We now move to the short debate, and I call on Hefin David to speak on the topic he has chosen. Hefin. 

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. The approach I'm taking to this short debate is one that I've discussed with the Minister. I haven't actually written a speech. I have notes, but I haven't written a speech, so I don't know what I'm going to say in this speech. But what I've also agreed with the Minister is that he hasn't written much of a speech either, and he's not relying on civil service notes; he's going to answer what I'm saying. Some people may say it's a unique approach to a short debate; I'd like to call it 'short debate unplugged.' 'Short debate unplugged' is what I'm going to call it, although the Minister called it something else, which is not repeatable in this Chamber.

What I'd like to look at is the Bevan Foundation's 'Anchor Towns' report, which was their contribution to some of the debate, and I think was focused towards some of the debate around the Valleys taskforce, and what the Valleys taskforce is doing, although they make clear that the concepts in this report can be applied to the whole of Wales. And what I'd like to do is look at this concept of anchor towns, not as Huw, sitting next to me said, 'Irranca' towns. He said that if it had been about that, he would have stayed to listen to the debate, and I promised him I'd work that joke in. 

I want to talk about the concept of towns and anchor towns, and the difference between the two, and then focus on some of the positives and some of the difficulties, I think, with this concept, and try and find out from the Minister really what chimes with his view. What does he think the Welsh Government should pick out of this report, and subsequently do? I think anchor towns comes as an evolution of the strategic hubs, which were in the original Valleys taskforce, and the former Minister here has kindly stayed to listen to this debate; I hope he stays for the whole thing and doesn't walk out—

Well, that depends on whether you make it interesting. [Laughter.]

He said he's going to stay as long as I make it interesting, so, if he does go, we know what he's thinking.

And the definition within the report—they describe anchor towns as sub-regional centres of employment, education and key services with strong transport links, and they support new and growing businesses and provide a large enough customer base for local businesses such as food shops, restaurants and cafe and local services, such as post offices and banks, to thrive alongside a strong cultural and community offer. Now, those of us in this Chamber who are representing communities with towns that are in difficulties will know that that is almost the holy grail; that is quite difficult for us to achieve, that is quite a big challenge for us to achieve. And it does link within the report as well, Deputy Minister, the foundational economy. That makes a very positive statement towards the foundational economy, which I think kind of began and developed on the Labour back benches and spread across this Chamber and was taken into Government very effectively by the Deputy Minister. The reason the foundational economy has been championed in Government is because of that Deputy Minister right there; I don't praise him very often, so, please, Minister, make the most of it. 

There are a limited number of towns that can be classified as anchor towns, and not all display those characteristics. Inevitably so, because they are so very specific and difficult to achieve. Yet, according to the Bevan Foundation, small towns are home to 40 per cent of the Welsh population, and many live closer to a town than a big city. And I remember growing up in Penpedairheol, which was a village; we would talk about going on a day out with my grandfather to Bargoed—that was where you'd have the day out, not to Cardiff, not to Blackwood, but to Bargoed. I doubt that people in Penpedairheol talk these days about going out on a day out to Bargoed. That is part of the tragedy. People love their towns—people love their towns—and they turn to despair when the towns are downtrodden and are not as effective as they used to be. I'm thinking also, Alun Davies, about Brynmawr, and the campaign to save the Market Hall Cinema. That's an example of a love of a town, and that campaign ran throughout the town of Brynmawr, and people felt incredibly strongly about it, and I know you do as well. 

And in my constituency, amongst others, we've got Bargoed, Senghenydd, Bedwas, Nelson, Ystrad Mynach, and of course, Caerphilly, and they would all consider themselves to be towns to some extent or another. So, let's think about anchor towns. Can they be anchor towns, and what are the positives of this concept? Let's have a think about that. 

Well, first of all, as I said, I think this report has been a valuable contribution to the debate, and there are things in here that I think should inform Welsh Government strategy in the future. It sits well with the original iteration of the Valleys taskforce—the original Minister's iteration of the Valleys taskforce. I think it particularly sits with that, and perhaps more so, with that than the subsequent iteration that was developed by the Minister. Having said that, it also moves beyond that flawed concept of strategic hubs. And I do think they were flawed, and I'll elaborate on that later. And the concept of anchor towns talks more about services that are integrated into the concept of place in a way that the strategic hubs, I don't think, did.

Another positive I think as well is that anchor towns are away from the M4 corridor. So we are talking about a rebalancing of travel, away from, in the morning, north to south, and start to move south to north—more about east and west in a minute. And I think that is a very good thing, and it certainly will do more to take cars out of Cardiff than this ridiculous congestion charge that is actually a tax when there are no other alternatives for people to get into Cardiff than using their car. So I think this concept of anchor towns is far more positive in that it offers an alternative to travelling into Cardiff, in my view.

