The next item is the debate on the Economy, Infrastructure and Skills Committee report on apprenticeships in Wales. I call on the Chair of the committee to move the motion—Russell George.

Motion NDM6716 Russell George

The National Assembly for Wales:

Notes the Economy, Infrastructure and Skills Committee’s report into Apprenticeships in Wales which was laid in the Table Office on 14 February 2018.

Motion moved.

Diolch, Deputy Presiding Officer. I move the motion. Over the last 15 months or so, the Economy, Infrastructure and Skills Committee has been somewhat obsessed with apprenticeships. In addition to the report we're debating today, we've also reported on the introduction of the UK Government's apprenticeship levy, and just last month we scrutinised the Minister again, assessing the impact of that levy one year on. We have dedicated so much of the committee's time to apprenticeships because we think they are important. Apprenticeships matter: they offer a great way for people to earn as they learn and for employers to invest in the skills their businesses need. Whilst we've badged this piece of work an 'inquiry into apprenticeships', the terms of reference were fairly wide-ranging and allowed us to look at issues including careers advice and aspects of vocational training in general. I'm sure today's debate will be equally wide-ranging.

In my contribution today, I do want to focus on the key appeal that the committee has issued. In our evidence, we heard from providers, apprentices and young people who hadn't gone down that route, and we heard a number of times that economic barriers—the cost of travel, the cost of buying a suit for an interview, et cetera—can prevent young people from taking up opportunities, and our response to this was to question the Government on what they can do, and we made two recommendations in that regard. Our recommendation 6 was that the Welsh Government should create a competitive hardship fund for apprentices on the lowest pay levels, or create other concessions, such as concessionary bus or rail cards, as exist for other students.

Our recommendation 7 was that the Welsh Government should establish a universal grant to cover living costs for all apprentices, as is due to be available for Welsh university students from 2018-19. At the heart of this debate, I think, at the heart of this question, is fairness. And I think there's probably widespread agreement across this Chamber that we consider academic and vocational learning equal—that there is parity between the two routes. But what we haven't yet achieved is parity of support for students going down both routes. So, I think there is a strong and compelling moral case for the Welsh Government to apply similar levels of support to apprentices as would be available to their peers in full-time higher education.

In adverts to promote its new package of measures for university students, the Welsh Government has declared it to be the most generous student support package in the UK and level of support that young people heading off to university can expect. I'll say it again: the most generous support package in the UK. So, today, I want to use this opportunity in this debate to call for Wales's apprentices to have an equally generous support package.

Will you take an intervention?

Yes.

Thank you. I think this parity point is particularly important, and I'm thinking of young adult carers who, at the moment, have financial disincentives for not going into higher education or, indeed, apprenticeships. When Welsh Government is listening and thinking how to respond to this report, would you agree with me that they should be considering ways to help young adult carers into apprenticeships, but also make it easier for businesses to take on young adult carers with a slightly less consistent ability to attend?

Thank you, Suzy. I don't think we had that precise evidence in the inquiry, but I think what you said is in line with the committee's thinking as well, and I suppose very much it feeds into our recommendations 6 and 7, which, I was about to go on to say, the Government has accepted, actually, in principle, pending the completion of ongoing consultation. I think I'm accepting of that; I accept that point as a sensible step. But I do trust that any delay will be short and that action will follow swiftly.

Providing parity of support, I think, is important in itself, but it also reinforces the message that both routes are equally important and valid. That message is an important one, as one of our findings was that perceptions of apprenticeships can lag behind the reality in the minds of parents and teachers. As a committee, we felt that there was more that the Welsh Government could do to support employers in raising awareness among a wider range of young people of the benefits of apprenticeships. The Government has rejected this recommendation on the grounds that it already provides extensive information. But I do have to say that's a shame, as it was clear to us that, whatever information is available, it hasn't reached everyone who needs it, and many young people still feel their teachers and parents aren't giving enough support and encouragement to vocational routes.

The Welsh Government's latest figures show a 60/40 gender split among all apprentices, with women in the majority. But, on digging further, there remains a stubborn gender difference in particular sectors. So, the committee recommended that there should be no let-up in the support to tackling the wider prejudices and conventions regarding gender and careers and that the widest opportunity is available to all. I'm pleased that the Welsh Government has accepted this recommendation.

The Welsh Government also accepted our call for more action to be put to the under-representation of disabled people. Written evidence from Remploy highlighted that only 2.7 per cent of learners in work-based learning provision, and 1.3 per cent of apprenticeships in Wales, are disabled. This compares to 9 per cent in England. So, I do look forward to some progress being made in that area.

Both in this inquiry and in our recent review of the apprenticeship levy, there was a growing concern that Wales has fallen behind England in the roll-out of degree apprenticeships. There are around 10,000 degree apprenticeships in England this academic year, compared to none in Wales. So, the committee recommended that the Welsh Government sets a deadline for the teaching of degree apprenticeships, but that has been rejected. The Minister has said that the money is available and that it is up to universities, as autonomous bodies, to determine when they start. But who is at fault is not really of concern to me or the committee; the issue is a growing perception in Wales that Wales is lagging behind. I would urge the Minister for skills and, indeed, the Cabinet Secretary for Education to bring their influence to bear so that Wales picks up the pace when it comes to degree apprenticeships.

Our final recommendation was that Estyn should consider how best to include in its inspections the availability and quality of careers advice on vocational courses and training, including apprenticeships in schools. While Estyn do look at careers advice, it's not often a priority area, and we wanted to move it up the agenda. Schoolteachers—most of them—who themselves followed an academic pathway will naturally think that that route is suitable for other young people. And the funding regime, of course, is also all about retaining young people in a school's own sixth form, because of the positive impact that that has on school funding. So, there's a built-in incentive there to showcase that route.

