The next item is the statement by the Cabinet Secretary for Finance and Local Government: an update on local government reform. And I call on the Cabinet Secretary, Mark Drakeford.

Thank you, Presiding Officer. And thank you for the opportunity to make a statement today on the proposals for the reform of local government.

Local government plays a vital part in the lives of every citizen in Wales. Councils provide the services that educate our children, look after our elderly, dispose of our waste, and light our streets. They go on doing so, moreover, during a period that the Institute for Fiscal Studies has called an extraordinary 10 or more years of retrenchment in public spending.

The Deputy Presiding Officer (Ann Jones) took the Chair.

The pressures that austerity produces are real, and there is real need also to build new resilience into local authorities. That is why reform is a requirement and not a choice. As far as reform is concerned, of course, there was much in the Draft Local Government (Wales) Bill that was published during the last Assembly that was welcomed by local authorities and their partners. However, as Members here will be well aware, there were important aspects of these previous proposals that did not find agreement.

Wrth geisio nawr, Ddirprwy Lywydd, creu consensws newydd, rwyf yn awyddus i berthynas Llywodraeth Cymru gydag awdurdodau lleol fod yn seiliedig ar ymddiriedaeth a pharodrwydd i weithio gyda'n gilydd a gwerthfawrogiad o swyddogaethau gwahanol ein gilydd o ran gwella canlyniadau i bobl Cymru. Wrth fynd ar drywydd y consensws newydd hwnnw a’r berthynas newydd honno, rwyf wedi ymweld â phob un o'r 22 awdurdod lleol ers ymgymryd â'r cyfrifoldeb hwn. Rwyf wedi cynnal cyfarfodydd gyda Chymdeithas Llywodraeth Leol Cymru, undebau llafur a rhanddeiliaid eraill, yn ogystal â phleidiau gwleidyddol a gynrychiolir yn y Cynulliad hwn. Rwyf wedi gwrando'n astud ar yr holl safbwyntiau hyn ar yr heriau a wynebir gan lywodraeth leol a’r dulliau gorau o fynd i’r afael â’r rhain.

Fel y rhagwelwyd, mae fy nhrafodaethau gydag arweinwyr awdurdodau lleol wedi dangos bod llawer yr ydym yn cytuno arno, gan gynnwys llawer o'r cynigion diwygio a nodwyd yn y Bil blaenorol. Rwy’n gobeithio ein bod bellach wedi cyrraedd lefel o gytundeb ar gyfer ffordd ymlaen ar y materion hynny lle nad oedd consensws o'r blaen. Yn y datganiad llafar hwn, rwy’n bwriadu nodi elfennau cyffredinol y ffordd ymlaen hon sy'n dod i'r amlwg.

Ar y cychwyn, byddai'r model hwn yn gweld cadw’r 22 awdurdod presennol fel yr haen ddemocrataidd o lywodraeth leol y caiff cynghorwyr eu hethol iddi yng Nghymru. Efallai y bydd rhai awdurdodau, er hynny, yn dymuno ymateb i amgylchiadau lleol drwy gyflwyno cynigion ar gyfer uno gwirfoddol. Rwy’n bwriadu gwneud hynny’n bosibilrwydd sydd ar gael iddynt a phan gaiff cynigion o'r fath eu cyflwyno, sy'n gwella cydnerthedd yr awdurdodau hyn, byddwn yn cynnig cefnogaeth gadarnhaol iddynt ac yn gweithio'n agos er mwyn helpu i sicrhau newid.

Er mai’r awdurdodau fydd y drws ffrynt y bydd dinasyddion yn parhau i gael mynediad at wasanaethau yn lleol drwyddo, mae fy nghynigion i’n gofyn am gydweithio mwy eang a chydunol rhwng awdurdodau mewn trefniadau rhanbarthol. Rwy’n bwriadu, felly, mynd ar drywydd dewisiadau ar gyfer lefel uwch newydd o weithio rhanbarthol gorfodol a systematig. Bydd hyn yn darparu cydnerthedd o ran staffio a chyllid ac yn golygu y bydd cynllunio a darparu gwasanaethau yn cael ei wneud ar y raddfa sy’n angenrheidiol i wella effeithiolrwydd. Mae hyn yn golygu mandadu’r gwasanaethau a'r trefniadau llywodraethu ar olion traed daearyddol cyson a rhesymoli’r trefniadau cydweithredol presennol.

Y dull a argymhellwyd amlaf i mi mewn trafodaethau dros yr haf oedd model dau ôl troed. Un yn seiliedig ar ddinas-ranbarthau, yn cwmpasu trafnidiaeth strategol, cynllunio defnydd tir a datblygu economaidd, ac un arall wedi'i gyfochri â byrddau iechyd ar gyfer gwasanaethau fel gwella addysg, gwasanaethau cymdeithasol a diogelu'r cyhoedd. Ar hyn o bryd, Ddirprwy Lywydd, mae gennyf feddwl agored ynglŷn â’r manylion o ran daearyddiaeth a swyddogaeth, ond yr wyf yn sicr bod yn rhaid i’r agweddau ymarferol hyn fod yn gyson â'r egwyddor o drefniadau mandadol a systematig. O ganlyniad, byddwn yn ystyried yr holl wasanaethau yn rhan o'n trafodaethau, ac yn arbennig y rhai hynny yr ydym ar y cyd o’r farn eu bod fwyaf mewn perygl mewn cyfnod o gyni.

