Item 6 this afternoon is the statement by the Counsel General and Minister for the Constitution on justice in Wales, and I call on the Counsel General to make his statement. Mick Antoniw.

Thank you, Dirprwy Lywydd. A fair and effective justice system and the rule of law are the cornerstones of our parliamentary democracy. As politicians, we make laws, but the adjudication of those laws must always be independent of politics. Today, I want to make a statement about how best we think we can best achieve that fair, effective, independent justice system, and social justice is at the heart of that. Although much of the work of operating the justice system is reserved, devolved agencies have crucial parts to play in its delivery. It is a public service like any other, but it's one that has to work hand in hand with education, health, social services, housing and others. Fair and effective delivery is dependent on the quality and consistency of the collaboration and long-term planning of all of these services.

As chair of the Cabinet sub-committee on justice, I see how much work goes into trying to achieve this. We owe a debt of gratitude to our police and those who work in our courts, our prisons and our probation services, as well as in our legal profession, the judiciary, the justice trade unions and many more besides.

I also want to reflect the personal efforts of the Minister for Social Justice, who sits with me on the Cabinet sub-committee, and has done so much to deliver strong and vital partnership working over the years. We were particularly pleased by the exceptional partnership working over COVID-19, where collaborative working was a vital component in keeping the courts operational and COVID secure.

The Llywydd took the Chair.

But despite all this, we know that our justice system could be so much better. Nobody here will have forgotten the words of Lord Thomas that the people of Wales are being let down by the justice system in its present state. The Thomas commission was, of course, an unprecedented examination of justice in Wales. While there is much we have done in response, there is much more to do.

Today we have published a document called 'Delivering Justice for Wales'. This publication is about both the present, the near future and the longer term. The purpose of the publication is to draw a line under the constitutional turf wars of the past and to stop asking the question, 'Who should run the justice system?' Instead, we ask what we need to do to deliver better justice in Wales.  

So, I don't want to rehearse past failings, but we need to recognise the scale of the challenges we face: an epidemic of violence against women; a shortfall of legal aid services when they are desperately needed, and many people, often the most vulnerable, denied access to the justice they deserve; minority ethnic communities whose relationship with the police is often fragile; and parts of our legal profession struggling to survive and the emergence of legal advice deserts in some of the poorest parts of Wales. The challenge for us is: what do we do about it? 

Today’s publication highlights some of the good collaborative work that is happening now. Even within the current restrictive arrangements, there are areas where we have managed to embed our person-centred approach to justice. Partner organisations have risen to the challenge where they can, such as the work on the youth justice and women's justice blueprints. I'm sure Members will welcome the announcement of a site for the pilot residential women's centre—the first time we'll be able to accommodate women given custodial sentences in Wales. The newly established Law Council of Wales should be another example of strong partnership working, to identify shared priorities for the legal sector as a whole, and to act collectively to address them.

The publication also sets out things we plan to do with our existing powers, such as legislating to build a structurally independent single-tier tribunal service. This will be a major milestone in Welsh justice, including our first ever appellate tier and an increased role for the president of Welsh Tribunals.

We want the publication to spark a conversation and engagement with people who have expertise in any aspect of justice, be they politicians, academics, practitioners, non-governmental organisations or people with personal experience of contact with the justice system. I should say that we did reach agreement with the UK Government to discuss those many Thomas commission recommendations that are currently reserved, but those conversations were slow to start, and they have, once again, stalled. The departures of first Robert Buckland as Lord Chancellor and then Lord Wolfson seem to have removed all impetus. And so, regrettably, we come to the conclusion once again that to achieve the scale of reform necessary, structural change is needed.

Perhaps most importantly, today’s publication shows how improving the traditional justice system cannot meaningfully be achieved without providing social justice. That means tackling society’s greatest challenges, including poverty and intergenerational inequality. It means tackling hate, racism, misogyny and discrimination. It requires early intervention and responding quickly, comprehensively and compassionately to childhood trauma and adverse experiences. Only through joining up policy on justice with the rest of Welsh policy making can we truly find effective ways of reducing crime, or indeed reducing the numbers of family breakdowns, or all the other causes of the immense pressures on our justice system. This is a fundamentally different model to improving the justice system and it needs to be joined up. The current sentencing policy, run from Whitehall, based heavily on punishment, deterrents and locking people up, is counter-productive and failing. So, we believe that the devolution of justice is not only necessary, but is inevitable and we have a duty to prepare for it. That is the second part of the conversation we want to spark today.

