government to implement under the previous rail franchise, which Rhun has rightly criticised. 

Under item 2(b), although it is highly regrettable that all trains cannot be made PRM compliant by 2020, and notwithstanding the arguments about dispensation, we must be mindful that there have been huge difficulties with assessing suitable rolling stock, which has severely affected the Government's ability to comply. 

We fully support the call outlined in item 2(c) and would endorse the proposed approach to the UK Government.

I would also express concern at the continuing disruption to rail passengers in the transition period from the old franchise to the new collaborative set-up between Transport for Wales and KeolisAmey, but we have to accept that it will take time for these new working practices to bed in. 

Whilst we can't accept the 'delete all' element of the Government's amendment, we do acknowledge and accept all the other points in their amendments. We would further add to the third amendment that it was not only the cancellation of the electrification of the Swansea line, but there were a number of other electrification projects throughout England that also had the effect of limiting the rolling stock that could have been—and I'm not saying this as a derogatory element, Rhun—cascaded and available to the Welsh Government, had these projects gone ahead. We fully endorse the Government's claims in items 4 and 5 and would also urge the UK Government to take note of these demands.

We acknowledge the correctness of the amendment tabled by Darren Millar, but would point out that the conditions under which that franchise was set up did make it difficult for the Welsh Government to act in a way that could be endorsed by the Welsh public—i.e. spending money to subsidise a profitable private company.

Following on from this debate, we would, of course, urge the Welsh Government to continue in their endeavours to secure the very best options in rolling stock as soon as it is able, but let us acknowledge that this cannot be done overnight.

Minister, I'm very pleased that we have this opportunity today, because it enables me to highlight again the case for a new walkway station at Magor, which I know you're very familiar with, and, indeed, was mentioned by Delyth earlier. There is great community support for a new station there as part of the UK new stations fund. Work has been done, stages have been gone through and further stages remain. Monmouthshire County Council is committed to providing funding, with the Welsh Government being looked to for matching money to enable that further work, as part of the UK new stations process, to proceed. I know you're very well aware of all of these issues, Minister, but I wonder whether there's anything you might say today in terms of an update, given that the local community are very eager to learn of any new developments or progress. 

Would you take just a very short—? Can I fully endorse what John is saying with regard to the Magor station? I think you have to now acknowledge exactly the work that's been put in in order to get that station. I really do feel you ought to make the funds available, Minister, for that scheme to go ahead.

Thank you for that support, David, on what is an issue that certainly unites the local community, and I know many Assembly Members have been involved with it. 

I'd also like to echo what Delyth said about the Ebbw Vale to Newport passenger rail link, because this is a matter that is so long-standing, and there's such an obvious gap in local services that, again, communities feel very strongly that progress—timely progress and sufficient progress—needs to be made. Again, I wonder if, Minister, there's any update that you might be able to provide. 

The other matter I'd like to mention is the CAF train manufacturing facility in my constituency. I'm very pleased to say that as part of manufacturing and industry in Wales we now have this train manufacturer here, which I think is very valuable—it's very successful already. It's a tremendous sight to see those trains being built at the plant, and it's very valuable to discuss issues with staff and management there. They take a very obvious pride in what's now taking place in Wales, and I'm sure everybody here would do the same.

But, as ever, there are issues that need to be addressed, one of which is a relief line, which needs to be built to enable the testing of electric trains and is also very important for major events in Cardiff, allowing trains to be on that line waiting to be called upon to provide those additional services and prevent queuing and chaos in our capital city. So, again, if there's any update on when that might be built, Minister, I'd be very grateful, because, obviously, the sooner the better.

Another matter is a forum for rail firms in Wales. I think we're really lucky to have this development now at CAF in Newport. It's felt that if all the players in the rail industry in Wales were brought together in a forum to share experience, to share ideas, to co-operate and to collaborate for mutual benefit, and to be a strong voice for the industry in Wales, that would be valuable, and I wonder what the Minister might do to facilitate that.

A final matter, really, is the skilled workforce that CAF require. It's very noticeable when you walk around the plant that the engineers are very heavily male in gender, and this contrasts greatly to the situation in the Basque Country, where CAF are based, where it's approximately 50/50 between men and women for their engineers. So, we know I know already, but this really illustrates the need to change culture, to change mindsets. I know it's an issue for schools and colleges, but for Welsh Government and for all of us, really. Because there are very rewarding careers that are not being accessed by women to the extent that they should be at CAF and in general, and, of course, firms such as CAF are missing out on half of our population in terms of the skilled workforce that they require and they would benefit from. So, there's work to do on a number of issues, but I just think it's a fantastic asset for Wales to have that plant in my constituency. I'm very lucky to have it there, and I think Wales is very lucky to have it as a country.

