Item 6 on our agenda this afternoon is the Member debate under Standing Order 11.21(iv): online and offline public services, and I call on Rhun ap Iorwerth to move the motion. Rhun.

Motion NDM7263 Rhun ap Iorwerth, Angela Burns, Janet Finch-Saunders, Llyr Gruffydd, Sian Gwenllian, Neil Hamilton, Mike Hedges, Vikki Howells, Mark Isherwood, Delyth Jewell, Helen Mary Jones, Dai Lloyd

Supported by Suzy Davies, Huw Irranca-Davies

To propose that the National Assembly for Wales:

1. Notes that more and more services are only available online.

2. Recognises that not everyone has access to the internet.

3. Recognises that not everyone is comfortable with using the internet.

4. Calls on Welsh Government to:

a) ensure there are offline alternatives to online public services, such as with the bus pass renewal system; and

b) discuss with banks, businesses and other organisations to make sure that customers are not isolated if only online services are offered.

Motion moved.

Thank you very much, Deputy Presiding Officer, and I thank the Business Committee for allowing me to bring forward this debate today. I also thank the 13 Assembly Members who were my co-submitters of this motion, or supporters of the motion. I think that number does demonstrate that this is an issue that has struck a chord with the membership of this Senedd more generally.

We are noting in this debate the increasing number of services that are available online only, whilst many people still don't have access to the internet or don't have convenient access, certainly, or simply aren't comfortable in using the internet for whatever reason. We are asking the Welsh Government to step in to assist. This isn't some old-fashioned opinion; we're not rejecting new technology. I'm more than comfortable, myself, using online services, and like so many people, technology of this kind has certainly made my life easier in very many ways. But as more and more services do go online—banking services, postal services, bus pass renewal systems, even the courts—more and more people are at risk of being excluded. And I do see from casework in my own office that this can cause real anxiety for some people, particularly older people.

Lack of access to the internet is a problem for some, as I said, not only because of broadband problems that you will have heard me discussing numerous times in the past, along with many other Members, but also because many people, particularly older people, don't have computers or smartphones. The older people's commissioner's office tell me that almost 30 per cent of people between 50 and 64 and 65 to 75 don't have access to the internet, and that goes up to around 50 per cent, or over 50 per cent, in fact, among people over 75 years of age.

But it's not just access to the internet that is a barrier for people, but the fact that many older people simply don't feel comfortable using the internet, even those who do feel comfortable with e-mail or Facebook. Perhaps they are still nervous when it comes to making an application for something official such as a bus pass or dealing with financial services online.

Yes, some work has been done to increase digital inclusion, increase people's skills in communities and so on, but there are many older people, particularly, who choose not to go online, and they shouldn't miss out on crucial services or advice as a result of that. And people who aren't online often miss out on better deals when it comes to shopping or services such as selecting a gas or electricity provider.

So, what can the Government do? I'm calling on the Government to do two things to assist people from feeling isolated and from losing out. The first thing is to look at the public services that they themselves provide. The latest example, the more prominent example, is the decision of the Welsh Government to make the bus pass renewal system an online-only system. Particularly given who the demographic was, this was a very unwise choice, in my eyes, and you very clearly see, by speaking to constituents, that people are deeply concerned about having to do this online, and many people don't know where to start.

My office therefore offered that we would help people in making these online applications, and we advertised that through a poster in the window, a poster in the post office, and we spread the word. And since September, my office has dealt with over 300 bus pass renewal applications through the Transport for Wales website. Three hundred people who either didn't feel comfortable in making the application themselves or didn't have access to the internet in order to do that had they not come to my office.

And there were stories about people losing sleep as they were so concerned about how they were going to renew their bus pass because they were so reliant on buses. We are still now having people coming to us telling us that they've tried to make an application on paper and that there were huge delays with that, and some feeling that the paper-based application had gone to the back of the queue. And that was when the online system was crashing continuously at the outset.

Constituents also tell us that they have difficulty in finding face-to-face support in order to make these applications. Many were referred to us by libraries on Anglesey and by the council and so on and so forth. We were more than happy to help our constituents, of course, but we must ask questions as to whether that provision by Transport for Wales was appropriate, and whether the support that they claimed was available to assist people was sufficient.

It is clear that the Welsh Government values the bus pass for older people or they wouldn't offer that free service to them, and we support that, of course. It's very important indeed. So, it didn't make sense, then, to me, to put this barrier in place of the crucial process of renewing these bus passes.