We know that the justice system, integrated with all the other vital public services, could deliver better outcomes for Wales. We know the principles that would guide us, and we set out in the publication some of the core components of that future service, but we don't have all the answers. Our plans for the future must be co-produced with all those elements of public services and the justice system. So, this is the start of a new conversation for change, reform and improvement that we want to kick off with today's publication. I hope that all Members will take an interest in this publication, and I hope we can all approach it in the spirit that is intended. We believe that the devolution of justice is not an end in itself, but it's a necessary reform. It is not a conversation about powers; it is a conversation about what will produce the best outcomes for Wales. We have the responsibility to deliver it as best we can for our communities and for the people of Wales. Diolch, Llywydd.

Commenting on its 'Delivering Justice for Wales' report yesterday, the Welsh Government described

'a distinct Welsh justice policy based on prevention through tackling social challenges and rehabilitation' and contrasted this with 'a more punitive approach' by the UK Government—a theme continued in the statement we've just heard, but didn't receive in advance. Why have you claimed this when the UK Government has stated repeatedly that it favours a policy based on prevention through tackling social challenges and rehabilitation? How do you respond to the UK Ministry of Justice's new 'Prisons Strategy White Paper' to rehabilitate offenders and cut crime, published in December? How has the Welsh Government engaged with the UK Ministry of Justice's victim strategy to align support for victims with the changing nature of crime? 

The UK Government published a female offender strategy to divert vulnerable female offenders away from short prison sentences wherever possible, invest in community services and establish five pilot residential women's centres, including one in Wales. Last week, as you've indicated, the Minister for Social Justice here wrote to Members stating that she has been working closely with the UK Ministry of Justice, and announcing that one of these centres would be near Swansea in south Wales, presumably because of her input. How will this help vulnerable women offenders in north, mid and west Wales to access the services they need closer to home? 

Last week, the UK Ministry of Justice announced its turnaround scheme, with £300 million over the next three years to support every council across Wales and England in catching and preventing youth offending earlier than ever, helping to stop these children and teenagers from moving on to further, more serious offending. How will the Welsh Government engage positively with this?

Of course the UK Government recognises that devolution has altered the legislative and policy context to policing and criminal justice in Wales, and has established a form of administrative devolution through Welsh offices, units or directorates based upon co-operation, on joint working, including HM Prison and Probation Service in Wales, Youth Justice Board Cymru and HM Courts and Tribunals Service Wales. So, how do you engage positively with these in pursuit of common agendas? It's clear from your statement that your colleague, certainly the social justice Minister, and, I presume, yourself are doing so.

Commenting yesterday, the Welsh Government stated that by joining up the justice system with the rest of Welsh policy making, we can find truly effective ways of reducing crime. However, what confidence can we have that alignment of policies and decisions about justice with this Welsh Government's devolved policy agenda will improve matters, when Wales has the highest proportion of children in the UK in care, and one of the highest proportions of children looked after by any state in the world? Public order crime in Wales is 132 per cent of the England and Wales figure—the highest rate out of eight regions; violent crime in Wales 106 per cent of the England and Wales figure, also the highest rate out of eight regions; Office for National Statistics figures to last June showed that north Wales had one of the highest rates of violence against the person and sexual offences per 1,000 people in the UK; a poll of 2,000 adults across 15 major UK cities found last September that Cardiff is the UK's most dangerous city where locals feel least safe; and the Wales Governance Centre reported in 2019 that Wales has the highest rate of imprisonment in western Europe, and although the total number of prison sentences rose in Wales between 2010 and 2017, they fell by 16 per cent in England. The report's author stated that wider research is needed to try to explain Wales's high rate of imprisonment. Is it therefore not the case that such a difference in delivery within what is a shared criminal justice system shows why the calls for devolution of criminal justice should not be answered?

