Item 5 this afternoon is a debate on the Climate Change, Environment, and Infrastructure Committee report, 'The future of bus and rail in Wales'. I call on the Chair of the committee to move the motion. Llyr Gruffydd.

Motion NDM8180 Llyr Gruffydd

To propose that the Senedd:

Notes the Climate Change, Environment and Infrastructure Committee report, 'The future of bus and rail in Wales', laid on 6 October 2022.

Motion moved.

Thank you very much, Dirprwy Lywydd. I'm pleased to be able to open this debate today, and I'd like to start by thanking all the stakeholders and members of the public who contributed to the committee's work. I'm also pleased, of course, that the Minister has accepted all but one of our recommendations, but we'll get to that later

This report comes in two parts. Part 1 reflects the committee’s annual scrutiny session with Transport for Wales, and part 2 covers broader issues concerning the recovery of bus and rail services in Wales post COVID-19. It's therefore a wide-ranging report, and I won't have time to do more than touch on some of the more critical issues as I open this debate today.

First, I want to talk about our scrutiny of Transport for Wales. The committee had concerns about several aspects of the governance arrangements in Transport for Wales. This mainly concerned the publication of business and financial plans and, consequently, the organisation's transparency. To be fair, the COVID pandemic period was a challenging time for Transport for Wales. We were told that its budget during this period was very much in flux and was changing almost weekly. It seems churlish to criticise the organisation for not publishing business and financial plans in this context perhaps. But having said that, they are fundamental tools to assess how well Transport for Wales performs against its remit and whether it delivers value for money. One of our recommendations was therefore that Transport for Wales should get its house in order. From this year onwards, it should publish business and financial plans before the start of each financial year.

There have been historic problems with the presentation of Transport for Wales's budget allocations, making it almost impossible to scrutinise how much money is being allocated and for what purpose. Again, we had some sympathy with Transport for Wales. The chief executive told us that the budget-setting process could involve as many as 25 bilateral discussions with different Welsh Government budget holders. This seems terribly bureaucratic to us as a committee. Openness and transparency should be fundamental principles for public organisations such as Transport for Wales, and streamlining this process would in our view help in that regard.

I'm grateful that the Welsh Government accepted all the recommendations in part 1 of our report and that Transport for Wales are therefore to take them forward. Since the publication of the report, we've seen good progress in the areas of governance and transparency. We will be holding our annual scrutiny session with Transport for Wales later this year and, of course, will return to these issues to see whether the situation has improved.

The second part of our report covers the broader issue, as I was saying, of bus and rail recovery after the COVID pandemic. On behalf of the committee I would particularly like to thank the members of the public who fed into the committee's work through the various focus groups and interviews held across Wales on this issue. The pandemic had a massive impact on the numbers using public transport. Many people were scared to get on the bus or the train. There were reductions in services, and those in the poorest areas, by the way, were the hardest hit in that regard. But many of the fundamental changes we saw during the pandemic, such as online shopping and the increasing prevalence of working from home, were becoming far more common in our society pre pandemic. But of course it’s become far more usual now for people, as I say, to work from home and so on.

Bus and rail services are critical not only in order for us to meet our climate change targets in Wales, but also to create a society where people can easily access the services, education and work they need for a full life. So, the question for us as a committee was, of course: what needs to be done to encourage more people to use public transport? Our report, as you would expect, considers many of these issues.

Achieving modal shift must be at the core of this work. First, we need to understand what kind of public transport people want and how they want to use it. How permanent are the changes we saw during the pandemic and since, and what will future patterns look like? I’m pleased that the Deputy Minister has accepted all of our recommendations in this area. I was also pleased to see that the Deputy Minister referred to a national travel survey for Wales in his response. I would be grateful if he could tell us more, perhaps, about the survey and how it will be used to influence future policy and budget decisions, when he responds to this debate.

Secondly, we need to base policies on suitable targets. The Welsh Government's transport strategy and net-zero plan set modal shift targets. For example, 7 per cent of trips should be made by public transport by 2030, and that should increase to 13 per cent by 2040. These are stretching targets, and I’m certainly not going to criticise the Deputy Minister for showing ambition in this area, but too many of our stakeholders questioned whether the current public transport offer is good enough to put us on the right trajectory to reach the 2030 target.

We need to make it easy, and easier, for people to leave the car at home and take the bus or the train instead. We know from our work with stakeholders that cost, convenience and access to services are the three priority areas for users. We can discuss the intricacies of behaviour change as much as we like, but addressing those three points would certainly be a good start.

I had the pleasure earlier today of speaking at the launch of the Confederation of Passenger Transport Cymru’s report about encouraging car users to switch to bus and coach. It is notable, by the way, that very similar issues are raised in our report and the report published this afternoon.

On the cost of public transport, transport poverty was a particular concern for us as a committee. Transport poverty affects some demographic groups disproportionately, including disabled people, older people and women. One of our recommendations was that the Welsh Government should provide subsidised fare pricing and other aspects of financial support. I would like to hear more from the Deputy Minister on the latest position on these proposals.

Delivering an integrated transport network that people can easily access when they need to, and which is affordable, will not be easy. For a start, we know that it will take substantial investment. Members will all be aware of the historical underfunding of rail infrastructure in Wales. How can we develop an integrated transport system if we don’t have proper investment in rail infrastructure? And I’m pleased that the Deputy Minister recognises the case for the full devolution of responsibility for rail, and for ensuring that the UK Government does allocate fair funding. In the face of decisions like those we saw in the context of HS2 and the fact that the UK Government has apparently refused to even consider an appropriate funding solution for Wales, it's difficult to disagree with the case for devolution.

On funding for buses, the current Welsh Government policy is for 50 per cent of the most polluting service buses to be replaced by a zero-tailpipe-emission bus fleet by 2028, and for all taxis and private-hire vehicles to be zero emission by 2028—the same year. Now, the cost of decarbonising the bus sector will be high, and the sector will need financial support to deliver that. The Deputy Minister has said that delivery plans are being prepared to meet the targets set out in Net Zero Wales, and I'd be grateful if he could tell us more about that in his response.