Ddirprwy Lywydd, mae profiad yn y GIG wedi dangos bod cydwasanaethau cymorth yn gallu cynnig arbedion a gwelliannau o ran ansawdd. Rwy’n bwriadu archwilio, gyda llywodraeth leol, y swyddogaethau hynny a allai gael eu datblygu orau yn yr un modd. Rwyf yn dymuno bod yn glir heddiw ein bod, yn rhan o'r pecyn diwygio hwn, yn cychwyn ar y daith cydwasanaethau hwn gyda phenderfyniad newydd. Rwy'n barod i weld cynnydd dros amserlen synhwyrol ac ymarferol, ond mae’n rhaid gwneud cynnydd.

Yn olaf, gadewch i mi gydnabod y rhan a chwaraeir gan gynghorau tref a chymuned yn rhan o'r tirlun llywodraeth leol. Maent yn chwarae rhan bwysig mewn llawer o gymunedau, ond yn fy ymweliadau ledled Cymru rwyf wedi fy nharo gan yr amrywiaeth enfawr o ran graddfa, cwmpas, gallu ac uchelgeisiau o fewn y sector. Rwyf yn bwriadu deddfu cyfres o drefniadau ar unwaith i helpu cynghorau tref a chymuned, fel y maent yn bodoli heddiw, i fod yn fwy effeithiol. Fodd bynnag, ochr yn ochr â hyn, rwy’n bwriadu sefydlu grŵp annibynnol i gynnal astudiaeth gwreiddyn a changen ar swyddogaeth yr haen hon o lywodraeth yn y dyfodol ac i ddatblygu glasbrint ar gyfer cael y potensial mwyaf posibl o'r sector yn y dyfodol.

Ddirprwy Lywydd, rwy’n ymwybodol bod llywodraeth leol wedi bod trwy gyfnod helaeth o ansicrwydd am ei dyfodol a’r effaith ddifaol y mae hyn wedi'i chael ar ysbryd pobl. Mae wedi bod yn rhan o fy nod wrth gymryd cyfrifoldeb am lywodraeth leol i ddatrys yr ansicrwydd hwn cyn gynted ag y bo hynny'n ymarferol. Cyhoeddais ym mis Mehefin y bydd cynghorwyr a etholir i gynghorau a fydd yn bodoli yn 2017 yn gwasanaethu am y cyfnod llawn o bum mlynedd hyd at 2022, gan ddarparu eglurder a sicrwydd i’r rhai sy'n sefyll etholiad y flwyddyn nesaf. Heddiw, rwy’n gallu cyhoeddi y bydd hefyd etholiadau i’r cynghorau hyn—heblaw am unrhyw rai sy'n uno’n wirfoddol—yn 2022. Mae hyn yn cadarnhau cylch etholiad pum mlynedd parhaol ac yn rhoi llwyfan sefydlog o 10 mlynedd i lywodraeth leol ar gyfer bwrw ymlaen â’r gwaith diwygio.

Ddirprwy Lywydd, nid wyf dan unrhyw gamargraff o ran yr her sy'n dal o'n blaenau. Byddwn yn gweithio gyda llywodraeth leol a rhanddeiliaid eraill dros y misoedd nesaf i ddatblygu manylion yr ymagwedd yr wyf wedi’i hamlinellu y prynhawn yma. Fy ymagwedd fy hun trwy gydol y broses fydd gweithio gyda phleidiau gwleidyddol eraill ar yr hyn yr wyf yn ei gredu sy’n uchelgais a rennir i sicrhau dyfodol llwyddiannus i lywodraeth leol yng Nghymru. Yn gwbl sicr, ni all hyn gael ei ddatblygu a'i gyflwyno gan y Llywodraeth ar ei phen ei hun; mae rhannu arweinyddiaeth, gwleidyddol a swyddogol, yn hanfodol.

Erbyn troad y flwyddyn, rwy’n gobeithio y byddaf wedi nodi ffordd ymarferol ymlaen, gyda llywodraeth leol, eu hundebau llafur cydnabyddedig a phartneriaid eraill. Byddwn wedi dod yn nes at wybod sut y dylai'r ôl troed ar gyfer gweithio’n rhanbarthol edrych, y swyddogaethau sydd i'w darparu drwy weithio’n rhanbarthol a'r trefniadau llywodraethu ac atebolrwydd cysylltiedig. Byddwn hefyd yn ystyried sut y dylai'r system ariannu llywodraeth leol gael ei chyfochri er mwyn cefnogi'r rhaglen newid. Mae llawer iawn i'w wneud eto. Heddiw, rwyf wedi nodi dull newydd a’r blociau adeiladu ar gyfer diwygio, gyda'r nod o sicrhau llywodraeth leol gydnerth ac wedi’i hadnewyddu yng Nghymru.