Commenting yesterday, the Welsh Government stated that devolution must happen so all this money can be reinvested in meeting Wales's urgent needs. In reality, creating separate jurisdictions for Wales and for England would be unjustifiably costly and lead to significant duplication of functions. Why have you therefore conveniently ignored the Silk commission estimate that the devolution of policing and justice would cost a whopping £100 million a year? Instead, how do you respond to the statement at last October's Legal Wales conference by Lord Wolfson—and you did refer to him in your statement—then a UK justice Minister, and, as you indicated, no longer in that position? He said:

'we are aligned in our desire to continue to improve the way justice is delivered in Wales.'

The Ministry of Justice has also been examining the Thomas commission on justice report to see what can be taken forward to improve justice in Wales, and indeed is already undertaking work in relation to some of the commission's recommendations. He added that being part of the England and Wales jurisdiction has undeniably benefited Wales, making it a popular place to do business internationally. Noting your comments that, apparently, communication has broken down, how do you respond to the statement by a Ministry of Justice spokesperson only yesterday that:

'We are continuing to work closely with the Welsh Government to deliver justice in Wales, including the joint work on supporting women and young people, and taking forward some of the recommendations of the Thomas Commission'?

To conclude, given that senior police officers told me during my visit to the north-west regional organised crime unit that: all north Wales emergency planning is done with north-west England; 95 per cent or more of crime in north Wales is local or operates on a cross-border east-west basis; North Wales Police have no significant operations working on an all-Wales basis; and that evidence given to the Thomas commission by the chief constables and police and crime commissioners in Wales then was largely ignored in the commission's report, why do you think that the Thomas commission on justice report only includes a single reference to any cross-border criminality in the context of county lines, and that the solution it proposes is joint working across the four Welsh forces in collaboration with other agencies, but no reference to partners across the border, with whom most of the work is actually being done?

Can I thank the Member for the very substantial number of questions and points he's raised? Can I just perhaps start by saying I do hope, of course, that when he's had an opportunity to consider what is a very, very detailed report, there will be an opening of, I believe, a less knee-jerk discussion of some of the broader issues around justice within Wales.

But can I thank the Member in particular for quite a number of his comments? As you were getting towards the end of your contribution and questions, it actually seemed clear to me that you were actually making the case for the devolution of justice. I think when we talk about some of the points that lie behind that, and some of the issues that, of course, have impacted so much on justice, and why all the issues around the delivery of justice in the broader sense are of such importance to us in terms of reform and change, let's just summarise where much of the justice system is.

We've had substantial cuts in police numbers, and the police numbers and funding are still low in real terms, and below what they were in 2010. There's been the closure of 600 courts around the UK, and a large number of courts within Wales, which has almost brought an end to the concept of local justice. There have been enormous cuts in legal aid—and even now we do not have a full commitment to the implementation of even the limited recommendations of Lord Bellamy—which limit access to justice.

We've had cuts in the investment in courts. You talked a little bit about the international legal economy—can I just say that the discussions that myself and others have had with the UK Government over the state of the civil justice centre in Cardiff have absolutely got nowhere? The state of that court, in a capital city, in an environment where we want to see the legal economy in Wales grow, is an absolute disgrace, and the total failure of the Ministry of Justice to give any attention whatsoever to justice in the capital city, in the civil justice centre, and the investment that is needed, would not happen in a devolved justice system, because we would not be allowed to get away with it. There's the creation of advice deserts, the increasing prison population, the increasing levels of violent crime and knife crime, the increasing pressure on the justice system. I have to say to the Member that his response, to some extent, is really a head-in-the-sand response—one that does not address all the issues that are raised within the paper.

We see the issue of the devolution of justice or the need for reform and change in justice as not being about who controls what, but how can we deliver it better. When you set it against that background of total failure within the justice system—a crumbling justice system—then we have to look to reform. One thing is very clear, if we just take the examples of youth justice and probation, the need for their integration with all those devolved policy responsibilities that we have is just logical. It makes absolute sense.

I very much welcome the co-operation that is taking place with the Ministry of Justice—inconsistent co-operation. We never know from one year to the next where we might go. But it's thanks to my colleague Jane Hutt that we actually have the women's residential centre in Cardiff coming to fruition. This has not happened as a result of some willingness of the Ministry of Justice; it's thanks to Jane Hutt, and in fact to other former Welsh Government Ministers. So, yes, we work with the UK Government on these issues, and we co-operate, but the issue that comes out of this paper, as I'm sure you'll agree once you've had the chance to absorb it all, is that we could do so much better, and we need radical reform.