It also seeks, as I've said, to complement Government policy on the foundational economy. And on page 8, it actually talks about foundational liveability, and it says,

'Success is about whether places work in a liveable way for many types of households. Not whether they are deficient by the GVA measure or lack the accoutrements of stylish middle class living.'

I quite like that, and that is their view of foundational living, which chimes very nicely with the Minister's foundational economy championing. It considers those services that already exist also, which was my criticism of strategic hubs.

But let's be positive—there are some things in the concept that say that these things should connect into anchor towns, and those things are: hospitals and health boards, educational institutions, local government, other public bodies, such as government offices, and housing associations. So, if I look at my constituency, I can see, in Ystrad Mynach, Ysbyty Ystrad Fawr, I can see Coleg y Cymoedd, I can see the Tŷ Penallta council offices, and the Tredomen business offices, I can see housing associations—well, at a stretch, I can see United Welsh, which is on Beddau Way, closer to Caerphilly, but at a stretch you could do that. And also I've added my own little category—sports activities. Because the Newport Gwent Dragons centre of excellence is situated across the road from Ysbyty Ystrad Fawr. So, you've also got this as well. But, the point they make—the point they make—is it only works if these institutions work collaboratively together. And if you speak to anyone in Ystrad Mynach, they would not see the Dragons centre of excellence as a community facility; it is seen as an elite facility, that actually causes more problems for Penallta rugby club than it solves. So, the centre of excellence is seen as an elite training facility, and it's very difficult and expensive for the community to access. So there are ways in which these anchor towns can open up access. In the way we talk about community-focused schools, well why not community-focused public bodies and business bodies as well? We need them to focus on a fair and inclusive economy.

So what about the difficulties? So, there are the positives, here are some of the things I think are difficult about the concept of anchor towns. I think it's based on a previous conception of the Valleys taskforce, which we are moving away from. So what does that mean for strategic thinking? Does that mean that the Minister, therefore, will reject anchor towns? Does that mean, Deputy Minister, that you feel that anchor towns are a concept not worth considering by the Welsh Government, or are there things in there that you would like to use? But it is certainly more in tune with your predecessor's view of what the Valleys taskforce should be—I think—than what you currently see it to be.

By the strictest definition also—here's a parochial criticism—the only real anchor town in my constituency is Ystrad Mynach. Bargoed, Senghenydd, Nelson, and Caerphilly even—Caerphilly at a stretch—would not be categorised as anchor towns. That creates some difficulty if you are concerned about the multiplier effect that might be created by anchor towns. 'Is there a multiplier effect?', is a very good question to ask, because it could be reinforcing advantage. Ystrad Mynach already has all these services; Bargoed doesn't, Senghenydd doesn't. What are we going to do for those communities? This is the same problem I had with strategic hubs. Strategic hubs were developed in communities like Ystrad and Caerphilly, where people want to build houses, where people want to grow businesses. But what about those communities that aren't anchor towns? How are they going to link with those communities? How can a multiplier work beyond the snow line? How can you make that happen? And this is a question I'm asking you, Minister.

My constituency is quite linear—it moves north to south. Does it only work—can anchor towns only work where there is concentricity? Ystrad Mynach is concentric; it's the only concentric town in my community—all the others are linear. Is that part of the reason for their success?

Now, also, we're not talking about creating new towns—we're working with what we've already got. And if we were building new towns, we'd build them like anchor towns, but we aren't; we're working with what we've got, and what we've got maybe isn't conducive to creating that. It requires transport infrastructure and connectivity in order to succeed. Ystrad Mynach has that, but we are a long way from an effective public transport system yet. Just this morning, I was on the train service to Caerphilly. Along with all the other passengers, we had to get off at Caerphilly and get on to a Stagecoach bus, which was very hot and sweaty, and as a result, I missed committee—I didn't get in until 10:38. If I was an hourly paid worker or didn't have an understanding employer, I would have great difficulty. Our transport connectivity is not there yet. Fortunately, the chief whip forgave me today.

And the other thing, of course, is that this requires a big public subsidy—these kinds of transport activities. Currently, Caerphilly council pays £81,000 a year to the bus service to run a bus connecting Blackwood to Ystrad Mynach station, east and west. That is under threat because of local government cuts. And the other thing is that we tend not to look east and west in the Valleys. Merthyr Tydfil is identified in the report as a potential anchor town. Let me tell you, I've only been to Merthyr Tydfil town centre three times in my life, and one of those times was to visit Dawn Bowden. I've not been there. I've been to Cyfarthfa Park—[Interruption.] Well, I'll make a point of going there, seeing as I have recommendations from the floor. I've been to Cyfarthfa Park and I've been to the retail park, but Merthyr Tydfil town centre—I haven't been there. It isn't something we think of in my community. We don't look east and west. I've been to Aberdare a bit more often recently than in the past, but that's more out of necessity.