So, Deputy Presiding Officer, at the very least, I hope that this debate and the publicity around it will encourage young people and the teachers and parents they lean on for advice to look at apprenticeships as a positive life option and the opportunities that they offer. I look forward to the debate this afternoon.

Can I thank the committee for their very detailed report on the work that they did from their inquiry? I want to take the opportunity to talk more widely about apprenticeships, before making some comments that I think are probably relevant to recommendations 6 and 7 around apprentice pay.

It's clear to me that well-structured training can deliver the skilled workforces that we require, and that remains vital to the future health of the economy in communities across Wales, especially for improving opportunities in our Valleys communities. Apprenticeship opportunities are key for many local economies and I know the value of them in Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney. Companies like General Dynamics Land Systems UK in Pentrebach have a strong and successful record on apprenticeships, working closely with Merthyr college to deliver the skills that are needed in order to deliver its cutting-edge Ajax family of vehicles to the British army. In south Wales, General Dynamics Land Systems UK currently delivers two four-year apprenticeships in mechanical manufacturing and engineering technical support. Its current 12 apprentices—a number that is growing year on year—will receive an NVQ level 3 and higher national certificate in their fields, and the company is also branching out to provide apprenticeships in non-engineering fields such as quality and facilities. This shows a clear commitment from the company to the constituency, to its employees, and, particularly, to young people, and that is the good news about apprenticeships.

In contrast, however, the apprenticeship pay survey 2016, which was undertaken by the UK Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy, points to a number of issues that should concern us, and this links directly with recommendations 6 and 7 around pay levels and the cost of living for apprentices. I was particularly interested in the data around compliance with the national minimum wage and the national living wage. While acknowledging methodology issues and changes in the rates applicable, the survey identifies that, in 14 per cent of cases in Wales, apprentices at levels 2 and 3 were paid below the appropriate minimum wage or national living wage, and that has to be a worry. Furthermore, the survey highlighted that the proportion of apprentices with non-compliant pay increased among those aged 19 to 20 in the second year of their apprenticeship—a further cause for worry.

Of course, the responsibility to make sure that apprentices are treated fairly rests with the employer, but businesses clearly need to understand those responsibilities. Research from the Learning and Work Institute Cymru found that a fifth of employers hadn't heard about the apprentice minimum wage and that more than 40 per cent didn't know that off-the-job training needed to be paid. But, most importantly for me, the survey highlights the importance of the UK Government ensuring compliance with such important legislation, and while I'm supportive of the proposals for additional support to apprentices that are set out in the report, we must look to the UK Government to more rigorously uphold the minimum wage and the living wage as that, in turn, secures fairness for everyone, including apprentices.

Usefully, the Learning and Work Institute recommended action in three crucial areas: firstly, around raising employer awareness so that all employers are aware of the rules; secondly, clear information setting out minimum wage entitlements at the start of an apprenticeship and more responsibility on training providers to ensure that this happens; and thirdly, better enforcement and support for apprentices when there is a problem. I would add here that I think there is also a responsibility on trade unions to prioritise organising and support for apprentices.

Because we all know that apprenticeships can be an exciting pathway to a successful job and career, and we also know that this Welsh Government is committed to a fair work agenda. So, I hope that the Minister would agree that a new fair work commission should take a look at the findings of the survey that I've been quoting from and that it should also be looked at when implementing the new economic contract. I hope that Welsh Government consider how, going forward, the research can also help to further shape our apprenticeship programme in Wales to ensure that those taking up apprenticeships are fairly treated. Finally, I hope that the Minister will be able to write to the UK Government pressing the case for more rigorous enforcement of apprenticeship wages. These are hard-fought-for rights that no Government should allow to be flouted on their watch.

Our inquiry into apprenticeships in Wales exposed concerns that the number of disabled apprentices in Wales is far below the rate achieved in England, that economic barriers are preventing young people from taking up opportunities, that a stubborn gender segregation remained and that a lack of providers may be preventing young people from undertaking apprenticeships through the medium of Welsh.

In accepting our recommendation on gender and careers, the Welsh Government noted that although 60 per cent of learners pursuing an apprenticeship were female, this—quote—

'masks gender disparity in some sectors.'

In accepting our recommendation that they should produce a clear, disabled-person-specific action plan to address the under-representation of disabled people in apprenticeships, after 19 years in power, the Welsh Government said that they are—quote—

'committed to improving our approach'.

They state that they have been working with Remploy to match those who are participating in the Work Choice programme into apprenticeship opportunities and have introduced a case worker approach with the aid of designated Remploy apprenticeship co-ordinators. Well, last month, I visited Remploy Wrexham to discuss the launch of the UK Government employment support programme, Work and Health Programme Wales, and to sit in on a training session with customers. The Welsh Government must therefore provide assurance that its new employability programme adds to rather than replicates this, and this should be included in the annual progress report on implementation of its employability plan, which it pledges to provide to the committee in response to our recommendation 11.

In stating that it is in the process of setting up an inclusive apprenticeship working group comprising of representatives from disability organisations across Wales, which—quote—

'will produce an Apprenticeships Disability Action Plan',  we'll need assurance that it will act on the explanation by Disability Arts Cymru that the difference between disability equality training and disability awareness training is that disability awareness training is often led by non-disabled people who are professionals in the medical or caring professions. This training has a medical focus, it informs participants about disabled people's impairments and ways of overcoming disability, whereas disability equality training is always led by trainers who are disabled people. The focus is on disabled and non-disabled people working together to overcome the disabling barriers in society. This training has a holistic focus, recognising that removing the physical, financial and attitudinal barriers will create a more inclusive, accessible society. That is core. That is key.