Cwnsler Cyffredinol, I'd like to congratulate the Welsh Government for producing their vision of what a justice system should look like in Wales. I know that we have in the Minister for Social Justice and in you as Cwnsler Cyffredinol two strong advocates for a better justice system for the people of Wales. However, I have some sympathy with my friend Mark Isherwood for using the same old arguments that we hear him saying every time. Sometimes it's like bingo, isn't it? I was just waiting for them to come out. Because in fairness, it is a very long document, and could I suggest maybe perhaps a little bit too long, Cwnsler Cyffredinol? I was pleased to see that you were inviting comments and engagement from the profession and the public in the document, but can I suggest that perhaps in a document of 161 pages, you probably won't have much engagement from the public, and maybe it doesn't need to be that long? For instance, there's a full page on Flying Start, a 16-year-old programme, in a document about justice; do we really need a document so long?

Personally, I was hoping for more of a blueprint on how do we get there, how do we get justice devolved, and a firm timetable on how to improve those areas that are already devolved. Despite his current anti-devolution rhetoric, we know that Boris Johnson is not actually opposed to devolution. He wanted more powers over the criminal justice system whilst Mayor of London. There's no ideology behind that. We all know if it suits Boris Johnson in the future to have justice devolved, then he'll devolve it straight away, no matter what Mark Isherwood says time and time again. And hopefully, this rediscovery of the Conservatives' Welshness at their recent party conference will go beyond just asking for an additional bank holiday, and will include devolution parity across the United Kingdom. We can only hope, in any event. 

Justice might be devolved quicker than we think. Things might happen very quickly. How ready is the Welsh Government for the devolution of justice? In the report, as I mentioned, there is no suggested timetable for the devolution of justice; it just says this: 

'The process of designing the vision will...be taken forward incrementally.'

Well, what does that mean? How would you like to see justice devolved, Cwnsler Cyffredinol? 

I've had to learn a lot of things in my first year in this place, and I've learnt all these fantastic new words—'optics', for example, meant something completely different to me a year ago, and I had no idea what a 'deep dive' was before coming here. Well, fortunately, those words aren't included in these documents, but we have some other lovely buzzwords in here. We have 'explore' coming up, and 'look' coming up. It doesn't provide a detailed breakdown of when or who will make things happen, but we have 'explore' at least 21 times, 'look' is included 14 times. And a phrase like 'explore radical reform', well, it sounds brilliant, doesn't it, but what does 'explore radical reform' actually mean? How will we get to that radical reform?

Another word that came over often in the document, which caused me some concern, was the word 'partnership'. I know 'partnership' is another buzzword when it comes to Welsh Government; it came up 65 times in this document. And, of course, partnership here means working with Welsh Government, rather than partnership as is usually meant with Welsh Government. But, do we really want to concentrate on partnership with the UK Government? It doesn't go any way to solve the complexity of the justice system. It doesn't solve this jagged edge. Shouldn't we be emphasising instead time and time again that we need justice devolved here, rather than this partnership with the UK Government? 

I congratulate the announcement of the women's centre, but it does concern me that it won't be up and running until at least 2024. It's a five-year pilot only including women in the Swansea area, and I do really hope this will be an alternative to custody—that women that would have been sent to custody are sent there, instead of just being another community order. Another example that you gave about partnership was the much-needed Law Council of Wales. However, I am concerned about the council and I raised it when Lord Lloyd-Jones came in front of our Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee. It receives no funding at all, and it's reliant on very busy volunteers and the generosity of the Law Society. What plans do you have to ensure that the law council can continue its important work? 

And finally, I was disappointed not to see any firm timetable on the implementation of the Law Commission's report into Welsh tribunals. The broad and general recommendations have been known to all of us since December 2020, and I know you agree with me, Cwnsler Cyffredinol, that, through Welsh tribunals, we really do have an opportunity to build a fair and accessible justice system here in Wales. This is within our power and the power of Welsh Government and this place. It's so exciting to be able to create the first appellate system here in Wales for many years. So, when will we see the implementation of the Law Commission's recommendations on Welsh tribunals? Diolch yn fawr. 