So, what chimes with this report? I think we must work with how people really live, not with how Welsh Government civil servants think we do, and therefore, it needs to be developed by the people themselves. It needs to be done collaboratively with the Cardiff capital region, working towards a strategic development plan, which itself was undermined, by the way, by the Cardiff congestion charge proposal. We need to work together and collaboratively on it and that is what is failing to happen. 

It demonstrates the valuable role of public services boards. I like that, but, do you know what? At the end of the Economy, Infrastructure and Skills Committee last week, I asked Members of all parties around the table how involved they'd been in public services boards, and we said, 'What's a public services board?' We haven't been involved with them; we haven't been engaged with them. They haven't approached us. Russell George, Bethan Sayed—that's right, isn't it? We haven't. We had that discussion, and therefore, if public services boards are going to play a role, they've got to be up there, doing it, involving us and collaborating. At the moment, I don't see it.

And the other question is the Bevan Foundation make reference to the social partnership Bill, linking public, private and voluntary sectors together for the common good. Great—excellent thing—but what will be the detail of that, Deputy Minister? How will the social partnership Bill enable things like anchor towns to flourish? I don't know; I'd like more detail.

This is a debate, and I've set out a couple of questions. While I'm not completely convinced by the concept of anchor towns, the underlying principles of community collaboration, of co-production and of ground-up principles are something that I support and am very, very much behind. But, Deputy Minister, it's for the Government to answer that question as to how those principles are then enacted in practice. The big question I'm asking as a result of this debate, and as a result of this concept of anchor towns is: where does the ministerial taskforce for the Valleys want to go with this? And perhaps in your peroration, you might answer that question.

Thank you. Can I now call the Deputy Minister for Economy and Transport to reply to the debate? Lee Waters.

Yes, thank you very much, Deputy Presiding Officer. Hefin David's opening reminded me of the remarks said of A. J. Cook, the trade unionist—that he didn't know what he was going to say until he started to say it; he didn't know what he was saying while he was saying it, and he couldn't remember what he said after he finished saying it. I'll go in the spirit that he has implored me to, and it's possibly one those debates for other Members to intervene on the Minister responding, so I'd be happy to take interventions from the few remaining Members, should they want to intervene.

I appreciate the spirit in which he's offered this subject up for discussion, because I think it is a ripe time to discuss it. And as it happens, I have invited the Bevan Foundation to attend the next meeting of the Valleys taskforce to debate this very paper. Because, like him, I read it and was engaged and convinced instinctively by much of it, and sceptical about other bits of it, and I really want them to come in, go through it and discuss it. I've also, by the way, issued a standing invitation for them to attend all future meetings of the taskforce, but explicitly with a mandate to challenge. I don't want to bind them into the taskforce and they're reluctant to do so, but there's a standing agenda item for them to come in and have a pop if they want to, because I think, just like Alun Davies before me in leading this, and Hefin David in the spirit of his remarks, we don't have a template here, exactly. We're trying to find a way against a tide that is pushing towns in a particular way, that's denuded them of much of their economic purpose. And even though, as Hefin said, people love their towns, sadly people are using them less and less, and that's the paradox of towns and the role we find, I think, as politicians in wanting them to thrive and doing a bagful of stuff to make them thrive.

The only bit of the civil service briefing note I shall use is just to very briefly touch on four things that we are doing to help towns. We've got a £100 million targeted regeneration programme. We've got a £54 million building for the future fund for the acquisition and redevelopment of unused buildings. We've got a £31.5 million town centre loan scheme, and we're spending £23.5 million on business rates relief. So, we are doing a lot. I guess the challenge could be is whether that is sufficiently focused, and are we clear what the vision is. This is often true of local authorities. Certainly, my own in Carmarthenshire has been very good at renovating old buildings, but it's not clear to me what the town centre strategy and plan is, and that's a point that the Federation of Small Businesses have made in their work.

So, I don't think we all have a clear answer about this yet, but the challenge is a correct one, and I want to continue in the spirit of dialogue in shaping the Government's approach to try and get that as right as we can. 