Dirprwy Lywydd, as I said at the outset, this is a wide-ranging report, and I have not been able to cover all issues in my contribution. It's possible that other Members will have an opportunity to focus on some of those. But I want to conclude by saying that the next few years will be exciting for bus and rail. The bus reform Bill offers a significant opportunity to improve bus services in Wales and, most importantly, to ensure that they are more customer focused. There is also progress on metro schemes, and there's a major piece of work for us to do as a committee in keeping an eye on developments in that area. But although progress is being made, we do need to ask that same old question: is that progress happening swiftly enough? The broader financial context has made it more difficult to reach the Government's net-zero transport targets, but all I will say in concluding the first contribution to this debate is that, as a committee, we will certainly continue to assess progress and to report back to the Senedd on it. Thank you. 

First off, I'd like to thank the Chairman, my fellow committee members, as well as all the panelists and staff who supported us in our work on this report. Now, between the pandemic, strike action and the cost-of-living crisis, public transport in Wales and across the UK is facing a wide variety of challenges. This means it's even more important than ever for the Welsh Government to deliver a joined-up sustainable plan for bus and rail companies. It's also important to look ahead to the future. Recommendation 6 of the report states that 

'The Welsh Government should provide an update on the work it is undertaking with other partners to understand future travel patterns...and their impact'.

I know that my colleague Natasha Asghar will have more to say on the scrutiny of Transport for Wales, but as shadow Minister for climate change, I'd like to reiterate how important public transport by rail and bus is to meeting our environmental targets. If the Welsh Government wants to meet Wales's net-zero obligations, people need access to travel that is both reliable and affordable. Only this morning we were talking about the road scheme having been stopped by the Deputy Minister. That's all well and good if you've got the public transport infrastructure in place, and sadly we don't have that in Wales.

Access to public transport, particularly bus travel, is essential to address social deprivation and mobility. University of South Wales research found that the most deprived areas saw the greatest decline in access to services due to the pandemic. Evidence from Transport for Wales shows that 13 per cent of Welsh households don't even have access to a car, and 25 per cent of bus users have a disability or a long-term illness. So, the Welsh Government, Minister and Deputy Minister, need to consider what can be done to help our most vulnerable, often living in quite socially isolated areas. The current cost-of-living crisis cannot result in those who are struggling losing their access to public transport. 

Recommendation 15 states that 

'The Welsh Government should set out what assessment it has made of the impact of energy costs and the cost-of-living crisis on its modal shift targets.'

As we mentioned in the report, the UK Government has already moved to cap bus fares outside of London at £2. Silviya Barrett confirmed that bus services in Wales declined by 45 per cent in the 10 years between 2011-12 and 2020-21, but in that last year, between March 2020 and March 2021, which was the first year of the pandemic, the cuts were 36 per cent. According to Joe Rossiter, the reduction of rail and bus services has had a significant impact on our rural communities and—this is the crux of the issue—not everyone is being affected equally by the reduction in services. People in remote and rural communities will disproportionately feel the impacts of reductions in service. And as we note in the report, there are risks that the proposed franchising system outlined in the bus reform Bill could actually close out smaller operators. These operators, particularly in rural Wales, are well placed to understand the needs of their local communities and respond to changes in demand. Certainly in my constituency, we have Llew Jones, who's a small bus operator, and he really works with the community and the passengers. We've also got now the introduction of the Fflecsi bus service, and that's proving to be a really worthwhile scheme.

We agree with the suggestion that the Bill should include provision to ensure that smaller companies can participate in the franchising process. We're pleased that the White Paper acknowledges this and includes proposals for addressing it. However, we do need to emphasise that the process should be designed in such a way as to minimise the cost of submitting bids for those smaller operators. Whilst I appreciate the financial constraints, there is more that could be done with the organisations that are already in place. In particular, we've seen clear evidence of a lack of co-ordination in delivering transport between different local authorities. Josh Miles believed that ‘Bws Cymru’ has lots of the right areas in it, but his main concern was that some of the underpinning elements of the strategy were simply not being delivered. He said there needs to be a focus on delivery, and that

'Local authorities don't have much by way of staff or resources to be able to put into the process at the moment.... So, there are just a lot of things going on and we haven't quite got the coherence or the investment to deliver things yet'.

Comments made by our witnesses such as these highlight that a lack of joined-up thinking can impact transport policy. It’s something that the report's already identified and we need to seek to address. I appreciate that some of these views have been taken on board. The reputation, consistency and reliability of public transport—

Janet, can you conclude now, please?

—all need to improve if we are to return to public transport, as per recommendation 7. Diolch.

Professor Mark Barry, who was one of our witnesses, and who's a transport expert, told us that Wales has been poorly served by the rail industry ecosystem for the last 30 to 40 years in terms of investment and enhancement funding. That takes us back to roughly 1980, so this is a problem of both Conservative and Labour administrations. However, the current UK Government seems to be very difficult to follow in terms of the logic of any of their arguments. To argue that the £52 billion HS2 investment should not generate any consequential for Wales is really absolute gobbledygook. It makes it very difficult to work out whether or not we're going to be able to have a grown-up relationship with them, because, regardless of that futile argument, they have yet to upgrade the infrastructure on the east-west main rail line. That is of particular concern to the area I represent, because the Burns plan for the south-east Wales metro assumes that two of the four rail lines that run east to west will be the spine of that proposal. The economy Minister was unable to elucidate us in any shape or form yesterday, so I'd be grateful if the Deputy Minister could indicate whether there's been any glimmer of light as to whether the Rishi Sunak Government is taking this issue more seriously. Because it really is a justice issue, as well as something that should be given his attention if he wants to hold the UK together. So, that is absolutely key for me.