Thank you very much. Sian Gwenllian.

Thank you very much for the statement. I must congratulate you for all the work that has taken place with stakeholders, the trade unions, the council leaders and with councillors the length and breadth of Wales in order to gather their views on the future of local government in Wales. But, primarily, may I also thank you and congratulate you on introducing a version—a weak version perhaps, but a version—of the Plaid Cymru policy for local government reform? I wish to read just a few lines from the Plaid Cymru manifesto, which talks about our proposals for the creation of combined regional authorities. In this document, it states

‘We propose an evolutionary approach…to create new leadership at the regional and community levels.… These authorities will plan strategically for education…highways and transport, and other statutory services, including a new duty to promote economic development.’

Does that sound familiar to you at all? Well, yes, it sounds very familiar to me, at least, and I’m sorry to highlight that particular fact this afternoon, but I feel I must do so. Do you now accept, therefore, after all the consultation, that Plaid Cymru had the best policy for local government, as compared to what was proposed by your predecessor, Leighton Andrews?

My second question is this: what is the aim of your statement today? What’s the purpose of this strategy? If it is an exercise in saving money only, then it simply isn’t going to work, I’m afraid, and it won’t achieve the main aim of local government, namely to serve our communities. What assessments have you carried out in order to ensure that the proposal that you’ve put forward today will truly serve the needs of our communities more effectively than the current system?

One of the main strengths of local government is accountability and democracy within our communities. There is a lack of clarity in your statement today on how you will safeguard that accountability at a regional level, and this is a cause of concern. Can you, therefore, outline exactly how you will ensure accountability within this new regional structure?

Taking a step towards linking health and social care is extremely important, and, indeed, is at the heart of Plaid Cymru policy. During this Assembly, the Government must get to grips with this huge problem of the complexities in the relationship between health and social services, and ensure that this false wall that has existed over decades is removed in order to provide unhindered services for patients. The proposals as we see them today aren’t clear, from my point of view, at least, in terms of that integration that needs to happen between health and social care. Do you accept that if we are to make a real difference for Welsh citizens, regionalisation must include starting the journey of integrating health and social care?

And, finally, you make reference to savings by centralising back-office functions, such as information and communications technology and human resources, as was suggested by the Williams commission, and this makes sense of course, but, in rural areas, county councils very often are the main employers in those areas, so, what assessments have you made in order to identify the impacts of your proposals on jobs, particularly given financial austerity at the moment? Thank you.

Thank you very much for those questions, and I thank the Member for what she said at the beginning about the discussions that happened over the summer with local authorities and other stakeholders in the field.

Wrth gwrs, rwy’n cydnabod yr hyn y mae hi'n ei ddweud am yr hyn a oedd ym maniffesto Plaid Cymru; byddwn yn gwybod hynny o’r nifer o arweinwyr cynghorau Plaid Cymru a ddywedodd wrthyf cymaint y maen nhw’n anghytuno â'r ffordd honno o symud ymlaen. [Torri ar draws.] Rwy'n credu ei bod yn swnio fel fy mod i wedi cyfarfod mwy na chi. Fodd bynnag, y pwynt yw fy mod i wedi bod yn awyddus iawn yn y trafodaethau yr wyf wedi eu cael i chwilio am syniadau lle ceir consensws y gellir ei ddatblygu o’u cwmpas, ac mae’r syniad hwn yr oedd Plaid Cymru wedi’i gyflwyno o'r blaen yn amlwg, yn y trafodaethau yr wyf i wedi’u cael, yn un y mae pobl wedi bod yn barod i weld rhinweddau y modd hwnnw o wneud pethau, ac rwyf wedi bod yn awyddus i gyflwyno hynny yn y fan yma y prynhawn yma.

Gofynnodd yr Aelod: beth yw pwrpas hyn i gyd; beth ydym ni’n ceisio ei gyflawni drwyddo? A'r gair allweddol i mi, Ddirprwy Lywydd, yw cydnerthedd. Mae llawer o gytundeb ymhlith awdurdodau lleol am yr heriau sydd i'w hwynebu: heriau cyni; heriau cyllidebau’n crebachu a galw’n cynyddu; heriau recriwtio staff i swyddi arbenigol, ac yn y blaen. Rwy'n credu bod y model yr wyf i wedi sôn amdano y prynhawn yma yn ein galluogi i ddatblygu cydnerthedd newydd yn y system mewn tair ffordd wahanol. Rwy'n credu y bydd yn helpu i ddatblygu cydnerthedd ariannol economaidd, gan fy mod yn credu y bydd hon yn ffordd y byddwn yn gallu symud rhywfaint o arian i wasanaethau rheng flaen ac arbed arian mewn ffyrdd eraill yr ydym yn gwneud pethau. Rwy'n credu y bydd yn darparu cydnerthedd o ran staffio. Mae rhai gwasanaethau bregus iawn a ddarperir gan awdurdodau lleol bach iawn, lle y bydd gweithio ar sail ranbarthol yn caniatáu defnyddio staff mewn ffordd wahanol. Ac rwy’n credu y bydd yn darparu cydnerthedd ansawdd yn ogystal, gan fy mod yn credu, trwy weithredu ar ôl troed rhanbarthol, y bydd yn fwy posibl mewn gwasanaethau cymdeithasol, er enghraifft, i gynyddu arbenigedd is-arbenigol penodol ymhlith ein staff, nad yw’n bosibl pan eich bod yn gweithredu yn gyfan gwbl ar un ffin llywodraeth leol.