I sometimes feel great sympathy for the Minister because John, Hefin, other Members here, and myself, get up and we incessantly labour on about the particular interests in our own communities. But we make no excuse for this because I sometimes feel like I'm doing running surgeries when I travel back and forth every day from Maesteg to Cardiff. There, I sit down and speak to people on everything under the sun, but it is very often rail services. And there is excitement, I have to say, about the changes, some of which are imminent—and I'll turn to those on my own stretch of the track at the moment—but also some frustration on the things that have been said.

It's great to see that there are more and more rail passenger users. That's a testimony to the fact that people are now switching on to those modes; they're seeing congestion on the roads and so on. But I have to say, I'm fortunate in that I get on the train in Maesteg or Ewenny Road or in Garth, I'm always guaranteed a seat; even on match days, I'm guaranteed a seat. But actually, even on a normal day in peak time, by the time you get to Bridgend, it's filling up; Llanharan, it's full up; Pontyclun, it's standing room only. But there are ways through this. So, I do welcome the fact—. I'm going out tomorrow to look at the refurbished and ultra-modernised class 170 carriages that are being introduced—bigger capacity, more seats, more space, more comfort, with passenger information on board, which we do not have on the current trains, with proper functioning Wi-Fi, we hope, as well. Also with fully accessible toilets, et cetera, et cetera. I'm looking forward to seeing those because those, for my line, will make a real difference at those times when we get to the Llanharan and the Pontycluns, to have more capacity, more seating capacity, is not only what we need and what we absolutely need purely for health and safety, because I've travelled enough on the London tube to know what it looks like, and from Pontyclun inwards, it looks like that increasingly now at peak times. But these carriages will help because they will increase capacity. So, I'm looking forward to seeing those tomorrow.

I'm looking forward, as well, to seeing them introduced not just on the regular routes but also on the Sunday service, which is coming on 15 December to Maesteg. Our line has been without a Sunday service forever and a day. People who are alive now, who are 50 years of age, have never seen a Sunday service, myself included. This will be the first time we see it. This idea of creating a seven-day-a-week network, where people cannot only travel for the January sales or in to work in Bridgend and Cardiff on the rail, but also can come up to see us as well, and to see the annual festival we do of choral voices and so on. They can come up to visit us on the train, or they can go walking or cycling up on our hills by coming on the train with it. This is critical.

But I do think we're going through a difficult time, and the difficult time is that transition between the high expectations that everybody has, the massive investment that is unprecedented investment that is going to be going into these, and the realisation of that when people are still, on a day-by-day basis, struggling. But I am more of a half glass full than a half glass empty, and I sympathise with people, but I don't sympathise with them by sitting behind a desk thinking, 'Oh, isn't it awful?' I'm doing it every day as well. I do see it.

So, we do need to keep our foot on the pedal here, and I know the Minister will. He'll be harangued by me about things like how we can release more capacity on the rail by dealing with the Pencoed crossing and the Pencoed bridge. That is critical to some of the things that have been talked about, because if we can get more frequency of services by dealing with the crossing issue there, along that mainline stretch, we can have not just more carriages, but more trains more frequently going up and down.

The investment along the Maesteg stretch of the Maesteg to Bridgend line, in order to get on a single line track, two an hour, maybe three an hour in future or whatever, well, I'm looking forward to seeing the results of the study that the Minister has commissioned on this because I'm really hopeful that in relatively short order, we will be able to signal to people that there is a way forward. I'm sure it'll mean spending some money, but to actually see that, on a busy Monday morning between 7 a.m. and 9 a.m., we don't have just two trains—one at 6.50 a.m. and one at 8.04 a.m., but we'll have four trains actually getting us into Bridgend and Cardiff. That's in line with what you're trying to do with the wider network, so we'd like a part of that as well, but we know it will require some significant investment.

And that is my frustration with this as well, I have to say, looking at the hard facts and figures of the lack of investment in the hard rail infrastructure over many, many years from the UK Government. And this isn't a political point, it's a point of darn frustration that we could've fixed things in our area and moved to digital loop, for example, with the Tondu loop, to increase the frequency of that—we could've done that 20 years ago if the money hadn't been sucked down to the south-east of England. Now, we've still got a guy who walks up and down the stairs from the signal box to hand over a key to the carriage that comes past. This is Victorian trains. It's very cute and quaint, but for goodness' sake—.

So, Minister, keep on pushing hard on this. There is frustration out there, but I think every time we see progress with the 170s on my line, followed by brand new rolling stock a few years down the line, Sunday service on 15 December—each one of those will give confidence to people that we're going in the right direction.

I call on the Minister for Economy and Transport, Ken Skates.