I think the other issue is around the bus industry. I'm very glad to hear from Janet Finch-Saunders that the Fflecsi buses are working up in north Wales. And that's really helpful, because it could be that that's a model for elsewhere where there's not such a concentration of people. I have to say that the investment that we've managed to secure in Cardiff and Newport for electric buses has hugely improved the air quality of the areas, because they're no longer belching out horrendous diesel. So, that really has been fantastic. Thank you to the Welsh Government, which has empowered local authorities to get on with claiming for what is available from the UK Government. That's something that other local authorities really need to to something more about. 

In terms of the really serious debate as to how we get people out of their cars and onto public transport, there's obviously a huge amount of work to be done. I heard that, at the seminar that was organised by the public transport organisation that Llyr took part in—I wasn't able to go—somebody suggested that pricing people out of using their cars was a non-starter because they would have to up the costs of running a car by more than £250 before people would stop using their cars and switch to public transport. I have to assume that that figure has well been passed, because insurance has gone up massively and petrol prices have gone up massively. For most people, it must have exceeded that £250. So, that is an opportunity for us, as well as a threat—[Interruption.] Yes. 

I accept the point you make, although I wouldn't go all the way down the brutality of that route. But pricing people out of a car only works where public transport is available. In places like the ones I represent, that public transport isn't available, so what you're doing is hammering the poorest and most vulnerable people. 

I accept that argument, Alun, and I think it's a well-made point. But I think, clearly, we've got to develop more services, and we can't hammer people. I would be in favour of using those fiscal levers as soon as there are those alternatives. Clearly, if you look at the Cardiff population, people do not need to bring their cars into the city centre, and, happily, it's increasingly more difficult for them to do so. I'm hoping that Cardiff Council will have the guts to raise significantly the price of city centre parking. People, futilely, queue to get into particular car parks at Christmastime, and it's just amazing—

This has almost become a conversation, but—

Time is also running out. 

—my constituents use those car parks, and your constituents who work in the city centre rely on my constituents using Cardiff as a local city. We don't have the opportunity to do anything except drive into Cardiff. We need that, and so the danger is you're creating a division between Cardiff and the Valleys. 

Thank you for your intervention, and you're completely wrong. You're wrong because—

Jenny, if you wish to answer the question and then close up, because time is going on. 

The park and ride system is absolutely excellent. It costs you £2 for the whole family and then you don't have all the sweat and bother of trying to find a car parking place. Those arrangements are available right around the city, so that is not an argument that I will accept. 

I think there's a lot more we need to do, but I also think we need to do a lot more to get people without cars able to get around, not just for their everyday journeys but also for leisure opportunities, to be able to go and visit Storey Arms. I do recall the free bus service that was started by the previous economy Minister, which enabled my constituents to get to Storey Arms for nothing on a Saturday. I'd be very keen to find out exactly what the outcome was of that, and whether we could do more things like that to make people understand that travelling by bus is a great opportunity. 

Thank you to the Chair and clerking team for their important work in this area. It's entirely clear—and it's become apparent as we listen to the debate—that bus and rail transport play a vital role as we strive to reach our climate change targets, and create a society where everyone can access the services that they need, be that in care, leisure, work, education, or anything else that's important to people's lives. However, at the moment, that is not possible for everyone. All too often, for many, public transport is neither affordable or frequent, and trains and buses don't go where people need them to go.

I welcome the Welsh Government’s target of seeing 45 per cent of journeys being made in a sustainable way by 2040. I would also ask whether that is sufficiently ambitious. Perhaps the increase of around 1 per cent per annum during the climate emergency doesn't really reflect the ambition that we need. What exactly is the Government doing, and what is planned, to facilitate people's efforts to make this shift? That's the core of the problem. We have a rail system that often grinds to a halt during heavy rain, or extreme heat, or if it's snowing—any sort of weather that's not frequent—and this is going to happen more and more often. What is normal is going to change. Trains are often late or cancelled, tickets are far too expensive, and working conditions of railway staff are declining as the economic impacts are felt. It's a kind of perfect storm.

It's important to be honest in politics, so I want to put on record that this isn’t all the Welsh Government’s fault. The heart of the problem—we've already heard this—is the Westminster Government that doesn’t care a jot about the people of Wales—a Government that underfunds our railways deliberately by denying us £5 billion in HS2 funding, for example, money the Welsh Government could use to transform our railways. As Jenny said, it's a gobbledegook decision. Decarbonising rail is another challenge for the Welsh Government. We need to improve rail infrastructure, improve grid storage, connectivity and capacity, and this is relevant to transport too. I would like to hear more from the Deputy Minister about progress in this area, as well as the next steps in terms of decarbonisation. 

Turning, finally, to accessibility, I asked the Minister about women’s safety on our railways last week. Since then, I have learnt that some councils, for example Newport, intend to turn off street lights overnight in order to save money. What are the implications of that for the safety of women who want to use public transport at night? What's the Government's view on that? 

In moving forward, improving people’s ability to use public transport is vital to tackle social inequality and people’s ability to travel. Again, this has already been raised. Bearing in mind that 13 per cent of households in Wales do not have a car, and 25 per cent of people who use buses have a disability or a long-term illness, as well as the fact that the most disadvantaged people saw the greatest decline in terms of people’s ability to access and use services, it is important that action happens now. What is clear is that we need a route to the provision of free public transport in future, starting with those in greatest need: young people, people in rural communities and those on low incomes. In the meantime—and I will conclude with this, Dirprwy Lywydd—will the Welsh Government bring forward plans to tackle transport poverty?

Thank you to the Chair, the committee members and the clerking team of the climate change committee for producing such a comprehensive report. I'm glad to see the joint approach used of considering bus and rail services together. In the last Senedd, I sat on the Economy, Infrastructure and Skills Committee, and I enjoyed taking part in our separate investigations then into bus and rail, but a point that I often made at that time was that, for areas like mine in the Cynon Valley, buses are the vital element linking what can be remote communities into the train network. We cannot see them apart, so I welcome the committee's approach. I'm also pleased that this joined-up thinking is embedded within the heart of the south Wales metro plans, and it's positive to note the progress towards delivery of this, which I can visibly see in my constituency. I'd like to put on record my thanks to the Transport for Wales team for keeping me informed of local developments in this regard, not least so that I can keep my constituents informed in turn.

