The following amendment has been selected: amendment 1 in the name of Darren Millar.

This is a debate on the president of the Welsh Tribunal's annual report for 2021-22. I call on the Counsel General and the Minister for the Constitution to move the motion. Mick Antoniw.

Motion NDM8224 Lesley Griffiths

To propose that the Senedd notes the annual report of the President of Welsh Tribunals on the operation of the Welsh Tribunals in the period April 2021 to December 2022.

Motion moved.

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. I move the motion.

I'm pleased to open this debate on the president of Welsh Tribunals' annual report 2021-22; it's the final annual report of Sir Wyn Williams as president. Before moving to the annual report itself, I'm sure that Members would wish to join with me in thanking Sir Wyn for his significant contribution as president of Welsh Tribunals. Sir Wyn was the first to hold the post, which was created by the Wales Act 2017. He is retiring from the role at the end of March. He has played a crucial role in taking the group of tribunals that were not reserved to the England-and-Wales jurisdiction, and were grouped together as Welsh tribunals. Through his leadership, a system of Welsh tribunals was created with strong judicial independence. I will now continue in English.

Dirprwy Lywydd, all parts of the justice system across the United Kingdom have faced very significant challenges posed by the coronavirus pandemic, and the Welsh tribunals have been no different. The swift move to remote ways of working allowed the Welsh tribunals to operate fully through the pandemic, and the continued use of those remote ways of working, resisting the temptation to rush back to in-person-only proceedings, have meant that pandemic-related delays and backlogs have not happened here. This is to the enormous credit of those leading our tribunals and reflects that decisions taken in Wales in light of the needs of Wales can properly maintain people's access to justice.

That brings me to the question of reform. So, while it is to the credit of all involved in our tribunals that they've been able to operate successfully, things would have been much more efficient if we had a coherent tribunal structure with properly streamlined rules and procedures. We now have recommendations for reform from both the Commission on Justice in Wales, on which Sir Wyn had served as a commissioner, of course, and from the Law Commission, with whose report Members will be familiar.

In his annual report, Sir Wyn makes it very clear, while being careful not to stray into the world of political choices, that reform of our tribunals is not just desirable, but necessary. One of the recommendations made by the Commission on Justice in Wales, and also by the Law Commission, concerns the structural independence of the Welsh Tribunals unit. Not only is this an issue that has been a recurring theme in each of the president's annual reports, it is one that the president has reiterated in person before the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee. The president appeared before the committee most recently on the thirteenth of this month, where he said that justice must not only be done but must be seen to be done by making the administration of justice now conducted by the Welsh Tribunals unit independent of Government, and this is a position with which I do not disagree. As our system of Welsh tribunals under the Wales Act 2017 has developed, so has the Welsh Tribunals unit's role in administering them.

Of course, the Law Commission has provided a suite of recommendations, which set out structural reforms required to modernise our tribunals system. In 'Delivering Justice for Wales', I made clear our intention to legislate to create an integrated tribunals system. Remodelling of the administration of justice is an essential part of our journey towards building a justice infrastructure for Wales that is capable of managing the ever-greater divergence of law from England. It is right that, in developing legislative proposals, we consider all the options for the independence of the new tribunals system for Wales, and I've said before, and I'll repeat again: judicial independence is the guiding principle for the way in which judicial institutions are and will continue to be supported in Wales, and this will not be lost in the work that we are doing and preparing to reform our devolved tribunals in Wales. The Government is committed to this work, and I'll be setting out plans in due course with the publication of a White Paper in the coming months.

The next annual report we receive will of course be from a new president of Welsh Tribunals—

Will the Minister give way?

Yes, certainly.

I'm listening to your arguments on this matter of reform, and it will be no surprise to you that I agree with you very much. I'm interested therefore that the Government are asking us to vote against the Conservative amendment on this matter in the vote this afternoon, and it appears to me that what the Conservative amendment is doing is very much along the lines that you've just described, so I'd be interested to know why you wouldn't want to support that amendment.

Well, I will come to that. It's one of those ironies that I'm really glad that there is an amendment, because it shows someone has read the paper and the importance of it to this Senedd, and it also reflects one of the positions in respect of independence. I think the point is that, if we're going to have a White Paper and we're going to have a consultation, there are of course other models of how the independence of the tribunals will operate, and my only view is that, even though I suspect we may well come back to that, it's just that it's premature at this stage, I think, to throw our lot in and say that this is the particular system. It may well be, but there are others, and I think we need to go through a process of proper consideration of those before we get to it, particularly in legislation of this type, which is reforming part of the judicial system.