Gofynnodd yr Aelod i mi am atebolrwydd yn y system. Mae'n gwestiwn pwysig, ac mae'n un y mae'n rhaid bod ei phlaid wedi rhoi ystyriaeth iddo wrth gyflwyno cynigion ar gyfer trefniadau rhanbarthol. Mae gennyf ddau beth i'w ddweud am hynny y prynhawn yma, ond rwyf eisiau bod yn glir ei fod yn bwnc pwysig i ni barhau i siarad amdano wrth i ni fynd ymlaen i'r drafodaeth fanwl ar y cynigion hyn.

Yn gyntaf oll, yn fy nghynigion, mae swyddogaeth y cynghorydd lleol yn dod hyd yn oed yn bwysicach nag y bu hyd yn hyn. Rydym yn cadw pob un o'r 22 o awdurdodau lleol, rydym yn cadw aelodau etholedig lleol, a bydd gan yr unigolion hynny swyddogaeth bwysig yn y dyfodol wrth weithredu fel ffynhonnell o arweiniad ac arbenigedd i'w hetholwyr wrth sicrhau bod unrhyw un sydd eisiau gwybod, pan fo penderfyniad yn cael ei wneud, eu bod yn gallu dylanwadu ar y penderfyniad hwnnw pan eu bod yn dewis gwneud hynny.

Yr ail beth i'w ddweud yw nad yw hwn yn fater newydd. Nid yw fel pe nad ydym erioed wedi cael trefniadau rhanbarthol yn y gorffennol. Pan oeddwn lawer yn iau, roeddwn yn cynrychioli Cyngor Sir De Morgannwg ar Awdurdod Heddlu De Cymru. Roedd yn awdurdod a oedd yn cyfuno de, canolbarth a gorllewin Morgannwg. Bob mis, roedd aelodau o gyngor de Morgannwg yn cael gofyn cwestiynau i mi am y ffordd yr oeddwn i wedi cyflawni fy nghyfrifoldebau ar eu rhan. Felly, rydym wedi dod o hyd i ffyrdd o greu atebolrwydd a chyfrifoldeb mewn systemau a rennir yn y gorffennol ac rwy'n hyderus y gallwn wneud hynny yn y dyfodol.

Ar y mater o integreiddio, mae'n gwestiwn pwysig iawn. Nid yw fy mhlaid i wedi rhannu barn ei phlaid hi mai'r ffordd orau o sicrhau integreiddio yw drwy ad-drefnu gwasanaethau mewn modd rhwygol, ond drwy gyfochri ffiniau iechyd a gwasanaethau cymdeithasol yn uniongyrchol, rwy’n credu y byddwn yn agor posibiliadau newydd a gwell ar gyfer gwasanaethau integredig yn y dyfodol. Dim ond un arf sydd ar gael i ni yw hyn. Rydym eisoes wedi cyhoeddi y byddwn yn mandadu cyllidebau ar y cyd, er enghraifft, at ddibenion gofal preswyl rhwng iechyd a gwasanaethau cymdeithasol o 2018 ymlaen. Rwy’n meddwl bod y cynigion hyn yn o gymorth ar gyfer hynny.

Yn olaf, mae hi'n gwneud pwynt pwysig o ran gwasanaethau cefn swyddfa a chyflogaeth. Dyna pam nad yw’r hyn yr wyf wedi ei ddweud y prynhawn yma yn ailadroddiad uniongyrchol o'r hyn a ddywedodd comisiwn Williams. Rwyf eisiau gweld mwy o ddefnydd o wasanaethau cefn swyddfa gan fy mod yn credu mai profiad swyddfeydd cefn y gwasanaeth iechyd yw eich bod yn cael gwasanaethau o ansawdd gwell sy’n fwy effeithlon o ganlyniad, ond rwyf eisiau iddo gael ei wneud mewn ffordd ddatblygiadol ac organig a’n bod yn ystyried yn ofalus y ffaith fod llawer o awdurdodau lleol yn ffynonellau pwysig iawn o gyflogaeth mewn rhai rhannau o Gymru, lle mae’r cyflenwad o swyddi o'r fath yn gymharol brin.

I’d just like to endorse earlier comments made about how welcome this statement is today and the fact that you acknowledge now that your Government needed to do a u-turn on what was a fiasco during the past three years.