Turning to the recommendations in the report, I want to touch on a few key points. I think recommendation 6 around understanding future travel patterns is key to what we all want to achieve in terms of putting in place a transformative public transport network that is fit for purpose. That network must enable Welsh citizens to travel for work and education, leisure and pleasure. I look forward to the Welsh Government releasing information on its planned national transport survey in due course. I also look forward to hearing what mechanisms will be put in place so that it captures the views and experiences of all sections of Welsh society. 

Recommendation 7 is also vitally important. We want to make sure that people get back on the buses. I applaud the money that the Welsh Government has made available to support bus services during the pandemic, but I am also concerned that forthcoming plans for legislation on buses won't achieve all that they could do unless, for example, councils are given sufficient funding to run services. For example, I'm dealing with cases in my constituency where there is no bus service to Cwmdare or Cwmbach after 5.30 p.m., and these are not rural outposts, they're villages just outside the town itself, leaving constituents—many of whom are older and do not have private transport—effectively isolated. That cannot be something that we allow to continue. If these services, as I am told, are unsustainable for private providers, how will this differ for the local authority? How can this be facilitated during the current economic climate? Without getting this right, all we may achieve is shifting the blame for poor bus services onto local authorities. So, I look forward to any reassurance that the Deputy Minister can give on this point. 

Recommendation 8 is also vitally important. The best planned bus network in the world will come to nothing if we don't have drivers in place to make sure that it can operate. I've supported my own local trade union branches to resolve local issues as they arise, and I'm certain that Welsh Government will ensure that our trade unions also have a part to play in these discussions. We must recognise that decent pay across all areas, not localised pay awards, and ensuring good working conditions are key to workforce retention. 

Finally, recommendation 9. We need to make it economical for people to access public transport, but I'm deeply concerned that the reality of ticket prices may be having a deterrent effect, especially when other circumstances are factored in, such as services being cancelled at short notice. For example, consider a parent from Pen-y-Waun, one of the least affluent parts of my constituency, taking their two teenage children, for example, to their nearest GP surgery in Trecynon. That journey would be just over 1.5 miles, but the price of three tickets is actually the same as the cost of a taxi journey that would take you door to door. Worryingly, one local bus provider has announced that ticket prices will be increasing by almost 10 per cent from the end of this month, and return adult tickets would also be scrapped. I notice the various strands of work that Welsh Government has put in place to try and seek a resolution, and again, I also recognise the very real funding pressures that Ministers are under, but we've got to get this right to make public transport a sensible, sustainable, realistic and affordable choice. Diolch.

I welcome this report. As the Chair began with saying, I note that, of its 26 recommendations, only one was rejected by the Welsh Government. I'd also like to address my remarks this afternoon to some of the recommendations that it contains. Recommendation 7 refers to encouraging passengers to return to public bus services. I very much agree with this, as I'm sure many of my colleagues in the Chamber and beyond do as well. The Welsh Government's aim has been, from day one, from what I've been hearing, to get people out of their cars, off the roads and to use public transport instead. All well and good. This is a noble intention without any doubt, and it would reduce congestion and carbon emissions. However, it can only work if a strong and efficient public transport network is here in the first place.

There is no doubt that people living here in Wales and across south-east Wales in my region, as my colleague Alun Davies said, are very car dependent. You can't deny the reality. We've had countless debates, speeches and questions in this Chamber, and no-one can deny here that bus services are inadequate, infrequent and non-existent across Wales. The lack of a decent bus service undermines the economy and makes it more difficult for people all across the board to access jobs and essential services. The number of local bus journeys was falling before the pandemic, thanks to years of inadequate financial support from, sadly, the Welsh Government, and they still haven't returned to pre-COVID levels. Many bus services have not resumed since the pandemic, leaving residents isolated within their communities. After numerous debates, questions and speeches heard here in the Senedd, I really do welcome the fact that the Welsh Government has finally recognised the importance of bus services after years of chronic underfunding. 

I do look forward to seeing detailed proposals going forward to support bus services in their forthcoming legislation, and I'm keen to see how the Welsh Government will help rural areas afford eco-friendly buses, moving forward. We really do need to address the shortage of bus drivers who have left the sector for higher pay elsewhere, and rather than getting into a situation, as we see with GPs, we need to work on this now rather than later. Improvement in the pay and conditions of lorry drivers has resulted in many bus drivers leaving their jobs, causing what's been called the most challenging resourcing position that the bus industry has ever seen. It's lovely that we all talk the talk, but we now need to walk the walk when it comes to buses.

Recommendation 23 calls on Transport for Wales to provide an update on the latest position on metro costs. The metro project is a key component in the Welsh Government's strategy to encourage people off the road to ultimately use public transport. In February 2021, the chief executive of Transport for Wales said that the completion of the south Wales metro project would be delayed by months—and not years—as a result of the pandemic, with the completion date remaining as 2023.

In May last year, TfW said that the cost of the metro project was likely to be significantly over its £734 million budget, with the overspend likely to run into tens of millions of pounds—that’s tens of millions of pounds of taxpayers’ money. Completion of the project was put back to 2024, and last November, further delays were confirmed to the upgrade, with the majority of work forecast to finish in 2024, but with no date for full completion of the project being given, which is concerning for me and many people, I’m sure. One of the reasons given for this further delay was COVID, which TfW had previously said would not cause delays beyond 2023. So, once again, I repeat my call for a statement from the Deputy Minister to advise when work on the south Wales metro will be finally completed. And, what is the latest estimate of the total cost of the Welsh Government’s flagship project to get people off the road and to use public transport? 