So, as I was saying, I'm delighted that Sir Gary Hickinbottom will be the new president of tribunals, and, of course, he has considerable experience not only in the courts in Wales, but also in the Court of Appeal, and I look forward to working with him as we move forward towards a reformed tribunals service.

Deputy Llywydd, in closing, I hope Members will also join me in thanking the president of Welsh Tribunals for his annual report, and, of course, I'm sure we all wish him well for his retirement—his deserved retirement.

I have selected the amendment to the motion, and I call on Mark Isherwood to move the amendment, tabled in the name of Darren Millar.

Amendment 1—Darren Millar

Add as new point at end of motion:

Supports calls for a much greater degree of independence for the Welsh Tribunals Unit, with the creation of a non-ministerial department to administer the Welsh Tribunals.

Amendment 1 moved.

Diolch yn fawr. Questioning the Counsel General here in September 2021, I asked him for his initial response to proposals in the Law Commission's consultation paper on devolved tribunals in Wales to, in particular, reform the Welsh Tribunals unit, the part of the Welsh Government that currently administers most devolved tribunals, into a non-ministerial department.

I questioned the Counsel General here in July last July on the Law Commission's December 2021 final report on devolved tribunals in Wales, which included,

'we are persuaded that the non-ministerial department model is the one that should be adopted for the future administration of the system of devolved tribunals in Wales', and which stated:

'The tribunals service should be operationally independent from the Welsh Government'.

I also noted that, although there is no absolute doctrine of separation of powers in the UK, the concept of separation of powers between the legislature—i.e. Senedd—Executive—i.e. Welsh Government—and the judiciary, has long applied in and across the UK to prevent the concentration of power by providing checks and balances. And I asked the Counsel General:

'What conclusions have you therefore now reached after considering the Law Commission's findings regarding this specific point?'

In his reply, the Counsel General stated,

'the points that the Member raises are absolutely fundamental, and that is that that part of the justice system has to be independent of Government...it has to be a model that ensures the independent operation of the Welsh Tribunals unit'.

This is seen in action in Scotland, where a judge chairs the board of the non-ministerial department there. 

In the report we're debating today, the president of Welsh Tribunals, Sir Wyn Williams, highlights his support for nine major recommendations made by the commission, including that a tribunals service for Wales should be created as a non-ministerial department, and Welsh Ministers and others responsible for the administration of justice in Wales should be subject to a statutory duty to uphold the independence of the Welsh tribunals. He adds, however, that while the Welsh Government supports the Welsh Tribunals unit having a much greater degree of independence, it has not committed to creating a non-ministerial department to administer the Welsh tribunals. As he told the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee, he feels that citizens get nervous when there seems to be too much of a connection between the Government and judiciary, so there will be a need to make the Welsh Tribunals unit independent. I move amendment 1 accordingly, calling for a much greater degree of independence for the Welsh Tribunals unit with the creation of a non-ministerial department to administer the Welsh Tribunals unit.

I will concluding by quoting Sir Wyn's statement that the role of the president of Welsh Tribunals

'is not and should not be introspective...I have benefitted substantially from the willingness of colleagues in England, Northern Ireland and Scotland to share with me aspects of their ways of working' and by thanking him—and I will conclude here—for his six years in this role, and wishing him every future success in his life as he goes forward. Thank you.

I'm grateful for the opportunity to speak in this debate today. I'd also like to thank the Welsh Government for scheduling the debate in a way that allowed for the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee’s consideration of the annual report.

And I join, at the outset, the Counsel General and others in paying tribute to the contribution of Sir Wyn, the president of Welsh Tribunals over the last six years. And indeed, as the Counsel General has remarked, he attended our committee only a week last Monday—yes, a week ago, the Monday just gone—and we discussed with him in some detail some of the key issues arising from his report. And I concur with the comments of the Counsel General there: one of the things that is quite signal in this report and his previous work is the independence that he's brought to the role. And also I have to say that we on the committee would pay tribute to those involved in the work of the tribunals in Wales as well. His time of office is coming to an end this month and we do, indeed, wish him very well indeed, and thank him for his engagement with the committee.  