I would just respectfully disagree with you as regards the draft local government Bill, where you said you’d found much agreement. If you do recall, Cabinet Secretary, in committee, my colleague here, Mark Isherwood, and I were very much witness to the fact that it wasn’t met with much—there was more that they didn’t agree with than what they actually did agree with. Had it not been for the casting vote of the Chairman, on previous Bills to do with this, they wouldn’t have seen any light of day. I think, let’s be honest: there wasn’t any political consensus last time because it was a mess. I think we’re all now wanting to work with you positively, where we can agree, but I have to say that the model that you do present does concern me a little, when you talk about regional authorities, where the devil is in the detail, as to how much influence Plaid Cymru themselves have had on these plans going forward.

Leave us alone.

You should join us, really. [Laughter.]

There has been much demoralisation over the past three years and this certainly does bring more clarity to the table. You, of all people, know that I really welcome the acknowledgement and the work that lies ahead as regards community councils, but I do have some questions on this one.

You do mention further consultation. Again, that was not the best way to go about it in terms of the previous three Ministers, over the past five years, when many local authorities felt that they’d actually been dictated to. Many members of the public and community councils felt that they’d been completely not acknowledged in any of the responses. So, I would really ask you: how open, how transparent and what timescales do you have in mind for further consultation on this?

Obviously, I’m very pleased to see the voluntary mergers being back on the table and, where local authorities decide to come forward, can prove to you, can cost them on really strong business cases, how will that fit into your arrangements going forward with regionals? Will you be looking more at getting that process in place first and then allowing voluntary mergers, or will voluntary mergers be allowed along the way?

I noticed that you’ve mentioned about healthcare boundaries or health boundaries. Because many of us now are seeing our local health board in special measures, some of the queries there have been rather about the geography, the demography, and how will you address those?

You’ve mentioned that it will be systematic and mandatory, but we do need to be very wary of the level of prescriptiveness that comes in. Of course, Plaid Cymru did state in their manifesto that they would legislate to create up to six regional combined authorities comprised of existing local councils, with an emphasis on the integration of public services. What my constituents in Aberconwy will be asking me is, ‘Janet, is this another layer of bureaucracy? Is it another layer of democratic administration?’ Because, I think, right now, the last thing that people want is more bureaucracy and more expense in terms of having more elected politicians, but you know I’ve raised those issues with you.

I would like you to answer the Chamber directly: can you confirm just how Plaid Cymru’s policies in their manifesto have influenced your announcement here today? Of course, they also look for the Welsh Government to look at moving from a per-pupil funding mechanism to a funded model based on the catchment area, which could see local authorities such as Monmouth receiving significantly less than Rhondda Cynon Taf. Given your party’s close workings now with Plaid Cymru, will such reforms be part of a Welsh Labour Government led regional shared services agenda? Of course, in the UK, under the Conservative led Government, they set up the efficiency and reform group to bring in shared services in the public sector, leading to £14.3 billion of savings. But the ERG delivers by ensuring that Government acts as one customer, combining buying power, buying more quickly, buying locally, and increasing the pool of suppliers and small businesses, thereby supporting UK growth. Now, we want to see that kind of growth here in Wales.

[Inaudible.]—conclusion, please.

So, I’d ask you: do you really feel that local authorities are up to the mark when it comes to procurement? Because I’ve worked previously with the previous Minister for finance, Jane Hutt, on this and I think it’s fair to say that, with local authorities, in terms of local procurement and cost-effective procurement, we still have a long way to go.

Are you coming to a conclusion, please? You’ve had, I think, four or five questions now.

Right. Okay.

So, if you could just finally conclude in the next 10 seconds.

Okay. My final question then: what stakeholders have been engaged from successful ICT shared services in England, Scotland and Northern Ireland, and how are you looking at other devolved nations to see how they are actually working in terms of local government reform? Thank you. Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer.

Thank you for the questions. I won’t spend a lot of time going over previous history, but there are a series of things in the draft Bill that was published that were very much welcomed by local authorities—the general power of competence, the new local government performance framework, the strengthening of the role of local councillors and so on. So, there is quite a lot to build from.

Turning to the specific questions, in terms of consultation, my plan is to use the rest of this calendar year to have a further round of detailed discussions with local authorities and their partners on the statement that I’ve made this afternoon. If we can bring that to a successful conclusion, then there will be a formal consultation, as we will be required to undertake on these matters. So, there’s an extended period of discussion coming up.

I regard voluntary mergers as being capable of being carried out alongside regional arrangements; I don’t think the one has to follow in time after the other.

In terms of the systematic and mandatory nature of the reforms we’re trying to bring about: both of those principles are important to me. We need to make sure that the arrangements we agree happen in the same way across Wales and I’m not, myself, prepared to follow the advice that I’ve had from a relatively small minority of local authority leaders that we should simply leave it to them, tell them what we’d like them to do, and I’m sure they would get on and do it. I’m afraid we’ve been round the track of bringing horses to water, encouraging them, leading them round the pool, letting them see their reflection in the water, hoping they will drink, only to find out, at the last minute, somebody makes a bolt for it, and we end up not being able to carry out things that most people would regard as sensible.