In rejecting our recommendation that they should provide more support to employers in raising awareness among a wider range of young people of the benefits of apprenticeships, the Welsh Government then provides a list of the information it already provides. However, this neither addresses the written evidence from Remploy, highlighting that only 2.7 per cent of learners in work-based learning provision and 1.3 per cent of apprentices in Wales are disabled, compared to 9 per cent in England, nor Remploy's suggestion that one of the reasons for this is a lack of awareness of apprenticeships by parents, employers and learners.

The young people we met at the Prince's Trust detailed the financial barriers that prevent young people from taking up apprenticeships. In only accepting in principle that it should create a competitive hardship fund for apprenticeships on the lowest pay levels, or create other concessions such as concessionary bus or rail cards, as exist for other students, the Welsh Government states that this would need to be considered—quote—

'against the outcome of the Discounted Bus Travel for Young Persons in Wales consultation.'

However, this closed four months ago. While the Welsh Government states that it responds to most consultations in 12 weeks, ITV Wales reported on Monday that the Welsh Government has failed to respond to nearly a third of its consultations launched since the election two years ago. Let's hope this is not another one. And although it states that subsidising travel costs is likely to be classified as a UK taxable benefit, NUS Wales point out that local authorities in Sheffield, Liverpool and the west midlands have already introduced similar plans.

Their acceptance in principle only of our recommendation that they should provide the committee with an annual update covering all protected characteristics and access from low-income communities is not acceptable. The committee is clear that apprentices in Wales are not yet fully representative of the wider society they're drawn from. Reform's recent report on the apprenticeship programme in England concluded that if the necessary changes they describe were made, then apprentices, taxpayers and employers across the country stand to benefit for many years to come. 

Can you wind up, please?

It is noted that there has not been an equivalent progress report on the apprenticeship programme in Wales.

I'd like to thank the Members of the Economy, Infrastructure and Skills Committee for producing this report—thank you—on apprenticeships in Wales. It is clear that qualitative apprenticeships play an essential role in our economic success, as well as in building a stronger, fairer and more equal Wales. I'm proud of the Welsh Government's commitment to create 100,000 apprenticeships by the time of the next Assembly elections. These are qualitative apprenticeships, meaningful and targeted, as identified by the OECD interest in our wider economic action plan. There is much for us to be proud of, but of course this report identifies there is more that can be done.

I am glad that the Welsh Government has accepted the report's recommendation to do more to tackle gender prejudice and wider access to apprenticeships. As has been said, although 60 per cent of those pursuing an apprenticeship are female, they are too often guided towards lower-paid sectors and, despite many educational initiatives, are noticeably absent from STEM subjects. It is vital that we tackle such gender disparities if we are to build a fairer and more equal Wales, and so I very much welcome the Welsh Government's platform of wider initiatives on STEM and its response pledging to do more to get women into these priority sectors, including the clear expectation on progression pathways needed to close the gender pay gap, and the fair work commission agenda. 

Indeed, just this morning, the Equality, Local Government and Communities Committee was hearing about the role of apprenticeships in tackling the gender pay gap through getting more women into predominantly male employment sectors such as engineering. It is right, and it is an expectation in Wales, that employers and apprentice providers adhere to the equality toolkit, which includes modules on gender identity, stereotyping and unconscious bias. This importance attached to ending the inequality and the gender pay gap is critical to the Welsh Government's calls for action, the economic action plan, and the economic contract, which the OECD and the World Economic Forum are exemplifying in Wales.

I also welcome the report's recommendation to do more to tackle the under-representation of disabled people in apprenticeships. The establishment of an inclusive apprenticeships working group, which will publish an apprenticeships disability action plan, is also a welcome development, and it is vital that we reduce the barriers currently preventing disabled people from accessing apprenticeships.

In an era of enforced austerity from the UK Tory Government, some barriers to accessing apprenticeships are also very much financial, including the report’s finding that transport to and from training or learning centres takes up to 20 per cent of apprentices' wages. Again, it is right that the Welsh Government has accepted in principle the committee’s recommendation to create a hardship fund for the apprentices on the lowest pay, or create other concessionary travel rates. I understand consultations are currently being reviewed on these issues, and that there are concerns that concessions to apprenticeships could amount to a taxable benefit. As such, I would like to ask if the Welsh Government has yet spoken to local authorities in Liverpool, Sheffield and the west midlands who have introduced similar schemes.

So, to conclude, I wish to commend the stance that Wales has taken in the provision of qualitative and targeted apprenticeships in Wales, and will continue to enhance them, I believe, for the future workforce and the future productivity of a fair Wales.

I want to look at three particular areas—and I'm looking forward to hear the Minister’s comments on these three areas—starting with recommendation 1, relating to prejudice on the grounds of gender. Of course, unfortunately, some of the conclusions in the report aren't new to us, and certainly, in autumn of 2012, the Enterprise and Business Committee raised the importance of tackling these issues in order to expand access. A recommendation was accepted that the Welsh Government should monitor differences between genders in apprenticeships, the reasons for those differences, and to consider the possibility of setting targets for improving recruitment rates for women in apprenticeships in the priority sectors for the economy.