Diolch, Llywydd. I'll begin by just stating again—and it's something that I've said before—that we made a very deliberate decision at the start of the franchise procurement not to tie the hands of bidders by preparing a rolling stock strategy, in line with the advice that we received from industry leaders and observers at the time, and which has been subsequently widely recognised as being the basis for our new approach to the railway. We wanted to allow bidders maximum flexibility to innovate.

Now, if, six years ago, we had chosen what types of trains we wanted to run across Wales, the scope for fresh thinking would've been severely hampered. For example, how would we have ensured that half of the new trains would be built in Wales, given that CAF—Construcciones y Auxiliar de Ferrocarriles—hadn't even begun looking at Wales at that time? Would we have developed a new, low-cost approach to overhead electrification? Would Members have accepted a strategy that relied upon battery, overhead and diesel hybrid trains? How would we have balanced the ambitions for a flexible metro with on-street running within a fixed budget envelope?

I was a Member of that committee and I feel that the recommendation of a rolling stock strategy at the time was foolish, because no strategy written in 2013 or thereafter would've dealt with the issues that I've already outlined, or taken full advantage of technology that is only becoming available in the second half of this decade. We deliberately wanted to harness the collective thinking of our four competitive bidders to develop the most appropriate solution—a solution that maximised the outcomes we set out at the start of the procurement exercise, but fixed within a funding envelope.

Now, whilst not wishing to dwell on the past, it's also important to set the record straight about what control and influence the Welsh Government held back in 2013 in respect of the previous rail franchise controlled by UK Government. In 2013 the landscape was incredibly different. Widespread electrification plans across the UK would've seen full electrification of many routes across the midlands, the north, then closer to home on the Great Western main line to Oxford, Bristol and Swansea. This would've released, as Rhun ap Iorwerth has described it, or cascaded a number of modern diesel trains, which could've strengthened the Wales and borders fleet, as well as provided contingency to release units for disabled persons modifications. But as David Rowlands and Hefin David have both said, the previous UK Government dramatically scaled back these plans, and, in addition, other projects such as Crossrail have been delayed. Consequently, any rolling stock strategy in 2013 would, by now, be completely irrelevant.

I think it's disingenuous of some Members to claim that no action was taken to try and reduce the risks of ageing rolling stock and requirements under the people with restricted mobility legislation. For the Wales and borders operation, the shortage of units was identified in 2017, and as a result, trains were ordered then from Porterbrook for introduction in May of 2018. But those trains have not been delivered as Porterbrook promised, and the programme is now almost two years late, hence the need for the mitigations, including the continued operation of some existing trains. Therefore, the only option available was to apply for dispensation to continue the operation of non-PRM train units until the modifications are completed and cascaded trains introduced. This is becoming, as Members have already identified, a familiar problem across the United Kingdom, where capacity issues are pressing because of a lack of diesel trains. It's wrong to say that we've taken too long to apply for dispensation, because it was absolutely right and proper that we exhausted every opportunity to be compliant, and that we pressed Porterbrook as far as we possibly could to deliver the trains as they had promised.

It's for the UK Government to now grant the dispensation, and I expect it to be made very shortly. But if Members expressing concerns today really wish to be constructive, then they should support our application for dispensation. We are not alone—as Members have already identified, Northern have sought dispensation, but we also understand three other train operators have applied for dispensation now.

Furthermore, Llywydd, all Members could help to deliver new stations and new infrastructure, as John Griffiths and David Rowlands highlighted with Magor station, by once again calling for our recommendations to the Williams review to be accepted, just as Huw Irranca-Davies alluded to.

So, whilst I'm not happy that we've had to go down the avenue of seeking dispensation, we've been forced to do it, because the alternative would have been far, far worse for the people of Wales. The removal of trains from service would have led to long-term, widespread cancellations across Wales, including the north Wales coast, north-east Wales commuter services, west Wales rural services and also south Wales commuter services. In short, it would not be possible to deliver a usable rail service in Wales.

Now, up until October 2018, PRM modification programmes were the responsibility of the previous franchise operator, which was not actually required to undertake modifications, and those programmes were under the control of the Department for Transport. Therefore, whilst other English train operators have had around five years to ensure PRM compliance, Transport for Wales has only had 14 months. I hope the Chamber will therefore recognise today the hard work of TfW over this incredibly short period to ensure that as many units as possible are PRM compliant on 1 January next year. Indeed, we estimate that around two thirds of the 134-train fleet will be PRM compliant at that time.

Now, had we done, as some Members are calling for—and given the apparent inability of the rolling stock industry to respond swiftly, I am convinced that any rolling stock strategy that we had developed would have fallen short for reasons outside of our control and would have undermined our innovative approach to procuring the franchise.