I don’t believe that this is a new layer of bureaucracy. It doesn’t lead to more elected councillors, certainly. And, as I’ve said, there is a large history of shared regional arrangements in Wales without that accusation being made against it. The origins of the proposals come through discussions with members of all political parties. We do have, through our compact, a particular relationship with Plaid Cymru, and I had a very early discussion with their local government spokesperson, as I think you would expect in those circumstances. And I’ve discussed directly the proposals with Plaid Cymru leaders of councils in Wales, as I have with Conservative Party leaders, Labour leaders, and leaders of no political party at all. My aim has been to try and find a way in which we can create a consensus in which we draw together strands from a range of different sources.

Finally, on shared services, I said in my statement that I want to be clear that we must make progress on that. Procurement will be a part of it, but we do need to do it sensitively. I can’t imagine that if I had said today that we were going to take shared services away from Conwy Borough Council and locate them in a single shared service centre somewhere 200 miles away that members of her electorate would be coming up congratulating Janet on the Conservative party’s approach to that matter. So, we will take it forward, but we’ll do it in a way that is sensitive to local needs and circumstances.

Thanks, Minister, for your statement today. The statement is in some ways welcome, as the new Minister for local government is at least appearing to be more consultative in his approach than his predecessor. We also have more clarity on the council elections next May, and, more importantly for council workers, a degree more clarity on the future shape of local government in Wales. However, as yet we have not got an immense amount of detail. If the merger of council departments across Wales is to be successful, we need to have, at all stages, clear oversight of this process. If the council bureaucrats are themselves allowed to take charge of proceedings, we will end up with more bureaucracy, and not less. So the Minister will need to be mindful of this. With this in mind, I have already urged the Equality, Local Government and Communities Committee, of which I am a member, to scrutinise the implementation of this reorganisation as it takes shape. Of course, it isn’t for me to decide what the committee’s priorities are, but I think we should certainly be scrutinising this process.

As well as the danger of creating more bureaucracy, which is exactly what the Minister is seeking to avoid, we also have to be wary of councils awarding excessive pay-offs—so-called golden handshakes—to senior members of staff, many of whom walk straight into another well-paid post as soon as they get their pay-off. Can the Minister ensure strict control of this process? We’ve had a problem of Labour-run councils in Wales screaming austerity at every available opportunity, only to allow their fat cats to award themselves preposterous remunerations. We saw this recently, indeed, in Caerphilly. So what guidelines will the Minister issue regarding redundancies of senior staff and will he ensure strong oversight of the entire process?

I thank the Member for the questions. I agree with his starting point that people who work in our local authorities in Wales are, by and large, people with families, with children who go to school, with mortgages to pay, and the uncertainty has not been good for them, and that’s why I’m very keen to try and create a consensus about a way ahead. If the committee choose to take an interest in this topic, I think that would be very helpful, and I would look forward to receiving their interest and their advice, if they are able to find the time to do that.

Dirprwy Lywydd, I think one of the strengths of the model that I’ve outlined is that it shouldn’t lead to wholesale changes in the way that people are employed. It seems to me that, by and large, front-line staff will remain employed by the authorities they are employed by today. We would expect—I would expect—that, at a management level, you would have more regional arrangements in order to be able to deploy resources across the regional arrangements that we are proposing. The detail of this is for the next few months, to discuss with trade unions, employers and others with an interest, and, certainly, from my perspective, it will be a topic in which I will retain a very strong interest.

Can I also thank the Cabinet Secretary for his statement? Councils in Britain are the largest in Europe, as the Cabinet Secretary knows. John Stewart has said

‘the average size of a British local authority is 10 times the average size of local authorities in the rest of Europe.’

At a Gorwel meeting last week, chaired by David Melding, it was stated that Slovenia, a country roughly the size of Wales, has approximately 10 times the number of councils.

Do large authorities perform better? Birmingham, which is the largest authority in Britain and one of the largest, if not the largest in Europe, has had serious problems with its social services. In Wales, three local authorities—Swansea, Cardiff and Rhondda Cynon Taf—make up approximately a quarter of the population of Wales. Do these authorities perform better than medium-sized and smaller authorities? I have yet to see any evidence to say so. If the Minister can identify evidence that I can see to show that larger authorities are performing better, I’d be very pleased to see it. If we look at health, is there any evidence that the two largest health boards, Betsi Cadawaladr and Cardiff and the Vale, perform better than the others?

There are two things that are guaranteed to annoy me when I hear them on the radio. The one is, ‘Wales is the same size as Birmingham,’ despite the fact it’s three times the size, and the other one is that larger organisations are better than smaller ones, despite the inability to provide any evidence to support that. Of course, before the 1970s’ reorganisation, there were lots of little local authorities in Wales: Llwchwr Urban District Council, Gower Rural District Council, and, perhaps the most famous of all, Tredegar Urban District Council, where Nye Bevan was a member.