Recommendation 25 calls for TfW to provide an update on the integrated ticketing pilot and explain what are the next steps. One of my first acts, after being elected to the Senedd, was to call for an all-Wales travel card to allow seamless journeys across the whole of Wales, just like one card—similar to what all of you have probably seen—as the Oyster card is in London. To his credit, and I must give him credit for this, the First Minister did respond with optimism and said that it was an idea worth exploring and really committed to exploring the possibility of introducing such a card for the people of Wales.

In October last year, in a reply to a written question, asking for an update on these plans, the Deputy Minister for Climate Change said and I quote,

'We continue to work with Transport for Wales to explore options for integrated ticketing'.

So, going forward, let me put my feelings on the record here today when I say that I’m deeply disappointed at the lack of progress on this issue, as Transport for Wales put up a page on their website saying that the travel card would be coming soon, then all of a sudden removed it. I would like to ask for regular updates in this Senedd on delivering an all-Wales travel card as it will be the foundation of a strong and sustainable public transport network here in Wales for the people of Wales, because if we don’t work on it now, I really don’t feel that we will ever achieve a strong bus and rail network here for the people of Wales.

I'm grateful to the committee and to the clerking team of the committee for producing this report. Of course, the test that I will establish for Government policy is how it affects the people of Blaenau Gwent, because the exchange that I enjoyed at least—I don't know if anybody else did—with Jenny Rathbone earlier was about the difference in experience between those in the centre of Cardiff and those who live in the heads of the Valleys. And I think it's an important differential to make, because what stood out for me in the report was the emphasis on behavioural change, and the Chair emphasised that in his introduction. And behavioural change will only happen if there are viable alternatives to using the car. And all too often for my constituency—the people I represent—those alternatives do not exist. 

And this, Deputy Minister, is where the test for the Government lies, because I've spent too long, possibly, in this Chamber listening to ministerial speeches, and I feel frankly let down by some of those speeches. Because, I heard the contributions—which the Deputy Minister will, no doubt, make this afternoon—on how the Welsh Government want us to move from car to bus or to rail or to whatever. And then, of course, I see them building a grand hospital—and I very much support the building of the Grange University Hospital in Cwmbran—we had a bus every hour to Nevill Hall Hospital in Abergavenny; no bus at all to the Grange. And it was promised for five years by Ministers in this place that those services would exist. The current Minister has promised that he will investigate it, but today, those services simply don't exist. So, it isn't good enough for the Government to say that it wants the people to do all of this and then it makes it more difficult for the people to actually use those services. And those services all too often don't exist, and that isn't fair and it isn't right.

And, you know, one of my great regrets in this place—. Members may not believe this, but I was silent when it happened, and I should've opened my mouth. When the south-east Wales—I can't remember the correct name—transport executive was abolished by a previous Minister, it took away all the ability of local government and others to co-ordinate and to plan transport. Now, I understand, of course, that this is being reintroduced through corporate joint committees—and we understand now that the Conservatives all of a sudden support these things, and I welcome their conversions—but we need this level of co-ordination because—. I met a constituent in an advice surgery in Cwm last year, and he was explaining to me that, for him to get to the Grange, he would have to go via Brynmawr. Now, anybody who knows the geography of the south Wales Valleys knows that you don't tend to travel south by travelling north. And it is unfair to put vulnerable people in this position. We know—and we've explored this on many occasions in this place—that it was the Thatcher reforms that destroyed the bus industry. We understand that. But we've also had responsibility in this place for over 20 years, and we need to ensure that we are demonstrating that that actually means something. And I want the Deputy Minister, in responding to this debate, to explain how behavioural change happens alongside equality, so that my constituents have the same opportunity as the constituents represented by Jenny Rathbone. And I'll give way.

On this issue of equality, I just wondered if you'd picked up, in the report, the suggestion by Professor Barry that, perhaps we ought to get older people, who currently don't pay at all, to pay £1, and that would then give us more money to perhaps lower the fares of other people, particularly younger people under 25. Now, I know this is the holy grail, but there is very little extra money in the system, and we might be able to encourage some people to pay—

Jenny, you might find this surprising, but I'm celebrating my fifty-ninth birthday next month, so my thinking is developing on the bus pass, shall we say, and perhaps I should declare an interest in it. But, look—

Would you be prepared to pay £1?

Yes, I would be prepared to pay £1. But, I also think that perhaps we should be making public transport free, or £1 flat rate for everyone, wherever they're travelling to, at any time. I actually think that we need to think about investing in public transport and not just putting up barriers to public transport.

So, I don't have the sacred cows that all too often we parade in this Chamber, and I would be prepared to look at any of those different examples of how we encourage investment in the system. But, for me, the purpose is to make public transport easier to use. And, if that means a flat rate of £1 for everyone, so be it. But I would like to ensure that we don't have the chaos of ticketing that we have at the moment. And it's a standing regret for me—. And I hear what the Members opposite are saying, and it is good to see the leader of the opposition in the Chamber for this debate. What I would say to them, in all seriousness, is that, until you devolve responsibility for rail infrastructure to this place, there is no chance at all of any of the ambitions that Natasha Asghar has outlined this afternoon actually being achieved, because the money simply isn't in the system. Welsh taxpayers are being robbed day after day after day. The decisions taken over HS2 are appalling—absolutely appalling—and Conservatives should stand up, be counted and call that out—

Alun, you need to conclude now, please.

—in the same way as we do elsewhere. So, I'm grateful for your indulgence, Deputy Presiding Officer.

Minister, in replying to this debate, I want to see the equality of treatment for people up and down the country, and I want you to pass the Blaenau Gwent test. I want you to pass it with flying colours, and I want to ensure that we have the investment in the buses, the rail, and the integration of transport services that mean that my constituents have the same opportunities to use public transport as Jenny's constituents, and we promise, then, that we won't plug up your car parks in the centre of Cardiff, Jenny. Thank you very much.