We had a discussion with Sir Wyn on the Welsh Government’s plans for reforms to the Welsh tribunals. He told us, in the way that he does, in a very intelligent and very nuanced way as well—he stressed to us, in his view, the advantages of a non-ministerial department to administer the tribunals, a point picked up by Mark and others, and Alun a moment ago, the importance of a Welsh Tribunals unit being independent from the Welsh Government and of the benefits of the creation of an appeal tribunal for Wales for those people seeking access to justice.

Now, I think I heard the Minister confirming—I think—that these options would be in there as part of the consultation, but I wonder if he could confirm that the White Paper and the consultation will indeed cover Sir Wyn's suggestions, if the Counsel General is saying he's neither ruling them in nor ruling them out at the moment, but he accepts the case for independence. I think Sir Wyn was quite nuanced in what he said. Whilst he came down firmly on the side of saying he sees the benefit of a non-ministerial department for the additional independence, he did acknowledge that there were other ways you could also do it. So, I think we'd look for the assurance that all of those options are going to be within the consultation. I note, Counsel General, that you said, in terms of the principles, the guiding principles of Welsh Government on this, that judicial independence is absolutely crucial.

I'd be grateful, as well, to hear your expectations, Counsel General, on when the legislation to reform the Welsh tribunals is likely to be introduced, and I wonder if you can commit to introducing it in this Senedd. If we acknowledge that it's important to improve people's access to justice, will we see it sooner rather than later?

During our session, we also heard Sir Wyn's assessment as to why some of the Welsh tribunals had received a substantial increase in applications recently, whilst others had seen a significant decrease. Whilst he didn't share with us his hope that these decreases did not suggest that people may not be able to access justice—there could be other reasons—we do look forward to hearing from Sir Wyn's successor on whether these figures have any danger of turning into a trend, and what steps then will be taken in response. 

Sir Wyn also told us about some of the challenges faced in appointing members of the Welsh tribunals, and he shared his very strong view that a tribunals centre, located in Wales, that could bring these people together and give that critical mass, could go quite some way to helping overcome some of these challenges. So, I'd welcome the Counsel General's thoughts on that.

The Llywydd took the Chair.

We also heard about the decrease in the use of the Welsh language in Welsh tribunals over the last two years, which is concerning. We will be keeping a close eye on this issue when we hold future sessions with Sir Wyn's successor.

I would like to take this opportunity to thank Sir Wyn once again for his work as president of Welsh Tribunals, and for his willingness to appear before my committee. Thank you very much, Llywydd.

Thank you to the Counsel General for bringing this debate forward this afternoon. I was a substitute on the committee when the report was discussed, and I'd like to echo our thanks to Sir Wyn Williams for his contribution in this important role.

Certainly, it is testament to him and his team that they fulfilled their responsibilities with the utmost professionalism and diligence throughout the unprecedented challenges of the pandemic. We of course wish all the best to his successor, Sir Gary Hickinbottom, who will take over the role in April.

I won't repeat some of the questions asked, but I think, in terms of the timescales, it is important. You've outlined today that commitment in terms of a White Paper in the coming months, but if there was a more specific timescale, I think that would be welcome.

Huw Irranca referred to the use of the Welsh language, and certainly that came through very strongly. It's only in relation to issues that relate to the Welsh language that the language is used at the moment, and I think normalising the use of the Welsh language and ensuring that everyone is aware that the Welsh language option is available is very important.

Another issue that became apparent during our discussion was on the issue of the budget moving forward. There was some uncertainty in terms of the decrease in the budget for the coming year, but also it is unclear at the moment what the costs will be in the future. Clearly, having been able to hold hearings virtually has reduced costs, but as things proceed, we don't know what the demand will be in that regard. He was very eager to emphasise with us that obviously we don't know either how many cases haven't been brought forward during COVID, and that we do need an assurance therefore that the budget will be sufficient for that work to proceed. So, I just wanted to reflect a little on that too.

Clearly, in terms of the White Paper, it's very important that we do see progress in this area.

Very clearly, Sir Wyn was clear in his support of the Law Commission's recommendations, which would enable the Welsh Tribunals to be more responsive to the devolved legislative landscape, so I do think that we do need to see progress in this regard.