Accepted also, back in 2012, was the recommendation that training should be provided on gender equality for professionals in the field of careers and educating to correct any stereotyping in the advice that they give to young people. But, unfortunately, of course, over five years after publishing that report and accepting those recommendations, only 1.6 per cent of construction apprenticeships and 3.1 per cent of engineering apprenticeships are held by women, as opposed to 96 per cent of childcare and teaching and development apprenticeships and 91 per cent of hairdressing apprenticeships that are held by women. So, this does raise questions about the steps that have been taken by your Government over the past five years to get to grips with this issue, and it raises a question also about whether you will be genuinely taking action on the recommendations that have been made by this committee.

We discussed this morning, in the equality committee, the role that the economic contract can play in being used to try to get rid of some of these stereotypes. Even though this committee hasn’t considered this issue, I wonder what your comments would be. Could this contract be used with regard to apprenticeships as well to try to tackle some of the stereotypes on the basis of gender?

Secondly, I want to look at the aspect of the Welsh language and apprenticeships through the medium of the Welsh language. Again, the gap in the likely demand for apprenticeships through the medium of Welsh and the ability to meet that demand—. That isn’t unexpected either. The number of apprenticeships offered through the medium of Welsh has been extremely low for years. In 2014-15, only 0.3 per cent, or 140 apprenticeships, were completed through the medium of Welsh, out of well over 48,000 apprenticeships. The Welsh Government’s response to criticism of the situation was to change the way that the statistics are gathered, by publishing a figure for the number of apprenticeships with some element of bilingual teaching—and that could mean as little as introducing one bilingual resource to the students. Clearly, we need to get to grips with the situation in order to reach 1 million Welsh speakers by 2050, and also to fill the gaps in skills in areas such as social care, where there is a need for Welsh speakers to provide services for Welsh speakers.

The decision to extend the responsibilities of the coleg Cymraeg to include further education colleges and workplace learning is to be welcomed, but we need a sufficient budget for that work and in order to increase the proportion of apprenticeships that are completed through the medium of Welsh.

Finally, and very quickly: even though the committee doesn't mention the apprenticeships levy from the point of view of the police—please forgive me for wandering into this field—it is a cause for concern because a year after the apprenticeships levy was introduced, it's still unclear who has the responsibility for the levy. My colleague the Member of Parliament for Dwyfor Meirionnydd, Liz Saville Roberts, has received contradictory information—information from you that it's a matter that is reserved on a UK level, and information from the Minister for police also, which states that they're not responsible for police training. So, nobody's taking responsibility for training police, and nobody's taking responsibility for the apprenticeships, which would be very beneficial, of course, in this area. So, I would like to use this opportunity just to ask the Welsh Government to explain what's happening with apprenticeships for the police and the levy in that regard. Thank you.

I'm delighted to have this opportunity to speak in this debate today. I want to take this opportunity to thank the committee and all its members for this very important report. Despite not being a member of this committee, Members will know that I take a great interest in apprenticeships, having been an apprentice myself before entering the Assembly. With that in mind, I could spend great time today speaking about this issue, but in the interests of time, I want to focus my contribution on three main issues: one, apprentice trainers; two, automation; and, finally, emotional intelligence.

At age 17, at the start of the fourth Assembly—for Members who are interested—I started my apprenticeship at a local firm on Deeside industrial estate. That apprenticeship gave me the opportunity to work, learn and earn, and I am delighted that the Welsh Government has a commitment to creating a minimum of 100,000 high-quality apprenticeships in Wales over this Assembly term. With that said, I hope the Government looks seriously at the issue of trainers. We know that once an apprentice has served his or her time, it takes a few years to get the relevant experience as a fully served and skilled tradesperson. I want to take this point now to pay tribute to John Steele, who recently retired from my workplace—the workplace where I was fortunate to do my apprenticeship. He was my mentor, my friend, and his retirement raises so many serious questions about how we ensure firms across Wales have the people with relevant experiences and skills to train the next generation of apprentices.

Automation is another big issue that will impact on the type of apprenticeships that we will need in the future. Members will be aware of the recent statistics that were recently raised on this matter. They revealed that the proportion of jobs at risk of automation by the early 2030s in Wales varies from 26 per cent to over 36 per cent. My constituency in Alyn and Deeside was highlighted as the constituency that had the highest percentage of jobs at risk through automation, with 36 per cent. Now, I agree completely with the future generations of Wales commissioner when she says that, instead of asking what automation will take away from us, we should be asking how automation can help us improve our public services and the well-being of our lives and communities. We should be embracing automation as a huge economic opportunity, but at the same time ensure that we have a strategy for dealing with the risks of these technologies.

At this point now, it is important to recognise and highlight the importance of emotional intelligence. Now, we've all been here and we've all been there: you're ordering tickets to an event online, you're almost done, but that annoying screen pops up and makes you type some blurry letters and some numbers, right at the end, into a box. Now, this is a step, as most people know, to ensure that you are just a person buying a ticket to your favourite concert or football match, and you are not a computer programme deployed to grab a bunch of seats. Now, it's that level of emotional intelligence that will ensure the next generation of workers does not lose out as a result of automation. We urgently need to identify those who are most likely to be hardest hit by automation, and to develop targeted measures to help those people. That must include financial and psychological support, as well as the upskilling of the workforce.

Finally, in closing, I welcome the publication of this report and look forward to working with Members from across the Chamber as well as the Welsh Government in ensuring that we have high-skilled, well-paid, quality apprenticeships for our future generations in Wales. Diolch.