May I echo my thanks to the committee for all of this work on this vitally important issue. And, similarly, I agree with a number of the points that Alun Davies made. This is an issue of equality, and I was going to raise similar points in terms of residents of South Wales Central. If you think about how—. I represent the Cardiff area, where it's far easier to change your practice; you can choose not to have a car, because of alternative methods of transport. If you move towards Pontypridd and further into the Valleys, and Vikki referred to those areas—. Well, that's all within my region, and the complaints that I hear on a daily basis from people where they don't have alternative modes of transport, they don't have a car, so, when the bus or the train isn't there, isn't running, then they are entirely stuck in their homes—. That means that they lose opportunities in terms of employment, they lose opportunities to access medical appointments, which are very difficult to get these days, but also in terms of getting their children to school on time or picking up children who are poorly from school. There's huge inequality at the moment. When we talk about changes of practices or routines, a number of people in my region do use the bus or the train because that's the only option available to them, but the problem and the complaints that we hear now are that the trains aren't running. We know about the upgrade with regard to the metro, which is very much to be welcomed, but the thing is that those buses don't turn up if the trains don't run, and often buses are cancelled too.

I was very pleased to see recommendation 8 specifically, because we do know that there is a crisis in recruitment. We have to remember then about the statistics and the people behind those statistics. As I've been a councillor, a number of people in Pontypridd still have my phone number, and I receive a text every time that one bus at 16:29 in the afternoon—it's the last bus that goes up the hill in Pontypridd—doesn't run. I receive a text almost every day that that service isn't running, and I hear time and time again about the same old services. So, this is a problem for people, and we're not just talking about people in rural areas. We know about the huge problem there, but you can live in a town such as Pontypridd, you can see the shops, you can see all of the things that are going on, but you can't get there if you don't have a car and if you're not able to walk. And then we think about equality issues, because even if you do have that bus pass, even if you can afford it, if the service isn't available, then it's a fact that people are stuck in their homes.

One of the concerns that are raised with me when I talk to young people in my region is their lack of confidence in terms of taking the bus or the train, because a number of them haven't had an opportunity to do that at all because of the pandemic, to be able to make that journey without their parents for the first time, and there are a number of schemes now where youth workers are having to take children and young people for the first time on a bus and show them how the system works, almost holding their hand through that process. So, one of the things that I was going to ask—. If we are going to change our practices, then starting with young people is going to be vitally important. So, with regard to that practical support, which can be very costly, how are we going to use the new curriculum, for example, to be promoting using public transport and normalising that use of public transport? Because, clearly, there's a number of steps here with regard to transforming the system for the future, but it's vitally important that we support people through that process too, because, in nations where public transport is normalised, people know how it works.

But there are more fundamental issues to bear in mind here too. I think that the issue of cost is very important. We're hearing in other committees at the moment about children and young people not getting to school if they aren't within the catchment area of being able to access a free bus ticket to school. So, cost is an issue, and we need to look at that range of issues. But I would hope that the Deputy Minister would agree with me that we shouldn't see a situation where a young person is being refused access to a bus that is taking them to school because they don't have the money to pay for the fare. I would hope that we could look at measures in terms of anti-poverty measures and the cost-of-living crisis to deal with the current crisis in terms of transport costs, which is preventing people from getting to school. I'll let Sioned Williams come in.

Thank you, Heledd. Would you agree that one of the cohorts of young people very much affected by the cost of living and the high cost of transport is students? They very often have to live in cities. We know that they sometimes have to live on the outskirts of cities, because rental costs are so high in city centres, and they've told me they're having to travel in then for their courses and, as we heard from Jenny, they are a group of young people who can't get reduced cost transport. So, should they too be a priority?

Certainly, and, when I talk about young people, I'm not just talking about those in schools; it extends to cover that group too. And I would ask the Deputy Minister to reflect on that too. I see that time is against me, but, similar to Alun Davies, it's a matter of equality and how we're going to ensure, just in terms of the services that are meant to be there now, that they're running—that's one of the things, without mentioning extending services for the future. Thank you.

Thank you. I welcome the committee report. Public transport is a lifeline for many, ensuring that nobody is left behind. It's a social issue, as well as maintaining access to work. I know in rural areas the bus journey for regular passengers is where they enjoy a social chat with each other and the driver, and we've heard at the culture and sports committee that public transport is essential to ensure fair access to swimming pools and sports clubs. Access to medical appointments is one of the biggest concerns for residents.

But running bus transport is expensive. It needs to integrate with school transport to help subsidise the journeys for the rest of the day, and I'm aware that the Learner Travel Measure (Wales) 2008 is being reviewed, but we need to understand the cost and resource issue. At the Local Government and Housing Committee last week, the leader of the Welsh Local Government Association spoke about the daily issue of ensuring there are enough operators to fulfil school transport contracts and make sure no child is left behind. There's been a 40 per cent price increase, creating a massive budget pressure. I'm still a bit concerned that CJCs will be able to deliver transport, which is hugely complex. One local authority had 450 contracts, 350 are school, and officers have good daily communication with operators, helping them to maintain services when they may be about to collapse, or asking them to step in last minute when needed. Accountability is important, ensuring that no child or vulnerable adult is left behind.

Procurement of buses is expensive as well. They vary from £350,000 to £450,000 for one bus, and a service can cost between £350,000 to £700,000 to run. If journeys are not commercial, they stop, and that's when councils have stepped in with subsidies, but three councils have already withdrawn subsidies over the last few years during austerity, and I'm aware that many more have put them on the table this year as cost savings. So, that will need to be considered. If Welsh Government, through Transport for Wales, could help with procurement, using scale of purchase, it could help with sustainability for operators and local authorities or CJCs commissioning services. And I know that's something that the Deputy Minister is maybe looking at.

Residents like a scheduled bus service, but many are having to accept change, and the Fflecsi bus service, which is operating in north Wales, is being welcomed and it seems to be working really well once residents and passengers accept change. Reliability and clear timetabling is important to encourage people to use bus transport and to have faith in them. One bad experience can put them off altogether. And one bus timetable change by an operator can mean 150 bus stops then have to be updated, which is really labour intensive and forced on local authorities who do not have resources. So, franchising, going forward, will be really helpful with that, because they can commission services for a longer time, where operators won't change and cut them in-year. So, that will be really welcome. A friendly, helpful bus driver and rail platform assistant is invaluable and makes all the difference in people having confidence to use public transport, especially if they have physical or mental difficulties, and that was discussed this morning on the radio as well.