Finally, I'd like to reflect on the overarching conclusion of the Law Commission, echoed by Sir Wyn in his report, which states that the current arrangements for the Welsh Tribunals are,

'complicated and inconsistent, and in some instances, unfit for practice', and do not adequately reflect the scope of the Senedd's competencies. Such a verdict, of course, is applicable to the current justice system as a whole in Wales, which as the Thomas commission and numerous legal scholars have recognised, is also no longer fit for purpose in the devolved era. I hope, therefore, that this report serves to focus attention on the broader need for the full devolution of justice powers in Wales, to end the damaging position that our nation currently finds itself in, relative to the rest of the UK. I would also hope that it will spur Labour Members in particular to impress upon their Westminster colleagues that the proposals of the Gordon Brown report, which are a significant dilution of the Welsh Government's official position on the devolution of justice, are simply not good enough.

I think the access to all types of justice is hugely important, and the matters that tribunals deal with are obviously absolutely crucial for the individuals involved. Here we are again on the jagged edge of the justice system. Reading this annual report, I was very interested to learn that the president of Welsh Tribunals is conferred by the UK Parliament, whilst the civil servants administrating the tribunals are a unit within the Welsh Government.

The budget for this current year is £4.2 million. Is that coming out of the Welsh Government's budget or the UK Government's budget? These are important matters as we decide how we are going to devolve policing and justice to Wales, and to ensure that we have a smooth transition, with the finances to go with them. I noticed that Sir Wyn Williams met Lord Wolfson in 2022 about the then proposed bill of rights, something that may or may not re-emerge in the latest numbers of Ministers who've held this post, but, clearly, something that we're all going to want to have a say on in due course if it comes to pass.

I just want to focus the rest of my remarks on the mental health review tribunal, which clearly is the most important of all the tribunals, given the numbers that are going through it. First of all, I just want to congratulate Sir Wyn for having accurate data gathering, because we can't make proper decisions unless we know exactly what we're dealing with and, interestingly, his explanation as to why the numbers in 2019-20, of 1,900 and a few, have gone down to 1,291 in April to December 2022. Obviously that's not quite a full year. But if the methodology that has been adopted of cutting and pasting tribunal activity prevents human error in duplicating things, that's extremely important.

I wanted to express my concern as to the ambition to appoint two full-time salaried members of the mental health review tribunal, and it's disappointing to read that it wasn't possible to make such an appointment or appointments because of the calibre of the individuals who applied—they simply didn't have the skills required. So, it would be useful to know from the Counsel General was it that they weren't advertised widely enough, or the remuneration was not sufficient to reflect the very heavy duties of anyone involved in deciding whether to deprive someone of their liberty, either because of the risk to themselves or others.

Additionally, I note that a very experienced Welsh-speaking member of the mental health review tribunal could not be reappointed because of her age, simply because the Lord Chancellor had failed to consider a clause within the Judicial Pensions and Retirement Act 1993, which wasn't then passported through in the Public Service Pensions and Judicial Offices Act 2022, which is an indication of why we need to have these matters brought together, devolved to Wales, so that we don't come across such a matter again. Clearly, these are really important issues that are discussed here, and I'm very pleased that this annual report has been tabled this afternoon.

We often discuss, in this place, about devolving justice, and you'll hear arguments being said that we can't possibly have a Welsh justice jurisdiction, but here we have it. Today, we have proof that there is a small Welsh jurisdiction within the Welsh Tribunals service that deals with—as Jenny Rathbone reminded us—very important aspects of daily life: mental health; education; housing. Now, there is no coherency at all within the Welsh tribunals. The fact that there is now some coherency is due to the work of Sir Wyn, and I'd like to reiterate the tribute paid to him.

A big argument in favour of the devolution of justice to Wales is that what we have already we are doing well. I can't say we can always say that about the Welsh tribunals. I reiterate what Heledd Fychan said: the importance of a proper budget for the Welsh tribunals in going forward. For example, we often criticize the state of courts and tribunals within the reserved system, but the truth is that the centres within the Welsh tribunals are not very good, and I'm not even sure whether we had some fixed centres for some areas. For example, there used to be a centre in Southgate House, here in the centre of Cardiff—very convenient for public transport—and that has now closed. I know there was talk about the future of the centre in Newport. So, I'd like to hear, Gwnsler Cyffredinol, about what's happening with the Welsh tribunal centres.

I'd also like to hear when do you think we'll have an appeal tribunal here in Wales. When will it open? Not only will it be historical, but also it will make it far easier for people to know the appeal system, because it's all over the shop at the moment. I see the Welsh tribunals as playing a crucial role in access to justice, as Jenny Rathbone also mentioned.