We welcome the Welsh Government's generally good response to our report, though of course we are disappointed that it chose to reject some of our recommendations. The Enterprise, Innovation and Skills Committee's inquiry into apprenticeship delivery in Wales showed that there is now a consensus across both industry and the education sectors that apprenticeships have, for far too long, been a neglected element of our skills enhancement process. We are of course now reaping the results of this neglect in the emergence of a dearth of suitably qualified personnel required at all levels in both our business and public sectors. It is gratifying to note, however, that the education providers, both at further education and higher education levels, are now embracing this vital part of our economic base, and there really does appear to be a sea-change emphasis on making qualifications more applicable to business needs.

In order to alleviate this imbalance between the needs of the business and public sector and a suitably skilled workforce, there must be a greater emphasis on work-based skills enhancement, and an expansion of technical facilities in our colleges that are more aligned to the needs of the workplace. The evidence the committee gathered does suggest there is a strong apprenticeship base in Wales, but there are glaring deficiencies in some areas, particularly with regard to apprenticeships for the disabled, which figures show are much worse in Wales than in England. This must be an area of high priority for all those involved in the delivery of apprenticeships. We also found that Welsh-language based apprenticeships are not adequately provided for, where it appears that there is a distinct lack of suitably qualified teaching staff in Welsh-language apprenticeship frameworks.

One vitally important area where our inquiry has indicated deficiencies was in the provision of adequate information and pathways in our schools with regard to apprenticeship opportunities. It is now incumbent on all agencies, schools, colleagues and FE establishments to promote the pathways to vocational skills as an alternative to academic qualifications. Allied to this must be a greater involvement of business with the educational sector. Our inquiry did indicate the Welsh Government is putting policies in place to address these issues.

In order to ensure that we had the relevant numbers taking the apprenticeship route, it is absolutely vital that all agencies involved embark on a strategy to ensure that there is an equality of esteem between vocational and academic achievement. However, as the National Union of Students point out, there can be no equality of esteem between vocational and academic qualifications without equality of funding. This must be addressed as a priority by the Welsh Government.

In conclusion, the partnership between education and business is crucial to make sure we have the correct skills base to drive the Welsh economy forward in the twenty-first century.

I'll keep my contribution short, given that we're so pressed for time. I wanted to make the case for higher level apprenticeships and the fact that development of degree apprenticeships in Wales is at level 6. I think there are universities that are ready to provide degree-level apprenticeships at Master's level. I think that's a significant way forward that will, certainly from the evidence in England, suggest that degree-level apprenticeships will be taken up in STEM subjects by women who want to study those subjects, as well as amongst learners from areas of traditionally low participation in higher education. Therefore, a Master's progression is quite important.

I'm pleased that the Welsh Government has accepted recommendations 9 and 10 regarding the need for clarity and security when it comes to the funding of degree apprenticeships. But I also think—. I'm concerned about the rejection of recommendation 12, which says that the universities are autonomously responsible for the design and delivery of their courses, but I would like an opportunity to scrutinise, in this Chamber or in committee, the roll-out of degree apprenticeships across Wales. I fear that if it is just left only to universities, they will do a good job, but the democratic accountability may well be missing. So, I think that's quite important.

I'd also like to pick up on a point made by Siân Gwenllian. I spoke to my predecessor yesterday, Jeff Cuthbert, my predecessor as an Assembly Member for Caerphilly—I'd say to the Chamber I've no plans to ever become a police and crime commissioner, but he is currently the police and crime commissioner for my region—and he raised that concern about the £2.8 million in apprenticeship levy that goes to the UK and the police service is unable to draw on it. It's a massively significant issue that doesn't happen in England and it is a controversial one. It is bizarre that the Treasury then expects the Welsh Government to fund vocational training in the police force and, therefore, I would urge the Minister and the Government to raise this with their counterparts in the UK. And, with that, I think I will draw my comments short, perhaps to give someone else the time to contribute.

I welcome the committee report, which addresses issues regarding one of the greatest challenges facing the Welsh Government: how to address the skill gap in Wales. The British Chamber of Commerce's quarterly economic survey for the final quarter of 2017 indicates that skill shortages are reaching critical levels. Firms in the services and manufacturing sectors report difficulties in recruitment. They claim that the survey results emphasise the need to kick-start the economy by addressing the barriers to growth, in particular the growing skills gap that is hindering the ability of companies to find the workers that they need to develop. Commenting on results, the director general of the British Chamber of Commerce said:

'Labour and skills shortages are set to be the biggest potential drag anchor on business in 2018, since ultimately it is people that make businesses work.'

Having skills can greatly add to a worker's potential earning in Wales because skilled workers are in such short supply here. I am concerned that the Welsh Government is failing to promote the benefits that apprenticeships can bring to students at early stages. Career information in schools about apprenticeships is vital if we are to increase the supply of trained workers that our economy desperately needs. The committee notes issues with the quality and availability of careers advice, including the lack of trained careers advisers, and the lack of knowledge of apprenticeships and vocational training among school staff. Schools also exhibit a tendency of encouraging pupils towards the study of A-levels. Further education and work-based learning organisations need greater access to schools to broaden the range of advice that young people receive about their future prospects. By doing so, I am confident that this will go some way to tackling the worrying gender imbalance and under-representation of disabled people that we currently see in apprenticeships in Wales.

Having encouraged young people to take up an apprenticeship, we must now look at the level of support we provide them with. There is substantial evidence that financial barriers, such as transport costs, are discouraging and, in some cases, preventing young people from taking up apprenticeships. The committee calls on Welsh Government to create a competitive hardship fund for apprentices on the lowest pay level or to create other concessions, such as concessionary bus or rail cards as already exist for some students in other parts of the United Kingdom. In October last year, the Welsh Conservatives pledged to give free bus travel and a third off the cost of rail tickets to all 16 to 24-year-olds in Wales. Last month, Jeremy Corbyn announced plans to give under-25s in England free bus travel. So, it would be ironic indeed if we in Wales, the only nation in the United Kingdom where Labour is in power, denied our young people the support they need to access the skills needed to build our future economy.