I think he slightly overplayed, if he doesn't mind me saying so, the differences between myself and Alun Davies on the role of the strategic hubs, and whether the previous conception is different to the current one and how does that fit with the Bevan Foundation's. I think there is some truth in it, in that in the original iteration the strategic hubs were a funding vehicle and they're no longer a funding vehicle, but they're still a very important part of the work of the taskforce and the work of Government, because they give a spatial focus to our work.

Will the Minister take an intervention?

I'm happy to take an intervention. 

Since I was the Minister who invented these things and they've been debated a number of times, it might be useful for me to actually say what lay behind it at the time. The strategic hubs were never a way of doing anything except focusing investment in particular places, because the criticism that we'd heard and the criticism that's been made—fairly, I think, in the past—has been that the Welsh Government has a limited resource that it has then spread so thinly as to make no real impact. And the consideration was that if we are to have a serious impact and achieve the targets that have been set for us during a four or five-year term, then that demanded and required investment in particular places. 

But we used the term 'hubs' partly because everybody else uses the term and, secondly, because we tried to avoid the anchor towns debate. For example, in my constituency, that would be saying to Ebbw Vale, 'You have all of this investment', and by the same token saying to Tredegar, to Brynmawr, to Nantyglo, to Blaina, to Abertillery, 'You're not having that investment.' And it was important therefore for us to say that we want to focus investment in and around particular places that are the transport hubs of the future, and the rest of it, but which would then lead to further investment. They were never seen as the be-all and end-all of the policy.  

I agree with that and, of course, there was a methodology behind the selection.

Yes, there was.

So, this was not a back-of-a-fag-packet exercise; there was a lot of work that went into coming up with them. I think Alun Davies has hit upon the nub of the problem with the strategic hubs as I've seen them, which also applies to the anchor towns. It's not the concept that's wrong; community parochialism is the challenge, because how many do you decide upon? When I took over this brief I said to the civil servants, 'Why have we got seven strategic hubs? That seems a lot', and the civil servant replied, 'We were quite pleased we kept it down to seven.' And that's the challenge I've put to the Bevan Foundation in sponsoring this idea because I don't object to the principle, but how are you going to stop—? Maybe if you can decide on three there'd be a force to the argument, but we're never going to decide on three, so is it really worth the grief?

I feel that Alun Davies wants to interject once more. 

I would say the first iteration didn't include any strategic hubs in the Valleys either, so it was a longer process than perhaps people think. 

Absolutely. And, as I said, we are keeping strategic hubs as a spatial planning tool. With the example of Caerphilly, a lot of work has gone on and investment in the Caerphilly master plan that simply would not have existed had the strategic hubs concept not been there. [Interruption.] I'm happy to give way. 

I did have a meeting with the chief executive of Caerphilly council, and you're absolutely right, the reason they went for the Caerphilly master plan was because of the strategic hubs. The problem is it left out Senghenydd. So that itself had that exact effect.

Yes, and there we come again to the problem. 

So, what do we do about this? I'll just touch on this as a final main point: the public services boards and the role that they have, and how the foundational economy concept fit in. I should properly acknowledge that the foundational economy was a movement of supporters that Hefin David, Vikki Howells, Jeremy Miles and Jenny Rathbone on our benches were part of, and Adam Price and David Melding on the other benches were part of it, too. It was a cross-party movement, and it's important that it remains such. 

We have, as you know, tripled the size of the foundational economy challenge fund, but the real prize is spreading and scaling good practice, and that's where the public services boards have the potential to achieve their purpose. I would agree with his comments that, so far, they're little understood and, beyond producing strategies, have really not themselves made an impact. So, my challenge to the public services boards is starting now, as we are just about to appoint a partner to work with four clusters of them to spread and scale the Preston model of procurement and then, as the experimental funds show promise—and I was in the United Welsh offices in Hefin David's constituency on Monday to meet with the Valleys projects of the experimental fund—we want to spread and scale those quickly across the public services boards. 

And if we get that right, especially on procurement, then the benefit of public spend, which is £6 billion a year in Wales, will flow to those communities in his constituency that currently feel neglected. And then, I think, whether we call them 'anchor towns' and the number we have are almost side issues. The point is: how can we nurture and encourage the fabric of our communities that have felt neglected, and for good reason? And that's the entire purpose of our everyday economy approach and the role of public services boards in doing that. Whether we can do it and whether we can do it quickly enough to show an impact, well that remains to be seen, but I'm certainly focusing my energy on trying to do that. But there are significant frustrations, stumbling blocks and delays along the way. 