Big can also mean bureaucracy, big can mean inefficiency and big can mean remoteness. With local authorities, there’s a right size for different things. If you look at planning, for example, the right size for development control is nowhere near the right size for a structure plan.

Can I raise two points and questions on what the Minister has put forward—

You can ask two questions, Mike, very briefly, but you can’t make points.

Okay. Can I ask two questions very briefly? [Laughter.] Why do we want to have a city region and another region for services? Surely, the city region is the footprint. I think that you might want to sub-divide within the footprint, but having it across—. Swansea and Neath Port Talbot will be called Janus, because we look east for some things and west for the others. It just does not make a lot of sense and it doesn’t work for building up relationships, where we work with Bridgend for some things, Carmarthenshire for others.

Can I say that, of course, in terms of health, which is a part of the public service, although not under your remit, the ARCH programme, for example, has started to get the area to the west of Swansea working with Swansea? The final question I’ve got is that we’ve seen in health a situation where we’ve had primary and secondary health put together: has that actually worked in getting them to work closer? I think that the answer most people will come up with is, ‘No, it hasn’t.’ I think that what it has done is move money from primary care into secondary care, and I don’t think that’s what people particularly wanted. You’ve only got to listen to primary care practitioners, who’ll tell you exactly how badly done by they are and that all the money goes into hospitals.

So, can I finish by saying: will the Minister look again at having the two-area model and look towards the city region as the basic footprint for public services?

Could I thank Mike Hedges, who I always listen to very carefully on these matters? I’ve said to him before: it’s never been a claim of mine that size is the determining factor in the success of public services; nor, however, do I think that size is an irrelevant factor in the way that things are organised. Size does bring some advantages in some aspects. So, I don’t rule it out, but I don’t think it’s the factor that overrides all others.

I said in my statement that, when I said to you that you could have three city regions discharging some functions and another set of regional arrangements for other functions, that was what was said to me during the visits that I have made since May and June of last year. I’m not wedded to that dual model, and I’m very happy to have further detailed discussions. He says to me that the city region is the footprint. Well, is it the footprint for social services in the Cardiff capital city region, where there are 10 local authorities, with three different health boards serving some very diverse populations? I don’t know. I just put the question there for us to discuss.

Finally, the point that I think he makes about primary and secondary healthcare being brought together in single health boards is that organisational boundaries do not, by themselves, dissolve professional boundaries. In that sense, I certainly do agree with him.

Can I say to the Minister that, after a cheap date, there often comes the morning after? The Minister seems to have woken up in Plaid Cymru’s clothes, but based on the statement he’s made so far they suit him very well.

There are a couple of things that I’d like to ask him, following his response to the statement so far. One is: he’s touched on accountability by referencing back to old police authorities and so forth, but I’d like to hear a little bit more about how accountability can be built into this new system. The other side of it, as well, is leadership. Plaid Cymru’s proposals, he will remember, mentioned the possibility of elected mayors, for example. We weren’t necessarily wedded to that, but that was something that we put forward as an idea. If we’re not going to have something like that, how will leadership be taken forward in these new combined authorities—let me just call them that for the time being—particularly, perhaps, when you come to city regions, which will also have a leadership need as well?

He hasn’t mentioned one of the big topics of local government reform, I still feel, which is the introduction of a better voting system. I think the single transferrable vote has to be, surely, on the agenda for local government, as it has been introduced in Northern Ireland and Scotland, as the real way that reinvigorates and brings in new blood and new people into local government. I’d like to hear whether that is still something that he is prepared to consider, going forward.

He mentioned town and community councils. I’m not sure we need another review. They were looked at in the ‘Reforming Local Government’ White Paper. They were looked at tangentially, at least, in Williams. What do we need to understand about local government that needs another taskforce or review? Surely we have the information and the evidence now to move ahead with that very local level of local government and empowering them, to a certain extent, to do more for their local communities as well. He did mention elections in that regard around principal authorities—about five-year terms to 2022—but his predecessor talked about delaying the town and community council elections for another year. Is that still the case, or are these all now to be aligned?

I very much welcome what he said. I think this is the basis for far more co-operative working, not only at a local government level, but perhaps at a national government level as well. I look forward to some real ideas coming forward about how we can build on the 22 building blocks for genuine local service delivery and proper regional collaboration.

Can I thank Simon Thomas for what he said? I look forward to working with him and others who have ideas to contribute as to how we might achieve those ends. I’ll take his questions in reverse order, if I could. I intend town and community councils to be elected next year, on the same day as principal authorities. I’m not sure that I agree with him that we have the blueprint ready for the future of town and community councils in Wales. I want to empower them to do more in future where they do things well. I attended the annual conference of One Voice Wales at Builth Wells on Saturday. I don’t think, if you asked the audience there to give me the blueprint, they could have done it themselves. There is still an enormous variety of size, scale and ambition. I’ve seen some very good things. I was very pleased to be in Bala on Thursday of last week with Partneriaeth Penllyn, looking at the excellent work that they’ve done, and there is a possible model for rural community councils to work together there. But my impression from all the conversations I’ve had is that we are yet to be in a position where there is sufficient agreement around how we can strengthen that important tier of local democracy. I say to those who are involved in it: I use the word ‘democracy’ with some hesitation, where two thirds of seats on community councils are uncontested, and 1,000 seats were left for co-option at the last election. There is more to do, and more thinking to be done to get the very best out of that.