I would like to say a few words about digital skills in Wales also. Nearly half of all small businesses in Wales lack the business digital skills that could help them to improve productivity and save costs. One of the barriers holding Welsh firms back from doing more online is a lack of staff with digital skills. Deputy Presiding Officer, I believe the recommendation in this report represents a potential major step forward in boosting the number of apprenticeships and providing Wales with the skilled workforce that is needed now and in the future.

In Wales, Deputy Presiding Officer, I have learned to fly, and I know people 20 years ago used to go for vocational training to get their pilot licence. I'm pretty sure a number of world airlines must be employing those pilots, those who are actually not doing other things—they became pilots and serve their nations. If the Conservatives come into power, there are a couple of areas we shall certainly do: gender, age and NEETs—not in education, training or employment. These people, we'll make sure they will learn for their full potential in life according to their aptitude test. We must have some sort of system in the education department to make sure that our children grow and achieve their full potential in life, according to their aptitude and ability in life, no matter whether able, disabled, man, woman, young or old. They will all be equal in the eyes of the Conservative Party. Thank you.

As a member of the committee, I was very pleased to take part in this inquiry, and I'll keep my contribution short and focus on a few recommendations. Firstly, recommendation 6, which calls for a competitive hardship fund for apprentices, and also for the extension of concessions such as travel schemes to apprentices too. That, I feel, links in with recommendation 7, which calls for the establishment of a universal grant to cover living costs for all apprentices.

I think they cover different aspects of a single challenge, and that is ensuring parity between apprentices and students, between the vocational and the academic. The evidence that we took from witnesses on this was very clear. The Construction Industry Training Board, the south west and mid Wales regional skills partnership and the Federation of Small Businesses all agreed that much more work needed to be done in this area. The FSB noted that support for university students was predicated on equivalency with the living wage, but that that is currently not the case for apprenticeship funding.

Clearly, financial hardships are a barrier preventing people from more disadvantaged backgrounds from taking up apprenticeships. So, there is a need to make provision so that economic barriers are not the sole factor dissuading potential applicants. Moreover, there is the need, as others have said, to promote parity of esteem between study in higher education and apprenticeships. Countries like Germany do this so well and if we could have that shift in this country, it would be a wonderful thing.

I know that the Welsh Government has accepted both of these recommendations in principle and that work is ongoing. I look forward to future updates from Ministers so we can ensure that our apprentices do get a fair deal and do get parity of esteem.

I'd like to finally briefly consider recommendation 3. This sets out our finding that more support should be provided to employers so that they can raise awareness about the benefits of apprenticeships amongst a wider cross-section of young people. I feel personally it's unfortunate that the Welsh Government has rejected this recommendation. I note the range of mechanisms by which they currently make available information on the benefits of apprenticeships and the various engagement devices outlined in the Welsh Government’s response to recommendation 14 too.

However, from my background in secondary education, I know that far too often our young people are really not fully aware of the range of apprenticeships that are out there, or the benefits that they can bring to their career development. Often, responsibility for conveying this message falls onto teachers. With so many pressures already on the school timetable, it is not always possible for teachers to gain the expertise they need to understand and therefore adequately promote the benefits of modern apprenticeships. Employers who take on apprentices, who may be former apprentices themselves, are surely better placed to champion the opportunities in this career path; to explain the benefits and challenges inherent in choosing a non-university pathway; and also to note the possibilities of success in that area too, just like our colleague Jack Sargeant. So, I would hope that more work could be done in this area. Thank you.

Thank you. And finally, Joyce Watson. 

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. I want to focus on help that is available to the Government and the people that you already work with in breaking down some of the perceptions of what an apprentice looks like, and what an apprenticeship is. The Institution of Civil Engineers do have a fabulous school programme that involves building a bridge, and they take it around schools and give students a real opportunity for hands-on. The Construction Industry Training Board also have similar schemes.

What I found and what came out of our evidence gathering, following on from what Vikki said, was that where people were located in an area where apprenticeships were fairly evident, like in a local industry, whether that was energy or aerospace or anything else, they were fully aware, their parents were fully aware, and they were engaged with the opportunities of apprenticeships. But, the further that you moved out from such geographic locations, the less awareness there was, so that puts the onus firmly and squarely on others helping to lift and encourage and promote the apprenticeships within those communities. 

There is real innovation that is happening in existing opportunities. For example, there's huge innovation that's going on in the construction industry that's not fully understood, and it's not fully understood by the people who are trying to help the pupils understand those opportunities. And if it was, I think we could remove the gender gap within that industry virtually overnight. So, my ask of you, Minister, is this: to try and engage with those people who are not currently within schools, with the industries themselves, and feed back to those people who ought to be giving career advice about the innovation and the possibilities within the apprenticeship structure that is currently available, but is quickly changing.  

I call the Minister for Welsh Language and Lifelong Learning, Eluned Morgan. 

Thank you very much and thank you for the debate this afternoon. May I give particular thanks to Russell and the committee for their recommendations? You will be aware that we have accepted the vast majority of those recommendations, and I'd like to discuss a few of them now.  

Our work in Wales and apprenticeship programmes, you will be aware I'm sure, are trying to reshape the skills landscape in order, as Mohammad Asghar set out, to change the fact that we need to meet the challenges of the new economy. Members will be aware that it is one of our flagship programmes in the Welsh Government. We've got a target of 100,000 high-quality new apprenticeships, and that's aimed at generating growth and investment. I'm delighted to report that we are hitting that target; we're on target to meet that projection. 