I'll give you another example in my own constituency related to transport: a constituent had gone to a railway station in December to ask for a paper copy of the train timetable, the new timetable, but the only thing that was available for passengers was a sheet advising people that the timetable was changing and that they should go online to see the changes. That's not acceptable.

So, I would like a commitment from the Government that they will look to ensure that traditional options—off-line options, if you like—are available where public services are provided online, and particularly, I hardly need to say, when those services are targeted at groups such as older people or people who have learning difficulties who face similar problems.

The second thing I'm calling for is that Government should put pressure on third parties, the private sector, for example, in order to ensure that customers aren't excluded and that customers aren't disadvantaged if only online services are provided. The most prominent examples are banking services. I'm sure there's no constituency—correct me if I'm wrong—but I'm sure there's no single constituency that hasn't been impacted by bank branch closures. Sixty-three per cent of branches on Anglesey have closed since December 2015, and there are only six left across the whole of the island. You will hear the bank saying, 'Well, don't worry, people can use the branch in the next town', but then they'll close that one too. And in addition to that, you have the situation that we saw with Barclays saying, 'Well, our customers can't withdraw funds from the post office either.' I was very pleased that we had managed to put pressure on them to scrap that particular idea.

But it does demonstrate, doesn't it, the lack of commitment among the major banks to think about their customers, particularly older customers, and specifically, I would say, in rural areas? Yes, I do bank online myself and, yes, I do realise that that strengthens the case for the banks for closure. I am not blind to the change of culture that's happening, the change of habits among the population and the impacts of that. But there are people who simply don't want to bank online. They don't trust online banking because it is too much of a culture shift from what they have been used to. They simply won't change, and they are losing out.

I remember when I visited the Yorkshire Building Society in Llangefni when it was announced that that was to close, and the staff were literally in tears describing the customers who would come in to withdraw money, and it wasn't a single payment in one envelope, but it was, 'Here's your rent money, Mrs Jones, and here’s your money to buy food’, and so on. And that is a personal service that will never be duplicated online, and digital exclusion, that's what that means. It's the growth of online services reducing traditional services and people who don't have access to those online services are excluded and isolated.

Another example in my constituency was with the gas service. A 92-year-old constituent receiving a letter from British Gas asking her to organise a boiler maintenance check, and she was advised to make an appointment online through the app. Now, she was hugely concerned at this point. She was concerned that there was a problem with her boiler and a problem with a boiler can be fatal, but she was worried about that, and she couldn't make an appointment. So, she came to my office and we got in touch with British Gas to make that appointment for her. And their response was:

'Our letters currently no longer provide telephone numbers and do direct customers to our online booking system. However, the telephone numbers for customers to contact us on are always provided on our terms and conditions, which are reviewed approximately every 18 months and sent out to all customers.'

But it feels very inadequate for me to expect people to keep hold of those terms and conditions when it's a small matter to continue to provide those contact numbers on all letters. Because that telephone service does exist.

So, I call on the Government to discuss with banks, businesses and services and other institutions to ensure that people don't feel that they are being excluded if online services are the only services provided. As I said, I'm very grateful that so many Members have supported this motion. It is proof, I think, that this is an important issue. I look forward to hearing your contributions and the Government's response too.

I am very pleased to support this debate, and I thank Rhun ap Iorwerth for bringing it forward. It is an issue that is very important to many of my constituents, including people who I socialise with. Lots of people are not on their—. Like my wife accusing me of being on my smartphone at all times—in fact, many people haven't got a smartphone.

Looking at it from the viewpoint of an organisation, what is there to not like about providing online services? It saves processing time, it saves staff, it saves on money, it checks all parts of the form are completed, because if you don't complete a part of the form it gives you a little red dot and it won't let you go on to the next part. I'm sure other people have had that problem, which seems to beset me with most online forms I fill in. It checks all parts of the form are completed, but also makes sure that everything is valid. So, you put your date in in the right format and you can cross-match key fields. It provides a faster response to the individual. What is there not to like?