I thank the Member for, again, the variety of comments. I also didn't know what 'deep dive' meant when I came here, and I managed to bluff it through for a while and eventually found out. Also, when the term 'challenging' is used, it means pretty well impossible. [Laughter.] It reminded me a little bit of when Prince Philip attended one of the Senedd openings, and there was a conversation and someone asked him about how he managed to have conversations with everyone and knew what to say. He said, 'Well, I just find as long as I stick "community" and "sustainability" into it that seems to do the trick.' So, that's a very valid point.

I think one of the starting points, of course, is that—you raised this—it's a very long document, and I agree with that. It could have been, actually, a lot longer, and I hope that the Member has seen the 'Delivering Justice for Wales: Summary and Work Programme' as well, which is a lot shorter. I think what we decided was really important was that we needed to actually present a picture of everything that is actually happening. If we're going to talk about justice, legislative justice, the justice system and social justice, we needed to be able to present a comprehensive picture to engage in a subsequent debate that takes place, because in many ways this is about hearts and minds, and it is about having a proper debate. In order for that to happen, all those various parts of the social justice and the justice system need to be engaged, as does indeed civic society. And I agree with you. Most people will never read the full thing, but they may read the bits that are relevant to them, and there will be those for whom it is important to have that overall picture.

So, I think, for the first time, we have a picture of what is actually happening in justice in Wales. We have a picture of those areas where I, working alongside the Minister for Social Justice, have actually been engaging in a wide range of areas, and to the Member's credit, the progress that is being made and the importance of it is something that we cannot ignore. So, that co-operation is very, very relevant and something that has to go on, and has resulted in improvements. The problem is, those improvements are limited. We're working in a system where it's almost as though you're being held back from doing the things and fulfilling the things you want to do. So, the drug and alcohol court, which we are sponsoring or contributing towards, in Cardiff—a very important development of a problem-solving court—we may well want to roll that out and roll it our quickly. We don't want to have to wait for a decision in London as to whether it's appropriate and whether it fits in within a plan there, because it is likely that it fits in exactly within the sorts of measures that we are taking, in devolved responsibilities in terms of housing, education, social services and so on.

The other issue, of course, is that—. Why do I say 'hearts and minds'? It's because getting justice devolved, per se, is not an easy process. I think, to some extent, it will be incremental, and the timetabling of it isn't necessarily within our hands. It is about showing a way of making justice being delivered in Wales better, and I think there are, equally, lessons here that apply to England. You referred to London—that's absolutely right. There are real benefits to reforming the justice system and the way that's delivered and co-ordinated in England as well.

Now, in terms of tribunals, of course the First Minister will in due course be making a statement in terms of the legislative programme, but I hope in this paper we've made it pretty clear that the recommendations of the Law Commission are ones that we intend to legislate on and to implement, and, of course, in terms of the increased role that we foresee for the president of tribunals. So, I just perhaps beg to ask for a little bit of patience on it, but it will be addressed, and you are absolutely right, it will be the most significant and historic change in the Welsh justice system, probably for centuries—the first time we will have ever had an appellate structure, and the potential for that to become an embryonic for change and so on.

In terms of the Law Council of Wales, well, of course, firstly, it has just been set up. I very much do welcome the support that's been given by the Law Society, which is enabling it to happen. It is, of course, independent of Welsh Government. I've attended the first three meetings, because I believe it is fundamentally important to be supporting it, to be talking about all these issues and what Welsh Government is doing, and I think the law council itself will at some stage decide what it needs to actually go into its next stage of development. I will certainly be listening very carefully to anything that they ask or any recommendations that they particularly make, but it's very important that it comes from them, rather than coming from Welsh Government itself. I hope I answered most of your points. Thank you.