Recruitment and retention of drivers is an issue. Arriva Wales pay drivers less in Wales, under their contract, which is unfair and causes an issue, because they cross the border and pass colleagues on a daily basis, and it's something unions are trying to sort out. If local authorities are able to get an operator's licence, which is something that some have looked at in the past, then their street scene driver operatives could maybe get a licence and training to become bus drivers and fill in gaps left behind by operators if we're going to look for that franchising model with local authorities stepping in as well. There's still an overcrowding issue on north Wales trains, but I'm pleased to see the mark 4 back on the service. Fantastic. They've been refurbished. And more rail services have been promised.

The current rail workers' strikes are not just about wages, but ensuring that lines and signals are maintained by experienced, qualified operatives, and that there are guards on trains and adequate platform staff to ensure the safety of all passengers, and that's why I support the strikes and the negotiations that are taking place.

Integrated fares that can be used across operators are also important, as well as maintaining cross-border transport, as we have an open border. And I really welcome the 1Bws ticket—I think it was last year that was used as a model, and it was really welcomed—which can be used across different operators. The railway network needs to be better funded. We need this £5 billion from HS2. The rail network has never been self-funded, ever since it was developed, because when railway lines were built they competed with each other right from the beginning and didn't cover the whole area.

I know Welsh Government wants to introduce fairer fares. It would be great to have a universal one-price ticket; I think you might have to look at this £1 to subsidise others. But I understand we need to get the network in place first, and I welcome all the commitment from Welsh Government and the Deputy Minister and all his efforts in trying to resolve this, along with Transport for Wales. Thank you.

I call on the Deputy Minister for Climate Change, Lee Waters.

Diolch yn fawr iawn, Dirprwy Lywydd, and thank you to all colleagues for a stimulating debate. I think there is common cause, again, in this Chamber, for improving the reality of public transport and for achieving our shared aspiration of modal shift to tackle not just the climate crisis but also social justice. It's a little frustrating, and I'm aware of the irony, for me to hear this afternoon the list of issues Members raised that I agree with and have for many years been making myself, and now find myself in the position of trying to operationalise the challenge into solutions, and these things are all clearly easier said than done. 

We face a number of pressures at the moment. We have rising costs—so, every scheme we operate is costing more to deliver—and we have reducing funding, which is very frustrating, at a time when, clearly, the public transport sector, both rail and bus, has not recovered from the pandemic. So, it is costing more to run services. And we have saved the private bus industry from bankruptcy continually through the pandemic, through our bus emergency support scheme. That now faces renewal in the coming months, and we have less money. I really do worry about the impact the funding is going to have in shrinking our bus network. And as Members have pointed out, the bus industry is having problems of its own recruiting and retaining bus drivers, as well as with rising fuel costs, and my concern is that these services are often not operating already, and Sioned Williams has given us a good example in Pontypridd—forgive me, it was Heledd Fychan that gave us the example in Pontypridd—of buses not turning up. So, quite clearly, bus companies are struggling to maintain their current timetable, and my worry is that, as we have to pare back the bus emergency scheme, because we're coming out of the pandemic and the funding just isn't available, they will simply blame us for shrinking the bus network when of course it's us that saved the bus network in the first place. This, I think, goes to the heart of the failures of the privatised model that we have.

Alun Davies raised again the excellent example of the problem of the Grange hospital, where a hospital was built in the first place without public transport being thought of. Here, we have the disconnect between different services, where transport often isn't thought about by education or health providers until too late. And he talks about the specific—[Interruption.] Can I just answer the point first? He makes the specific point of a bus service not being available from Blaenau Gwent to the Grange, and that again is the cause of much frustration. We've discussed it a number of times, and the truth of the matter is we have tried to put in place a service to go from his constituency to the Grange, but we've been frustrated by the way the market works. If there is a publicly funded bus service in place that competes with a commercially run service, the operators are able to challenge us legally, and that is what has happened in this case. We've tried to put the service in place. A provider that provides a very small part of the route has challenged us on that, and as a result there is paralysis and it's Alun Davies's constituents who are suffering. It's not good enough, and it's extremely frustrating that the legal framework stops us providing an integrated public transport service, as it does on Natasha Asghar's much cited single ticket, as she well knows, or certainly ought to. The way that the current legal system is set up makes it impossible to do that, and that's why we are looking to reform the system through the bus Bill, and I welcome the support she has given consistently to a bus Bill, and I look forward to trying to shape that on a cross-party basis to achieve our shared ambition. So, there are some fundamental problems that we have plans and are working hard to address around the legal framework for the bus industry.

I though the exchange between Jenny Rathbone and Alun Davies was a very useful one, and I think this Chamber is at its best when people put down their speeches and respond to the debate, which is what I'm going to try and do this afternoon, because the points they both made were absolutely on point. Jenny Rathbone is right: we do need to discourage people from taking journeys into city centres when there are existing alternatives available, and we want to create better alternatives. And hats off to Cardiff Council for having the courage to develop a scheme of congestion charging, which they will hypothecate to a so-called crossrail project in Cardiff to improve metro public transport services in Cardiff. That's the right thing to do. It's politically challenging, but it's the right thing to do and we're working with them.

Alun Davies is also right that the services for his constituents currently are sometimes not there, and they're certainly not good enough to provide people with a realistic alternative. I, myself, have the novelty of having given up my second car, and I'm trying to get around by electric bike and train. And I can tell you it's tricky. It is frustrating, it is often inconvenient, and that is, I'm afraid, the reality—not for all journeys; for some journeys it's brilliant. But there'll be times with an unplanned journey, or there will be times when the trains don't turn up because of staff shortages, because of the weather, for all sorts of legitimate reasons, where, as a passenger, it is very frustrating. And unless we change that reality, we're never going to hit our modal shift target and we're never going to hit our climate change target. I see Alun Davies wants to intervene, I'd be happy for him to. 