But I think this exemplifies the distance between people and governments and big organisations. And can I just say something that might raise shock horror to a large number of people running large organisations and senior people in a lot of the public sector? Many people do not own a smartphone, an iPad or a computer. Many others, for lots of reasons—some relating to health—are not happy using ICT equipment, even when it has been adapted for a disability. And I know you can get a concept keyboard to put over the top, and I'll tell you what—good luck if you're looking for one. But they're not happy and they like—. There's another group of people who just like talking to people. They like getting on a phone and actually talking to people. That's the second-best means of contacting somebody. The best means of contacting somebody is actually talking to them face-to-face, which used to be a way that you could deal with organisations, which seems to be coming less and less available currently.

And Rhun ap Iorwerth mentioned banks. People used to go into the bank to do all sorts of discussions, and it was part of their social lives as well, which is something—. Again, we talked about isolation yesterday—part of the problem of isolation is that people don't have these community meetings in post offices, banks and other places.

Let's look at the bus pass renewal application. Both my office staff and staff at local libraries have spent a huge amount of time helping people to apply online. I've also spoken to lots of people who've had to ask children, grandchildren or other relatives to help them or do it for them.

Can I give the Welsh Government some credit? Transport for Wales has got a paper-based form as well, and that was available to apply for the new bus pass. It wasn't online only. And can I just say, there's an awful lot of things that I deal with that are online only, or not only online only—'Please use the app.' That's sort of saying that everybody's got it on their phone. The benefits system is almost wholly online. It is wholly online—the information is provided online or applications have to be online. At a very minimum, a paper-based version of every Welsh and Westminster Government form should be available for people if they want it, and a lot of people feel much happier filling in paper-based forms.

Rhun ap Iorwerth started talking about it—can I just also turn to the private sector? There's a financial benefit for us if we deal with utility companies online. They actually give us some money off for having online bills and paying by direct debit and all those things. Of course, we get the benefit, but the reverse is true—there's a financial penalty for not dealing online. That's another one of the many ways where it becomes expensive to be poor, because the people who don't deal online are more likely to be poor than people who have double-fuel, direct debit, online bills, which I'm sure affect most of us in here, but an awful lot of my constituents don't have those things and they're paying a price for that.

Finally, I just think every online process should have a paper-based alternative. Some people will want to do it online—I actually prefer doing things online—but many people would like to use a pen and paper. In fact, anybody who's seen my handwriting would realise exactly why I prefer to do it online, but I think it is important that people have the choice and let's see that everybody can have a paper-based alternative and not pay a financial penalty for doing so.

Well, I agree with you completely there, Mike, and with apps in particular—if I haven't got a pair of these with me, then I may as well not have an app at all.

I have to say, it’s almost six years, actually, since I did a short debate on a very similar issue, and at the end of this, I really would like to hear from the Deputy Minister what she thinks has changed, particularly on that first ask from Rhun ap Iorwerth about what our Government can do within its powers to mitigate decisions by some large organisations to stop communicating with customers by post, or, as Mike alluded to, actually charging customers for the privilege of receiving mail.

Receiving your bills, statements and necessary information, basically, via the mail, allowing paper applications for various services rather than using the web—. Of course, this may be a matter of simple preference for some people, but for a surprisingly large number of people it's no choice at all, and for that they should not be penalised. It's the position of the 'Keep Me Posted' campaign—it's a UK-wide campaign—which has been working to highlight this discrimination since August 2013. And, actually, I'd just like to place on record my thanks to them for keeping me updated on this issue.

Since 2013, the number of adults in the UK with no access to the internet has actually fallen from 9 million people to just over 5 million people and, in Wales, apparently, almost 90 per cent of adults now say they have used the internet over the course of the year. Of course, that doesn't mean they have their own computer, but it looks like a surge, doesn't it? Suddenly it looks like we're a virtually, computer savvy nation. I do wonder how much of that survey was done on the internet, because the number of adults in the UK who admit to not having enough knowledge of the internet to use it confidently—a different question—remains at a very stubborn 16 million. So, even though more people are going on the internet, it doesn't mean that they're feeling very safe using it. The fact that that figure has not changed in six years speaks volumes, I think.

The Office for National Statistics says that more older people are using the internet. Perhaps that's because a number of us have moved from one statistical age category to another, taking our youthful skills with us. Yet the number of over-75s who use the internet has hardly changed at all, and, if my own family experience is anything to go by, dementia can quickly rob you of any IT skills you did have, even in its early stages.