There is no hearing fee in terms of the tribunals' cases; there is no need for a solicitor for cases in the tribunals. They've been designed so that it's easy for people to understand. It's done in a way that people are advised a great deal. It's much less adversarial than the courts system. So, what are the Counsel General's plans to expand that and to make it even easier for people to access Welsh tribunals?

Just to finish with the independence point—and I think this is important—as Sir Wyn Williams did say, justice must be seen to be done. The Welsh Tribunals unit—as you mentioned, and as has been stressed in every annual report by Sir Wyn—is independent, but the fact is it is based in Cathays Park, in the headquarters of Welsh Government, which could be a party in a tribunal. If this was happening in Westminster, we would rightly protest. It shouldn't happen in Wales, and it's not a good reflection on how we do things here in Wales. So, if not a non-ministerial department, what other options are you considering, Gwnsler Cyffredinol? Diolch yn fawr.

Like others in the debate this afternoon, I'd like to pay my own tribute to Sir Wyn Williams upon his retirement. It was good to be able to have the conversation with him last week at the committee. I think sometimes it demonstrates the power of actually being present with somebody in the same room, because we've had conversations on different occasions with Sir Wyn that have always been on the screen, virtual conversations, but last week we were able to have that face-to-face conversation, and it was very useful, particularly as in many ways it was a valedictory hearing, where we were listening to his reflections on his time as president of Welsh Tribunals, and where we were able to have not so much a hearing, but a conversation with Sir Wyn. It's certainly something that I felt was very valuable. I'm sure other committee members who were there also found it valuable. It's important, I think, that we're able to have these conversations as we move forward to reform the system.

I was greatly cheered by the response of the Counsel General to my earlier intervention in his speech. I think it is important that we look towards how we can ensure the independence of tribunals—proper independence from Government and from this place—and ensure that we do have a conversation about how we want to take these matters forward. I very much agree with the point that's just been made by Rhys ab Owen about the need for an appeal tribunal, an appeal process to be put in place, which also I think will strengthen the work of the tribunals.

When I was reading Sir Wyn's report, I must admit my eyes were dragged straight to the final chapter, where he says he wanted to make a few reflections. I agree very much with what he said, thanking people who were retiring. As an education Minister, I remember the work of Rhiannon Walker, and I think it is important that we put on record here today thanks to her for her work in her retirement.

It's also important to look at what the experience is in Wales and how that experience can be put to work for the future. I was very taken by what he said about the impact of COVID and the way that's challenged ways of working, and I think in terms of delivery of justice, it is important that we look again at what COVID has questioned in terms of our assumptions about how these things are supposed to operate. I think it is important that we look at the work of the tribunals from the point of view of the individual they are serving and not from the point of view of people who administer or run the tribunals. I think Sir Wyn had a number of very interesting points to make about how the impact of COVID had affected and strengthened, perhaps, the voice of people who are coming to a tribunal.

It's also important that we look again at some of the structures. I agree with what's been said this afternoon about the devolution of justice. Certainly, we hear some speeches from my left in this Chamber—from my right politically—against the devolution of justice, as if we're looking at driving some sort of wedge between the countries of the United Kingdom, that we want to separate, in some ways the—[Interruption.] You should listen to what I'm about to say; you'd learn something. In terms of addressing how we work together, what Sir Wyn said—[Interruption.] You haven't read the report. What he said at committee was that the way in which the tribunals worked together and learned from each other in England, Scotland, Northern Ireland and Wales was important. It is important that we work together. It is important that we learn from each other. But we can only work together and learn from each other if we have the freedom to take decisions free of each other as well. That is the point that somebody who's got far more experience of these matters was saying to us. I would suggest that Members would listen to that voice of experience.

In welcoming Sir Gary Hickinbottom to the role in the next few weeks, he is inheriting a system that has been in very good health, that has been maintained as a consequence of the work of the retiring president. But he also, of course, is inheriting a quite formidable list of challenges. The reform that the Counsel General spoke about is important. Sir Wyn also spoke about the location and the structures of the judiciary and the way in which judicial members of the tribunal are able to work together. I think he made some very good points to the committee, and I would encourage the Counsel General to read the transcript of that committee in order to refresh his own views of these matters.

In closing, Presiding Officer, it is impossible to look at these matters and to debate this report without an overview of the structures of governance. It is impossible to find any senior member of the judiciary who believes that the current structure of governance of justice does Wales and does the people of Wales any good at all. The sooner it is reformed from top to bottom, and the sooner these matters are devolved to this country, the better for us all.