What is it that Welsh Government is actually doing? Well, we're investing £738 million in the south-east Wales metro, we're making £800 million of investment available to ensure that, from 2023, new rolling stock will be available on the Wales and borders route, with approximately half of these trains built here in Wales. We're also investing around £40 million in improving the customer service and resilience of our existing trains.

Will you take an intervention?

Within months of the—. Yes, of course.

There was an implication that I heard in the Chamber earlier from another Member that said that the new stock will actually have less capacity— 

No.

—on the Rhymney line than elsewhere. Can you just give us a reassurance that that isn't going to happen?

We're increasing capacity on each of those lines in line with our vision for metro services, so there will be more seats available to commuters at key times, there will be more services, there'll be four trains per hour on metro lines. This is a huge undertaking, an incredibly ambitious exercise, and within months of the start of the new franchise we were also able to give the gift of new services in the north with the reopening of the Halton Curve. From this December, we're going to be introducing a huge increase in Sunday services across Wales, and we're also investing a £194 million in station improvement across the Wales and borders network. I'm pleased that at least five new stations will be created, and one of those, Bow Street, is, as of this week, under construction.

Finally, on safety, we reached agreement with rail unions to ensure that we kept a guard on each train. So, we can choose—we can choose to be backward-looking or we can choose to look to the future. We can look to a brighter future when more services of higher quality are being delivered for the people of Wales.

I call on Rhun ap Iorwerth to reply to the debate. 

Thank you very much, Llywydd, and thank you to everyone who's contributed to this debate today. I know that there's a feeling that some of the questions that were raised weren't answered by the Minister. I'm sure Delyth Jewell will pose those questions again in correspondence to the Minister to pursue some of those issues.

It was a debate about one specific issue, but, of course, as expected, the debate opened up with many Members across the political spectrum discussing those issues that are of most concern to them in their own constituencies. I welcomed the admission from Hefin David that Government after Government, Labour and Conservative, at a UK level had failed to make the necessary investment in Welsh railways over a period of decades, which has left us in a position where we are facing—

Can I just say that you're misrepresenting me, because I didn't say that?

I do believe you did.

I did not. I certainly did not.

You blamed former Governments for not investing in rail in Wales, meaning that we have a rather steep hill to climb, which is quite clearly the case.

So, points have been made about the south-east particularly. Others have been in touch with me from outside the Chamber talking about the need to look at the western Valleys too—the Neath, Swansea, Dulais valley areas, where much more needs to be done to strengthen our railways to take people away from their cars. There are concerns too in north and mid Wales, of course.

But we are talking here about one specific issue, namely why are we in this position where we still haven't been given dispensation to use these trains after the end of the year? I hear the Minister's comments, along with Members on his backbenches, that they expect an announcement by the UK Government's Department for Transport soon, but we haven't had that as of yet. This is about accountability, holding the Government's feet to the fire, as it were, to ensure that everything is done to deliver on this. And the fundamental question that hasn't been answered for me is: why wasn't there an alternative plan in place? Why wasn't there a plan B in case there was a problem with the delivery of these new trains? Because that's the situation here. Nobody is suggesting, as far as I know, that we are withdrawing these trains from service, as some have suggested. No—unfortunately, we are seeking dispensation to continue using them after the end of the year. That's what we are doing, and we are hugely concerned that that dispensation hasn't been given to date, and the problem as I see it is that the Welsh Government has failed to request that dispensation in good time, and that's why we're facing this ongoing uncertainty.

We know that promises have not been adhered to, and I'm sure that I am accurately quoting you, Hefin David, when I say that I agree with you that the Minister had overpromised. And overpromising and underdelivery is a very serious issue, because it does undermine people's confidence in what the Government is doing. I know that the Minister is very enthusiastic for the new plans for the railways, but overpromising and failing to deliver does undermine people's confidence.

I'm trying to be constructive in this debate and build an argument for why we're going to see transformation. I didn't use the word 'overpromising'. What I said was that the initial expectations for the service were raised high, so that people expected an immediate transformation. That clearly was never the plan. So, there was never an overpromise, but expectations for the service were higher than may be realistic, and I think that's what you're politically playing on today.

Okay, well I take the two words—there was overpromising, it was oversold. I agree, there was an over-promise on what could be delivered and you said that there was not enough delivery on that. We'll get together and we'll go through the Cofnod together and review what you said in your speech, but I'm quite confident in the notes that I've written here.

But this is about accountability. It's about holding the Government to account and making sure that now it takes action to make sure that we don't have to take these Pacers out of service at the end of the year, which, as we know, would mean transport chaos, especially in the south-east of Wales, but also in other parts of Wales too.

The proposal is to agree the motion without amendment. Does any Member object? [Objection.] I will defer voting until voting time. 

Voting deferred until voting time.