Only this week, I spoke to representatives of Lloyds Bank, which is closing its branch in Mumbles in May—yes, one of the many, Rhun. Sixty per cent of their customers are over 55. That's quite a high amount. A lot of them will be eligible for a free bus pass to get to the branch in the city centre, and of course they've got to go online to get those bus passes. So, some of them, yes, have caved in and they've gone for internet banking, but 22 per cent—that's almost a quarter—of all that branch's customers are over 75. So, these are the people who are targeted by scammers. And, of course, banks don't tend to use e-mail for their customers, but you try telling that to a much older person who's either new to online banking or losing their computer savvy. Two per cent of fraud in this country takes place via the post; 70 per cent of it takes place online. So, we're not just talking about a service for those who have no option but to use paper, but we are talking about those who are safe and confident to use online services. I genuinely think that, for some people, trusting the postman is still far preferable to trusting your password.

Even when people have internet access, they may prefer paper—I'm one of them, actually. Between 39 per cent and 42 per cent of people admit that they often forget to check their statements online, find it easier to keep track of their finances if they have stuff in print, and fear missing payments if they rely solely on online information. So, people have higher levels of debt if they conduct their financial affairs solely online.

Due diligence rules mean that people are experiencing difficulties proving their identity. Some financial institutions and even Government departments insist on original statements. Well, sometimes you don't have an original statement. We'll also have problems with a lack of a paper trail if you're exercising a power of attorney or identifying the assets in the estate of a deceased—and I've got personal experience of this. No password? No access. You may not even know these accounts exist.

One final consideration, and this is for small businesses: even if they have good broadband—and you mentioned this, actually, Mike—if they're conducting their financial affairs online, they may still be employing people with support needs, and sometimes that kit still doesn't mean that people feel confident using the internet.

In Canada, just to finish, telecom firms must exempt the over-65s, disabled people and those without a home broadband connection from being denied postal communication. The French can insist upon free paper bills. In Spain, they can receive all their bills through the post at no cost, unless they're specifically requested by e-mail, and no charge is imposed for those who already receive or switch to paper billing.

I appreciate that not all the levers sit here, but the Assembly—I just want to finish with this, Dirprwy Lywydd—is proud of its rights-based laws and the Government has introduced its economic contract with social purpose at its core. So, how about making the preference for paper part of that contract? Thank you.

Perhaps I should start by acknowledging the huge amount of work the Welsh Government has done to ensure almost all of us in Wales can access internet facilities and to assure the Minister this is not in any way a condemnation of your efforts in this area.

For all of us, the changing world of communications has altered our lifestyles forever. For most of us, it has been a real and positive change. We can communicate quickly, whether by voice, text or social media, and it's become the norm to walk into a room and to see each and every person staring at a digital screen.

The world of commerce has been quick to exploit these innovations, often to the detriment of all of us. Such manifestations as the closing of the once-familiar high-street banks, and the huge growth of online shopping, leading to the loss of high-street shops and stores, all contribute to the changing tenor and panorama of our high streets. But, for some, often the most vulnerable in our society, this exponential growth in online services has a much greater effect on their lives. Far from giving greater access, it often means limited access or even no access at all.

The impact of this access negativity is most felt in the need to contact relevant authorities or businesses. This necessity for access could be for such essential things as benefits, tax queries, energy facilities—even access to doctors' surgeries and job applications. Local authority and schools notifications are increasingly using digital communications. Schools are also using the internet to facilitate homework, et cetera. This affects those children from poorer families, where digital devices may have to be shared or, worse still, are not available at all.

So, digital isolation is when people find themselves in a position where they can't access the internet or digital media and devices as easily as other people, or even not at all. There are many factors that can affect this inability to connect. It could be that they cannot afford the necessary devices, such as computers, laptops, even smartphones, and, crucially, it can also be a lack of understanding as to how to operate such devices.

Over a third of the people in Wales aged 50 or over do not use online services at all. As mentioned by Mike Hedges, people who do not use digital technology, especially the elderly, are increasingly missing out on benefits and financial savings as a result of their continued use of traditional methods of banking and commerce. Research suggests that older people are paying a high price for not participating in digital services. It has been calculated that offline households miss out on savings of up to £560 a year by not shopping and paying bills online.

We now find that a number of companies are phasing out letters, telephone numbers and even occupation of physical buildings, moving exclusively to digital-only services and customer interaction. These sorts of developments are increasing the isolation of those we think of as vulnerable, especially the elderly, who are used to, and prefer, face-to-face communication, where empathy and understanding are more likely to be evident.