The Counsel General to reply to the debate.

Diolch, Llywydd. I notice we are ahead of time. I'm enthused by the fact that this important subject has had so many contributions, so I hope it might give me a little bit of leeway if I try and answer some of those questions.

The first thing I'll deal with is Mark Isherwood's point, and the point that others made, on this issue of the model and the independence. I've absolutely no real disagreement with much of what's been said; I think it's really just about the timing and the process we go through to achieve it. His Majesty's Courts and Tribunals Service, of course, operates on an executive agency model. The other sort of model might be a Welsh Government sponsored body that would fulfil that particular function. 

I have a fairly firm view in my own mind in terms of the importance of a non-ministerial department. It also then leads, of course, to the need to create, in due course, a specific justice department here and a justice ministry, and so on. Those are probably matters for the next Senedd. I just think it's premature at this stage, on the back of this report, with a new president of tribunals coming in, before the White Paper, before we've actually introduced legislation, to be saying, 'This is the model that we're going to have'. I think if the amendment had basically confirmed the importance of the independence, I think there would be complete unity. So, it's not so much disagreeing with you, and I'm glad that you've actually brought an amendment because it's opened up that debate. I'm just not encouraging support for it because I think it's premature for that particular reason. 

On some of the other issues raised, Huw raised quite a number of issues about the White Paper and covering all options. Yes, it will cover all options, exactly that. It has to, basically, consider those, to analyse those, and then it'll be ultimately up to the Government to bring forward legislation, and then for the Senedd to consider that and to discuss those options and the correct model for that. 

You're absolutely right in terms of the tribunals, and the other points that Rhys made, and others, in terms of the location. I'm going to see the tribunal premises we have in Newport in Oak House. I do think, though, potentially looking ahead to the devolution of other areas of justice as well, we might need to look more broadly in terms of a location of a court service and tribunal service for Wales outside the buildings of Government, particularly in light of the comments I've made in the past about the situation and condition of the civil justice centre, and so on. Those are only things I touch on to explore, but I think there may well be options that are there. 

In terms of issues that Jenny Rathbone raised with regard to the mental health tribunal, of course, it is very significant in terms of numbers. Our tribunal system has to deal with the demand that is there. You'll see that although they've been mainly online hearings, a lot of choice has been given to enable individuals to choose which model that they want to have. With regard to the two salaried members, these are significant and substantial judicial positions. They are six-figure judicial positions. I think the issue may well be in terms of clarity over precisely what the job is, what the home of the judges effectively is, and probably the advertising of it. I'm confident that that will be resolved, but it reflects the importance particularly of the mental health tribunal situation. 

With regard to the Welsh language, I'm very much aware of that. I think a big issue on it is developing the confidence of people to actually participate within the court system, within the tribunal system. In many ways, they are an ideal model for the use of the Welsh language within that, because they have a certain less formality to them. But it is important that that is encouraged and supported. I raised it when I met with Sir Wyn Williams that there was an important issue there. He's confident, actually, that they have the chairs and the capacity to actually accommodate it. What is important is the encouragement and support for some of those tribunals to be held through the medium of the Welsh language. 

Llywydd, you've been very generous with me; I think I've probably gone on for far too long on some of these. The important question, of course, that has been raised is in terms of timescale, and so on. It's for the First Minister to make a statement, I think in July, in terms of the legislative programme. But I think the Welsh Government is clear that the reform needs to take place within this Senedd. Legislation will be brought forward. There will, no doubt, be announcements that are made in due course. The White Paper can, of course, continue in any event, and I'm sure there'll be further details in the very near future. 

Just one thing to conclude on, and that, of course, is the reference to the Thomas commission on the devolution of justice, and so on. Clearly, we are in a changing environment. The whole approach, I think, to justice, delivering justice and delivering justice better is at the core of it. The position we have with tribunals gives the opportunity to create that embryonic structure, really, with a set of tribunals, part of the administrative judicial system that has come to us on an ad hoc basis. What we are doing is creating not only a judicial system that will be of the highest excellence, but also that will create, as you said, the first ever, in the history of Wales, appellate structure. Diolch, Llywydd. 

The proposal is to agree amendment 1. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Yes, there is objection to amendment 1, and so we'll defer voting under this item entirely until voting time.

Voting deferred until voting time.