His first questions were about answerability in the system. There is a series of ways in which we already have regional arrangements in Wales—joint committees, combined authorities, joint authorities. I want to look at the detail of these different possibilities. They all throw up slightly different questions in terms of democratic answerability, but I think they all have solutions to them as well. Should elected mayors be part of all of that? Well, my approach so far has been to put the possibility of elected mayors there for local populations to decide and leave it for them to determine, rather than believing that, from the National Assembly, we should be directive to those local populations as to the choices that they would wish to make.

In terms of today of all days—for the Tories to talk about u-turns when the budget surplus is suddenly no longer necessary for austerity. But there we are. I digress.

Right. I want to welcome strongly today’s statement from the Cabinet Secretary and the positive co-constructive approach with stakeholders pan Wales today, which outlines new ways of working, further clarity and further surety for local government, its workforce, its representatives and the public. So, would the Cabinet Secretary agree, though, that it is imperative, as Wales continues to be hit and buffeted by the dual impacts—increasingly likely—of Welsh block grant cuts from the increasingly heartless Tory Government and, in addition to the 10 per cent of swingeing cuts to Wales, coupled with and alongside the ending of European structural funding and the hollow promises and, yes, lies from the parties opposite, to reference the still missing, promised and guaranteed money for Wales?

Excuse me. Will you reflect on what you have just said and the word—

I will reflect upon it.

Nobody lies in this Chamber.

The promised and guaranteed missing money from Wales—. Perhaps Paul Davies has gone to buy breakfast for somebody. This issue, secondly—

No, I’m sorry. You’ve asked a question. We’re nearly out of time, so can you now wind up, please, with your question?

This issue was only further exacerbated by an ever-increasing and growing need demographically for excellent local public service delivery. Would the Cabinet Secretary agree that the need for a timely, resilient and strong framework is vital for Wales, and that the time is now for this Chamber to step up to the consensual plate, stop procrastinating over political points and reach a collective and welcome consensus on the way forward? Thank you.

Well, the impact of austerity is real, as the IFS report demonstrated. The loss of European funding adds another layer of uncertainty, which has a direct impact on local authorities, through which many of the very best European schemes have been put into practice. All of that does amount to a compelling case to build new resilience into local authorities in Wales, and that is what I hope the statement that I have made this afternoon will help us to achieve.

Thank you. Finally, Dafydd Elis-Thomas.

Thank you very much, Deputy Llywydd. May I thank the Minister for his statement and apologise that I wasn’t present to welcome him personally to Penllyn just last week? I also declare that it’s a wonderful day for me when my own party’s policies and his party’s policies come together, particularly on issues related to the internal governance of Wales, because the question I want to ask of him is: is he sure in his own mind that he will be able to take full advantage of this first real opportunity, in a democratic and co-operative manner, to create a pattern of internal governance for Wales as a nation that will be sufficient for us to cope with the context in which we find ourselves at the moment?

I speak as one representing north Wales, who lives next door to, and often spends time in, the Northern Powerhouse in England and sees that there is a new, excellent member of the Conservative Party, who is a close friend of mine, Andy Street, who is going to be a candidate for the post of mayor of Birmingham. So, the midlands machine will, again, be competing with what’s happening in north Wales. Therefore, we have to be a robust and strong-enough region in north Wales, and, indeed in the rest of Wales, to compete in earnest in that context.

Just one further issue: I do think that it is entirely right to start an earnest review of truly local democracy, as one who lives in, I think, what was the smallest authority in Wales, Betws-y-Coed—at one time, at least. I’m very keen to see a pattern of local democracy that is truly efficient, but I do believe that elections at all levels are crucial for that to work, including the election of mayors or governance bodies for the regions.

Could I agree with the final point that the Member made? That’s what I said to Simon Thomas: when I speak to community councils, one of the things that I want to do is bolster the policy for electing people who represent local people. But, to do that, we will have to have a plan for the council level and persuade people to come forward to do that important work that the councils do.

Of course, I agree also with what Lord Elis-Thomas said about the importance of regional issues. In north Wales, there’s the board that they’ve drawn together. I had an opportunity to talk to the people on that board on Thursday. One of the reasons that they are doing things like that, and working hard together to do that, is because they are aware of what’s going on over the border in England, and they know that they have to collaborate to strengthen the possibilities for the future there.

Regarding the last point, I just want to say that we have spent a lot of time in this Assembly, for important reasons, on the relationship between us and Westminster. We haven’t spent the same time and the same energy looking at the relationship between us and local government. This is the opportunity, now, to do that. It is important for us, as an Assembly, in terms of the footprint that we have in terms of democracy here in Wales.

Thank you very much, Cabinet Secretary.