This digital isolation is an issue that homelessness charities are seeing become more widespread, as more and more lifeline services move online. It is true that attempts are being made by authorities to address some of the exclusion. Some temporary accommodation hostels have ICT suites in them, but, with many using these hostels having a lack of understanding in the use of the equipment, it still leaves them in a state of digital isolation. Clearly, there is a training issue that needs to be addressed, perhaps not just in hostels but in the vulnerable population as a whole. The closure of many of our libraries, once the pillars of our education and learning, does not help in this lack of digital training.

Can I finish by saying that this debate today is an extremely important one, in that it addresses a growing problem and one that affects a significant portion of the Welsh population? Can I thank Plaid Cymru for bringing this debate to the Chamber today? It is one that I and my colleagues are happy to support.  

As the older people’s commissioner noted in her 'State of the Nation' report:

'The increasing use of digital technology means that the way we access services and information, and the way we communicate, has changed significantly in recent years.'

However, not everyone has access to the internet. Superfast availability is 77 per cent in rural areas. Around 87 per cent of businesses in Wales have access to superfast broadband, and yet only 93 per cent of all premises in Wales can access superfast broadband, compared to a UK average of 95 per cent. Ofcom estimates that the number of premises currently without access to superfast broadband in Wales is around 156,000. Bearing that figure in mind and the fact that BT Openreach are only planning to provide 26,000 premises with access to fast, reliable broadband by March 2021, it is clear that many, including my constituents in the Crafnant valley, will continue to be bogged down by lack of access to reliable internet. Equally problematic is the fact that internet usage remains very low amongst our older generations. A third of older people do not make personal use of the internet. The figure is even higher for those aged over 75—that's 60 per cent. 

I acknowledge that the Welsh Government has taken steps to try and address the problem of digital inclusion. For example, the digital inclusion strategic framework and delivery plan of March 2016 set out a goal for reducing digital exclusion for adults aged 16 and over, so that more people could benefit from being online and using digital technologies. However, according to the digital inclusion progress report and forward look 2018, only 77 per cent of social housing residents have internet access, just 51 per cent of single pensioner households are likely to have internet access, and 25 per cent of disabled people are digitally excluded.

I am pleased that the report highlights the need to work with all sectors to tackle digital exclusion. It does recognise that telecommunications companies such as EE, Three, O2, BT and Virgin, and utility companies such as British Gas, Welsh Water, and E.ON, financial services such as Natwest, Lloyds, Principality, Santander and Barclays, and insurance companies such as Aviva, Admiral and Endsleigh—there's a bit of a namecheck going on there—are increasingly looking to customers to manage their accounts online. A promise, however, was made to encourage the private sector to try and lead by example and to consider their digitally-excluded customers. So, I would appreciate an update on what progress has been made through ministerial and deputy ministerial interventions on this issue to date.

I believe that the aim should be amended so to include the need to discuss with banks, businesses and other organisations the need to ensure that alternatives to online services are offered. In fact, this could be supported by adding it as a seventh pledge to the digital inclusion charter. None of us can ignore the fact that alternatives to online services are needed. The older people's commissioner found that offline households miss out on savings of up to £560 a year from shopping and paying bills online. That being the case, being offline is costing our constituents a fortune. According to the national survey for Wales, only 79 per cent of people buy goods or services online. We must act to ensure that services remain as affordable and accessible offline too.

Our colleague Rhun ap Iorwerth has highlighted the example of the bus pass renewal system. I would like to add to the list by including blue badge application forms. I have had many constituents unable to even access these without going online or using a computer, and they come into my office for us to help, but they should have that facility to be able to have that blue badge without having to go to those extremes. 

Undoubtedly, we need to help more people get online and do more to boost superfast availability. But we want a fair Wales too, so I strongly support this motion today and thank Rhun for starting this off in the first place. And I implore the Welsh Government to take steps such as have been suggested here today to ensure that, whilst keeping up with the digital age of technology, we will always ensure that traditional ways of accessing information, advice, support and services remain in place. Thanks. 

Thank you. Can I now call the Deputy Minister for Health and Social Services, Julie Morgan? 

Thank you very much, Deputy Presiding Officer, and I welcome the opportunity provided by today's very important debate to highlight how the Welsh Government is working across departments to try to ensure everyone can access the support they need, regardless of whether they use the internet. We recognise that more services, as Rhun said in introducing the debate, including vital public services, are moving online and that digitally excluded people are at risk of being left behind in society. As Mike Hedges said, not everyone has a smartphone and, of course, as has also been said, some people do like talking to people. People who do not use digital technology can miss out on vital services, job opportunities and improvements to their health. To be a fair Wales, as Janet Finch-Saunders said in her speech, we must ensure equality of access to public services for all. 