The only sustainable way to improve the justice system is to reduce the number of people coming into contact with it. That's what you said, Mick Antoniw, and I completely agree with that, and we need to start with children, because we've still got nearly 18,000 children every year experiencing the trauma of their mother being sent to prison, which is 'nothing short of catastrophic'—the words of Baroness Corston, who 15 years ago wrote the seminal report that everybody agreed at the time was the way forward for women in the criminal justice system, and here we are, still talking about it. But thanks very much to Jane Hutt and others, who are actually endeavouring to make progress on this, so we do actually have a pilot women's centre in Swansea, and if it works, then we'll have one in north Wales and west Wales as well. But we certainly can't go on the way we are at the moment, because the system is completely broken. It's a national disgrace, the levels of recidivism, and should we be surprised? Rehabilitation is impossible if prisoners are locked up 23 hours a day and if every time there is a Minister who expresses a glimmer of attempt at reform, they get moved on. That's also my experience of the prison service when I tried to work with them in a former life.

So, we really do have to get on with this and it is disappointing to hear in the discourse you've already had with other Members that it's going to be 2024 before we're going to see any change, because the evidence is overwhelming that the vast majority of women have suffered trauma and need support and rehabilitation to put their lives back together again, and not have the disruption of their children being separated from them and losing their homes. And we need to learn from other Scandinavian countries where people go to prison and their families go with them: the families go about their normal lives, go to school, go to work, and they themselves have to work during the week, and then they are in prison at the weekend. That is their punishment, and that seems to me a much more effective way of ensuring people are punished when they do something wrong, but are not so disrupted that they never manage to put their lives back together.

So, the 2021 concordat said that there was going to be a great deal of work done on ensuring that the women's estate and everybody who came into contact with women would be trauma informed. And I just wondered: the deadline was set for January 2022 at that time; could you tell us what progress has been made on that?

Firstly, thank you for those comments. They very much agree with all the sentiments that you have expressed and, of course, the importance of the developments that have been taking place and the engagements that are there, but also how much further we actually have to go.

In terms of your last point, in terms of the progress that's being made, what I can say is that I'm engaging on a very regular basis with the Minister for Social Justice, and we work through these in terms of our respective portfolios. I'll come back to you in terms of perhaps some more detail on that. But also to say that, of course, part of the purpose of this paper is about this isn't a sort of 'end of the road' or 'this is where we are' et cetera. This is actually where we're starting from in terms of where we want to go.

Can I add one thing that probably I didn't mention properly in response to, again, Mark Isherwood, but is to some extent relevant, and that is in terms of the issue of policing? Can I say how much I welcome the actual co-operative work that has been taking place between the police and Welsh Government and agencies, and between the police and crime commissioners, because many of the joint efforts that are taking place, the joint work, and some of the progress that's been made, has actually been a direct result of that co-operation? So, it's actually showing things that are happening.

And can I also say, I very much welcome the statement that has come from the police and crime commissioners today in response, which is actually supportive of the devolution of justice, and indeed supportive of the devolution of policing? So, the four elected police and crime commissioners, a position that was created by a Conservative Government to reflect and to input into policing in communities, have come out 100 per cent in support, I believe, of the direction of where we're going. I think the argument in terms of cross-border—it hasn't impacted in terms of Northern Ireland, it hasn't impacted in terms of Scotland, there's no reason why those issues shouldn't equally apply within Wales. Cross-border working takes place in all sorts of areas, devolved and non-devolved. It takes place in the health service, which is devolved on cross border, so I don't think those are valid issues. But I think we really should pay attention to, effectively, the democratic elected voice of the police and crime commissioners, and also to welcome the fact that the police federation themselves see no reason why justice should not be devolved. Their position has developed over the years and again, I believe, is a very positive one.

First of all, can I welcome both the statement and also the accompanying 160-odd pages? I haven't done any word counts in there, but we are looking forward, as a committee, to getting our teeth into this as well. I welcome the focus that both you and the Minister for Social Justice are bringing to this now; it's really welcome indeed.

Just to touch on a couple of issues. During the consideration of justice matters within our broad remit, we've heard evidence relevant to the further devolution of powers on justice in Wales and, indeed, policing. I note the comments made by yourself but also the previous speakers from Plaid Cymru and the Conservative benches who, in different ways, made both the case for devolution of justice. But in November last year, Lord Thomas of Cwmgiedd, the former chair of the Commission on Justice in Wales, brought to our attention several areas where the administration of justice in Wales could be improved. The importance, for example, of having an institutional infrastructure for justice in Wales and developing various all-Wales bodies, particularly all-Wales criminal justice and all-Wales family justice boards, as both crime and family issues are so very important in Wales. So, if the Minister could helpfully expand on that.