We are seeing a growth in the number of apprenticeships here in Wales, whilst seeing what's happened in England because of the introduction of the apprenticeship levy—a levy that was introduced with no consultation with the Welsh Government at all. What we've seen there is a drop of 40 per cent in apprenticeship numbers, according to the Reform think tank in England. So, we're doing much better than they're doing in England, but let me make it clear that we're not just interested in numbers, and I think this is the mistake that England has made. 

We won't dilute and demote that apprenticeship brand here in Wales, because what you've got in England are baristas serving coffee who've been given apprenticeships, or people being given the title of an apprentice when they're paid extremely low wages with the prospect that, if they're lucky, they might get a job in the gig economy. That's not the kind of thing that we are aspiring to here in Wales. So, our interest is in modernising the apprenticeships to meet the changing needs of the economy and raising the quality and relevance of apprenticeships.

Mark Isherwood rose—

Mark, yes.

You refer, as I did in my conclusion, to the Reform report, and, of course, that spared no blushes for the UK Government, but it also made a series of proposed changes, and it said that the UK Government's approach was, in principle, the right approach and that, if these changes were implemented, it would set things right for years to come. Why won't the Welsh Government therefore consider the findings of that report in the context of the cross-border provision in Wales, which is so critical for so many thousands of young learners?

There's a whole host of reasons why we are not going to follow the English example. A 40 per cent drop is one of the reasons, but also we're absolutely focused on quality so I'm not going to take any lessons from England on this.

I think that one of the biggest challenges facing us in Wales today is in-work poverty, and the fact is that 40 per cent of the people who use food banks in Wales are in work. So, the problem that many people face, particularly those with low qualifications, is that low-paid work is not providing a stepping stone to those higher paid jobs and people are being trapped in low pay.

Dawn, I'm very aware of the fact that there are lots of issues in relation to low pay around this area. We in the Welsh Government are keeping a very close eye on compliance in relation to the minimum wage, and I think it's a good point that you make that we should make sure that the fair work commission addresses this issue, and I'll make a commitment to write to the fair work commission to address this issue once it's established. 

We think, as a Government, that it's our responsibility to help people to break out of that cycle of low skills and low pay and to support people into higher level apprenticeships and to help people onto that ladder of opportunity. What we know is that the challenges of the future will be different from those of the past, and I'd like to agree wholeheartedly with Jack Sargeant when he says that what we need is a different response in an age of new technology and automation that's going to change the nature of the workplace. And that's why we are focused on expanding the number of higher level apprenticeships and why we've got this situation now where we've convened an expert panel to look at how automation and digital will impact on the economy in future. But I take the point—and I'm not happy with the point—that, at the moment, as Vikki Howells has suggested, we haven't reached a stage where we do have parity of esteem between academic and vocational qualifications. I think it's really important that we keep our focus on that.

There is a UK Government review in terms of post-18 education, and we will await the report of that expert panel. And at that point I think it's important that we do then review in particular the hardship fund that we are interested in looking at and the discounted travel for young people. So, those things are absolutely firmly on our agenda.

Our goal is to double the number of higher apprenticeships with a focus on STEM and to create that new generation of professionals who are going to drive innovative practice, create new products and raise productivity levels. I think that Joyce is absolutely right: there's a lot we've done already in relation to raising awareness. Civil engineers, they're doing a great job going into schools, as she's suggested. But I think that probably Vikki has a point that we could do more in relation to teaching the teachers about apprenticeships. 

We've also developed these new routes to apprenticeships through introducing these degree apprenticeships, from this September. As you've heard, we're working with the Higher Education Funding Council for Wales to develop those degree apprenticeships. We want to get this right, so we're not chasing numbers and we're not chasing date targets. I actually think that it's probably too early for us to look at a Master's at this level. Let's get the degree apprenticeships right before we go on to Master's.

Let me be clear in relation to apprenticeships also that we are committed to driving inclusivity, equality and diversity. And, on the issue of gender parity, we've instructed apprenticeship providers to give extra support and mentoring to tackle gender stereotyping, for example, through encouraging more women to enter the construction profession. We've also been working with the Equality and Human Rights Commission to promote—

Will the Minister take an intervention? 

Yes, if you'd like.

Thank you. I was listening to Siân Gwenllian's comments earlier, and she mentioned the Economy and Business Committee report from 2012. I might be one of the few people who still have a copy of it up in my wardrobe upstairs, and recommendations 16 and 17 are not word for word exactly, but say exactly what you've just said, Minister:

'Provide gender equality training for careers advisers and teaching professionals to redress any stereotyping in the advice they give.'

That was six years ago, actually, now, Siân. Clearly, we're still looking at dealing with those problems. Can you tell us what you're going to do to make sure that in six years' time we're not still facing the same problem?

Well, we've got a whole suite of measures where we are promoting, trying to get women into these areas. This is not an easy task—this is not easy. If anyone's got any good ideas, then let us know, because it is a very, very difficult task. What we have introduced is these 'have a go' days. Sometimes, these are specifically targeted at women to try and make sure that they have a go at welding and trying these professions that perhaps they won't have thought of going into. So, we're doing our best; we're encouraging it. I'm trying my best with my own daughter, but you can go so far, and, at the end of the day, I think we've got to make this fun for them and introduce them really early, which is why STEM has got to start in school. You've got to start at a very, very young age and that's what is happening through our education system as well.