Older people do account for the largest demographic of people who are not online. However, there are other groups in society as well who've also been mentioned here today: disabled people were mentioned; David Rowlands mentioned homeless people. But, certainly, older people are the largest group. Twenty-two per cent of those aged over 50 and—a figure that's already been used—51 per cent of those aged over 75 are digitally excluded.

Following Cabinet's agreement last week, we will be launching a public consultation on our strategy for an ageing society in early spring. I think that many of the issues and many of the proposals that have come up in this debate today could be taken forward by that strategy for an ageing society. This strategy is Welsh Government's response to the wider implications of demographic change for future generations in Wales, but also for today's oldest people. The success of this strategy will rely on cross-Governmental action on a range of pressing issues, which will of course include digital inclusion.

Our vision is an age-friendly Wales that supports people of all ages to live and age well; a Wales where individuals can take responsibility for their own health and well-being, while feeling confident that support will be available and easily accessible if needed. We're already taking steps to achieve this vision. For example, the Welsh Government has made £8 million of grant funding available to the single advice fund this year. Funded services will reach deep into communities to engage with households that tend not to use traditional advice services. The services will also be delivered from venues at the heart of local communities, such as GP practices, so people will be able, through that money for advice services, to have face-to-face advice.

I'm very pleased that today's motion mentions the work of Transport for Wales to offer alternatives to online services for people renewing their bus passes. Although applicants are encouraged to use the online portal, as it is easier and faster, as many people have said here today, paper applications, as I think Mike Hedges said, are also available, and face-to-face support is also available. It's been reported that over 25,000 paper applications have been received. However, I am aware that many people did believe that they had to do it only online, and I certainly had a lot of people coming to my advice surgeries where we, as well as many others in this room, did help them to fill in the online applications. [Interruption.]

Thank you for taking the intervention. Thank you very much. Isn't the fact that you're reminding us again that doing it on paper is slower and more problematic again symptomatic of the message that's going out to people? Rather than telling people, 'Listen, we believe online works very well, but please feel free to use paper if you feel more comfortable in doing so.'

Yes, I think that is the message that should go, and is going out, really: that paper applications are available.

The other thing, of course, with all this—I think we've discussed the bus pass quite a bit—is that it has illustrated how popular the bus pass is and how important it is to older people. I know this issue of the bus pass applications has caused anxiety, and we certainly don't want that to be the case. Last year, we allocated £20,000 of additional funding to the older people's commissioner to support her work to increase pension credit take-up. This was actually done via paper. The commissioner produced a flyer that was sent out to older people in letters reminding them to renew their bus pass. I think it's very important that we take opportunities like that.

I'd like to share another example of how we've reached people who don't use the internet. Welsh Government recently launched a national awareness campaign to improve take-up of vital information and support about council tax entitlements. We work collaboratively with local authorities, the third sector, and MoneySavingExpert.com, the UK's biggest consumer website, to develop simple and consistent advice. We also placed posters in relevant settings, disseminated hard-copy leaflets to local authorities, and included printed slips with debt advice in council tax reminders, final notices and summonses. These models have been successful in reaching people who do not use the internet, and going forward we will learn from these successes.

However, it's very important to note—and I think the points have been made well here today—that there are many barriers to accessing online services, particularly for those on low incomes, older and disabled people. Barriers can include a lack of skills, confidence, access and mobility. I've also spoken with older people who are worried that they will be targeted by online scammers, and I know Suzy mentioned in her contribution about fraud online, and people do trust the postman more than the password, and I think that is a very important point. She also raised the issue of what they're doing in Canada and France, and I think it would be very beneficial for us to have a good look at what is actually happening in other countries on this issue. So, I think that again is something that the strategy for an ageing society could take on board. 

But although we recognise that not everyone is comfortable with the internet, we want to support people to make informed choices about how they participate safely in a world that is increasingly digital. So, we do want to encourage people to use the internet, because we know that the advantages are there, but we must provide for those people who don't want to use the internet or are not able to use the internet. So, we are taking efforts to encourage the use of the internet: Digital Communities Wales's digital heroes initiative has trained over 5,000 young volunteers to help older people in hospitals and care homes get online, and another innovative project is the Vale tablet loan scheme, which is allowing residents across the Vale of Glamorgan to borrow internet-enabled but secure iPads from local libraries almost as easily as they would a book.