Another key point he made was that this closer co-ordination between justice and other parts of Government, which the Counsel General has touched on in his statement today, in particular in health and education. He indicated that it would be easier to achieve that co-ordination if justice had been devolved to Wales, but in the absence of this, Minister, what more can be done—that practical collaboration you were talking about on youth justice and women's justice, and also things like the drug and alcohol court as well?

One of the final remarks Lord Thomas made during our session was in relation to civil justice. He noted that there isn't a proper civil court centre in Wales. He felt that the Cardiff Civil Justice Centre is substandard, and he hoped that the Welsh Government and the Ministry of Justice can work to give us what we properly need in this respect and what the capital city actually deserves as well.

Counsel General, we're looking at broader justice issues. We had a recent evidence session with the Law Council of Wales. We're engaging with legal practitioners on the challenges they face. We will publish a summary of our engagement very soon, which might be helpful to you, and, of course, we've engaged with you as well, and the First Minister, on the justice-related spending. So, just to turn to a couple of things here. Are you confident that you have the capacity to deliver some of these outcomes here in Wales, in particular if legislation is necessary as well in relation to the single-tier tribunal system, for example? How will you evaluate your outcomes for your justice work against spending? It's something we've touched upon in correspondence. And finally, how are you going to report back here to progress on these matters as well? But we really welcome the focus that you've given to these issues—long overdue and thoroughly welcome.

Well, thank you for a number of those questions. I read with interest the evidence session of Lord Thomas with your committee, the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee, because it is something that is of direct interest. I think the one thing that is important is, of course, the all-Wales bodies that were discussed some time back by the Thomas commission. Of course, many of those in the areas of crime and family justice are, in fact, now in development, established or operating. So, there is already a move and a change scenario within the justice system. So, change has been taking place.

You raise the issue in terms of the need for ongoing co-ordination of health, education, social services, housing and so on, and, of course, that is happening to a degree. The point we keep making is, of course, it is not an integrated part of a comprehensive justice system. It is picking and choosing bits and pieces that we can try and intervene in, rather than looking comprehensively over the long term and planning, rather than the whims of changing Governments or changing Ministers from time to time. And, of course, the clearer areas in terms of the areas of probation, police, problem-solving courts—the things that we would want to do to try and restore local justice, but also, increasingly, to give access to justice.

The civil justice centre issue—the Minister for Social Justice and I met with the Lord Chancellor. I think the best we had out of discussions that we've had is basically that the civil justice centre was going to get its lift repaired and possibly a water fountain. Quite frankly, I think the approach to the civil justice centre, when you look at the importance of courts, of commercial work and property work to the legal economy, when you look at centres of justice like Bristol, Manchester, and you look at London and you look at Edinburgh and, indeed, you look at Northern Ireland, all you can say is that what we have within Wales is recognised as a disgrace, but there does not appear to be any motivation or intention to do anything about it. Lord Wolfson was sympathetic, but it was quite clear that nothing was there. And I'll say this: when we're looking at the billions of pounds that are looking to be spent on refurbishing Westminster, you know, well, perhaps just a small amount of something like that coming to actually have a decent justice centre in the capital city of one of the nations of the UK would be quite important.

In terms of the legislation on tribunals, of course, the work of the Law Commission has been absolutely invaluable. Obviously, it's still being analysed and considered very carefully and, of course, further statements in due course on the legislative programme will be there. But I think that it is something that we do have to do, and that's why it was important that it was within that.

In terms of the evaluation, clearly, things that we want to do need to be evidence based and there are real issues, which are acknowledged throughout, in terms of the disaggregation of data, having proper data on which we can actually formulate policy as it applies to Wales, and isn't it a disgrace that that actually doesn't exist at the moment, that we have to basically look for various sources of trying to extract data in order to assess and evaluate justice policies? So, that is something that is being looked at very carefully in terms of how that can be improved, and there are measures already developing in terms of acquiring that data, but it should not be the case that it is a sort of add-on possibility, rather than something that goes to the core of policy.

And in reporting back, as I've said, the paper is about a conversation. This is not going away and it's something that I hope to be reporting on on a very regular basis, not least of all to the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee.