I'll just finish on the congestion charge point that Hefin David has made. I think the point he made about transport connectivity is a key one for how people feel connected to their towns, and the dilemma he mentioned that his own local authority faces of having difficulty in sustaining the subsidies to socially necessary but not commercially viable services. Our privatised bus model is broken, and we're trying to hold it together and it gets harder every year. I think, to give credit to the leadership of Cardiff council, they have looked at mounting congestion in their city, the side-effect of the agglomeration model that we've praised in this place for a long time, which is basically people work in Cardiff but live elsewhere and we build up the city. The problem with that, of course, is that people travel distances into the city to get to work, and that has led to a congested capital city with dangerous and deathly levels of air pollution. And something must be done about that. Simply looking at the supply side of producing ever more capacity doesn't work. [Interruption.] I'll just finish the point and then let you in. To be fair to them, they are beginning the conversation of addressing the demand side. 

But I think the problem with their proposal at this point in time is that there is no other way for people to get into the city. The trains are at capacity, the buses run far too late for work. I had massive problems this morning. The people will still travel in exactly the same numbers, they'll just pay the charge. It's a tax, as the proposals are currently set, until you get public transport radically improved and people have confidence in it. 

I don't take the proposals Cardiff have brought forward as the final word on the matter. I think they're the beginning of a conversation.

Will you take an intervention?

I haven't finished the point, but if I have time, I'm happy to. 

They have said—. Sorry, Deputy Presiding Officer, are you trying to give me some guidance?

You have time. You have up to 15 minutes. 

Excellent. 

But at 15 minutes, the mike will go off. 

And we're all going home. Excellent. Let me just briefly respond to Hefin's point before asking Alun to come in.

We're at the beginning of a conversation. They are not going to come in for four years. There are pragmatic reasons for doing this in the way they've done, because the entry points into the city are fewer, and you can put the infrastructure to capture the number plates, whereas if you were to apply it to all Cardiff residents, you'd need cameras all over the city and that is going to be difficult and expensive to do. So I can understand pragmatically why they've done it in this way. But in four years' time, by the time this comes in, if the local government Bill that Julie James is bringing forward is approved by this Senedd, then transport will be being managed on a regional basis. It simply won't be the case that the city region can come forward with a transport plan that only addresses Cardiff. The local authority leaders around that table will demand a whole-region approach.

So, I think this is the beginning of a conversation. All the local authorities over the next four years will be able to shape that, as indeed will the people of Cardiff through local government elections, and I suspect the proposals we end up with will be different from the proposals we've started with. But I think we should give cover and courage and support to the leadership of Cardiff in being willing to tackle the difficult issue of demand management, because simply addressing supply is not going to work. I'll happily give way to Alun Davies.

I'm grateful to you, Minister. I will come in to support the comments made by my good friend from Caerphilly, because it does create a very much us-and-them environment between the hinterland and the city of Cardiff, and the one thing history has taught us is that if Cardiff succeeds, the Valleys succeed, and if the Valleys succeeds, Cardiff succeeds. Separation and division will not enable either of us to succeed.

I do welcome the White Paper from the council in Cardiff. I wish other local authorities had the same capacity to develop similar proposals. But the point made about a Valleys tax is well made, and it will not be acceptable to Members representing central and eastern Valleys constituencies.

But I would say to you, Minister, that I do applaud the thrust of your argument, but the point you make on buses would be a better point if the Welsh Government wasn't proposing to cut the current subsidy to buses in the current budget. What we need to do is certainly have the legislation that you've debated and discussed, and I will be very happy to support that, but in the meantime, we need to sustain and support the bus services we currently have.

In terms of the point on division with the Valleys, I think Ken Skates, the Minister for economy, has made the point in his letter to Cardiff council, which has been released, that this has to be done on a regional basis. As I've just said, I think for a number of reasons that that will be the case.

On the point about bus services, I am a big supporter of sustainable transport. We have a series of practical problems, not least a very difficult budget settlement that has been painful to agree, which has meant the freezing of the support grant—not a cutting. I appreciate that in real terms the effect is much the same, but that has been a very difficult settlement and we have a practical problem in that the revenue funding available to us—and revenue funding is what runs bus services—in transport is extremely limited, and the problem we all have if we are sincere about addressing the climate emergency is that we need to address behaviour change. Behaviour change is about people, it's about services, it's about revenue funding. There is a structural problem we have in the Welsh Government budget that no Minister can easily get around, in that in order to achieve modal shift we need more revenue funding, and we simply haven't got it. It is easier to find funding for capital. So, that is something we're all going to have to confront as the Wales transport strategy comes out this year, and we follow through on our commitment for modal shift, and that absolutely has to be realised to achieve the vision that Hefin David has set out for replenishing and rejuvenating our towns. I pledge to continue a dialogue with all Members on this.

Well done. Thank you very much. That brings today's proceedings to a close.

The meeting ended at 18:59.