For some, being digitally excluded is not a choice but a result of poor broadband coverage, which has also been mentioned here today. We want to make sure that everyone who wants to access the internet can do so. To date, Superfast Cymru has provided more than 733,000 premises across Wales with access to fast fibre broadband. We've also invested more than £200 million to step in when the market has failed to connect 95 per cent of properties in Wales, including many situated in rural areas.

I think the key principle of all this is that we should design public services around the needs of the end user, and typically this will mean a service that works digitally but also meets the needs of end users who are digitally excluded, and that is what the Welsh Government wants to do.

I'd like to end by addressing the proposal that Welsh Government talks to banks, businesses and other organisations to make sure that customers are not isolated if only online services are offered. I want to raise attention to our support for credit unions, which does enable some citizens in Wales to have access to affordable loans and savings, despite the withdrawal of large banks from Welsh high streets. Credit unions do ensure that people are able to discuss their requirements face to face and access products best suited to their needs.

It's also pleasing just to note—I can see that my time is going—that last year, the number of rural post offices in Wales increased from 619 to 636. Of course, local post offices can't replace banks, but they can offer their customers basic face-to-face banking services. Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. 

Thank you. Can I now call on Rhun ap Iorwerth to reply to the debate?

Thank you very much, Deputy Presiding Officer. I thank everyone who has taken part in this debate this afternoon, and there is agreement, isn't there, that there is an issue here that is genuinely something that needs to be taken seriously?

I like the point that Mike Hedges made: some people just like talking to someone. And it's true. We were in this Chamber yesterday talking about loneliness and isolation. Having that access to people is very, very important. Also, I said that I'm very, very comfortable with online banking. I still don't think I'd arrange a mortgage online. To me, that's something a little bit too far; I'd like to actually look into somebody's eyes to arrange a mortgage. So, there are times when you genuinely want to have that face-to-face contact.

Suzy Davies made a very good point that figures on the number of older people using online services are growing, and she suggested maybe that's because people who have been using online services for a long time are just reaching that age bracket. It's true. But there's a serious point in that—there will come a time when everybody, or the vast majority of people, will be relatively comfortable with using online services, because that's what they've always done—there will be something else then. Will I, when I'm 80, be comfortable using the hologram services or whatever will be available at that time? The technology and the context might change, but the issue and point will remain the same, in that you have to be considerate of people's different needs and the varying rates at which people are willing and able to move ahead with technological change.

David Rowlands's description of walking into a room and seeing everybody staring at a digital screen—. I thought you were describing the Senedd Chamber there for a second, David [Laughter.] But again, there's a comparison there, isn't there? This is a modern Chamber, this is a young Chamber, where we did put digital technology in, but we have to make sure that—. There are other people who think that perhaps we've gone too far in being able to be online in here.

Thanks also to Janet Finch-Saunders for her contribution. And to the Deputy Minister, I don't doubt at all that Welsh Government is sincere and agrees with the principles that we're putting forward here today. It's whether Government is going far enough in its actions.

Thank you for taking the intervention on the Transport for Wales free bus passes issue. I do take issue with your claim that enough face-to-face support was offered. It's because people felt there wasn't enough face-to-face support or alternative support to going online that they did come in their hundreds through my office door. Again, there is, at best, a lack of equality, or there has been a lack of equality between people's ability to apply for that bus pass online and to do it on paper.

There probably won't be an exercise quite that big that will test the system in the same way, but certainly I hope that the point has been made today that, be it putting pressure on third parties or on taking action yourselves, Government has to show—. And we will hold Government to account if you trip up again or if we think that things aren't moving forward quickly enough. But I'm confident that the point has been made strongly today by everybody that has taken part, and, again, I thank those who've supported this today.

Technology is racing forward. A huge amount of good comes from changing and developing technology, obviously, but there do come some risks too. One of those risks is that people are, from time to time, left behind. We can't let that happen. So, as I say, I trust our message has been heard here today and we'll keep a close eye on firmer Government action on this in months and years to come. Diolch yn fawr.

Thank you. The proposal is to agree the motion. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Okay, thank you. We defer voting on this item until voting time.

Voting deferred until voting time.