Finally, Joyce Watson.

I welcome, of course, this statement today. I want to focus particularly on three areas that I think are critical to any justice system. The first is ensuring the separation of the justice system from any political interference or influence. And, of course, that's playing out in Westminster, as we speak. That is hugely important if people are going to have faith in the system: first in setting that system up and, secondly, in accessing the system if they need to.

Secondly, ensuring equal access to justice, and I'm talking about two types of access here: (1) in terms of affordability—. We know what happened to legal aid and we know what happened, therefore, to people's right, and I do believe that it's a human right, to access justice, being denied simply because they didn't have the finance to do that. And in the same vein, equal access has to be in terms of the physical access, the ability to access justice close to home, should you need it. And again, under human rights, people have enshrined in human rights the right to access justice. And we know—you mentioned it—the number of courts that have been closed. I don't imagine that they're going to be reopened, so we have to look at other means for people to access justice, and there are technical possibilities there that need to be invested in.

And finally from me, we have to follow a Welsh-specific path. We have to focus on why people find themselves in the criminal justice system—and you've talked about social justice—in the first place, and put in some prevention very, very early on. And Jenny quite rightly mentioned children; I would have mentioned children in terms of adverse childhood experiences, which play a critical part, and they are there in large numbers within the criminal justice system. So, prevention is also a huge part of this. So, stop people becoming victims in the first place, and perpetrators in the second.

So, I welcome this. There's a lot to be done. I was going to ask the question that Huw did—whether we have the ability to deliver this in terms of all that we're going to need going forward—so, I won't repeat that one. But, you know, we did look at what happens if you don't take the criminal justice system and if you start removing some of it out from fairness—and we only have to look at the probation service and the privatisation of that to see what a disaster that was. So, that's why I started where I did, and that's why I'm finishing where I'm finishing. Thank you.

I thank the Member for the comments. The first point you raise is actually a very fundamental one and perhaps, on reflection, I should have made more emphasis of it. It is absolutely vital and essential that we uphold and maintain the independence of Government of the judiciary and of the court system, and any Welsh system and aspects of a Welsh system will uphold those principles. One of the key issues, again within tribunal development, will be to ensure that is it, that our tribunal system, our embryonic justice system, is not an agency of Government, but is a body that is completely independent of Government in the way it operates. That does not contradict the concept and the role in terms of how justice is actually delivered and how justice actually engages.

You raise valid points in terms of legal aid, and, of course, we have tried to ameliorate the impact of the legal aid cuts with the single advice fund. But you're absolutely right, there are two aspects to it: one is access to legal advice and legal support for those who need it; the other is the availability of those lawyers and advice workers who are capable of actually giving that support. And the fact is that, in some of our poorest communities and our rural communities, there is an increasing desert of availability, and that is why the developing of the Welsh legal economy is so important and why we are looking at things like apprenticeships and the way in which we might actually give further support to those particular firms, because they have a vital role to do as well. And, in fact, the role of those legal aid lawyers in communities is massively undervalued and under-represented when we talk about the justice system.

You talked about virtual courts, and, of course, to some extent we have had the development of that during the COVID situation. They are not a substitute for everybody, and we have to be very aware of the potential inequalities that arise. We know that something like seven per cent of over-16s do not have digital access. Twenty-five per cent of many of our communities do not have adequate digital skills. So, we have to ensure that, where appropriate, and where virtual courts can take place—. And that has been developed, to some extent, within our tribunal system—that is a good thing and a progressive thing, but it is not something that on its own can solve the issues of access. So, the equality issue has to be considered very, very carefully within that development, and I know the Member has spoken about that in the past. You're absolutely right in terms of the issue you raise in terms of early intervention and the importance of that within the broader social and justice system.

And in terms of resources, let's say this: isn't it about time we stopped investing in failure and started actually investing in prevention, in engagement and co-operation? What we have at the moment is enormous amounts of money being spent on a system that is failing, on a prison system that doesn't work, that doesn't achieve et cetera. You just think how much more effectively those resources could be used with a different direction in terms of social and justice policy. Diolch.

I thank the Counsel General for that statement. And that brings our proceedings to a close.

The meeting ended at 17:24.