I'm always grateful for the Minister's candour. It's a refreshing candour, and we all appreciate it. Let me say one thing, and I admire your fortitude with an electric bike. If you lived in Tredegar this morning, you wouldn't have enjoyed it. But, in terms of the issue around Cardiff, because it is an important issue, it's profoundly unfair that my constituents and constituents from elsewhere in the Valleys, whom Cardiff relies upon in terms of retail and professional employment and the rest of it, would be asked to pay a congestion charge that pays for improvements in Cardiff and not for improvements in the Valleys and elsewhere. That is profoundly unfair. And, for people like me, I would never, ever be persuaded to support that. So, we need to find something that is fair and equitable for everyone who uses this transport system.

Well, Alun Davies challenged me to pass the Blaenau Gwent test earlier, and I can tell him that there's also an Alun Davies test, which is being applied to the congestion charge, because Julie James and I have been having active conversations with Cardiff about the design of the congestion charge, and the points that he makes are absolutely fair and need to be built into the design of the system. But I would say that even his constituents, coming into Cardiff, would benefit from less congestion in Cardiff. So, it does benefit everybody, not just—. I think this is a slight false divide. I'd hate to create a culture war between Cardiff and the Valleys. But the thrust of his point is a fair one, and it is being designed into the system. I hope that gives him some reassurance. 

A number of other points were made, Dirprwy Lywydd. The core of the issue is, as a country, across the UK, we have not been putting the investment into public transport over a considerable time for us to be able to match the sort of services we get when we go to the continent. And that's the nub of the problem. And we're now facing the difficulty of trying to redistribute a too-small slice of public spending to meet the demands of a much better service, which we require both to address transport poverty, as both Llyr Huws Gruffydd and Delyth Jewell mentioned, which I think is absolutely right, and the bus reforms are as much about social justice as they are about climate justice. But, without that funding, then we are not able to do all of the things that we want to do.

The new corporate joint committee structure will help, the regional collaboration will help, but, ultimately, we need to have the money there to fund the services, and that is I think something all of us collectively are going to have to face up to. We are putting in the changes to the wiring that will improve the rail service, improve the bus service, improve the active travel service, to put in disincentives as well as to reallocate funding away from new road-building schemes, and we hope to bring forward the results of the roads review shortly. So, we are doing a great deal, but we are not doing as much as we would all want us to do because simply we do not have the money to do it. Diolch.

I call on Llyr Gruffydd to reply to the debate.

Well, thank you very much, Deputy Presiding Officer.

Can I thank everybody who has taken part in that very stimulating and very interesting debate? In fact, it was one of the best I've had the privilege of taking part in for a while here. Obviously, time means I can't repeat everything that everybody said, you'll be glad to hear, but I will pick out a few pertinent points.

The Minister came back to the roads review right at the end, which was one of the first things mentioned in this debate. Clearly, we're hoping that savings from any projects that don't go ahead will be utilised for sustainable travel, and it's something particularly the committee is keen to see, and that would help potentially address some of the issues around funding, albeit not enough in terms of the challenge that the Government does face.

References as well to rural services: we mustn't forget that modal shift in rural communities would look very different to modal shift in urban communities, and maybe that needs to be better reflected in more granular targets, for example, around some of these issues, but that's certainly something that we're all very aware of.

Yes, Wales is poorly served by the rail ecosystem, and Professor Mark Barry was making very, very valuable contributions to our work on the HS2 travesty. Coming back to money again, I think, is it the equivalent of £2 million a week for the next 20 years that we're contributing? So, clearly, there's a lot to be said about that.

Just to correct one thing about the cost of driving a car: I just checked the report as you were speaking. I think you said £250; it's near a 250 per cent increase. So, it's a 227 per cent increase by 2050. Without any further interventions, and investment in bus and coach, it's the 227 per cent increase by 2050 in order to drive the scale of modal shift needed in order to support net zero. But the carrot and stick was something that came through very clearly in much of the evidence that we received; you need to dangle the carrot, but you do need the stick as well in order to make that shift happen.

There were a number of references to the social injustices around access to services, and obviously reflecting different statistics around access to cars and dependency by particularly disabled people: 25 per cent depend on public transport. 'More needs to be done' was one call. Well, we've all said that, haven't we, in different ways? Even the Minister acknowledges that. Much is happening, I would say, as Chair. There's much being planned, there's much work in progress. I think the Minister himself said the challenge now is to operationalise—much of this is to actually start delivering.

Issues around the south Wales metro; when will that be completed? Well, spare a thought for the north Wales metro, which is on a very different trajectory as well, I would imagine, but is on the list of things to do, which is getting longer by the day.

Subsidised tickets, of course, is very important, but no good if there isn't a bus in the first place. So, that's clearly something that goes hand in hand. The recruitment of drivers is something that the committee touched on and a number of Members touched on, I think. And stories about buses not turning up; the point was made by a number of people in different ways. It undermines people's confidence in using buses. If you can't depend on it, then you're not going to use it in future. And particularly, encouraging students and young people to use buses; that's when you can establish a habit of a lifetime, and if you just find those people being pushed away in different ways, then obviously, that isn't going to happen, is it?

So, the Government did save the bus sector from bankruptcy during COVID, and we mustn't forget that. There are huge failures coming from the fact that it is a privatised service; the legal framework is mitigating against the kind of service that we want to see. These are—as the Minister said—fundamental problems that need to be addressed. But as we heard, there is common cause in the Chamber here today about addressing those challenges, and the committee, of course, stands ready to play our part as well in that process, to get us—in terms of bus and rail services in Wales—to where we need to be. Diolch.

The proposal is to note the committee's report. Does any Member object? No, therefore the motion is agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Motion agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.