We're reviewing the recruitment practices for apprenticeships specifically in the engineering sector. So, I think that is something that we need to focus on; it's these sectors where we have to focus. Siân Gwenllian, just to make it clear that

every careers officer is trained in equality. So, we are doing our best to ensure that people are aware, when they are giving young people an idea of what’s available—that they are aware that they have to try and attract women to those apprenticeships. 

On disability, I think it's fair to say that the participation of disabled people in apprenticeships needs an improvement, and I'm glad that Mark Isherwood has drawn attention to the work we're doing with Remploy. We've also facilitated workshops between apprenticeship providers and regional Remploy offices, and we've ensured that there's a dedicated equality and diversity champion who is working with providers, making those connections with local communities, and I'm pleased to say that the majority of apprenticeship providers have signed up to the Time to Change Wales pledge, which is a public declaration that they want to tackle mental health stigma and discrimination. But let me be clear to David Rowlands that this is a priority area for the Welsh Government. We know that we've got work to do in relation to disability and apprenticeships in particular. We've developed a toolkit, and we've provided bespoke training to that provider network.

I take on board the points made by Mark on the disability training, that, actually, sometimes that is most effectively delivered by disabled people—

Can I ask the Minister to wind her comments up to a close, please?

Absolutely. 

Just a few words on the Welsh language: may I say that it is possible to take any apprenticeship through the medium of Welsh where there is demand? I want to make it clear that apprentices can study in the language of their choice, but the fact is that very few people choose to undertake their apprenticeship solely through the medium of Welsh. There are quite a few now who are doing it bilingually, but it’s the choice of the apprentices. So, there are many people who perhaps don’t have the confidence that we would hope to study solely through the medium of Welsh.

Can I just make a couple of points on—?

No, no. Sorry. You're way out of time, Minister. I do apologise. If there is one urgent, final sentence that you have to say, you can say a final sentence to round the debate off.

Well, just to thank—. I just want to thank the committee for their interest in this, because it is a really important area for us and I'd like to ask you to keep us on our toes in this regard. Diolch yn fawr.

Thank you. I call on Russell George to reply to the debate.

Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. Dawn Bowden, can I thank you for your contribution in regard to the issue you raised about raising awareness—employee awareness? I think that's quite correct. You raised some issues that we didn't look at in our inquiry but I think are completely relevant to today's debate. I certainly think that there are some areas that you raised in your contribution that the committee could pick up. And your points in regard to pay rates not meeting minimum requirements—the Minister has already committed to looking at that herself, but I think those are also areas that the committee should perhaps do some work on as well.

Mark Isherwood used his contribution to highlight, in large part, evidence that we've received from Remploy in regard to apprentices and in regard to disabled people. This is an area where we need to see some real progress being made; the Minister's acknowledged that and accepted that recommendation in that regard as well. 

Joyce Watson, Rhianon Passmore and Siân Gwenllian also raised issues around gender, disabled people, Welsh speaking, and I should say that, as a committee, we did decide not to ask for specific targets in this regard; we didn't want to create a tick-box culture. We did have some discussion around that, and we are keen for those regular updates. But I think as we come back as a committee to look at this work again, and we will do, then I suppose if we feel that progress isn't being made in those areas, it might be a case where the committee are minded to look at recommending specific targets in those areas.

Jack Sargeant, you should join our committee. We've just started a piece of work on automation this morning—a real fascinating session this morning, and I agree with all the points you made in that regard. And, of course, you talked about your own experience as an apprentice yourself—so, so much in common with what our committee's looking at. You'd be very welcome to join our committee, but that would mean I'd have to choose one Member on your side to leave, and I wouldn't be able to do that either.

David Rowlands and Mohammad Asghar—I'll just say Oscar; I'll just call you Oscar—were also pointing out the requirements for independent career advice and getting the correct balance for the Welsh economy, and also highlighting our recommendations for equivalent support to be made, of course, between apprentices and that also available to students.

If I could thank Vikki Howells, of course, for raising the issues of awareness of encouraging younger people, I suppose, and bringing your own experience as a teacher yourself—of course, I'm disappointed, like yourself, that the Government didn't accept recommendation 3 in this regard.

Thank you, Nick Ramsay, for your intervention as well and for rooting through your wardrobe this afternoon to pull out an old committee paper. I think it's important that we do look at our previous committees' work and not let them gather dust; I'm certainly a big believer in that.

Can I thank my colleagues on the committee for their work and their contribution, and also Members who have left our committee now? Two Members have now joined the Government since we started this piece of work.

I particularly wanted to thank BT and the Prince's Trust for hosting the committee and showcasing us the work of their apprentices and young people respectively—that was a very valuable meeting for us, and we thank you for that—and also the other organisations who also submitted evidence to the committee's inquiry. So, today's debate, I think, has showcased the passion that Members have in our committee but also from Members not sitting on our committee as well. It's encouraging that a lot of Members who took part in today's debate are not members of the committee, and that's the way I think it should be; that should be the norm.

And I do appreciate the Minister's enthusiasm as well in regard to apprenticeships; I can certainly agree and see that. So, I can say to the Minister the committee won't be leaving apprenticeships behind after this debate, you'll be pleased to know. We'll be publishing our thoughts on the first year of the levy later this term, and this is an issue that Hefin David and Siân Gwenllian also mentioned. So, I'm pleased to say that some of the issues around policing that were mentioned in today's debate will be addressed then as well. But I can say to the Minister we'll certainly be keeping up the pressure on the Government in regard to the support for apprenticeships and support packages for apprentices equivalent to those that are available to students as well.

The proposal is to note the committee's report. Does any Member object? The motion is therefore agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Motion agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.